O/A welding question: tip size

[mhorowit]

I'm having a welding problem. I'm using an OxyAcy rig. I'm
running 2 psi for each gas thru a .025 diameter tip. I find that in
order to weld join two pieces of .035 tubing with this tip, I must
adjust the flame until it's no larger than 3/16" long. Otherwise
I'm heating up too much of an area and burning away the outer sleeve
(in the case of a splice using an inner sleeve). A flame that small is
very difficult to adjust.

I'm puzzled because the charts I'm looking at show a tip of this
size is appropriate for this size work.

Can you suggest what might be my problem? - Regards, Mike

[Morgans]

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm having a welding problem. I'm using an OxyAcy rig. I'm
> running 2 psi for each gas thru a .025 diameter tip. I find that in
> order to weld join two pieces of .035 tubing with this tip, I must
> adjust the flame until it's no larger than 3/16" long. Otherwise
> I'm heating up too much of an area and burning away the outer sleeve
> (in the case of a splice using an inner sleeve). A flame that small is
> very difficult to adjust.
>
> I'm puzzled because the charts I'm looking at show a tip of this
> size is appropriate for this size work.
>
> Can you suggest what might be my problem? - Regards, Mike

too much oxygen
--
Jim in NC
>

[mhorowit]

Morgans wrote:
>
> too much oxygen
> --
> Jim in NC
> >

Hello Jim - If I simply reduce the O2 at the handle, I'll get a
carburizing flame, right? I need a neutralized flame - MIke

[Morgans]

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Morgans wrote:
>>
>> too much oxygen
>> --
>> Jim in NC
>> >
>
> Hello Jim - If I simply reduce the O2 at the handle, I'll get a
> carburizing flame, right? I need a neutralized flame - MIke

This group has had many good descriptions of how to get the proper flame;
you might want to look it up. Yes, it should be neutral.

To give the short version, the inner flame should have a soft, feathered
edge, not a sharp, defined edge, and it should be a "quiet" flame.

If it makes soot, there is not enough O. If it burns the metal, (sparkles)
there is too much O.

You might need to move faster, take the flame further from the work, get the
filler metal in there faster, so it will get to the business of melting, or
even take the flame away for a second, every few seconds.
--
Jim in NC

[mhorowit]

Morgans wrote:
> "mhorowit" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > Morgans wrote:
> >>
> >> too much oxygen
> >> --
> >> Jim in NC
> >> >
> >
> > Hello Jim - If I simply reduce the O2 at the handle, I'll get a
> > carburizing flame, right? I need a neutralized flame - MIke
>
> This group has had many good descriptions of how to get the proper flame;
> you might want to look it up. Yes, it should be neutral.
>
> To give the short version, the inner flame should have a soft, feathered
> edge, not a sharp, defined edge, and it should be a "quiet" flame.
>
> If it makes soot, there is not enough O. If it burns the metal, (sparkles)
> there is too much O.
>
> You might need to move faster, take the flame further from the work, get the
> filler metal in there faster, so it will get to the business of melting, or
> even take the flame away for a second, every few seconds.
> --
> Jim in NC


Jim - I know how to make a neutral flame. I was just trying to figure
how reducing O2 would help since if that's all I did, the flame would
no longer be neutral. So I guess I need to follow your last para.
Thanks, Mike

[Jarhead]

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Morgans wrote:
| > "mhorowit" > wrote in message
| > ups.com...
| > >
| > > Morgans wrote:
| > >>
| > >> too much oxygen
| > >> --
| > >> Jim in NC
| > >> >
| > >
| > > Hello Jim - If I simply reduce the O2 at the handle, I'll get a
| > > carburizing flame, right? I need a neutralized flame - MIke
| >
| > This group has had many good descriptions of how to get the proper
flame;
| > you might want to look it up. Yes, it should be neutral.
| >
| > To give the short version, the inner flame should have a soft,
feathered
| > edge, not a sharp, defined edge, and it should be a "quiet" flame.
| >
| > If it makes soot, there is not enough O. If it burns the metal,
(sparkles)
| > there is too much O.
| >
| > You might need to move faster, take the flame further from the work,
get the
| > filler metal in there faster, so it will get to the business of
melting, or
| > even take the flame away for a second, every few seconds.
| > --
| > Jim in NC
|
|
| Jim - I know how to make a neutral flame. I was just trying to figure
| how reducing O2 would help since if that's all I did, the flame would
| no longer be neutral. So I guess I need to follow your last para.
| Thanks, Mike
|

Just curious! Are you using the J-57 aircraft torch?

