Flight Training at 15?

[Jay Honeck]

My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
of high school.

He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours in the right
seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary and me.) His first
dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he couldn't see over
the panel! He can do everything except land the plane -- and I'm fairly
certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our lives (or my plane)
to find out.

We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week we
sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on learning
to fly.

Our options are simple.

1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts in
the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he can
take the check-ride.

2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.

Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as teenagers, did it
work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
get the ticket?

Or should we strike while the iron is hot?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Bob Noel]

In article <3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Our options are simple.
>
> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts in
> the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he can
> take the check-ride.
>
> 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
>
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
> at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
> issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as teenagers, did it
> work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
> get the ticket?

I don't have kids, so...

While the objective isn't merely to solo, I find myself asking why not go
ahead and do a lot of training this summer? Why should your son wait next year
to experience solo flight?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72...
> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.
>
> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts
> in the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he
> can take the check-ride.

Being able to fly solo for a year is hardly being "stuck". :)

> 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
>
> Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and get the
> ticket?
>
> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

Which does he prefer?

--Gary

[Timmay]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article <3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72>,
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> > Our options are simple.
> >
> > 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts in
> > the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he can
> > take the check-ride.
> >
> > 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
> >
> > Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
> > at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
> > issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as teenagers, did it
> > work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
> > get the ticket?


I started ground school while I was 16 and in high school (our tiny
high school had the insight to host a ground school through the local
airport manager and have it count as credit, what a great idea), and
got my private about six months after I turned 17, so I wasn't quite as
far ahead of the curve as your son. But I'd say go for it, that way in
case any sort of hinderances arise (airplane availability became an
issue during my training, and I had to go to a neighboring town for a
while to rent) during the course, he'll have plenty of time to dodge
them.

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.
>
> He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours in the right
> seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary and me.) His first
> dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he couldn't see over
> the panel! He can do everything except land the plane -- and I'm fairly
> certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our lives (or my plane)
> to find out.
>
> We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week we
> sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on learning
> to fly.
>
> Our options are simple.
>
> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts in
> the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he can
> take the check-ride.
>
> 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
>
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
> at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
> issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as teenagers, did it
> work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
> get the ticket?
>
> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

I'd get him started. I realize it is unlikely, but teens interests
change fast and furiously and he may discover girls by next year and
flying may not be as important.

Matt

Matt

[Kyle Boatright]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
. ..
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72...
>> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior
>> year of high school.
>>
>> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts
>> in the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before
>> he can take the check-ride.
>
> Being able to fly solo for a year is hardly being "stuck". :)

Agreed! Beyond that, he can do all of the flying while you and Mary are
aboard, as long as you are willing to accept the responsibility as PIC.

That would probably mean at least one of the certificated pilots would need
to be comfortable doing everything (including landing) from the right seat.

KB

[Jim Macklin]

August 16 (1969) is my first son's birthday.
As to flight training options...
Training does not expire, although there is a requirement
for a certain amount of training during the 60 days prior to
a practical test.
Your son can fly gliders.
He can begin powered aircraft training and solo on his
birthday, when he is 16. He can then continue to build solo
and dual experience toward the private and instrument rating
on his 17th birthday. Then he can continue into commercial
training and build the experience so he can take the
commercial and add-on the multiengine rating when he turns
18.
He should also be looking at his college plans and high
school grades with math and business in mind. Whether he
wants to be an engineer or an airline pilot, those will
stand him well. He should also do some mechanic training,
either in an auto-shop in high school or maybe with some
homebuilders in the area.
He can work toward the ATP experience and can even take the
practical tests before he turns 23, but the certificate
won't be valid until his 23 birthday.
To keep his interest and assuming that paying for training
[experience] is not the issue...
aerobatics, seaplanes, multiengine, mountains, bush pilot,
skis, type ratings (jets -large aircraft), and of course CFI
ratings. He can then work his way through college as a
flight instructor which is a better career move than
flipping burgers (even if the pay is less).



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72...
| My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting
his Junior year
| of high school.
|
| He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours
in the right
| seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary
and me.) His first
| dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he
couldn't see over
| the panel! He can do everything except land the plane --
and I'm fairly
| certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our
lives (or my plane)
| to find out.
|
| We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real".
So, last week we
| sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his
options on learning
| to fly.
|
| Our options are simple.
|
| 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo
before school starts in
| the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire
year before he can
| take the check-ride.
|
| 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
|
| Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground
looking up enviously
| at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of
reference on this
| issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as
teenagers, did it
| work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at
it full-steam and
| get the ticket?
|
| Or should we strike while the iron is hot?
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
|

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts
> in the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he
> can take the check-ride.

