tail ballast antifreeze

[[email protected]]

I've read the past posts on using ~20% methanol to prevent tail ballast
from freezing. I have these questions three:

1) Is methanol in any way corrosive to rubber parts/seals?

2) Is there a reason not to use ethanol if methanol can't be found?

3) Does a glider flying in the Great Basin area in July, between 15k
and 18k for 7+ hours, really need tail ballast anti-freeze?

~ted/2NO

[JS]

wrote:

> 3) Does a glider flying in the Great Basin area in July, between 15k
> and 18k for 7+ hours, really need tail ballast anti-freeze?
>
> ~ted/2NO

It's not necessary, Ted!
Just load it to MGW and your desired C/G and have fun.
Jim

[BTIZ]

JS has a lot more experience than I flying the Great Basin, but in the FWIW
category, the winds aloft forecast will have the forecast temperatures
aloft.

I just got a forecast of the DUATS net for a VGT to RNO flight for tomorrow
morning and the forecast temps at 12K MSL is +09 and at 18K MSL at -09.

Freezing level forecast is:
Freezing Level
Idaho ... 14,000 feet to 15,500 feet.
Montana ... 12,500 feet to 13,000 feet eastern. 13,000 feet to 14,500 feet
remainder.
Wyoming ... 13,500 feet to 15,500 feet.
Nevada ... 15,000 feet to 16,000 feet.
Utah ... 15,000 feet to 16,000 feet.
Colorado ... 13,500 feet to 15,500 feet.
Arizona ... 15,000 feet to 16,000 feet.
New Mexico ... 14,000 feet to 15,500 feet.

So if you plan on staying too long above 15KMSL, mmmmmm

BT

"JS" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> wrote:
>
>> 3) Does a glider flying in the Great Basin area in July, between 15k
>> and 18k for 7+ hours, really need tail ballast anti-freeze?
>>
>> ~ted/2NO
>
> It's not necessary, Ted!
> Just load it to MGW and your desired C/G and have fun.
> Jim
>

[bumper]

"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:kdlog.15261$_c1.2009@fed1read05...
>
> So if you plan on staying too long above 15KMSL, mmmmmm
>
> BT


It puzzles me that so many glider pilots cannot solve basic problems without
resorting to alcohol or booze!! Duh, simply use boiling water for ballast
and you can safely (?) extend your stay above the freezing level by at least
10 minutes .

I know, I know, you're probably asking yourself, "Why didn't I think of
that?".

all the best,
--
bumper
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

[Bill Daniels]

"bumper" > wrote in message
...
>
> "BTIZ" > wrote in message
> news:kdlog.15261$_c1.2009@fed1read05...
>>
>> So if you plan on staying too long above 15KMSL, mmmmmm
>>
>> BT
>
>
> It puzzles me that so many glider pilots cannot solve basic problems
> without resorting to alcohol or booze!! Duh, simply use boiling water for
> ballast and you can safely (?) extend your stay above the freezing level
> by at least 10 minutes .
>
> I know, I know, you're probably asking yourself, "Why didn't I think of
> that?".
>
> all the best,
> --
> bumper
> "Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
>
>

Of course, you could put an electric heater in the fin tank. That would
give you yet another reason to install two 25AH (14V?) batteries.

bildan

[Gary Emerson]

wrote:
> I've read the past posts on using ~20% methanol to prevent tail ballast
> from freezing. I have these questions three:
>
> 1) Is methanol in any way corrosive to rubber parts/seals?
>
> 2) Is there a reason not to use ethanol if methanol can't be found?
>
> 3) Does a glider flying in the Great Basin area in July, between 15k
> and 18k for 7+ hours, really need tail ballast anti-freeze?
>
> ~ted/2NO
>
I'm betting there is a really good reason, but why not use automotive
antifreeze? Is it not compatible with composites?

[[email protected]]

> I'm betting there is a really good reason, but why not use automotive
> antifreeze? Is it not compatible with composites?

Very bad for the environment.

