Flatlander heading to Boulder, CO -- need sage advice

[[email protected]]

Hey all,

I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
(Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain flying
and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
We'll be loaded lightly.

Give me some good pointers if you will.

Thanks,
Biker Bill
(N6422J)

[[email protected]]

Hey Bill,

> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.

> Give me some good pointers if you will.

Please DO NOT carry extra speed on final. An aircraft flys on
INDICATED AIRSPEED! Please fly the book speeds. Yes, they really
work! Now, if there are winds, I can recommend adding to that speed
"1/2 the wind speed and all the gust speed, to a limit of 15 MPH
more than the normal approach speed".

Your GROUND speed will be greater than down at your home altitude,
but your airspeed will be correct.

There are many more myths about high density altitude and mountain
flying dispelled in the Colorado Pilots Associations Mountain Flying
and High Elevation Ground School:
http://www.coloradopilots.org/
see Mountain Flying in the left margin.
Please join us some time.

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Jim Macklin]

First off, you fly the same indicated airspeed, for the
gross weight, whether at 5 MSL or 5,000. Your TAS will be
higher and you will use more runway for take-off and
landings.
Be sure to do a review of proper leaning procedures, proper
leaning is essential to get maximum possible power on
take-off. If you have an EGT, use it to get the true best
power mixture. Otherwise, lean to maximum RPM in a full
power static run-up.
If the wind is from the west, expect turbulence from the
nearby mountains.
Get the Denver local chart.

Be amazed at the 100 plus mile visibility. Fly before it
get hot during the day.

Hire a qualified mountain CFI and go for a sight seeing
flight into the mountains if the weather is good.

The AOPA has some mountain flying articles and an
on-line course
http://www.aopa.org/asf/online_courses/mountain_flying/

download the file
http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/sa23.pdf on mountain
flying.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

> wrote in message
...
| Hey all,
|
| I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first
week of September
| with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO.
I'm a flatlander
| (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do
any mountain flying
| and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the
mountains. That's
| enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An
old pilot friend
| of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that
sort of thing.
| We'll be loaded lightly.
|
| Give me some good pointers if you will.
|
| Thanks,
| Biker Bill
| (N6422J)

[Peter R.]

> wrote:

> Give me some good pointers if you will.

Hey, Bill, I don't hold a candle to either of the two previous posters in
terms of experience, but I have been to Denver twice in the last year or
so, the most recent being last week where I landed and hangared at Erie
Muni, just east/southeast or so of Boulder.

If you can plan a before-noon arrival into Boulder, you will be less likely
to encounter strong t-storms that seem to build over the mountains during
the morning hours, then drift eastward after noon. I am not sure how
September's weather differs from July's though. Perhaps it is more benign.

I didn't heed my own advice last week and instead arrived VFR ahead of a
cell and had to scramble once down to unload the aircraft before the rain
arrived.

Also, if you haven't already, pick up a copy of the Denver Terminal chart
(even if you are IFR, in the event you want to depart VFR to pick up your
clearance) so that you know the class B shelf altitudes. Just north and
west of Denver, there are all kinds of class B altitudes for you to watch
if you are VFR.




--
Peter

[Orval Fairbairn]

In article >,
wrote:

> Hey all,
>
> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.
>
> Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
> Thanks,
> Biker Bill
> (N6422J)

One thing to practice (on a long runway) is partial power takeoffs, to
get you used to the reduced available power at Boulder (some 5000+ MSL).

This will give you some feel for what a takeoff there will look and feel
like. The airplane will fly as if it has dead weights tied to it and
feel as if the engine isn't putting out much power, because it isn't.

The previous posts to keep weight to a minimum are good, too.

[BTIZ]

Carrying extra airspeed on final is how flat landers (low landers) go long
off the end of the runway.

Fly the same speeds you would always fly at your home airport.. just be
aware, that the ground speed (TAS) will be faster and it will "appear" that
you are fast, but wings fly on IAS.

BT

> wrote in message
...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a
> flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain
> flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains.
> That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot
> friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.
>
> Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
> Thanks,
> Biker Bill
> (N6422J)

[[email protected]]

Boulder has some specific traffic conditions. The glider pattern is inside
of the
power pattern. You need to be very aware of the local traffic pattern,
especially the location and direction.

Wind can switch quickly out there. Winds can be quite a factor, and often
vary
considerably in both direction and velocity when wave conditions are
happening.

