Scottish Glider Crash

[Mike the Strike]

As reported elsewhere here, an experienced British pilot crashed his
18m turbo Ventus in a remote area of Scotland. Judging from the
photos, it looks more like an outlanding in rough terrain. The injured
pilot remained in the cockpit until he was found over 24 hours later.
Early reports suggest he'll be ok, though he has broken bones.

>From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the engine was
deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details of this one.

BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.

The incident has renewed calls for compulsory beacons in gliders in
Britain.

Mike

[Mal[_1_]]

"Mike the Strike" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> As reported elsewhere here, an experienced British pilot crashed his
> 18m turbo Ventus in a remote area of Scotland. Judging from the
> photos, it looks more like an outlanding in rough terrain. The injured
> pilot remained in the cockpit until he was found over 24 hours later.
> Early reports suggest he'll be ok, though he has broken bones.
>
>>From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the engine was
> deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details of this one.
>
> BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.
>
> The incident has renewed calls for compulsory beacons in gliders in
> Britain.
>
> Mike
>

I would never ski, four wheel drive, fly, bush walk, etc without one
compulsory or not.

Stupidity for not buying one how much is your life worth ?

[Don Johnstone]

At 16:42 12 July 2006, Mike The Strike wrote:
>As reported elsewhere here, an experienced British
>pilot crashed his
>18m turbo Ventus in a remote area of Scotland. Judging
>from the
>photos, it looks more like an outlanding in rough terrain.
> The injured
>pilot remained in the cockpit until he was found over
>24 hours later.
>Early reports suggest he'll be ok, though he has broken
>bones.
>
>>From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the
>>engine was
>deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details
>of this one.
>
>BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.
>
>The incident has renewed calls for compulsory beacons
>in gliders in
>Britain.

Only by the press who regularly demand the sacking
of the Prime Minster as well. Neither event appears
to be imminent although you never know, about the Prime
Minister I mean.

As has been pointed out by another post elsewhere,
no glider pilot has ever lost their life in the UK
because they did not have an ELT/PLB. No glider pilot
has ever had their life saved because they did have
one. Why can't it be left for each pilot to assess
the risk and act accordingly, we have enough of the
nanny state already.

Bottom line, he was found.
>
>Mike
>
>

[[email protected]]

One can only assume his radio was inoperative after the "landing",
leading me to wonder if he had any battery power just before. Glad to
hear the pilot is okay.

ELTs etc are like life insurance policies -- they only benefit the
survivor(s), not the person paying for it (or wasting endless hours
trying to figure out where and how to mount it in a V2 only to bag the
whole thing and drink beer ... ahem, real beer, yes we do have some in
the States ...)

~ted/2NO

ps for sale cheap, working ELT, never used

[Markus[_1_]]

You might be right about saving the pilot's life but you must consider
the inevitable rescue effort as well. Here the comment from someone who
was involved in the search for former 15m French world champion Gilbert
Gerbaud and co Edy Naef who fatally crashed in a Nimbus 3DM in remote
terrain near Alamogordo, NM, USA on a record flight attempt in 2001:

"It was a three day search to find the wreckage with
literally dozens of people involved. The wreck was about 12 miles from
the airport and was spotted by chance. An ELT, while it probably would
not have helped the pilots in this case, might have saved a lot of
unnecessary exposure to the hazards of flying search patterns over the
mountains. The search and rescue effort can be just as dangerous as the
activity that spawns it."

If I remember correctly there has also been a fatal accident at a
competition in the Appalachians in recent years where the pilot did
have an ELT. The fact that the wreck was found quickly because of it
did not save the pilot's life but brought rapid closure to his family
and limited the ensuing rescue effort. According to locals it might
have taken a year to find the wreck if it hadn't been for the ELT.