[BTIZ]

> bumper
> "Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."

around here we call that "Nevelling"
after Neville Robinson who perfected the technique
BT

[[email protected]]

I got this from our resident physicist and weather guru:

<snip>
>From NHTSA on methanol in fuels:

"Methanol will attack and corrode certain metals, such as magnesium and
aluminum. Additionally, the corrosion products of aluminum and methanol
will precipitate out of the liquid fuel and clog filters and fuel
injectors. For this reason, it is recommended that metals such as
stainless steel and carbon steel be used in methanol fuel systems and
fuel delivery systems. Methanol will also attack many common
elastomeric materials, like rubber, polyurethane, and most plastics.
Elastomers with high fluorine content and Teflon have been proven to be
compatible with methanol."

.... Ethanol is probably safer.
</snip>

Thanks Mike!

~ted/2NO
"Jack Daniels for my V2C!"

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> I got this from our resident physicist and weather guru:
>
> <snip>
> >From NHTSA on methanol in fuels:
>
> "Methanol will attack and corrode certain metals, such as magnesium and
> aluminum. Additionally, the corrosion products of aluminum and methanol
> will precipitate out of the liquid fuel and clog filters and fuel
> injectors. For this reason, it is recommended that metals such as
> stainless steel and carbon steel be used in methanol fuel systems and
> fuel delivery systems. Methanol will also attack many common
> elastomeric materials, like rubber, polyurethane, and most plastics.
> Elastomers with high fluorine content and Teflon have been proven to be
> compatible with methanol."
>
> ... Ethanol is probably safer.
> </snip>
>
> Thanks Mike!
>
> ~ted/2NO
> "Jack Daniels for my V2C!"

Food graded PROPYLENE GLYCOL might be a good choice...it is less
effective then the ethylene glycol (very nasty stuff)...15% solution is
good down to 10 deg. F.I just don't know if it will react with
fiberglass....propylene glycol is used in cosmetics, food processing,
hospitals, etc. But also keep in mind that adding a kitchen salt into
fresh water will bring the freezing point down....my 2 cents....

[Bert Willing]

If you have any metal parts in the piping, they won't appreciate the salt...

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> wrote:
>> I got this from our resident physicist and weather guru:
>>
>> <snip>
>> >From NHTSA on methanol in fuels:
>>
>> "Methanol will attack and corrode certain metals, such as magnesium and
>> aluminum. Additionally, the corrosion products of aluminum and methanol
>> will precipitate out of the liquid fuel and clog filters and fuel
>> injectors. For this reason, it is recommended that metals such as
>> stainless steel and carbon steel be used in methanol fuel systems and
>> fuel delivery systems. Methanol will also attack many common
>> elastomeric materials, like rubber, polyurethane, and most plastics.
>> Elastomers with high fluorine content and Teflon have been proven to be
>> compatible with methanol."
>>
>> ... Ethanol is probably safer.
>> </snip>
>>
>> Thanks Mike!
>>
>> ~ted/2NO
>> "Jack Daniels for my V2C!"
>
> Food graded PROPYLENE GLYCOL might be a good choice...it is less
> effective then the ethylene glycol (very nasty stuff)...15% solution is
> good down to 10 deg. F.I just don't know if it will react with
> fiberglass....propylene glycol is used in cosmetics, food processing,
> hospitals, etc. But also keep in mind that adding a kitchen salt into
> fresh water will bring the freezing point down....my 2 cents....
>

[Al]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> I'm betting there is a really good reason, but why not use automotive
>> antifreeze? Is it not compatible with composites?
>
> Very bad for the environment.
>

and you can't drink it if you land out.

Al

[Bob Caldwell]

Try windshield washer fluid

[[email protected]]

Does anyone disagree with JS's statement that I do not need tail
ballast antifreeze for flying at -5C for six or seven hours? I can't
imagine six liters of sloshing water freezing at only a few degrees
below. But I don't have practical experience in this area and I don't
want to make a really expensive mistake.

I appreciate all the feedback but I'm specifically asking about (1)
methanol, (2) ethanol and (3) none. I'm familiar with all the other
options from older posts.

