Captain Fraidy-Cat Has a Question

[Blue Crew]

An actual conversation that quite recently took place ten thousand feet
over the California desert between Captain Fraidy-Cat (CFC) and a
rather happy-go-lucky glider CFI (CFIG):

CFC: NO!! PLEASE! I'M SCARED!!!

CFIG: What are you scared of?

CFC: I DON'T KNOW!!

CFIG: Then you can't be scared. You have to at least be scared of
something. Keep your turn going.

CFC: I'M SCARED THAT SHE'S GONNA INVERT!!

CFIG: She won't. Keep your turn going.

CFC: WHEN I MAKE A TURN, THE STICK IS ALL THE WAY AGAINST MY LEG AND
IT WON'T GO ANY FURTHER!!

....but what the exhausted, flabbergasted Captain Fraidy-Cat failed to
clarify for the CFIG was that he was referring to the OPPOSITE leg,
i.e., when he was in a right turn, say, he had the stick all the way to
the LEFT, pressing on his left leg, and she still seems to be on the
verge of rolling (banking) even further to the RIGHT. And THAT is what
he was scared of.

So now we're all back on the ground in the city, all rested up and
thinking more clearly, and the question is posed to you courageous
gentlemen on this news group: Could the glider continue rolling with
hard opposite aileron? Would opposite rudder (left in the above
example) help? Type is: Schweitzer SGS 2-33.

P.S. If that thing had a decent piece of yarn for a yaw string instead
of that worn-out, raggedy, one-inch stub, this conversation might not
have taken place as such. CFC had to fly her by feel, something
usually reserved for more experienced glider pilots.

[[email protected]]

You had to correct for that much adverse yaw in a 2-33?!?!?

Hope it was a 20 knotter

~tuno

[Bill Daniels]

It's common knowledge that the 2-33 uses the students legs as aileron
control stops, hince the howls of pain from the front cockpit whenever the
instructor demonstrates a maneuver. (The student can get even by 'clearing
the controls' without warning the instructor to move vital body parts clear
of the rear stick.)

If the students legs are anything larger than skinny, those control stops
(legs) will prevent using adequate 'top' aileron to overcome overbanking
generating understandable fear of 'inverting'.

Solutions: A. Get skinnier students or B. Get a better training glilder.

Seriously, ask if the student is holding constant rudder into the turn.

Bill Daniels


"Blue Crew" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> An actual conversation that quite recently took place ten thousand feet
> over the California desert between Captain Fraidy-Cat (CFC) and a
> rather happy-go-lucky glider CFI (CFIG):
>
> CFC: NO!! PLEASE! I'M SCARED!!!
>
> CFIG: What are you scared of?
>
> CFC: I DON'T KNOW!!
>
> CFIG: Then you can't be scared. You have to at least be scared of
> something. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: I'M SCARED THAT SHE'S GONNA INVERT!!
>
> CFIG: She won't. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: WHEN I MAKE A TURN, THE STICK IS ALL THE WAY AGAINST MY LEG AND
> IT WON'T GO ANY FURTHER!!
>
> ...but what the exhausted, flabbergasted Captain Fraidy-Cat failed to
> clarify for the CFIG was that he was referring to the OPPOSITE leg,
> i.e., when he was in a right turn, say, he had the stick all the way to
> the LEFT, pressing on his left leg, and she still seems to be on the
> verge of rolling (banking) even further to the RIGHT. And THAT is what
> he was scared of.
>
> So now we're all back on the ground in the city, all rested up and
> thinking more clearly, and the question is posed to you courageous
> gentlemen on this news group: Could the glider continue rolling with
> hard opposite aileron? Would opposite rudder (left in the above
> example) help? Type is: Schweitzer SGS 2-33.
>
> P.S. If that thing had a decent piece of yarn for a yaw string instead
> of that worn-out, raggedy, one-inch stub, this conversation might not
> have taken place as such. CFC had to fly her by feel, something
> usually reserved for more experienced glider pilots.
>

[BTIZ]

Left Rudder for a right turn would have helped roll wings level, not
continue the turn to the right.