Another interesting case was just posted by bumper:

http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.soaring/browse_thread/thread/6a14efef1c311423/e94118278153060b?hl=en#e94118278153060b

Markus

Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 16:42 12 July 2006, Mike The Strike wrote:
> >As reported elsewhere here, an experienced British
> >pilot crashed his
> >18m turbo Ventus in a remote area of Scotland. Judging
> >from the
> >photos, it looks more like an outlanding in rough terrain.
> > The injured
> >pilot remained in the cockpit until he was found over
> >24 hours later.
> >Early reports suggest he'll be ok, though he has broken
> >bones.
> >
> >>From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the
> >>engine was
> >deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details
> >of this one.
> >
> >BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.
> >
> >The incident has renewed calls for compulsory beacons
> >in gliders in
> >Britain.
>
> Only by the press who regularly demand the sacking
> of the Prime Minster as well. Neither event appears
> to be imminent although you never know, about the Prime
> Minister I mean.
>
> As has been pointed out by another post elsewhere,
> no glider pilot has ever lost their life in the UK
> because they did not have an ELT/PLB. No glider pilot
> has ever had their life saved because they did have
> one. Why can't it be left for each pilot to assess
> the risk and act accordingly, we have enough of the
> nanny state already.
>
> Bottom line, he was found.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >

[[email protected]]

btw I want to make it clear that I am in no way *opposed* to ELTs ... I
would love to have one in my glider ... but I have a serious problem
with someone telling me I *must* have one, when there is no practical
and effective way of getting it installed.

[COLIN LAMB]

Although I fly with an ELT, they are not a guarantee that the aircraft will
be found because of it.

I am a member of a Search and Rescue team and have been involved with the
finding of a number of downed aircraft. The two cases where the ELT
survived the crash was where the crash was next to the airport, and were not
needed.

In the fatal air crashes I have been at, the ELT was destroyed and the
aircraft was only found with old fashioned search techniques. In one case,
the largest piece of the ELT was the size of a quarter.

If you are going to install an ELT, and expect it to survive a crash, it
must be installed so that it will survive, remembering that the antenna, the
feedline and the mounting are all part of the critical installation.

Just as important as the ELT is to let someone know where you are. Regular
communication during a flight with someone to update on your location and
intended flight path can be critical.

The chance of finding someone lost is greatly improved if the searchers know
where to start looking. If they do not have that information, it is like
looking for a needle in a haystack.

Colin

[Mike the Strike]

IMHO the Scottish incident is a good example of one accident that would
have benefitted from an ELT - the glider was mostly intact and the
pilot injured but incapacitated.

While I'm also agreeing they should not be not compulsory for all
gliders - training ships and twirlybirds don't need them - an ELT would
be a wise investment for pilots flying alone over inhospitable terrain.

Also filing a flight plan would not be a bad idea for flights like
this. I wonder why more glider pilots don't do this - it doesn't cost
anything!

Mike

[Mal[_1_]]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> btw I want to make it clear that I am in no way *opposed* to ELTs ... I
> would love to have one in my glider ... but I have a serious problem
> with someone telling me I *must* have one, when there is no practical
> and effective way of getting it installed.

A personal ELT can be worn should be worn through your parachute strap you
go it goes its always in easy reach.

The new beacons you can call up before you go and say I am doing gliding or
whatever they put this in the database linked the ELB number.

I volunteer as an observer for search and rescue.

Activate a ELT = you are found very quickly no ELT many aircraft persons on
ground are searching an area cost huge your life even theirs at risk.



www.mals.net

[bumper]

I'm sure most are already aware, the "standard" 121.5 / 243 Mhz ELT will no
longer trigger SARSAT / COPAS after 2008. So when we are talking PLB's, they
are 406 MHz and some have built in GPS too. For a comparison, see:

http://www.sarsat.noaa.gov/406vs121.pdf

bumper


"COLIN LAMB" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> Although I fly with an ELT, they are not a guarantee that the aircraft
> will be found because of it.
>
> I am a member of a Search and Rescue team and have been involved with the
> finding of a number of downed aircraft. The two cases where the ELT
> survived the crash was where the crash was next to the airport, and were
> not needed.
>
> In the fatal air crashes I have been at, the ELT was destroyed and the
> aircraft was only found with old fashioned search techniques. In one
> case, the largest piece of the ELT was the size of a quarter.
>
> If you are going to install an ELT, and expect it to survive a crash, it
> must be installed so that it will survive, remembering that the antenna,
> the feedline and the mounting are all part of the critical installation.
>
> Just as important as the ELT is to let someone know where you are.
> Regular communication during a flight with someone to update on your
> location and intended flight path can be critical.
>
> The chance of finding someone lost is greatly improved if the searchers
> know where to start looking. If they do not have that information, it is
> like looking for a needle in a haystack.
>
> Colin
>
>

[Mitch[_2_]]

Sadly, the little utility of ELTs and similar devices must suggest
something more disturbing for me: that almost nobody survive crashes,
even low energy/shallow ones..