Oh, and no matter the safety considerations or anything else, don't disturb
the birds or prairie dogs. Live traps have been known to appear overnight
on the ends of the runway. We certainly don't want to endanger the
critters.



wrote in message ...
>Hey all,
>
>I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
>with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
>(Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain
flying
>and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
>enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
>of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
>We'll be loaded lightly.
>
>Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
>Thanks,
>Biker Bill
>(N6422J)

[Doug[_1_]]

Just take off in Atlanta and climb to 6500'. Stay at that altitude and
when you get to Boulder, you will be at pattern altitude! (actually
pattern altitude is 6300'). Run at full power. Lean for best rpm (at
6300'). See how far out the lean knob is? That is how far out it should
be for takeoff too (plus 3 half turns in). We lean on the ground at
runup for takeoffs at these altitudes. Learn how to do that if you
don't know how. This time of year is bumpy below the cumulus and if we
have rain, it is thunderstorms you can see and go around. So go around
them. The weather is good for flying in the summer in Colorado. Have
fun and see ya!

[Jim Macklin]

Just be aware that on a hot day in the Denver area, 35C is
possible, even higher on the air above the paved runway.
That can make the density altitude near 10,000 feet on the
surface. Take-off performance and service ceilings will be
reduced. Climb gradient will be shallow. Pack like a
backpacker. If you land with a lot of luggage, remember for
the return home, UPS and FedEx can reduce you load of
non-essentials for the departure for home.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P



> wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| wrote:
| > Hey all,
| >
| > I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first
week of September
| > with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder,
CO. I'm a flatlander
|
| To all the good things mentioned by others, I can only add
this:
| Make sure you know your density altitude calculations.
| I used to live up there in the Front Range area, of which
Boulder is a
| part. Periodically, people would crunch at the end of the
runway
| because they forgot that they are at 5000 feet, not 500
like it was
| when the took off from the bayous or coastline. It can
still be quite
| warm in September, which will raise the density altitude
even more.
|
| Have fun! It's a pretty area.
|

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.
>
> Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
> Thanks,
> Biker Bill
> (N6422J)


The real mountains begin just west of Boulder, so you will not have to
do any serious mountain flying to get to Boulder from the east. Density
altitude may be a factor, but if you are lightly loaded, that would not
be an issue either. The runway at Boulder is 4000 ft, which may seem
long, but will disappear faster than you are used to if the DA is high.
So DO NOT carry extra speed on final. If you are not comfortable with
that, land at Jeffco which is only a few miles away and has much longer
runways.

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Doug wrote:
> Just take off in Atlanta and climb to 6500'. Stay at that altitude and
> when you get to Boulder, you will be at pattern altitude! (actually
> pattern altitude is 6300'). Run at full power. Lean for best rpm (at
> 6300'). See how far out the lean knob is? That is how far out it should
> be for takeoff too (plus 3 half turns in). We lean on the ground at
> runup for takeoffs at these altitudes. Learn how to do that if you
> don't know how. This time of year is bumpy below the cumulus and if we
> have rain, it is thunderstorms you can see and go around. So go around
> them. The weather is good for flying in the summer in Colorado. Have
> fun and see ya

Good point about leaning for takeoff power. This is not even mentioned
in many checklists, and is likely to be neglected by most flatlanders.

[navghtivs]

I live in Boulder and rent a '65 Cherokee 180 there sometimes, just a
few points:

1. Your Cherokee 180 should have enough performance there as long as
your engine is in reasonable condition, I fly Cherokee 180 to Leadville
(9927ft highest public airport in North America) several times.
2. Real mountains start a few miles west of Boulder, so you won't be
flying over them from where you come from, and you can grab an
instructor in Boulder to have some real mountain flying experience --
that will be a lot of fun.
3. Remember set your mixture properly!
4. Do NOT carry extra speed, fly the same INDICATED airspeed (while the
true air speed will be higher). Boulder has 3900ft runway and that
should be enough even for a hot day, if you fly the normal indicated
airspeed.
5. For early September, the best bet is to arrive in the morning, when
the convective activity is not too high.
6. Boulder airport has glider activity, but gliders and tow planes
usually fly a tigher and lower patten and land to the parralel grass
runway on the north side, so should not be a factor most of the time.
See the Boulder traffic pattern info at:

http://www.bouldercolorado.gov/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=231&Itemid=746

Enjoy your flight.



wrote:
> Hey all,
>
> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains. That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.
>
> Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
> Thanks,
> Biker Bill
> (N6422J)

[[email protected]]

At Mile High Gliding, ask to fly gliders with Dr. John Campbell...
best of the best!