--
Jarhead




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[mhorowit]

Jarhead wrote:
> >
> Just curious! Are you using the J-57 aircraft torch?
>
> --
> Jarhead
>
>
>
>
Nope - an old lightweight Smith handle with MW 100 series tips.
I've discovered that the only standard description across tips is the
orifice opening, so that's why I'm not using tip names. - MIke

[cavelamb]

mhorowit wrote:

> Jarhead wrote:
>
>>Just curious! Are you using the J-57 aircraft torch?
>>
>>--
>>Jarhead
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
> Nope - an old lightweight Smith handle with MW 100 series tips.
> I've discovered that the only standard description across tips is the
> orifice opening, so that's why I'm not using tip names. - MIke
>

Might I ask if there is a reason for holding 2 psi?

That seems a tad low...

[Morgans]

"cavelamb" > wrote

> Might I ask if there is a reason for holding 2 psi?
>
> That seems a tad low...

I was wondering the same thing. I usually go with around 32 Oxy, and 7
Acet. I am surprised he could get a neutral flame with those settings, but
he claims to know what a neutral flame is, and that he is getting it. I
wonder if his gauges are off...
--
Jim in NC

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I'm having a welding problem. I'm using an OxyAcy rig. I'm
> running 2 psi for each gas thru a .025 diameter tip. I find that in
> order to weld join two pieces of .035 tubing with this tip, I must
> adjust the flame until it's no larger than 3/16" long. Otherwise
> I'm heating up too much of an area and burning away the outer sleeve
> (in the case of a splice using an inner sleeve). A flame that small is
> very difficult to adjust.
>
> I'm puzzled because the charts I'm looking at show a tip of this
> size is appropriate for this size work.
>
> Can you suggest what might be my problem? - Regards, Mike
>

Heat needs to be mostly directed towards the inner sleeve and away from the
easy to burn exposed edge. Using a larger diameter welding rod to shield the
exposed edge can help. But it sounds like, in spite of what your chart says,
you need to use a smaller tip. Just be sure you are getting enough of a
puddle on the sleeve as you turn down the heat.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Ken Moffett]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "cavelamb" > wrote
>
>> Might I ask if there is a reason for holding 2 psi?
>>
>> That seems a tad low...
>
> I was wondering the same thing. I usually go with around 32 Oxy, and
> 7 Acet. I am surprised he could get a neutral flame with those
> settings, but he claims to know what a neutral flame is, and that he
> is getting it. I wonder if his gauges are off...

32psi? That sounds more like "cutting tip" O2 pressure, not welding.

????

[Morgans]

"Ken Moffett" > wrote

> 32psi? That sounds more like "cutting tip" O2 pressure, not welding.

Yeah, you're right, it is. My mistake.

Ever try to weld with a cutting tip? Not easy, but it can be done! <g> I
wouldn't try to weld an airplane with a cutting torch, though.

Quite frankly, I do so little gas welding, I just play with it, until I like
it. I don't remember what I use. Does around 12 pounds sound about right?
That's what seems to come to mind.

Still, 2 pounds is not very much. I tend to use the knobs on the torch to
control the flow, as the most important control. I would think that if you
were using two pounds, you would have to have the knobs all of the way open.
I would think it would be hard to keep a consistent flame, like that.
--
Jim in NC

[cavelamb]

Ken Moffett wrote:

> "Morgans" > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>"cavelamb" > wrote
>>
>>
>>>Might I ask if there is a reason for holding 2 psi?
>>>
>>>That seems a tad low...
>>
>>I was wondering the same thing. I usually go with around 32 Oxy, and
>>7 Acet. I am surprised he could get a neutral flame with those
>>settings, but he claims to know what a neutral flame is, and that he
>>is getting it. I wonder if his gauges are off...
>
>
> 32psi? That sounds more like "cutting tip" O2 pressure, not welding.
>
> ????


Weeeel, Jim, he likes a nice hot tip!

I run 7 and 14.
1 to 2?

or maybe it's 2 to 1?