Michele


Don Johnstone wrote:
> At 16:42 12 July 2006, Mike The Strike wrote:
> >As reported elsewhere here, an experienced British
> >pilot crashed his
> >18m turbo Ventus in a remote area of Scotland. Judging
> >from the
> >photos, it looks more like an outlanding in rough terrain.
> > The injured
> >pilot remained in the cockpit until he was found over
> >24 hours later.
> >Early reports suggest he'll be ok, though he has broken
> >bones.
> >
> >>From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the
> >>engine was
> >deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details
> >of this one.
> >
> >BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.
> >
> >The incident has renewed calls for compulsory beacons
> >in gliders in
> >Britain.
>
> Only by the press who regularly demand the sacking
> of the Prime Minster as well. Neither event appears
> to be imminent although you never know, about the Prime
> Minister I mean.
>
> As has been pointed out by another post elsewhere,
> no glider pilot has ever lost their life in the UK
> because they did not have an ELT/PLB. No glider pilot
> has ever had their life saved because they did have
> one. Why can't it be left for each pilot to assess
> the risk and act accordingly, we have enough of the
> nanny state already.
>
> Bottom line, he was found.
> >
> >Mike
> >
> >

[Mike the Strike]

Mitch wrote:
> Sadly, the little utility of ELTs and similar devices must suggest
> something more disturbing for me: that almost nobody survive crashes,
> even low energy/shallow ones..
>

I don't agree. Many of the non-fatal accidents are not reported at
all. I know of two accidents here in Arizona that wrecked gliders but
with only minor injuries to the pilots. Stall/spins are usually fatal
as are most accidents involving uncontrolled flight into terrain, but
most outlandings or controlled flight into terrain are survivable,
especially in newer gliders.

Mike.

[Willie]

Mike the Strike wrote:
>
> While I'm also agreeing they should not be not compulsory for all
> gliders - training ships and twirlybirds don't need them - an ELT would
> be a wise investment for pilots flying alone over inhospitable terrain.
> Mike

Breitling Watches makes a model called the "Emergency"
which can broadcast on 121.5, it is designed for just this type
of situation. Small and easy to carry in a glider.

Willie G.

[[email protected]]

Mal: I already have a personal ELT. I was referring to the Powers that
Be, like some SSA contest organizers, who insist that an ELT be
installed "in the glider".

2NO

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

bumper wrote:
> I'm sure most are already aware, the "standard" 121.5 / 243 Mhz ELT will no
> longer trigger SARSAT / COPAS after 2008. So when we are talking PLB's, they
> are 406 MHz and some have built in GPS too. For a comparison, see:
>
Relatively recently I was in a position where an ELT could have helped a
lot. As a consequence, I did a serious 'net search last year for
information about the use and purchase of ELTs in the UK. I found two
sources of 243/121.5 MHz ELTs here and nothing at all on 406 MHz ELTs
intended for aviation use.

Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.

Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[Maule Driver]

Mitch wrote:
> Sadly, the little utility of ELTs and similar devices must suggest
> something more disturbing for me: that almost nobody survive crashes,
> even low energy/shallow ones..
>
> Michele
That's just wrong. There are lots of us walking around.
Glider ELTs weren't in widespread use then but save for the randomness
of the universe, I could have died from exposure 50 yards from a mall
parking lot. Unheard, unseen and unseeable.

Safety features by definition have limited utility. The same could be
said about safety harnesses and my never used airbags. There are no
absolutes but there are consequences to one's decision making here.

[COLIN LAMB]

"Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.

Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?"

The changeover, in effect, will be worldwide. That is because the
satellites that locate the 121.5 beacon and report approximate locations
will shut down. This is the main thrust of the change. The 406 MHz signals
may or may not have gps tied in.

However, the newer beacons will continue to have a 121.5 MHz beacon for
ground searchers to locate the device. It will be lower power, however.
The older beacons will not be declared illegal and still can be used for
radiolocation - however no satellite coverage. In flat terrain, the older
ELTs might still be useful - as long as someone is looking in the general
area. Passing aircraft will still be able to hear your beacon.