Ely in 3 days -- can't wait!

~ted
V2C "2NO"

[Marc Ramsey]

wrote:
> Does anyone disagree with JS's statement that I do not need tail
> ballast antifreeze for flying at -5C for six or seven hours? I can't
> imagine six liters of sloshing water freezing at only a few degrees
> below. But I don't have practical experience in this area and I don't
> want to make a really expensive mistake.
>
> I appreciate all the feedback but I'm specifically asking about (1)
> methanol, (2) ethanol and (3) none. I'm familiar with all the other
> options from older posts.
>
> Ely in 3 days -- can't wait!

I've been flying out of Truckee, Minden, Tonopah, Ely, and Parowan for
15 summers or so, and have numerous ballasted 5+ hour flights in the 15
to 18K foot range. I have never used antifreeze, and never had the tail
ballast freeze. I have never noticed anyone else using antifreeze
during the summer at these sites...

Marc

[Francisco De Almeida]

The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the =
tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ... =
beware!

[Marc Ramsey]

Francisco De Almeida wrote:
> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the =
> tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
> people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
> immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
> So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ... =
> beware!

I've been assuming that solar heating is the reason that the tail
ballast doesn't end up freezing during these summer flights. At a few
degrees below 0C in shadow, it should still take something more than an
hour for a few liters of water to freeze to the extent that it would
cause structural damage. Lack of lift and cold toes would cause me to
seek warmer environs long before that point...

[Francisco De Almeida]

I may as well mention another variable: radiant temperature.

Imagine you are attending a spring wave camp in some Nordic country. It =
is a beautiful, cold, clear day without a trace of cloud. The sun gives =
little warmth as its rays are so slanted. In these conditions, even if =
outside air temperature is, let's say, +2=BAC, you are already in risk, =
because the sky vault has a radiant temperature some ten degrees lower =
than the local air temperature, and will be chilling all exposed =
surfaces. This is the same mechanism that causes frost on clear nights. =
Manufacturers have to take into account such worst case scenarios for =
certification purposes.

In a midsummer Arizona day things will be quite different. The blazing =
sun, re-irradiation from cumulus clouds and even from the warm ground, =
will ensure that the mean radiant temperature to which the glider is =
subjected is higher than the air temperature at altitude. Therefore, a =
(few) degrees below zero will still be safe.

[bagmaker]

Wont the "sloshing around" restrict the ability of the water to freeze solid? More likely to get a frozen slushy effect.
I suggest vodka 20% and red cordial at 20% would be the perfect mix, wont freeze solid, you can see it on the metal bits to hose it off and it wont bother the feilds too much when dumped. Cant wait for first drinks at an outlanding party either!

Bagger








HEY! Only joking!

[Denis]

Francisco De Almeida a écrit :
> I may as well mention another variable: radiant temperature.
>
> Imagine you are attending a spring wave camp in some Nordic country. It =
> is a beautiful, cold, clear day without a trace of cloud. The sun gives =
> little warmth as its rays are so slanted. In these conditions, even if =
> outside air temperature is, let's say, +2=BAC, you are already in risk, =
> because the sky vault has a radiant temperature some ten degrees lower =
> than the local air temperature, and will be chilling all exposed =
> surfaces. This is the same mechanism that causes frost on clear nights. =
> Manufacturers have to take into account such worst case scenarios for =
> certification purposes.
>
> In a midsummer Arizona day things will be quite different. The blazing =
> sun, re-irradiation from cumulus clouds and even from the warm ground, =
> will ensure that the mean radiant temperature to which the glider is =
> subjected is higher than the air temperature at altitude. Therefore, a =
> (few) degrees below zero will still be safe.

you're right, but I suspect that thermal inertia is even more important
than radiation. Put 5 liter of water at 30°C in an fiberglass can into a
freezer at -5°C, I suspect it will take hours to freeze. And in flight
you're not always at cloudbase, only the temperature at mean altitude counts

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[JS]

Try this experiment.
Put your full 6 liter MSR Dromedary Bag (a great way to carry
drinking water of a decent quantity) in the freezer at home.
Take it out every couple of hours, and see how much of it is frozen.
That much water is pretty stable. ...And that experiment was in the
freezer, not barely below freezing in a sun-bathed glider!