> Speaking of gliders, don't miss the opportunity to get an instructional
> glider flight while you are there. http://www.milehighgliding.com/ It is a
> great way to get a feel (I mean a real feel) for mountain flying, get a great
> introduction to the local airspace, and (incidentally) get an introduction to
> glider flying in one of the most wonderful gliding venues in our country. Last
> time I flew there,we hit 17,9XX feet and could easily see well past Denver and
> over to DEN.

> Vaughn


Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

[Jon Woellhaf]

I suggest you land at Jeffco, KBJC, rather than Boulder. It's about a half
hour from Boulder by car -- unless Hwy 36 is jammed, which it sometimes
isn't. <g>

> wrote in message
...
> Hey all,
>
> I'm planning to head out in my 68 Cherokee 180 the first week of September
> with my 20 yr old son to visit my brother in Boulder, CO. I'm a
> flatlander
> (Atlanta, Georgia area) and though I have no plans to do any mountain
> flying
> and wouldn't without instruction, I'm flying towards the mountains.
> That's
> enough to get me looking for some good advice/pointers. An old pilot
> friend
> of mine said carry more speed on final than usual, that sort of thing.
> We'll be loaded lightly.
>
> Give me some good pointers if you will.
>
> Thanks,
> Biker Bill
> (N6422J)

[navghtivs]

No, This September BJC will be in the middle of this year's
construction work, the primary runway could be closed and taxi route in
a mess, probably not good for some one who is not familiar.

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> I suggest you land at Jeffco, KBJC, rather than Boulder. It's about a half
> hour from Boulder by car -- unless Hwy 36 is jammed, which it sometimes
> isn't. <g>

[Jon Woellhaf]

True, but still better than Boulder, in my opinion.

"navghtivs" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> No, This September BJC will be in the middle of this year's
> construction work, the primary runway could be closed and taxi route in
> a mess, probably not good for some one who is not familiar.
>
> Jon Woellhaf wrote:
>> I suggest you land at Jeffco, KBJC, rather than Boulder. It's about a
>> half
>> hour from Boulder by car -- unless Hwy 36 is jammed, which it sometimes
>> isn't. <g>
>

[Ron Lee]

Several folks mentioned maintaining your normal approach speeds. What
they did not mention is that your higher than usual groundspeed may
cause you to flare too high if you use that as a guide to flaring. So
just be aware of your indicated airspeed and don't let outside visual
references tempt you to flare high.

If your plane is capable, get a knowledgeable instructor to accompany
you to Leadville.

Ron Lee

[navghtivs]

I don't know what's better in BJC: he would spend more minutes taxiing
and more minutes on the Highway 36, $0.20/gal more on the fuel, fly in
a busier traffic pattern. Unless it is for someone prefer flying in
and out on IFR plan, or afraid of the traffic procedure in a
non-towered airport, or fly an airplane too big for the 3900x75 runway,
I won't recommend BJC for someone visiting Boulder, but then each pilot
has his own preferences/priorities.


Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> True, but still better than Boulder, in my opinion.
>

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message ...
> At Mile High Gliding, ask to fly gliders with Dr. John Campbell...
> best of the best!
>
>> Speaking of gliders, don't miss the opportunity to get an instructional
>> glider flight while you are there. http://www.milehighgliding.com/ It is a
>> great way to get a feel (I mean a real feel) for mountain flying, get a great
>> introduction to the local airspace, and (incidentally) get an introduction to
>> glider flying in one of the most wonderful gliding venues in our country.
>> Last
>> time I flew there,we hit 17,9XX feet and could easily see well past Denver
>> and
>> over to DEN.
>
>> Vaughn
>
>
> Best regards,

I am sure that all of their instructors are worth flying with, but that
flight I described was with John.

Vaughn

[Blanche Cohen]

Bill:

You may want to fly into Jeffco (BJC) instead of Boulder. From a
driving POV, it's only about 15-20 min (or less, depending on
traffic). Runways are longer, fuel is more expensive, tower 6am - 10 pm,
no worries about the gliders or the locals who complain about the
noise, etc.

