Re: Do they still make ONC/TPC charts?

[Ron Natalie]

Peter wrote:
> It seems to me these stopped c. 1998...

Actually, they just stopped public paper sales. The stated
reason was they didn't want terrorists to use them. But I
guess they didn't figure that terrorists could either use
old charts or the files in electronic form.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Ron Natalie > said:
>Peter wrote:
>> It seems to me these stopped c. 1998...
>
>Actually, they just stopped public paper sales. The stated
>reason was they didn't want terrorists to use them. But I
>guess they didn't figure that terrorists could either use
>old charts or the files in electronic form.

Yeah, that's the same excuse they're giving for removing public access to
DAFIF. Because everybody knows that airports move around all the time so
you can't use old data.

But in the case of DAFIF, the real reason is that the Australian avaition
authority sued Jeppeson for using their copyright data. Rather than
waiting to see if Australia won and/or that Australian would then go after
them, they just withdrew.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Last I checked, it wasn't the power cord for the Clue Generator
that was sticking up your ass.
-- John Novak

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, Peter > said:
(Paul Tomblin) wrote
>>But in the case of DAFIF, the real reason is that the Australian avaition
>>authority sued Jeppeson for using their copyright data. Rather than
>>waiting to see if Australia won and/or that Australian would then go after
>>them, they just withdrew.
>
>Why do you think that the US action (on DAFIF) is in any way linked to
>Australia?

Because that's what the DAFIF program manager told me last year.

--begin quoted text--
This initiative began because the Australian AIP producers are
suing Jeppesen for copyright infringement. I don't know any of the details
involved, but in order to prevent a similar situation, we are researching
contingencies like this.

Jerry Leicht
DAFIF Program Manager
National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
Comm: 314-263-4636
DSN: 693-4636
Pager and Voicemail: 877-523-0130

--end quoted text--

>In Europe, the Eurocontrol database is essentially what DAFIF provides
>and is free.

Except the only format I've found it in are PDF files, which are useless
for trying to extract the data into a database.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Fortunately, he was promoted far enough up the management ladder that he
no longer has any real responsibility and is kept far away from sharp or
dangerous objects - such as cc, gcc, vi and emacs. -- Curt Fennell

[[email protected]]

Paul Tomblin > wrote:
>In a previous article, Peter > said:
>>In Europe, the Eurocontrol database is essentially what DAFIF provides
>>and is free.
>
>Except the only format I've found it in are PDF files, which are useless
>for trying to extract the data into a database.

I went to http://www.ead.eurocontrol.int (needs Java and pop-ups), asked
for a list of all the DMEs in the world, and it spit out a report in
HTML. The source was remarkably clean and a minute with vi (which could
easily turn into a minute with sed) turned it into CSV, which OO happily
read in. If you like, I can send you what I have.

Matt Roberds

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 08:10:10 +0100, Peter >
wrote:

>
(Paul Tomblin) wrote
>
>>>Why do you think that the US action (on DAFIF) is in any way linked to
>>>Australia?
>>
>>Because that's what the DAFIF program manager told me last year.
>>
>>--begin quoted text--
>> This initiative began because the Australian AIP producers are
>>suing Jeppesen for copyright infringement. I don't know any of the details
>>involved, but in order to prevent a similar situation, we are researching
>>contingencies like this.
>>
>>Jerry Leicht
>>DAFIF Program Manager
>>National Geospatial-Intelligence Agency (NGA)
>>Comm: 314-263-4636
>>DSN: 693-4636
>>Pager and Voicemail: 877-523-0130

>>--end quoted text--
>
>I must be going thick, but I don't see why DAFIF is worried.
>
>Do they think the US Govt is going to sue Jepp? I thought DAFIF *was*
>the US Govt, effectively. If they don't mind Jepp ripping off the data
>and reselling it in a commercial product (like Jepp have been doing
>all over the world) why should anybody else be worried?

I believe the USG is 'worried' about being sued for copyright
infringement by the AUS government, just like Jepp is/was. Nothing
here is between USG and Jepp.

[Peter Clark]

On Sun, 09 Jul 2006 19:38:48 +0100, Peter >
wrote:

>
>Peter Clark > wrote
>
>>I believe the USG is 'worried' about being sued for copyright
>>infringement by the AUS government, just like Jepp is/was. Nothing
>>here is between USG and Jepp.
>
>OK, I see.
>
>However, what Australian info does DAFIF provide? Navaid data must be
>public domain, surely.

Apparently not. I don't believe the Canadian databases are public
domain either. Since they're copyrighted, the holder has the right to
assert their rights under the act.

>In any case, DAFIF could simply strip out Australian data from itself.
>Very few Americans fly to Australia; in fact *very* few people of any
>sort fly to Australia. It's a massive distance and the only people
>that do it are bizjet and airline pilots and they can all afford the
>worldwide Jeppview subscription :)

And DAFIF decided rather than deal with filtering the datasets that
they would externally provide to include only information sourced in
the public domain (IIUC, the database is what's used for military
navigation publications - FLIP charts, enroute charts, FMS, etc), they
instead decided to stop providing the database to the public.