Mechanical Vario or not?

[Fish]

I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
Cheers

Fish

[Brian]

I removed my mechancal vario a couple years ago and replaced it with a
Borgelt B40 which as a 9Volt battery backup. I have had to use the
battery backup once. I am very pleased with this arrangement. My main
reason for changing was that I wanted an Audio on my backup vario.

Brian
HP16T N16VP "V6"

Fish wrote:
> I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
> computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
> electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
> Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
> redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
> Cheers
>
> Fish

[jerome]

Fish a écrit:
> I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
> computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
> electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
> Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
> redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
> Cheers
>
> Fish
>

In most European countries (including France) a pneumatic vario is
mandatory - and I think its a good idea when I count the times the
saiplane battery went dead in long flights!

[Bill Daniels]

"jerome" > wrote in message ...
>
>
> Fish a écrit:
>> I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
>> computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
>> electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
>> Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
>> redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
>> Cheers
>>
>> Fish
>>
>
> In most European countries (including France) a pneumatic vario is
> mandatory - and I think its a good idea when I count the times the
> saiplane battery went dead in long flights!
>

Mandating a mechanical vario is an outdated regulation - times have changed.
In the gliders I fly the broken vario is always the Winter.

The Borgelt B40/B400 makes a better standby vario since they have internal
backup batteries so are not dependent on the gliders main battery. The
lithium 9V in my B40 will power it for more than 50 hours - with audio and
averager. The Borgelt has better response than the Sage to boot.

Even in the very unlikely event that both my electronic varios failed, US
altimeters with 10 foot resolution can be used for thermalling although it
takes a lot of instrument tapping. Which reminds me, I've got to find one
of those pager DC vibrator motors to shake my altimeter.

Bill Daniels

[Gary Emerson]

Bill Daniels wrote:
> "jerome" > wrote in message ...
>
>>
>>Fish a écrit:
>>
>>>I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
>>>computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
>>>electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
>>>Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
>>>redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
>>>Cheers
>>>
>>>Fish
>>>
>>
>>In most European countries (including France) a pneumatic vario is
>>mandatory - and I think its a good idea when I count the times the
>>saiplane battery went dead in long flights!
>>
>
>
> Mandating a mechanical vario is an outdated regulation - times have changed.
> In the gliders I fly the broken vario is always the Winter.
>
> The Borgelt B40/B400 makes a better standby vario since they have internal
> backup batteries so are not dependent on the gliders main battery. The
> lithium 9V in my B40 will power it for more than 50 hours - with audio and
> averager. The Borgelt has better response than the Sage to boot.
>
> Even in the very unlikely event that both my electronic varios failed, US
> altimeters with 10 foot resolution can be used for thermalling although it
> takes a lot of instrument tapping. Which reminds me, I've got to find one
> of those pager DC vibrator motors to shake my altimeter.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>

Just take any small motor from radio shack and epoxy a small nut or
similar object to the side of the shaft. Works perfect. Mount the
motor on the back of your altimeter. If you want, you can run the wires
to a pushbutton on your stick - any time you need an instant 50 ft,
press the button! Mind you I didn't say with direction the 50 ft would
be...

[Stefan]

Bill Daniels schrieb:

>> In most European countries (including France) a pneumatic vario is
>> mandatory - and I think its a good idea when I count the times the
>> saiplane battery went dead in long flights!

> Mandating a mechanical vario is an outdated regulation

Whether a regulation is outdated is completely irrelevant if you want to
fly legally.

That said, I doubt "most" European countries require a machanical vario.
Switzerland, for one, doesn't even require any vario at all (except for
cloud flying).

Stefan

[Don Johnstone]

At 23:42 24 June 2006, Fish wrote:
>I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel
>. I have a Glide
>computer and primary electric vario on board as well,
>as an Ilec
>electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the
>cockpit.
>Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding
>reliability and
>redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
>Cheers
>
>Fish
>
If you are looking to save weight dropping the mechanical
vario is not likely to help much. The mechanical I
have weighs far less than any electric vario and the
flask is down the back on the CoG. The big advantage
of suck and blow varios is that they still work when
the battery fails. I have never had a failure on a
suck and blow vario with the exception of a Cosim which
failed more often than not.

[Knacklappen]

jerome wrote:

> In most European countries (including France) a pneumatic vario is
> mandatory - and I think its a good idea when I count the times the
> saiplane battery went dead in long flights!

As far as I know, only the mechanical altitude meter and the mechanical
speed indicator are mandatory. The vario is not a safety-critical
instrument and therefore not required by law... AFAIK...

[Herb]

It's been now over 8 years since I changed to an all electric panel.
My primary vario is a Cambridge 302 and I have a Westerboer pressure
sensor vario (no flask) as a secondary. With two batteries that can
each run the panel for many hours I had so far no problem. I cannot
see one reason why a mechanical vario would still be needed. The
Westerboer is completely in sync with the Cambridge and of course has
an audio output that I actually like much better than the one on the
Cambridge.

Go and throw out the Winter, you can probably sell it for the price of
an electric.

Herb, J7


Fish wrote:
> I am considering dropping a Winter Vario from my panel . I have a Glide
> computer and primary electric vario on board as well, as an Ilec
> electric. Just trying to lose some weight from the cockpit.
> Any PRO's or CONS's I need to know about regarding reliability and
> redundancy in flight......batteries in the cold etc??
> Cheers
>
> Fish

[Andreas Maurer]

On Sun, 25 Jun 2006 19:29:34 +0200, Stefan >
wrote:

>That said, I doubt "most" European countries require a machanical vario.
>Switzerland, for one, doesn't even require any vario at all (except for
>cloud flying).