By the way, the Dromedary Bag is built rather like ye olde Smiley
water ballast bags, nearly bulletproof.
Jim

[JS]

What a silly bugger.
That post sat in my computer for hours, then I posted it directly after
an identical one.
Go to jail, do not collect $200
Jim

[Gary Emerson]

Francisco De Almeida wrote:
> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the =
> tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
> people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
> immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
> So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ... =
> beware!
>
>
>
>
>


What's +2=BAC and 2=BAC for the clueless?

[Bert Willing]

What can happen though is that the small water content in the valve does
freeze, nad then you'll have a bloody leaking valve.

"Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
...
> Francisco De Almeida wrote:
>> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the =
>> tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
>> people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
>> immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
>> So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ...
>> =
>> beware!
>
> I've been assuming that solar heating is the reason that the tail ballast
> doesn't end up freezing during these summer flights. At a few degrees
> below 0C in shadow, it should still take something more than an hour for a
> few liters of water to freeze to the extent that it would cause structural
> damage. Lack of lift and cold toes would cause me to seek warmer environs
> long before that point...
>

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

I am not an expert on high altitude flying as I've done very little of it.
However, I do believe I would take the possibility of water freezing in the
wing and/or tail very seriously if I were flying above 10,000 feet for more
than a few minutes. The reason is that a while back I saw a photo of a
glider with the leading edge of the wing split open due to water freezing
and expanding in the wing. It was a dramatic photo taken in flight with the
leading edge open 4 inches or more over a split that was perhaps 3 feet
long. This is all from memory so I may not be remembering correctly. It
think it was a photo in Soaring magazine.

Good Soaring,

Paul Remde

"Bert Willing" > wrote in message
...
> What can happen though is that the small water content in the valve does
> freeze, nad then you'll have a bloody leaking valve.
>
> "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
> ...
>> Francisco De Almeida wrote:
>>> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the =
>>> tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
>>> people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
>>> immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
>>> So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ...
>>> =
>>> beware!
>>
>> I've been assuming that solar heating is the reason that the tail ballast
>> doesn't end up freezing during these summer flights. At a few degrees
>> below 0C in shadow, it should still take something more than an hour for
>> a few liters of water to freeze to the extent that it would cause
>> structural damage. Lack of lift and cold toes would cause me to seek
>> warmer environs long before that point...
>>
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

Take this with a grain of salt since the consequences of being wrong are
huge.

There are a lot of pilots flying out of Boulder, CO who routinely fly above
the freezing level with ballast in the wings and fin tanks. I fly a Duo
Discus with water in the fin tank. I don't know of any problems although
pilots worry about it. Foam core sandwich construction is a pretty good
thermal insulator which probably helps a lot. For sure if the tank is cold
enough long enough it WILL freeze.

I speculate that since the water gets a lot of sloshing from turbulence,
while that doesn't reduce the heat required to freeze, it does keep the
temperature of the whole tank uniform and that helps insure that all the
water will freeze at once or not at all. Sloshing may also add a tiny
amount of heat. Getting the water down to the freezing temperature is one
thing. Removing the heat of crystalization is the other - that takes a
while. Most flights don't stay above the freezing level that long.

One thing I know is that it's important never dump ballast above the
freezing level. That would almost certainly result in a l;arge amount of
ice on the rear fuselage, possibly freezing the rudder.

I'd like to hear of a suitable 'anti-freeze'. That would remove the worry.

