Questions for EDS D1a users...

[Marc Ramsey]

I used the EDS D1a that came with my DG-600 for the first time,
yesterday. This was a 6 hour flight in the 15 to 17.9K range. Up to
this point, all of my gliders have been equipped with continuous flow
systems and Oxymizer cannulas. This EDS setup was using the standard
XCR regulator, supplied tubing, EDS cannula, and a fresh 9V battery
installed. I set (and verified several times during flight) D5, which
is supposed to be a fully automatic mode of operation. According to the
manual, it should sense the start of inhalation and send a shot of
oxygen at that point. Instead, it seemed to be sending oxygen at fixed
intervals of a few seconds, then sounding an alarm (I assume the apnea
alarm) if I didn't happen to inhale just before the next shot. To keep
the thing happy, I had to sync my breathing with its cycle, and make
sharper than normal inhalations (i.e snort). By the end of the flight,
I was feeling signs of being mildly hypoxic. Questions:

1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
possibly a defective unit?
2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
3. Does anyone really like these things?

Marc

[Stefan]

Marc Ramsey wrote:

> 1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
> possibly a defective unit?

No, maybe, maybe.

> 2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
> cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?

I don't know.

> 3. Does anyone really like these things?

Yes, a lot.

Stefan

[Bill Daniels]

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
om...
>I used the EDS D1a that came with my DG-600 for the first time, yesterday.
>This was a 6 hour flight in the 15 to 17.9K range. Up to this point, all
>of my gliders have been equipped with continuous flow systems and Oxymizer
>cannulas. This EDS setup was using the standard XCR regulator, supplied
>tubing, EDS cannula, and a fresh 9V battery installed. I set (and verified
>several times during flight) D5, which is supposed to be a fully automatic
>mode of operation. According to the manual, it should sense the start of
>inhalation and send a shot of oxygen at that point. Instead, it seemed to
>be sending oxygen at fixed intervals of a few seconds, then sounding an
>alarm (I assume the apnea alarm) if I didn't happen to inhale just before
>the next shot. To keep the thing happy, I had to sync my breathing with
>its cycle, and make sharper than normal inhalations (i.e snort). By the
>end of the flight, I was feeling signs of being mildly hypoxic. Questions:
>
> 1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
> possibly a defective unit?
> 2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber cylinders
> (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
> 3. Does anyone really like these things?
>
> Marc

We just sent a couple of the older EDS A1 units back to the factory for
warranty service/recalibration. Several pilots had complained of hypoxia at
low-teen altitudes. When I tested these units on the ground, it seemed to
me that the pulse of O2 wasn't exactly synchronized with inhalation. In
fact it seemed to as much random as sychronized.

My own newer EDS D1 unit works just fine as determined by my pulse oxymeter.
I did have to learn to breathe slowly. Rapid, shallow breaths will deplete
the O2 supply much quicker than slow deep breathing. Breathing through your
mouth while wearing a cannula will get you hypoxic in a hurry.

I note with interest that Mountain High now offers a rubber mask for the EDS
systems. That might solve some problems for mouth breathers.

Bill Daniels

[Richard]

Mark,

This is not the way a EDS is supposed to work. Please call Mountain
High on Monday 800-468-8185 . They will fix or replace the EDS Unit.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


Marc Ramsey wrote:
> I used the EDS D1a that came with my DG-600 for the first time,
> yesterday. This was a 6 hour flight in the 15 to 17.9K range. Up to
> this point, all of my gliders have been equipped with continuous flow
> systems and Oxymizer cannulas. This EDS setup was using the standard
> XCR regulator, supplied tubing, EDS cannula, and a fresh 9V battery
> installed. I set (and verified several times during flight) D5, which
> is supposed to be a fully automatic mode of operation. According to the
> manual, it should sense the start of inhalation and send a shot of
> oxygen at that point. Instead, it seemed to be sending oxygen at fixed
> intervals of a few seconds, then sounding an alarm (I assume the apnea
> alarm) if I didn't happen to inhale just before the next shot. To keep
> the thing happy, I had to sync my breathing with its cycle, and make
> sharper than normal inhalations (i.e snort). By the end of the flight,
> I was feeling signs of being mildly hypoxic. Questions:
>
> 1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
> possibly a defective unit?
> 2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
> cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
> 3. Does anyone really like these things?
>
> Marc

[Marc Ramsey]

Thanks for the replies, I'll call Mountain High...

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> 1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
> possibly a defective unit?
> 2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
> cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
> 3. Does anyone really like these things?
>
> Marc

[[email protected]]

<snip> Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
</snip>

Never seen anyone use an EDS with other than the largest bottle they
could fit in their glider. (I bought my EDS system without a bottle,
using the (large) bottles that came with the two gliders I've owned.)

A single fill of the tank lasts and lasts and lasts ...

~ted/2NO

[[email protected]]

Marc:

I'd strongly recommend that you install a bypass with a standard flow
meter so you can quickly change over if the unit fails. MH sells the
neccessary hardware to accomplish this. I change the 9 volt battery
every two months and put the old one in my alarm clock or garage door
opener. BTW, yours is the first failure report I've heard about.

The only way I know to accurately verify that ANY system is delivering
enough
O2 is to use a pulse-oximeter. They keep getting cheaper and all seem
reliable, as long as the batteries are good. Mine has an audible low
saturation alarm which is a useful feature. The only real problem with
them is that the sensor fits over a finger and. in a flapped ship,
tends to get in the way. At least one British pilot I've corresponded
with uses a BlueTooth-capable device and displays O2 saturation on his
PDA.