Neither does Germany.


Andreas
Bye
Andreas

[kirk.stant]

For the past 6 years I've been using an SN10, backed up with a (no
flask) Westerboer electric (with audio), running on two seperate
battery systems, either of which can run some or all of the panel. No
mechanical - traded in the Winter the glider came with for the
Westerboer.

Both varios match perfectly, which makes sense since they are plumbed
to the same TE probe. The only improvement I would like would be to
have one vario use electronic TE (selectable, ideally) and the other
the probe, for redundancy in case the probe failed (yes that has
happened to me, with both an earlier glider/probe combo and in the TE
plumbing in the current glider).

Personally, I would prefer to have big digital airspeed, altitude, and
angle of attack displays (with some form of analog trend information)
in place of the sticky and slow mechanical airspeed indicator and
altimeter. Without electrics, I'm going to land anyway, so I design my
electrics accordingly. And I know (from experience) that I can fly
500k+ without a working airspeed indicator. I also care more about GPS
elevation and height above ground than what the pneumatic altimeter is
lying about.

Caveat - I wouldn't even think about setting up a 1-26 or a primary
trainer this way! This is for serious XC and racing fanatics....be
sure not to tell the spousal unit of the cost involved!

66

[Fish]

My major concern was that of secondary battery failure due to low
temps. It's not like we even get the opportunity to reach such heights
where I fly, but, should the opportunity arise to explore some wave,
i'd hate to see the little 9V backup battery on the ILEC, decide to
have a rest when it was needed most.
Does anyone have any clues on the behaviour of lithium batts at lo
temps?


Fish

[Marc Ramsey]

Fish wrote:
> My major concern was that of secondary battery failure due to low
> temps. It's not like we even get the opportunity to reach such heights
> where I fly, but, should the opportunity arise to explore some wave,
> i'd hate to see the little 9V backup battery on the ILEC, decide to
> have a rest when it was needed most.
> Does anyone have any clues on the behaviour of lithium batts at lo
> temps?

Yes, they show significantly less degradation at cold temperatures than
alkaline cells or lead acid batteries. They are used in the Perlan
project for precisely this reason...

Marc

[Don Johnstone]

At 22:18 27 June 2006, Fish wrote:
>
>My major concern was that of secondary battery failure
>due to low
>temps. It's not like we even get the opportunity to
>reach such heights
>where I fly, but, should the opportunity arise to explore
>some wave,
>i'd hate to see the little 9V backup battery on the
>ILEC, decide to
>have a rest when it was needed most.

That is a real problem. I lost my diamond height claim
because the new 9v battery in my EW barograph packed
in at 16000 ft, because of the cold. When we tested
it on the ground after the flight it returned to giving
8.6 volts.
A shame I did not fit the clockwork one we had.
>Does anyone have any clues on the behaviour of lithium
>batts at lo
>temps?
>
>
>Fish
>
>

[[email protected]]

Kirk makes an excellent point. There's a lot written about dual
batteries, backup electrical systems, mechanical vs. electronic varios,
etc. But the common point of failure for most of us is the TE probe. In
my last glider, I had completely independent varios...though both were
electric. One used a tail-mounted TE probe and a homemade netto device
connected to front statics. The other was driven by a Schuemann
TE/netto compensator connected to rear pitot and statics. Nothing short
of a lightning strike or water landing was going to take out my panel.
:)

In my current glider, I've got a Winter mechanical backup vario but
it's driven by the same tail-mounted TE source as is the LNAV
electronic device. I've never done an analysis or survey but I suspect
losing the TE signal is not much less likely than losing a battery. Yet
this is the first mention I can recall on RAS of this subject.

Anyone know of a [relatively] inexpensive vario with electronic TE
compensation? I read an article some time ago (Dick Johnson?) about how
mounting a TE probe on the fuselage works better and is not nearly as
draggy as we once thought.

Chip Bearden'
ASW 24 "JB"

[Ian McPhee]

I like to use the 302 set up on electronic compensation and the winter or
backup electric on TE probe- no talking between the varios - IM

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Kirk makes an excellent point. There's a lot written about dual
> batteries, backup electrical systems, mechanical vs. electronic varios,
> etc. But the common point of failure for most of us is the TE probe. In
> my last glider, I had completely independent varios...though both were
> electric. One used a tail-mounted TE probe and a homemade netto device
> connected to front statics. The other was driven by a Schuemann
> TE/netto compensator connected to rear pitot and statics. Nothing short
> of a lightning strike or water landing was going to take out my panel.
> :)
>
> In my current glider, I've got a Winter mechanical backup vario but
> it's driven by the same tail-mounted TE source as is the LNAV
> electronic device. I've never done an analysis or survey but I suspect
> losing the TE signal is not much less likely than losing a battery. Yet
> this is the first mention I can recall on RAS of this subject.
>
> Anyone know of a [relatively] inexpensive vario with electronic TE
> compensation? I read an article some time ago (Dick Johnson?) about how
> mounting a TE probe on the fuselage works better and is not nearly as
> draggy as we once thought.
>
> Chip Bearden'
> ASW 24 "JB"
>