So what? He can still fly the Cherokee with a parent in the right seat
until he's old enough. By then he should be *really* ready.

> Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and get the
> ticket?

Nah.

> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

Always.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Robert M. Gary]

Prior to the other day I probably would have said to go ahead and start
him. I was at a safety semenar the other day and several people had had
their teenagers start flying at your son's age. Both their sons ended
up not becoming pilots (one had been a CAP cadet and involved in
aviation his whole life).
As the father of two pre-teen boys and a BSA leader I understand that
it takes boys a lot of energy to ramp up to a large challenge like
learning to fly. One thing I've found for sure is that boys don't like
to ramp up twice. Another thing is that kids today are very, very busy
with school, outside activities, sports, etc. While most of us were
just working 9-5 while we learned to fly most kids today are busy from
6am-9pm with activities.
So, all that said, the experience of those at this semenar was that
their boys ramped up and achieved their solo, then got busy with other
stuff (since they had a year to get their private) and then had an
impossible time re-engaging when it was time to take a checkride.
Both my boys will be in your son's situation in a few years and I'll
wait until they're old enough to go right through and get their
private.

-Robert, CFI

Jay Honeck wrote:
> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.
>
> He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours in the right
> seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary and me.) His first
> dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he couldn't see over
> the panel! He can do everything except land the plane -- and I'm fairly
> certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our lives (or my plane)
> to find out.
"

[Jim Macklin]

You don't "ramp up" for solo or even the private, you ramp
up for a career in stages. The goal is always coming and it
isn't just the solo, or even the private, but the CFI and
ATP experience level.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| Prior to the other day I probably would have said to go
ahead and start
| him. I was at a safety semenar the other day and several
people had had
| their teenagers start flying at your son's age. Both their
sons ended
| up not becoming pilots (one had been a CAP cadet and
involved in
| aviation his whole life).
| As the father of two pre-teen boys and a BSA leader I
understand that
| it takes boys a lot of energy to ramp up to a large
challenge like
| learning to fly. One thing I've found for sure is that
boys don't like
| to ramp up twice. Another thing is that kids today are
very, very busy
| with school, outside activities, sports, etc. While most
of us were
| just working 9-5 while we learned to fly most kids today
are busy from
| 6am-9pm with activities.
| So, all that said, the experience of those at this semenar
was that
| their boys ramped up and achieved their solo, then got
busy with other
| stuff (since they had a year to get their private) and
then had an
| impossible time re-engaging when it was time to take a
checkride.
| Both my boys will be in your son's situation in a few
years and I'll
| wait until they're old enough to go right through and get
their
| private.
|
| -Robert, CFI
|
| Jay Honeck wrote:
| > My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and
starting his Junior year
| > of high school.
| >
| > He's been flying since he can remember, and has many
hours in the right
| > seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary
and me.) His first
| > dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because
he couldn't see over
| > the panel! He can do everything except land the
plane -- and I'm fairly
| > certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our
lives (or my plane)
| > to find out.
| "
|

[Ronald Gardner]

Jay,

I started at about 15, but money (even at $9/hr) kept it slow and I did not have
the background your son has. Then came the Air Force and I continued at Chanute
and finally did the check ride at 21 in Walnut Creek Ca. I think if I had the
opportunity to solo I would have wanted to even if it meant a year to the check
ride. At that age all I wanted to do was to be in the air, carrying a passenger
and having my ticket was just an added benefit.

I know a you kid who's dad was a CFI and an airline pilot, with the hours
similar to your sons he is now 18 and has finished his instrument and I think
his commercial. Best to keep them interested at this age they can get allot
done. Good Luck.

Ron Gardner

Jay Honeck wrote:

> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.
>
> He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours in the right
> seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary and me.) His first
> dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he couldn't see over
> the panel! He can do everything except land the plane -- and I'm fairly
> certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our lives (or my plane)
> to find out.
>
> We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week we
> sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on learning
> to fly.
>
> Our options are simple.
>
> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts in
> the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he can
> take the check-ride.
>
> 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
>
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
> at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
> issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as teenagers, did it
> work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
> get the ticket?
>
> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Eduardo K.]