Bill Daniels


"Paul Remde" > wrote in message
news:LpRog.805639$084.97636@attbi_s22...
> Hi,
>
> I am not an expert on high altitude flying as I've done very little of it.
> However, I do believe I would take the possibility of water freezing in
> the wing and/or tail very seriously if I were flying above 10,000 feet for
> more than a few minutes. The reason is that a while back I saw a photo of
> a glider with the leading edge of the wing split open due to water
> freezing and expanding in the wing. It was a dramatic photo taken in
> flight with the leading edge open 4 inches or more over a split that was
> perhaps 3 feet long. This is all from memory so I may not be remembering
> correctly. It think it was a photo in Soaring magazine.
>
> Good Soaring,
>
> Paul Remde
>
> "Bert Willing" > wrote in
> message ...
>> What can happen though is that the small water content in the valve does
>> freeze, nad then you'll have a bloody leaking valve.
>>
>> "Marc Ramsey" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Francisco De Almeida wrote:
>>>> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release the
>>>> =
>>>> tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the reason why =
>>>> people can keep their water at lower air temperatures without =
>>>> immediately being awarded a split tailplane.
>>>> So if you have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight
>>>> ... =
>>>> beware!
>>>
>>> I've been assuming that solar heating is the reason that the tail
>>> ballast doesn't end up freezing during these summer flights. At a few
>>> degrees below 0C in shadow, it should still take something more than an
>>> hour for a few liters of water to freeze to the extent that it would
>>> cause structural damage. Lack of lift and cold toes would cause me to
>>> seek warmer environs long before that point...
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Marc Ramsey]

Paul Remde wrote:
> The reason is that a while back I saw a photo of a
> glider with the leading edge of the wing split open due to water freezing
> and expanding in the wing. It was a dramatic photo taken in flight with the
> leading edge open 4 inches or more over a split that was perhaps 3 feet
> long. This is all from memory so I may not be remembering correctly. It
> think it was a photo in Soaring magazine.

Think about how long it would take 10 or 15 gallons of water to freeze.
I suppose it might freeze if it left overnight in sub-freezing weather,
but I doubt it would do so during a 5 hour flight. The more likely
explanation is that someone ignored the manufacturers warnings about the
maximum amount of "head" allowed during filling. The water pressure
from the typical garden hose or even an SUV top mounted water bag is
sufficient to split a wing open.

A tail tank (and fin) freezing and splitting open is a worry, in
practice it doesn't seem to happen with any noticeable frequency during
summer flights to 18K feet in the western US...

Marc

[Mike the Strike]

My take is that freezing level in the summer months out west is around
15,000 feet and that at 18,000 feet it is rarely below 20 degrees F
(about -6 C). If you take the average temperature between 15,000 and
18,000 as around 26 F (-3 C), it will take a long time to extract
enough heat out of water to freeze it.

If you're really worried, you could paint your fin black!

[Cliff Hilty]

Definition: BTU (British Thermal Unit) is that 1 BTU,
is equal to the amount of heat required to raise 1
pound of water 1 degree farenheight. This refers diredtly
to raising or lowering temps in water (sensible heat).
When removing latent heat (the heat contained in changing
state ie from water to ice) it takes 140 BTU's per
pound as compared to 1. In other words it will take
140 times the exposure to change the water to ice as
it took to lower it 1 degree in the tank. There fore
if you could measure the temps in you tank you could
then do the math to figure out when you tail or wings
are going to explode :) Any way have been flying for
3500 hours with many 0-15 degree hours with water and
not had a problem yet. But then again I don't have
a tail tank :(



At 17:42 29 June 2006, Mike The Strike wrote:
>My take is that freezing level in the summer months
>out west is around
>15,000 feet and that at 18,000 feet it is rarely below
>20 degrees F
>(about -6 C). If you take the average temperature
>between 15,000 and
>18,000 as around 26 F (-3 C), it will take a long time
>to extract
>enough heat out of water to freeze it.
>
>If you're really worried, you could paint your fin
>black!
>
>

[Francisco De Almeida]

Gary Emerson wrote:

> What's +2=3DBAC and 2=3DBAC for the clueless?

Sorry, it is the degree symbol, adulterated by some mismatch in the =
character sets along the way from my computer to the r.a.s. server.
Please read "+2 degree Celsius".