What happened to the pre takeoff ground check, Controls free and clear..
that means you can move the control (left right forward and back, all the
way around) all the way to the mechanical stop. Not to the leg or in some
cases, aft stick to the belly impact.

If the leg is in the way, then the CFC is to big to be flying the 2-33
because he cannot deflect the controls to the mechanical stop. I'm betting
that if he could have removed his left leg for the right turn, then the
controls would work as advertised.

For those not familiar with long winged gliders and steep banked turns, "top
stick" or opposite aileron is required to counter the over banking tendency.

Yaw strings are nice, but as a CFIG I can't see it most of the time anyway
from the back seat. Unless I really try to look around the front seat
pilot/student. I "sense" an out of trim condition, then look around the
front seater at the yaw string to confirm before I say something.

Take the pre-solo student out without a yaw string.

BT


"Blue Crew" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> An actual conversation that quite recently took place ten thousand feet
> over the California desert between Captain Fraidy-Cat (CFC) and a
> rather happy-go-lucky glider CFI (CFIG):
>
> CFC: NO!! PLEASE! I'M SCARED!!!
>
> CFIG: What are you scared of?
>
> CFC: I DON'T KNOW!!
>
> CFIG: Then you can't be scared. You have to at least be scared of
> something. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: I'M SCARED THAT SHE'S GONNA INVERT!!
>
> CFIG: She won't. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: WHEN I MAKE A TURN, THE STICK IS ALL THE WAY AGAINST MY LEG AND
> IT WON'T GO ANY FURTHER!!
>
> ...but what the exhausted, flabbergasted Captain Fraidy-Cat failed to
> clarify for the CFIG was that he was referring to the OPPOSITE leg,
> i.e., when he was in a right turn, say, he had the stick all the way to
> the LEFT, pressing on his left leg, and she still seems to be on the
> verge of rolling (banking) even further to the RIGHT. And THAT is what
> he was scared of.
>
> So now we're all back on the ground in the city, all rested up and
> thinking more clearly, and the question is posed to you courageous
> gentlemen on this news group: Could the glider continue rolling with
> hard opposite aileron? Would opposite rudder (left in the above
> example) help? Type is: Schweitzer SGS 2-33.
>
> P.S. If that thing had a decent piece of yarn for a yaw string instead
> of that worn-out, raggedy, one-inch stub, this conversation might not
> have taken place as such. CFC had to fly her by feel, something
> usually reserved for more experienced glider pilots.
>

[quietman]

Pretty funny.

I only fly a 2-33 once in a while and always have a moment or two at
first where I wonder..."is the stick still connected?!!!"

A good technique in a turn is to STAND on the rudder in the direction
you desire, LIFT the opposite leg up high and PUSH the stick to the
fabric under that leg...perfect!

;-)

quietman
www.roenation.com

[Z Goudie]

At 07:36 11 July 2006, Quietman wrote:
>Pretty funny.
>
>I only fly a 2-33 once in a while and always have a
>moment or two at
>first where I wonder...'is the stick still connected?!!!'
>
>A good technique in a turn is to STAND on the rudder
>in the direction
>you desire, LIFT the opposite leg up high and PUSH
>the stick to the
>fabric under that leg...perfect!

Jings, crivvens and help ma boab, do these things actually
have Certificates of Airworthiness???