In article >,
Kyle Boatright > wrote:
>
>That would probably mean at least one of the certificated pilots would need
>to be comfortable doing everything (including landing) from the right seat.
>

A good way to get Jay to practice for the CFI ticket :)



--
Eduardo K. | Darwin pone las reglas.
http://www.carfun.cl | Murphy, la oportunidad.
http://e.nn.cl |
| Yo.

[Nathan Young]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:44:47 GMT, "Jay Honeck"
> wrote:

>Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
>get the ticket?
>
>Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

If he wants to learn now, then do it. He can always continue flying
with you for the next 2 years until he gets his license.

[Martin Hotze]

On Sun, 11 Jun 2006 12:44:47 GMT, Jay Honeck wrote:

>Should my son wait a year, so he can go at it full-steam and
>get the ticket?

questions is: what does your son _really_ want? Or do you don't care?
in your whole posting I can only read we (I suppose meaning Mary and you)
and never him or he.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Jack Allison]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
> at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
> issue.

Sorry man...I'm in the same boat as you Jay. PPL at age 40. Wished I'd
started sooner but very glad I didn't wait any longer.


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72...
> [...]
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up
> enviously at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference
> on this issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as
> teenagers, did it work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go
> at it full-steam and get the ticket?
>
> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

Unlike Martin, I interpret "we" as "Jay and son". I may or may not have
misunderstood. :)

And yes, sorry...I didn't learn to fly until adulthood, so you didn't really
ask me. But this is my reply anyway.

Anyway, as far as any of this goes, I'd agree that the real question is what
he wants to do. Getting to fly an airplane solo for a year before taking a
checkride isn't going to hurt him. If he's really all that eager to take a
checkride, the glider certificate is right there ready and waiting for him.
He could even take a friend up with that.

I wouldn't worry at all about how the timing might affect his enthusiasm.
It's more important that he be able to follow what he wants to do. If
training now turns into a bust because he gets distracted by other things
before he can take the checkride, so be it. You can't say that he wouldn't
have also been distracted before even getting around to the training, had he
just waited for the whole thing.

As a teenager, his job is (among other things) to explore different
possibilities and get an idea of what he wants to do with his life. IMHO,
this necessarily requires following wherever his current interests lead him,
without worrying too much about whether he can keep up his interest. It's
no longer your job to try to mold him (assuming it ever was)...he's too old
for you to be able to decide for him what he'll like or not like. Just let
him have his experiences, and he can figure it out on his own.

Pete

[Michael]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week we
> sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on learning
> to fly.

Was he there at the meeting? He should have been. Does he really want
to do this? Or is this something you and Mary want?

Let me tell you a story. Once I went with a friend of mine to pich up
a very nice glider he picked up for a very reasonable price (It was a
Ka-8b, and he paid $5K for it, in flying condition and with a fresh
annual). Only problem was, it had sat on its trailer in a hangar for
almost five years. There was a reason it sat there.

A guy who was really into flying (including gliders) bought it for his
15 year old son. Now, when I was 15, I would have been willing to kill
someone to get my father to buy me a flying maching of any description
whatsoever. But this kid just didn't much care about flying. He never
did fly it. It sat, and it sat, and in the end his father sold it to
my friend, when it became obvious that his son wasn't going to fly it.

In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy?
But it's true. I think if your son really wanted to fly, you would
already know what to do. He could have soloed a glider at 14, and he
can get a glider certificate at 16. He can solo at a powered airplane
at 16, fly for year doing solo flights and training, and take his
private and instrument back to back. There are lots of options. But
the real question is, what does he want? Unless he really has a desire
to fly, it won't matter in the long run what you do - he won't fly.
And if he does have a desire, he'll let you know in no uncertain terms.

I know a kid who chose having a glider over having a car at 16. Would
your kid make that choice?

Michael

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Jack Allison wrote:
>> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up enviously
>> at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference on this
>> issue.
>
> Sorry man...I'm in the same boat as you Jay. PPL at age 40. Wished I'd
> started sooner but very glad I didn't wait any longer.


I grew up around airplanes as my father flew large aircraft for the USAF.
However, when he retired he never pursued GA. I finally figured no tickie, no
washie as far as lessons went and paid my own way when I was 24.