I fully agree that the carbon-fibre bottle is too damned small. It
helps a bit to have it filled at a facility that has a cooling tank and
is willing to take the time to let the temperature come down. I use
the MH on the night setting, which delivers O2 from the ground up and
get ~9 hours out of the small bottle as long as it's properly filled.
Used with the 10,000 foot setting it would probably last at least a
third longer. Age and conditioning also enter into the equation - I'm
an old fart and use much more O2 than you're likely to.

Ray Warshaw





Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Thanks for the replies, I'll call Mountain High...
>
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
> > 1. Is this the way an EDS is supposed to operate, operator error, or
> > possibly a defective unit?
> > 2. Why do EDS buyers insist upon getting those puny carbon fiber
> > cylinders (I used more than half the capacity in that one flight)?
> > 3. Does anyone really like these things?
> >
> > Marc

[Brett]

Hello Marc

Your EDS sounds faulty. I have just ordered another one myself - with the puny bottle. I did so as its literally half the empty weight of a corresponding aluminium tank. Every kg counts with our puny thermals here.

[PB]

wrote:

............
> I use
> the MH on the night setting, which delivers O2 from the ground up and
> get ~9 hours out of the small bottle as long as it's properly filled.

Hi Ray

What is the actual size of the "small bottle". I am considering buying
an oxygen system and would envisage using it as you do. So this would
give me a guide.

thanks

Paul

[Richard]

Paul

Please see my website http://www.craggyaero.com/edssystem1.htm
for bottle sizes and to purchase any EDS components. If you have any
questions please call.

Richard
www.craggyaero.com


PB wrote:
> wrote:
>
> ...........
> > I use
> > the MH on the night setting, which delivers O2 from the ground up and
> > get ~9 hours out of the small bottle as long as it's properly filled.
>
> Hi Ray
>
> What is the actual size of the "small bottle". I am considering buying
> an oxygen system and would envisage using it as you do. So this would
> give me a guide.
>
> thanks
>
> Paul

[[email protected]]

The small bottle is ~ 311 liters. If I were doing it over, I'd buy
the biggest one that would fit.

Ray Warshaw


PB wrote:
> wrote:
>
> ...........
> > I use
> > the MH on the night setting, which delivers O2 from the ground up and
> > get ~9 hours out of the small bottle as long as it's properly filled.
>
> Hi Ray
>
> What is the actual size of the "small bottle". I am considering buying
> an oxygen system and would envisage using it as you do. So this would
> give me a guide.
>
> thanks
>
> Paul

[Kemp]

Another consideration is the regulator. A couple years ago, I depleted
a single bottle in 8-9 hours @ 17K ft. using the D1 unit. After
installing a 2nd bottle, another pilot mentioned to check the regulator
(which also came from Mountain High). Indeed, it was putting out O2 at
27psi, not the 15psi it should. I sent the regulator to MH where they
fixed it no charge. If you have the MH regulator, you might as well
send that to them too for a check.

[PB]

Thanks Richard, Ray and Kemp for your answers. Richard I am aware of
the duration charts, but they tend to indicate consumption at particular
flight level. Ray said he used it from the ground up and I would
envisage that is how I would use it. So I needed the size to get an
indication.
Also what is the advantage of silica / Kevlar cylinders? Weight,
safety, both?

Cheers

Paul

[James D'Andrea]

Marc,

Last year I called Mountain High because my EDS-D1a was annoying me
with the alarm sounding off more frequently than other units I used in
the past. According to the person I spoke to (I don't remember his
name), newer units have a slightly different oxygen vs. altitude
mixture and alarm threshold profile. This was based on empirical
studies conducted by MH in collaboration with the University of
Buffalo. This new profile acutally provides LESS oxygen supplied in
each pulse. He said that I could send my unit in and they would
re-program the unit so the alarm would not sound as often, but that the
level of supplied oxygen would also be thinner. I decided to live with
it and not send it in. I don't know if MH has tinkered or updated the
profile again since last year.

[bumper]

"PB" > wrote in message
...
> Also what is the advantage of silica / Kevlar cylinders? Weight, safety,
> both?
>
> Cheers
>
> Paul



Composite bottles are typically lower in weight than metal ones. Usual
construction is by partially or fully wrapping composite over a thin
aluminum liner. The composite material may be epoxy reinforced with
fiberglass, Kevlar or carbon fiber. Most composite bottles require
hydro-testing every 3 years, while a few are rated for a 5 year test
cycle - - the same as aluminum bottles. AFAIK, composite bottles are life
limited by DOT in the USA, with life limit set at 15 years. This limit will
probably be extended, to perhaps 30 years, as these bottles gain more field
experience.

When I couldn't source a suitable and optimal sized bottle for the Stemme,
(the CF-480 from MH being too small and the KF-22 too long) I became a
dealer for the bottle listed info below. This bottle may also be well suited
to other applications where it's relatively short, fat size, light weight,
and decent capacity would provide a better fit than some of the other more
commonly available sizes.

The full wrap carbon fiber bottle I provide is:

Outer Diameter 5.38 in (137 mm)

Length 11.90 in (302 mm)
Weight 3.7 lbs (1.68 kg)
Oxygen Content @ 3000 psi: 717 liters

@ 2000 psi: 533 liters

$595 USD, includes mini CGA540 valve and gauge.
As they are date stamped, I don't normally "stock" this bottle, so expect a
few weeks delay when ordering.

bumper

for more info email bumperm "at"att"dot"net