[Dave Boulter]

Blue Crew wrote:
>
>
> ...but what the exhausted, flabbergasted Captain Fraidy-Cat failed to
> clarify for the CFIG was that he was referring to the OPPOSITE leg,
> i.e., when he was in a right turn, say, he had the stick all the way to
> the LEFT, pressing on his left leg, and she still seems to be on the
> verge of rolling (banking) even further to the RIGHT. And THAT is what
> he was scared of.
>

Trying to lift the right wing up by stick to the far left...turning to
the right....the word spin comes to mind.....not holding off bank

/daveb

[Bill Daniels]

"quietman" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Pretty funny.
>
> I only fly a 2-33 once in a while and always have a moment or two at
> first where I wonder..."is the stick still connected?!!!"
>
> A good technique in a turn is to STAND on the rudder in the direction
> you desire, LIFT the opposite leg up high and PUSH the stick to the
> fabric under that leg...perfect!
>
> ;-)
>
> quietman
> www.roenation.com
>

Try this. While on the ground, install the student in the front seat of a
2-33, ask him to open the spoilers 50% and then try to use left aileron.
You will find the students left leg is pinned between the spoiler handle and
the stick limiting stick travel to about 2". Now, imagine trying to handle
a left crosswind gust just before touchdown.

bildan

[kirk.stant]

Ahh yes, the joys of the wonderful 2-33; the apotheosis of American
glider design, the best trainer ever built, etc. choke puke....

Turn them all into hubcaps, I say!

Seriously, those horrible things do more to damage the sport in the US
than an army of lawyers.

66

[Papa3]

BTIZ wrote:

> What happened to the pre takeoff ground check, Controls free and clear..
> that means you can move the control (left right forward and back, all the
> way around) all the way to the mechanical stop. Not to the leg or in some
> cases, aft stick to the belly impact.
>
> If the leg is in the way, then the CFC is to big to be flying the 2-33
> because he cannot deflect the controls to the mechanical stop. I'm betting
> that if he could have removed his left leg for the right turn, then the
> controls would work as advertised.
>
>
> BT

Got a lot of time in 2-33's?? This is a common problem affecting
anyone other than the anorexic or pre-pubescent teen students.
Solution typically involves having the student remove opposite foot
from rudder pedal enabling leg to be pulled back to where the thinner
shin-bone doesn't get in the way (quite as much).

Erik Mann (P3)

[Tony Verhulst]

kirk.stant wrote:
> Ahh yes, the joys of the wonderful 2-33; .......
>
> Seriously, those horrible things do more to damage the sport in the US
> than an army of lawyers.

Except, of course, when you have the inside view of a glider crash. Then
(and only then) that's the glider you want to be in.

Tony V "6N"

[HL Falbaum]

Weellll now---which would you rather do--fly a 2-33 or stay on the ground?
Last week I was at Moriarty, NM. After launching, I climbed briskly to
12,000 MSL, having spotted 2 distant gliders frolicking in a thermal, at a
higher altitude. When I got close enough, I realized they were the ASC and
Sundance 2-33's having fun!

My first club had a 2-22, then got the 2-33 - the glider that got me
"hooked"! I am now completely addicted.

Yes, the controls take a bit of getting used to, and an understanding of
basic aerodynamics. Yes it looks primitive. Yes, it is usually time-worn.
Yes, I'd rather fly my current ship. But if it came down to a 2-33 or
nothing---I'd take the 2-33 in a flash!

--
Hartley Falbaum
DG800B "KF" USA


"kirk.stant" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ahh yes, the joys of the wonderful 2-33; the apotheosis of American
> glider design, the best trainer ever built, etc. choke puke....
>
> Turn them all into hubcaps, I say!
>
> Seriously, those horrible things do more to damage the sport in the US
> than an army of lawyers.
>
> 66
>

[Scott[_1_]]

I agree...what the heck is wrong with a 2-33? I took 2 flights in one a
couple years ago when visiting Estrella in Arizona. It glides much
better than my Corben Junior Ace! I thought it was a fine ship for what
it was designed to do: train glider pilots! I didn't expect a 200:1
glide ratio :) I am still interested in pursuing my glider rating. My
daughter enjoyed her flight as well!