While I would have LOVED to have learned how to fly at 15 (that's the age I was
when I first started sneaking my father's car out in the middle of the night), I
have to question what the hurry is? And would you be comfortable letting a kid
fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a way to insure it?
It's not the technical skills I would question but rather the maturity.

I know I didn't have it at that age. Even when I was in my late 20s I still was
prone to buzzing. I finally got that out of my system but I suspect it would
take any kid a long time to do the same... I don't care how mature he seems to
be.

And if he likes aircraft, he's still gonna like them when he's older. I'm 52
and I still don't turn down plane rides. Any excuse will do.

Suggestion: let him see how he does with a driver's license first. If he
handles that responsibility well, then escalate. You might hold it out as a
reward for some future acheivement (3.0 average in college?). But don't just
GIVE it to him if you want him to really value it. Make him earn it.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Jack Allison]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:

> I grew up around airplanes as my father flew large aircraft for the USAF.
> However, when he retired he never pursued GA.
My Dad was a USAF fighter pilot. One thing he did upon retirement,
however, was to start flying at the nearby Navy base aero club. That
meant I got to ride in the back when he flew as a safety pilot or,
better yet, in the right seat when he'd cruise around the San Francisco
bay area. I got to fly the traffic pattern at a local airport and
pretty much take the plane down to 50 AGL or so while Dad worked the
throttle. Soon it was off to college and then fast forward another 20+
years before I finally decided it was time to get my PPL.

> While I would have LOVED to have learned how to fly at 15 (that's the age I was
> when I first started sneaking my father's car out in the middle of the night), I
> have to question what the hurry is? And would you be comfortable letting a kid
> fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a way to insure it?
> It's not the technical skills I would question but rather the maturity.

A good point to consider.

> And if he likes aircraft, he's still gonna like them when he's older. I'm 52
> and I still don't turn down plane rides. Any excuse will do.

And I thought it was just me :-)


--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane
Arrow N2104T

"When once you have tasted flight, you will forever walk the Earth
with your eyes turned skyward, for there you have been, and there
you will always long to return"
- Leonardo Da Vinci

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Jay Honeck]

> While the objective isn't merely to solo, I find myself asking why not go
> ahead and do a lot of training this summer? Why should your son wait next
> year
> to experience solo flight?

How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in 19xx" --
but never got their ticket?

I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get "stuck"
in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> You don't "ramp up" for solo or even the private, you ramp
> up for a career in stages. The goal is always coming and it
> isn't just the solo, or even the private, but the CFI and
> ATP experience level.

That's a good point, Jim, but at 15 I don't think Joe's ready to commit to a
career in aviation.

After watching what has happened to the airlines, I'm not really all that
enthused about encouraging him in that direction, either. Although, of
course, in the next few years a HUGE chunk of the "baby boom" generation
will be retiring, and opening up a bunch of left seats...

At this point, I just want him to get his Private.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I started at about 15, but money (even at $9/hr) kept it slow and I did
> not have
> the background your son has. Then came the Air Force and I continued at
> Chanute

Hey, we fly to Chanute (Rantoul, IL) as often as possible, which usually
works out to once per year. They've got a very good aviation museum on the
site of the old air base that is staffed by a bunch of former base
personnel.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> While I would have LOVED to have learned how to fly at 15 (that's the age
> I was when I first started sneaking my father's car out in the middle of
> the night), I have to question what the hurry is? And would you be
> comfortable letting a kid fly off in your precious airplane IF you could
> even find a way to insure it? It's not the technical skills I would
> question but rather the maturity.

Agree. He's a good kid, but at 16 he's not always thinking clearly.

I like the idea of seeing how he does with his driver's license. He's an
excellent driver, thus far (how could anyone with 3 billion hours of PS2 and
XBox time NOT be?), but (as you say) it's the judgment that is critical.

We've talked it over, and he's decided to wait until Summer '07 to start his
"real" flight training, just so he can go straight through till his
check-ride. I think it's the best decision he can make at this time -- I
just hope his interest doesn't wane.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[BTIZ]

There has got to be a glider group near by, go to www.ssa.org and search the
"Where to Fly" section.
He can solo now have a glider rating long before he can in power.

BT

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:5w0jg.27259$No1.21289@attbi_s71...
>> While the objective isn't merely to solo, I find myself asking why not go
>> ahead and do a lot of training this summer? Why should your son wait
>> next year
>> to experience solo flight?
>
> How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in 19xx" --
> but never got their ticket?
>
> I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get
> "stuck" in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> I wouldn't worry at all about how the timing might affect his enthusiasm.
> It's more important that he be able to follow what he wants to do. If
> training now turns into a bust because he gets distracted by other things
> before he can take the checkride, so be it.