Richard

[Michael Horowitz]

On Wed, 14 Jun 2006 16:52:17 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> I'm having a welding problem. I'm using an OxyAcy rig. I'm
>> running 2 psi for each gas thru a .025 diameter tip. I find that in
>> order to weld join two pieces of .035 tubing with this tip, I must
>> adjust the flame until it's no larger than 3/16" long. Otherwise
>> I'm heating up too much of an area and burning away the outer sleeve
>> (in the case of a splice using an inner sleeve). A flame that small is
>> very difficult to adjust.
>>
>> I'm puzzled because the charts I'm looking at show a tip of this
>> size is appropriate for this size work.
>>
>> Can you suggest what might be my problem? - Regards, Mike
>>
>
>Heat needs to be mostly directed towards the inner sleeve and away from the
>easy to burn exposed edge. Using a larger diameter welding rod to shield the
>exposed edge can help. But it sounds like, in spite of what your chart says,
>you need to use a smaller tip. Just be sure you are getting enough of a
>puddle on the sleeve as you turn down the heat.


I'm going to try using the optimal settings (adjust Acy first to where
the flame jumps off the tip, then add O2 to get to neutral) and
backing away from the work; it just seemed easier to work with a
smaller flame and get the tip to within 1/4" of the work - Mike

[Morgans]

"Michael Horowitz" > wrote

> I'm going to try using the optimal settings (adjust Acy first to where
> the flame jumps off the tip, then add O2 to get to neutral) and
> backing away from the work; it just seemed easier to work with a
> smaller flame and get the tip to within 1/4" of the work - Mike

Wow. 1/4" seems to be a lot, lot closer than I am from the metal. Perhaps
that is your problem; the heat is too concentrated. I'll bet my distance is
3/4" to 1".

How about anyone else? How close are you to the work, with the tip of the
torch?
--
Jim in NC

[mhorowit]

Morgans wrote:
> "Michael Horowitz" > wrote
>
> > I'm going to try using the optimal settings (adjust Acy first to where
> > the flame jumps off the tip, then add O2 to get to neutral) and
> > backing away from the work; it just seemed easier to work with a
> > smaller flame and get the tip to within 1/4" of the work - Mike
>
> Wow. 1/4" seems to be a lot, lot closer than I am from the metal. Perhaps
> that is your problem; the heat is too concentrated. I'll bet my distance is
> 3/4" to 1".
>
> How about anyone else? How close are you to the work, with the tip of the
> torch?
> --
> Jim in NC

Jim - I seem to have fallen into a trap. Instead of reducing the amount
of heat by torch position, I simply reduced the heat by cutting down on
the cone size. That got me close to the work. I'm going to practice
with the 'approved' method of producing a neutral cone and backing
away; more practice.EAA book says start with the tip 1" from the metal
- Mike

[John T]

32oxy and 7 acet??? thats more like cutting torch pressures. About 5psi
of each is more than enough. In fact, I used Kent "Tinman" Whites method
(I use a meco midget). you open the valves on the torch handle wide
open, then crack the acetylene regulator valve (not the tank valve,
thats already open) until you can feel the acetylne on your cheek, light
it, adjust it, then start turning in the oxygen regulator valve to get
your neutral flame.

Note: point the torch AWAY from your face before lighting!! :)

Done this way, the gauges on my regulators are pratically on the pins
with hardly any reading at all.

John

[John T]

In practice, I seem to wind up with the blue flame about 1/2" or so away
from the metal, depending on how much heat is in the metal, etc.

What I do is adjust the acetylene until its just barely stopped smoking.
This is the point where you get the "feathered" flame. Then I add the
oxy for a neutral flame.

It sounds to me that the OP needs a smaller tip anyway.

John

[cavelamb]

John T wrote:

> 32oxy and 7 acet??? thats more like cutting torch pressures. About 5psi
> of each is more than enough. In fact, I used Kent "Tinman" Whites method
> (I use a meco midget). you open the valves on the torch handle wide
> open, then crack the acetylene regulator valve (not the tank valve,
> thats already open) until you can feel the acetylne on your cheek, light
> it, adjust it, then start turning in the oxygen regulator valve to get
> your neutral flame.
>
> Note: point the torch AWAY from your face before lighting!! :)
>
> Done this way, the gauges on my regulators are pratically on the pins
> with hardly any reading at all.
>
> John
>
THanks, John.

I remember reading that.

Will give it a try next time.

Richard

[cavelamb]

John T wrote:

> In practice, I seem to wind up with the blue flame about 1/2" or so away
> from the metal, depending on how much heat is in the metal, etc.
>
> What I do is adjust the acetylene until its just barely stopped smoking.
> This is the point where you get the "feathered" flame. Then I add the
> oxy for a neutral flame.
>
> It sounds to me that the OP needs a smaller tip anyway.
>
> John
>

Especially for welding thin wall 4130.