Scott
Bloomer, WI

HL Falbaum wrote:

> Weellll now---which would you rather do--fly a 2-33 or stay on the ground?
> Last week I was at Moriarty, NM. After launching, I climbed briskly to
> 12,000 MSL, having spotted 2 distant gliders frolicking in a thermal, at a
> higher altitude. When I got close enough, I realized they were the ASC and
> Sundance 2-33's having fun!
>
> My first club had a 2-22, then got the 2-33 - the glider that got me
> "hooked"! I am now completely addicted.
>
> Yes, the controls take a bit of getting used to, and an understanding of
> basic aerodynamics. Yes it looks primitive. Yes, it is usually time-worn.
> Yes, I'd rather fly my current ship. But if it came down to a 2-33 or
> nothing---I'd take the 2-33 in a flash!
>

[BTIZ]

>>
>
> Try this. While on the ground, install the student in the front seat of a
> 2-33, ask him to open the spoilers 50% and then try to use left aileron.
> You will find the students left leg is pinned between the spoiler handle
> and the stick limiting stick travel to about 2". Now, imagine trying to
> handle a left crosswind gust just before touchdown.
>
> bildan

Perfect evaluation, I guess the controls are really not clear are they.

BT

[BTIZ]

Yes I do have a lot of time in 2-33s. And if the student cannot keep both
feet on the pedals and deploy spoilers as mentioned by Bill Daniels.. AND
MOVE FULL LEFT STICK TO THE MECHANICAL STOP... we don't fly the 2-33. We
move on to the Grob 103. And if the student is over 210#, we don't fly
period. My weight plus a 210# student will put us over gross.

Even in the 2-33, anyone large enough to have a stick actuation problem in
the 2-33 is going to require an anorexic instructor in the back seat to
remain below Max GW.

I am not anorexic or a pre-pubescent teen. I am over 50, 200 lbs and 5-10+.
I can fly front seat in the 2-33 with no control issues.

Papa3, I do hope you are not flying a 30+yr old glider over Max GW.

BT

"Papa3" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>> What happened to the pre takeoff ground check, Controls free and clear..
>> that means you can move the control (left right forward and back, all the
>> way around) all the way to the mechanical stop. Not to the leg or in some
>> cases, aft stick to the belly impact.
>>
>> If the leg is in the way, then the CFC is to big to be flying the 2-33
>> because he cannot deflect the controls to the mechanical stop. I'm
>> betting
>> that if he could have removed his left leg for the right turn, then the
>> controls would work as advertised.
>>
>>
>> BT
>
> Got a lot of time in 2-33's?? This is a common problem affecting
> anyone other than the anorexic or pre-pubescent teen students.
> Solution typically involves having the student remove opposite foot
> from rudder pedal enabling leg to be pulled back to where the thinner
> shin-bone doesn't get in the way (quite as much).
>
> Erik Mann (P3)
>

[kirk.stant]

Wow - a glider who's main attractions are:
1. it's great to crash in
2. It'll fit you if you are anorexic and/or 16
3. It'll make you appreciate "old school" aerodynamics and ergonomics
4. It's cheap, nasty, but available (wonder why?)

If retro is your thing, then have at em and enjoy! And they are OK for
rides (easy to get in and out of the front seat) and pumpkin drops (big
opening side window in the back). But I think it is a shame to still
be using 2-33s for training when there are so many better (and safer)
alternatives. And I'm convinced that we lose a lot of new glider
pilots after they get tired of wrestling the local club or FBO 2-33
around the sky for a few seasons.

I guess the argument can be made that after a 2-33, any glider seems
like glass - even a Blanik!

And 500 hours in the darn things (mostly in the backseat, fortunately)
hasn't done anything to change my opinion about them.

66

[Wallace Berry]

In article >,
Tony Verhulst > wrote:

> kirk.stant wrote:
> > Ahh yes, the joys of the wonderful 2-33; .......
> >
> > Seriously, those horrible things do more to damage the sport in the US
> > than an army of lawyers.
>
> Except, of course, when you have the inside view of a glider crash. Then
> (and only then) that's the glider you want to be in.
>
> Tony V "6N"

My wife and I once had a pretty good out-and-return in a 2-33. It was an
April day with a long dark cloudstreet stretching off to the horizon. We
got to the base at 5000 agl to find it raining and snowing a bit, much
of which seemed to find it's way into my station in the back seat. I
flew out to the end of the cloudstreet (20+ miles). Being on the edge of
serious hypothermia at that point, I let the wife fly the return leg
while I huddled down with my frozen hands in my pockets.