Philosophically, I agree. However, finances must also come into play here.
Joe knows that we will help him with flight training expenses. He also
knows that he must kick in a fair share of the cost.

Mary and I are firm believers in training as fast and as hard as you can, in
order to minimize the time spent. We both treated flight training like
just another semester of college, flying Mon/Wed/Fri, and studying Tue/Thu.
By doing so, we kept the cost of flight training to a minimum, and finished
up in about four months.

If he can't do that (due to his age), he will end up spending a great deal
more money (both his and ours) to get his ticket. With college looming on
the horizon (and a daughter coming up not far behind), stretching out his
flight training is not a good option, financially.

But, as you may have read in another part of this thread, Joe has already
decided to wait another year before he starts his "real" training. In the
meantime, he will continue to learn all of our bad habits by flying
"unofficially"...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

>> We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week
>> we
>> sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on
>> learning
>> to fly.
>
> Was he there at the meeting? He should have been. Does he really want
> to do this? Or is this something you and Mary want?

"We" was Joe and me, with Mary joining us mid-meeting. We met the new head
of the flight school, and (of course) Joe already knows 'most everyone at
the airport.

> In a world full of people, only some want to fly. Isn't that crazy?
> But it's true. I think if your son really wanted to fly, you would
> already know what to do. He could have soloed a glider at 14

Sadly, there is no glider training available in Iowa City. He has flown a
glider several times in CAP, but we're in no position (geographically) to
get him soloed in a glider.

> I know a kid who chose having a glider over having a car at 16. Would
> your kid make that choice?

At 16, we wouldn't let him own either one -- and he knows it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> There has got to be a glider group near by, go to www.ssa.org and search
> the "Where to Fly" section.
> He can solo now have a glider rating long before he can in power.

The nearest glider ops are in Muscatine (MUT) -- about a 45 minute
round-trip (by air), and about a 2 hour round trip by car. And their "ops"
are FAR from consistent.

It's a shame -- he really enjoyed flying the CAP gliders.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Macklin]

Set high goals, the private is just one step. Pilot ratings
are useful for many career paths, engineers, doctors,
lawyers, race car drivers, ranchers, school teachers. The
goal for a teen is easy because you have time, it seems lie
a lot of time, but it isn't.
He doesn't have to commit to an aviation career, but he can
begin and there are plenty of "new" experiences to keep the
spirit alive. After solo, there are many tasks required to
get the private, cross-country, instrument training doesn't
have to wait for the private. Aerobatics, seaplanes, there
are many training roots in the tree of knowledge.

A year between solo at 16 and a certificate at 17 isn't a
long time and there is plenty to do that will carry forward.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

--
The people think the Constitution protects their rights;
But government sees it as an obstacle to be overcome.
some support
http://www.usdoj.gov/olc/secondamendment2.htm
See http://www.fija.org/ more about your rights and duties.


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:bB0jg.27265$No1.24393@attbi_s71...
|> You don't "ramp up" for solo or even the private, you
ramp
| > up for a career in stages. The goal is always coming
and it
| > isn't just the solo, or even the private, but the CFI
and
| > ATP experience level.
|
| That's a good point, Jim, but at 15 I don't think Joe's
ready to commit to a
| career in aviation.
|
| After watching what has happened to the airlines, I'm not
really all that
| enthused about encouraging him in that direction, either.
Although, of
| course, in the next few years a HUGE chunk of the "baby
boom" generation
| will be retiring, and opening up a bunch of left seats...
|
| At this point, I just want him to get his Private.
| --
| Jay Honeck
| Iowa City, IA
| Pathfinder N56993
| www.AlexisParkInn.com
| "Your Aviation Destination"
|
|

[Stefan]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN schrieb:

> And would you be comfortable letting a kid
> fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a way to insure it?

Interesting that you seem more concerned about your precious plane than
about your kids.

> Suggestion: let him see how he does with a driver's license first. If he
> handles that responsibility well, then escalate.

In e.g. Germany, kids can start to fly gliders at 14, while they must
wait until 18 to drive a car. I hear that the clubs make very good
experiences letting 14 year old kids solo in pretty precious ASK21 gliders.