I use an O and an OO on a Vector F-100.
It's a log compared to the Meco, but it works well...


Richard

[Larry]

Mike,

Did the tip I let you borrow help?
I am building a mount for my HF Mobile antenna mount and may need your
help.

Hope to see you at the USO Swing Dance Saturday and the Poker Run
Sunday. If you can get in my 150, you can go with me on the Poker Run.
Fly Safe, Larry :-) O/O N22027, K4LLQ
mhorowit wrote:
> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
> >But it sounds like, in spite of what your chart says,
> > you need to use a smaller tip. Just be sure you are getting enough of a
> > puddle on the sleeve as you turn down the heat.
> >
> >
>
> Someone in the office suggests if I go to a much smaller tip, then the
> area I'm heating will be smaller and therefore I may be introducing
> stresses closer to the work.
> Is that a consideration in the world of 4130? - Mike

[Michael Horowitz]

On 20 Jun 2006 11:10:41 -0700, "Larry" > wrote:

>Mike,
>
>Did the tip I let you borrow help?


Oh - yes it helped; it told me that modern tips will fit on my old
Smith handle - Mike

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>But it sounds like, in spite of what your chart says,
>> you need to use a smaller tip. Just be sure you are getting enough of a
>> puddle on the sleeve as you turn down the heat.
>
> Someone in the office suggests if I go to a much smaller tip, then the
> area I'm heating will be smaller and therefore I may be introducing
> stresses closer to the work.
> Is that a consideration in the world of 4130? - Mike
>

That's news to me...

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Michael Horowitz]

On Tue, 20 Jun 2006 16:58:51 -0400, "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea
Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote:

>"mhorowit" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>> Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe wrote:
>>>But it sounds like, in spite of what your chart says,
>>> you need to use a smaller tip. Just be sure you are getting enough of a
>>> puddle on the sleeve as you turn down the heat.
>>
>> Someone in the office suggests if I go to a much smaller tip, then the
>> area I'm heating will be smaller and therefore I may be introducing
>> stresses closer to the work.
>> Is that a consideration in the world of 4130? - Mike
>>
>
>That's news to me...

OK, I'll take that as a "forget about it" :) - MIke

[Cy Galley]

Many are balanced pressure so 5 psi and 5psi might do the job,


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Ken Moffett" > wrote
>
>> 32psi? That sounds more like "cutting tip" O2 pressure, not welding.
>
> Yeah, you're right, it is. My mistake.
>
> Ever try to weld with a cutting tip? Not easy, but it can be done! <g> I
> wouldn't try to weld an airplane with a cutting torch, though.
>
> Quite frankly, I do so little gas welding, I just play with it, until I
> like it. I don't remember what I use. Does around 12 pounds sound about
> right? That's what seems to come to mind.
>
> Still, 2 pounds is not very much. I tend to use the knobs on the torch to
> control the flow, as the most important control. I would think that if
> you were using two pounds, you would have to have the knobs all of the way
> open. I would think it would be hard to keep a consistent flame, like
> that.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Skrud]

I always set up for 5.0 - 5.5 psi on both the acetylene and oxygen,
regardless of tip size.

"Cy Galley" > wrote in message
news:WlTqg.1060536$xm3.641273@attbi_s21...
> Many are balanced pressure so 5 psi and 5psi might do the job,
>
>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
> >
> > "Ken Moffett" > wrote
> >
> >> 32psi? That sounds more like "cutting tip" O2 pressure, not welding.
> >
> > Yeah, you're right, it is. My mistake.
> >
> > Ever try to weld with a cutting tip? Not easy, but it can be done! <g>
I
> > wouldn't try to weld an airplane with a cutting torch, though.
> >
> > Quite frankly, I do so little gas welding, I just play with it, until I
> > like it. I don't remember what I use. Does around 12 pounds sound
about
> > right? That's what seems to come to mind.
> >
> > Still, 2 pounds is not very much. I tend to use the knobs on the torch
to
> > control the flow, as the most important control. I would think that if
> > you were using two pounds, you would have to have the knobs all of the
way
> > open. I would think it would be hard to keep a consistent flame, like
> > that.
> > --
> > Jim in NC
> >
>
>