And yes, if you have time, go take a lesson from Jer/

[Blanche Cohen]

Doug > wrote:
>Just take off in Atlanta and climb to 6500'. Stay at that altitude and
>when you get to Boulder, you will be at pattern altitude! (actually
>pattern altitude is 6300'). Run at full power. Lean for best rpm (at
>6300'). See how far out the lean knob is? That is how far out it should
>be for takeoff too (plus 3 half turns in). We lean on the ground at
>runup for takeoffs at these altitudes. Learn how to do that if you
>don't know how. This time of year is bumpy below the cumulus and if we
>have rain, it is thunderstorms you can see and go around. So go around
>them. The weather is good for flying in the summer in Colorado. Have
>fun and see ya!
>

By September, the Tstorms will be gone (we hope!) but it'll still
be a bit warm. Mid-Kansas, go up to 8500 -- air will be
smoother (usually), and a great view of the Rockies.

[Blanche Cohen]

Jim Macklin > wrote:
>Just be aware that on a hot day in the Denver area, 35C is
>possible, even higher on the air above the paved runway.
>That can make the density altitude near 10,000 feet on the
>surface. Take-off performance and service ceilings will be
>reduced. Climb gradient will be shallow. Pack like a
>backpacker. If you land with a lot of luggage, remember for
>the return home, UPS and FedEx can reduce you load of
>non-essentials for the departure for home.

Today, it was 37-40C depending where you were.

[Jim Macklin]

It was 40 C here in Wichita today, MSL 1332, DA about 4,500.



"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin > wrote:
| >Just be aware that on a hot day in the Denver area, 35C
is
| >possible, even higher on the air above the paved runway.
| >That can make the density altitude near 10,000 feet on
the
| >surface. Take-off performance and service ceilings will
be
| >reduced. Climb gradient will be shallow. Pack like a
| >backpacker. If you land with a lot of luggage, remember
for
| >the return home, UPS and FedEx can reduce you load of
| >non-essentials for the departure for home.
|
| Today, it was 37-40C depending where you were.
|
|

[Blanche Cohen]

Jim Macklin > wrote:
>It was 40 C here in Wichita today, MSL 1332, DA about 4,500.
>
>"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
>| Jim Macklin > wrote:
>| >Just be aware that on a hot day in the Denver area, 35C
>is
>| >possible, even higher on the air above the paved runway.
>| >That can make the density altitude near 10,000 feet on
>the
>| >surface. Take-off performance and service ceilings will
>be
>| >reduced. Climb gradient will be shallow. Pack like a
>| >backpacker. If you land with a lot of luggage, remember
>for
>| >the return home, UPS and FedEx can reduce you load of
>| >non-essentials for the departure for home.
>|
>| Today, it was 37-40C depending where you were.

True, Jim. But around here, 37C means 9500 DA on the ground.
And it's why I drove to Leadville for sightseeing, while many
of the Colorado Pilots Assoc. Flew to Montrose (MTJ) for
a weekend flyin. Due to DA, I couldn't take my regular 2.2 hour
flight (couple of passes, no big deal -- usually), and the
low-er-land route would have taken me 5 hours (with a stop for
fuel). Not worth it. I've flown into Leadville, but never
got away from the airport. This time -- typical
tourist, and loved it.

[Jim Macklin]

The point is that whenever the ambient temperature is above
ISA standard, the density altitude and thus aircraft
performance will be worse. Hot days in Wichita is like a
standard day in Denver and a hot day in Denver is like
Leadville. With a non-turbocharged engine, the service
ceiling may be at the surface.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin > wrote:
| >It was 40 C here in Wichita today, MSL 1332, DA about
4,500.
| >
| >"Blanche Cohen" > wrote in message
| >| Jim Macklin >
wrote:
| >| >Just be aware that on a hot day in the Denver area,
35C
| >is
| >| >possible, even higher on the air above the paved
runway.
| >| >That can make the density altitude near 10,000 feet on
| >the
| >| >surface. Take-off performance and service ceilings
will
| >be
| >| >reduced. Climb gradient will be shallow. Pack like a
| >| >backpacker. If you land with a lot of luggage,
remember
| >for
| >| >the return home, UPS and FedEx can reduce you load of
| >| >non-essentials for the departure for home.
| >|
| >| Today, it was 37-40C depending where you were.
|
| True, Jim. But around here, 37C means 9500 DA on the
ground.
| And it's why I drove to Leadville for sightseeing, while
many
| of the Colorado Pilots Assoc. Flew to Montrose (MTJ) for
| a weekend flyin. Due to DA, I couldn't take my regular 2.2
hour
| flight (couple of passes, no big deal -- usually), and the
| low-er-land route would have taken me 5 hours (with a stop
for
| fuel). Not worth it. I've flown into Leadville, but never
| got away from the airport. This time -- typical
| tourist, and loved it.
|
|