Stean

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:5w0jg.27259$No1.21289@attbi_s71...
> How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in 19xx" --
> but never got their ticket?
>
> I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get
> "stuck" in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.

Get over it. There's nothing wrong with him deciding he doesn't want to
pursue aviation, and it's pointless for you to attempt to arrange things to
"ensure" that he does.

He is his own person, and he needs to be allowed succeed, fail, or lose
interest as he likes. It's highly unlikely that the exact sequence of his
flight training will affect his interest, but even if it does, it's not your
job to take advantage of that. If anything, it's a bit creepy to be that
interested in forcing your kid onto a certain path.

Pete

[Morgans]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> We've talked it over, and he's decided to wait until Summer '07 to start
> his "real" flight training, just so he can go straight through till his
> check-ride. I think it's the best decision he can make at this time -- I
> just hope his interest doesn't wane.

I think that is a good choice. In the meantime, you can always let him get
in some right seat time. Fly some, navigate, even a bit of radio time.

Things like that keep the newness, and excitement in flying, in a kid that
age, the newness is what you need to keep shooting for. He has seen it, now
teach him how to have the responsibility for doing it.

When go, no-go situations come up, ask him what he would do, and how he came
to that decision. Then explain what you would do, and how you came to that
decision. That will teach decision making, and develop the judgment skills,
that so many kids his age are lacking.

How to think for yourself is the hardest of all skills to teach. I think
you can do it, though.
--
Jim in NC

[Newps]

Peter Duniho wrote:

> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> news:5w0jg.27259$No1.21289@attbi_s71...
>
>>How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in 19xx" --
>>but never got their ticket?
>>
>>I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get
>>"stuck" in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.
>
>
> Get over it. There's nothing wrong with him deciding he doesn't want to
> pursue aviation, and it's pointless for you to attempt to arrange things to
> "ensure" that he does.

You can't ensure that he does. He will finish because he wants to. A
friend of mine bought a 150 for his high school kid to learn to fly in.
The kid got his private but basically showed no interest in flying.
The kid joined the Air Force and was stationed at the AFB in Dover, DE.
My friend flew the plane out there so the kid could fly anytime he
wanted for the price of gas. It's been just over a year since the plane
was delivered to him. He never once untied it from the ramp. Since he
just got deployed to Iraq for a while another friend went over there to
bring it back. The kid has no interest in flying and dad is the only
one who can't see it because he wants it so bad.
My oldest is going to be a junior in high school next fall and
already knows he wants to go to UND to be an airline pilot. We have all
the brochures and will no doubt be applying when a junior would normally
apply. I show him all the negative articles I can find about how being
an airline pilot ain't like it used to be, but he is determined. My
kids have known since day one that they will be going to college.
Graduating from high school merely means you will be changing schools.
So once there they can do what they want.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Stefan wrote:
>> And would you be comfortable letting a kid
>> fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a way to insure it?
>
> Interesting that you seem more concerned about your precious plane than
> about your kids.




Well, you can always have more kids. Airplanes are expensive.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Jim Burns]

I think that you've got a unique situation. Your son is able to see first
hand the doors that aviation can open for people. You and your family have
jumped into GA with both feet and Joe is exposed to the fruits of that labor
each and every day. For Joe, it has become common to jump in the airplane
and travel hundreds of miles to visit people and things that otherwise would
have never been seen. With this in mind, remember that each pilot is an
individual.

Examine and explore Joe's motivation for not just "learning to fly" but his
motivation for becoming a pilot and using the privileges, it may be
different from the normal "because it's cool" and it may not be "because Mom
and Dad do". No doubt his motivations will change as he matures, but long
term goals can be kept in mind. A solid basis in practical aviation will be
worth it's weight in gold as he moves on to other endeavors.

In many ways I agree with Jim ME. Advanced ratings and the knowledge gained
obtaining them will help him in what ever career he chooses, there are still
many top paying jobs in aviation, some even as pilots. Corporate pilots
that have a strong business background will always be in high demand. The
decision making skills gained in the cockpit and in the flight planning room
will be invaluable later in his life. Joe has many things going for him that
put him in a position to take full advantage of what aviation has to offer.
He has a wonderful basis to build upon. He has two supportive parents that
can evaluate, critique, and encourage. (oh, they also own an airplane).

I'd start when ever he is comfortable.