Trying to think of other things the 2-33 is good for... Oh, it's a great
bomb drop ship. At Caesar Creek, my wife would fly and I'd carpet bomb
the windsock target by shoving armloads of flour bombs out the back
window. Rich Griffiths and Wayne Crist had rigged up a "sport canopy" on
their privately owned 2-33. They'd make goggled, leather helmeted low
altitude runs on the target with silk scarves flapping. Pulling up
spectacularly from redline would get them a full 15 feet of extra
altitude. Plenty to scrape it around for a landing. Ah, those were the
days...

[SAM 303a]

What, you've never taken a foot off the rudder pedals so that you could lift
a leg and move the stick all the way to the fuselage wall? Don't stop when
the stick hits your leg--raise your leg and give her more aileron. I
thought that's what flying a 2-33 on a hot summer day was all about.

"Blue Crew" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> An actual conversation that quite recently took place ten thousand feet
> over the California desert between Captain Fraidy-Cat (CFC) and a
> rather happy-go-lucky glider CFI (CFIG):
>
> CFC: NO!! PLEASE! I'M SCARED!!!
>
> CFIG: What are you scared of?
>
> CFC: I DON'T KNOW!!
>
> CFIG: Then you can't be scared. You have to at least be scared of
> something. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: I'M SCARED THAT SHE'S GONNA INVERT!!
>
> CFIG: She won't. Keep your turn going.
>
> CFC: WHEN I MAKE A TURN, THE STICK IS ALL THE WAY AGAINST MY LEG AND
> IT WON'T GO ANY FURTHER!!
>
> ...but what the exhausted, flabbergasted Captain Fraidy-Cat failed to
> clarify for the CFIG was that he was referring to the OPPOSITE leg,
> i.e., when he was in a right turn, say, he had the stick all the way to
> the LEFT, pressing on his left leg, and she still seems to be on the
> verge of rolling (banking) even further to the RIGHT. And THAT is what
> he was scared of.
>
> So now we're all back on the ground in the city, all rested up and
> thinking more clearly, and the question is posed to you courageous
> gentlemen on this news group: Could the glider continue rolling with
> hard opposite aileron? Would opposite rudder (left in the above
> example) help? Type is: Schweitzer SGS 2-33.
>
> P.S. If that thing had a decent piece of yarn for a yaw string instead
> of that worn-out, raggedy, one-inch stub, this conversation might not
> have taken place as such. CFC had to fly her by feel, something
> usually reserved for more experienced glider pilots.
>

[Nyal Williams]

Ah, well. The 2-33 was designed back when Americans
were still pretty.*









*Avg male weight 170lbs; avg. female 125.


At 20:54 12 July 2006, Kirk.Stant wrote:
>Wow - a glider who's main attractions are:
>1. it's great to crash in
>2. It'll fit you if you are anorexic and/or 16
>3. It'll make you appreciate 'old school' aerodynamics
>and ergonomics
>4. It's cheap, nasty, but available (wonder why?)
>
>If retro is your thing, then have at em and enjoy!
> And they are OK for
>rides (easy to get in and out of the front seat) and
>pumpkin drops (big
>opening side window in the back). But I think it is
>a shame to still
>be using 2-33s for training when there are so many
>better (and safer)
>alternatives. And I'm convinced that we lose a lot
>of new glider
>pilots after they get tired of wrestling the local
>club or FBO 2-33
>around the sky for a few seasons.
>
>I guess the argument can be made that after a 2-33,
>any glider seems
>like glass - even a Blanik!
>
>And 500 hours in the darn things (mostly in the backseat,
>fortunately)
>hasn't done anything to change my opinion about them.
>
>66
>
>