[[email protected]]

I have seen gliders with frozen tail tanks.

I always used to use plain old automotive anti-freeze in the tail tank
as it wont attack GRP or rubber and 1-2 gallons at 10-20% mix released
as an aerosol at 10,000ft is not going to harm anything!!

Also be aware that the wings with their foam cores are like thermos
flasks, just be sure to not have any dripping valves or dump water
above the freezing layer.
Tail tanks however are usually single skinned and can be frozen
relatively easily.

Regards

Al


wrote:
> I've read the past posts on using ~20% methanol to prevent tail ballast
> from freezing. I have these questions three:
>
> 1) Is methanol in any way corrosive to rubber parts/seals?
>
> 2) Is there a reason not to use ethanol if methanol can't be found?
>
> 3) Does a glider flying in the Great Basin area in July, between 15k
> and 18k for 7+ hours, really need tail ballast anti-freeze?
>
> ~ted/2NO

[Andy Blackburn]

At 23:48 28 June 2006, Denis wrote:

>you're right, but I suspect that thermal inertia is
>even more important
>than radiation.

Technically there's no such thing as thermal inertia.
You probably mean thermal capacitence.

If thermal inertia existed the ground would keep getting
hotter even after the sun goes down - great for longer
soaring days!

9B

[Kilo Charlie]

"Andy Blackburn" > wrote in message
...
> At 23:48 28 June 2006, Denis wrote:
>
>>you're right, but I suspect that thermal inertia is
>>even more important
>>than radiation.
>
> Technically there's no such thing as thermal inertia.
> You probably mean thermal capacitence.
>
> If thermal inertia existed the ground would keep getting
> hotter even after the sun goes down - great for longer
> soaring days!
>
> 9B

Interesting discussion on Dr. Jack's site re a related topic to this.....why
do clouds keep developing after sunset? Best answer I saw there (from Dr.
Jack) was that the sun no longer is heating the upper areas of the cloud so
it cools rapidly providing a continuing temperature gradient inspite of the
lower air not heating any further.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Denis]

Andy Blackburn a écrit :
> At 23:48 28 June 2006, Denis wrote:
>

> Technically there's no such thing as thermal inertia.
> You probably mean thermal capacitence.

right - so much for me ;-)

BTW I did not try it but I read calcium chloride is a good anti-freeze
for wings and tail ballasts, not too bad for pipes or environment. Down
to - 40°C depending mixing ratio. It is what is used in common
anti-moisture products. Be aware that mixing with water release a lot of
heat and has to be made outside the wings...

--
Denis

R. Parce que ça rompt le cours normal de la conversation !!!
Q. Pourquoi ne faut-il pas répondre au-dessus de la question ?

[Don Byrer]

On 27 Jun 2006 15:32:21 -0700, wrote:

>I've read the past posts on using ~20% methanol to prevent tail ballast
>from freezing.

How about RV antifreeze? It's propylene glycol, they use it for
winterproofing water systems in RV's. Non-poisonous, relatively
cheap, "mostly harmless".

--Don
Glider pilot wannabe....gotta sell more stuff on ebay first!
Don Byrer
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Amateur Radio KJ5KB
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>"

[Rob Brown]

Just in case you are still wondering ...

On Thu, 29 Jun 2006 at 02:04 -0000, Gary Emerson wrote:

> Francisco De Almeida wrote:
>> The German manufacturers would rather have their customers release
>> the = tail ballast at +2=BAC. I suspect solar radiation is the
>> reason why = people can keep their water at lower air temperatures
>> without = immediately being awarded a split tailplane. So if you
>> have both outside temperatures below 2=BAC and no sunlight ... =
>> beware!
>
> What's +2=BAC and 2=BAC for the clueless?

=BA is the degree symbol, IE the superscript circle. So Francisco was
saying "+2 degrees C" and "2 degrees C"


--

Rob Brown b r o w n a t g m c l d o t c o m
G. Michaels Consulting Ltd. (780)438-9343 (voice)
Edmonton (780)437-3367 (FAX)
http://gmcl.com/