Jim
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
news:3fUig.26692$1i1.20490@attbi_s72...
> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.
>
> He's been flying since he can remember, and has many hours in the right
> seat. (He's got over 1500 hours as a passenger with Mary and me.) His
> first dozen or so hours behind the yoke were "IFR" -- because he couldn't
> see over the panel! He can do everything except land the plane -- and
> I'm fairly certain he could do that, but I'm not about to risk our lives
> (or my plane) to find out.
>
> We both agree that he's ready to learn to fly "for real". So, last week
> we sat down with a local flight instructor to check out his options on
> learning to fly.
>
> Our options are simple.
>
> 1. He can take flight training this summer, and solo before school starts
> in the fall. Unfortunately, he is then stuck for an entire year before he
> can take the check-ride.
>
> 2. He can hold off until next summer, 2007.
>
> Prior to age 37, I could only walk around on the ground looking up
> enviously at aircraft flying overhead -- so I have no frame of reference
> on this issue. For those of you who were lucky enough to train as
> teenagers, did it work for you? Should my son wait a year, so he can go
> at it full-steam and get the ticket?
>
> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Robert M. Gary]

But having to wait a year between solo and private is a lot of down
time for someone who probably has an enormous number of non-aviation
activities and a very short attention span (pretty much describes all
of us at 15). It might be best to wait until he is old enough to pursue
this activities at his natural pase and not get stopped all the time by
age requirements.

-Robert


Jim Macklin wrote:
> You don't "ramp up" for solo or even the private, you ramp
> up for a career in stages. The goal is always coming and it
> isn't just the solo, or even the private, but the CFI and
> ATP experience level.

[Stefan]

Jay Honeck schrieb:

> the horizon (and a daughter coming up not far behind), stretching out his
> flight training is not a good option, financially.

There are many commercial glider operations which I'm sure would be glad
to accept him for a three week (or so) full time arrangement during
holidays (http://www.ssa org). This would give him a new perspective to
flying and a license. Besides, it's my strong believe that starting in
gliders makes you a better stick and rudder pilot, but this is just my
opinion.

You'd run the risk, though, that he'll loose interest in powered flight
and decides to stay with gliders.

Stefan

[Reid & Julie Baldwin]

I started flying lessons at age 16 and finished my private at 17. It took me
the full year. I only flew about one per week and though about it most of
the time. That worked well for me. I took my checkride with just barely 40
hours (and passsed). Spreading out the training may end up requiring more
hours but that doesn't seem like a bad thing to me. If there is enough money
for 60 hours in a year, is it better to get the license in 40 hours in the
first two months and then spread the next 20 over the remaining 10 months. I
would rather spread the 60 more evenly over the full year, even if the
license comes at the end.

I was the first person in my family to take an interest in flying. My
brother and I had each saved up enough for a car by the time we were 16. He
bought a car. I got my private and drove the family car. The money even let
me fly a few hours after my license before it ran out.

I gave up flying for 12 years starting in college. I stopped because I
didn't have enough money. I didn't start again until I felt I had enough
income to sustain it. (My wife doesn't necessarily agree that we have enough
income for flying, but that is a difference of priorities.) Something
similar is likely to happen with your son at some point.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.

Fly now!

[Denny]

Absolutely agree, Ron... Fly now and get him soloed at 16... Even if
he drops it right there it is knowledge that will help him life long...

Local girl I watched was one of those skinny brat kids who grew up
flying with dad in his Cessna 140... She has a BS in science from a
university where she went through the aeronautical program...Now she is
a gorgeous blonde in sunglasses that has all the guys on the field
drooling as they watch her walk across the ramp, casually climb into a
KingAir, and fly off with a load of charter passengers... She is also
flying right seat in Falcons... She flies left seat freight in D-18
beech's... Has solo time in DC-3's... Is ASMEL CFII rated... Got her
water rating in a J3 on floats... Is faculty at the same university
she attended where she does the bulk of the multiengine instrument
instruction... If I were a young man I would be moving heaven and
earth to have her as my girlfriend...

denny

[Tri-Pacer]

"> How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in
19xx" --
> but never got their ticket?
>
> I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get
> "stuck" in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.


I started lessons at 15, soloed at 16---missed my birthday by 4 days because
of IFR WX---took my checkride as soon as I turned 17.
That was 1955 and I'm still at it.

My father helped me through solo and I came up with the rest---line
boy---mechanics helper---etc.

If he has the interest and motivation go for it. Lucky kid---a family plane
to fly---a dad to help----

Cheers:

Paul
N1431A

[Jim Macklin]

A normal private pilot student will fly 45 or more hours
getting to the check-ride. But the training can be expanded
to include the instrument rating training and be expanded
with glider and seaplane if desired. It isn't as if a
student will run out of new things to do.

--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
| But having to wait a year between solo and private is a
lot of down
| time for someone who probably has an enormous number of
non-aviation
| activities and a very short attention span (pretty much
describes all
| of us at 15). It might be best to wait until he is old
enough to pursue
| this activities at his natural pase and not get stopped
all the time by
| age requirements.
|
| -Robert
|
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > You don't "ramp up" for solo or even the private, you
ramp
| > up for a career in stages. The goal is always coming
and it
| > isn't just the solo, or even the private, but the CFI
and
| > ATP experience level.
|

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-06-11, Jay Honeck > wrote:
> How many guys do you know that tell you "I soloed a plane back in 19xx" --
> but never got their ticket?
>
> I have met a whole bunch of them. I don't want my son to solo, get "stuck"
> in a rut waiting, and then never finish up.

You face as much of a risk of him getting "stuck" in a rut waiting, and
then never start at all. If he solos then goes no further, well, perhaps
he never had the flame burning for aviation at all. If he does have the
passion for it, he'll finish it up.

The vast majority of the soloed but never finished up crowd discovered
they didn't really have the passion for it after all - otherwise they
would have finished up. If it was because they didn't have the resources
(time, money etc.) then surely it's better to have tasted solo flight and
lost, rather than never flown solo at all?

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-06-11, Mortimer Schnerd, RN > wrote:
> have to question what the hurry is? And would you be comfortable letting
> a kid fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a
> way to insure it?

Insurance in aircraft, from what I've seen, does not depend on age but
hours and ratings. In any case, if you can't be comfortable letting your
son fly off in your airplane, how can you be comfortable letting him fly
any plane? If he's prone to stupid pilot tricks you'll be mourning the
loss of him not the plane so it's irrelevant which plane he augers in
with.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-06-12, Stefan > wrote:
> You'd run the risk, though, that he'll loose interest in powered flight
> and decides to stay with gliders.

I dunno, powered flight means you can fly the tow plane too!

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> Insurance in aircraft, from what I've seen, does not depend on age but
> hours and ratings. In any case, if you can't be comfortable letting your
> son fly off in your airplane, how can you be comfortable letting him fly
> any plane? If he's prone to stupid pilot tricks you'll be mourning the
> loss of him not the plane so it's irrelevant which plane he augers in
> with.


If I didn't say it explicitly, that's what I was implying. I can see letting
him fly the family plane on trips with the family. I can't see letting him out
of my sight solo in any aircraft; particularly one occupied by one or more of
his frriends.

One other thought is that it gives him an unrealistic view of flying as if
everyone had a divine right to it. Flying is expensive; most pilots can barely
afford to fly at all (like me, I'm semiretired). What happens to him when he
hits the real world away from Mommy and Daddy and the family Cherokee? I would
imagine damned few of the staff at McDonalds are instrument rated. Sadly, CEO
jobs are relatively scarce. One very important lesson taught to me by my father
is that just because the family has money doesn't mean *I* do.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> My son is 15. He'll be turning 16 in August, and starting his Junior year
> of high school.

> Or should we strike while the iron is hot?

If he has the interest now, feed that interest NOW!
If you hold him back for a year, he will find something
else to occupy himself... and it will be unlikely to be
aviation.

Gliders or airplanes? Private power first, then private glider.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Margy Natalie]

Dylan Smith wrote:
> On 2006-06-11, Mortimer Schnerd, RN > wrote:
>
>>have to question what the hurry is? And would you be comfortable letting
>>a kid fly off in your precious airplane IF you could even find a
>>way to insure it?
>
>
> Insurance in aircraft, from what I've seen, does not depend on age but
> hours and ratings. In any case, if you can't be comfortable letting your
> son fly off in your airplane, how can you be comfortable letting him fly
> any plane? If he's prone to stupid pilot tricks you'll be mourning the
> loss of him not the plane so it's irrelevant which plane he augers in
> with.
>
I know a guy who at 16 his parents would let him take a plane anywhere,
but he couldn't have the car on Saturday night. Aviation TEACHES good
decision making.

Margy