Last time I looked, I found no mention of the 243 MHz signal requirement on
the new beacons, so I expect that is going away. I think that was based
upon military requirements and that has gone away.

Colin

[Mike the Strike]

Update:

>From latest photos available online it looks as if the engine was
deployed. It makes one wonder if he got into the usual trap of
motorised gliders of relying on the motor to get him out of a tricky
situation just too late for it to be effective.

I also wonder about the usefulness of a sustainer engine for retrieves
other than in flat quiet air. Several folks flying in the US west have
rejected them because of their poor power in high density altitudes.
Also they wouldn't help you if you hit a long run of 10-knot sink that
we sometimes see. I wonder if the mountain conditions he encountered
were just too much for the engine?

I also wonder if having the engine resulted in a mind-set that no ELT
would be necessary as the glider can always motor home?

BGA report awaited with interest!


Mike the Strike wrote:

> >From the accident scene photos, it doesn't appear the engine was
> deployed. It'll be interesting to hear the details of this one.
>
> BBC News Scotland has reports and video available online.

> Mike

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

COLIN LAMB wrote:
> "Now, I've read that the 2008 change over to 406 MHz ELTs is intended to
> be world-wide so I'm a bit perturbed by the lack of information or
> devices in the UK. If the changeover affects the UK, I'm rather
> unwilling to buy a 243 MHz system that will be phased out in a year.
>
> Has anybody heard anything definite about a 406 MHz change-over in the UK?"
>
> The changeover, in effect, will be worldwide. That is because the
> satellites that locate the 121.5 beacon and report approximate locations
> will shut down. This is the main thrust of the change. The 406 MHz signals
> may or may not have gps tied in.
>
> However, the newer beacons will continue to have a 121.5 MHz beacon for
> ground searchers to locate the device. It will be lower power, however.
> The older beacons will not be declared illegal and still can be used for
> radiolocation - however no satellite coverage. In flat terrain, the older
> ELTs might still be useful - as long as someone is looking in the general
> area. Passing aircraft will still be able to hear your beacon.
>
> Last time I looked, I found no mention of the 243 MHz signal requirement on
> the new beacons, so I expect that is going away. I think that was based
> upon military requirements and that has gone away.
>
Thanks for the confirmation, but who is selling aircraft-rated 406MHz
ELTs in the UK and where can I find out how to register one?

I found references to floating, boatie type 406 MHz EPIRBs that activate
on immersion but not one with impact activation.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

The Minden Soaring Club webpage recently published an article written
by Pepe Gresa, from Spain, on the exactly this subject matter:

http://mindensoaringclub.com/int2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=5

The article is informative, and stresses the fact that ELT's do save
lives...

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

wrote:
> The Minden Soaring Club webpage recently published an article written
> by Pepe Gresa, from Spain, on the exactly this subject matter:
>
> http://mindensoaringclub.com/int2/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=73&Itemid=5
>
> The article is informative, and stresses the fact that ELT's do save
> lives...
>
That's a good article, though the Filser link emphasizes the point I was
making: both their ELTs are 121.5 and 243 MHz. No mention of 406 MHz
transmitters.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 16:06 16 July 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
wrote:
>> The Minden Soaring Club webpage recently published
>>an article written
>> by Pepe Gresa, from Spain, on the exactly this subject
>>matter:
>>
>> http://mindensoaringclub.com/int2/index.php?option=com_content&ta
>>>sk=view&id=73&Itemid=5
>>
>> The article is informative, and stresses the fact
>>that ELT's do save
>> lives...
>>
>That's a good article, though the Filser link emphasizes
>the point I was
>making: both their ELTs are 121.5 and 243 MHz. No mention
>of 406 MHz
>transmitters.
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. | Essex, UK
>org |

The Wings and Wheels site has some good information
about the current ELT situation and some of the practical
issues regarding the newer 406MHz units - at:

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page13.htm

To my mind none of the currently available fixed 406
units are ideal but it seems likely that more practical
(and hopefully cheaper) models will appear over the
next couple of years. Until then I will stick with
my 121.5/243 MHz Filser ELT2.

John Galloway

[John Galloway[_1_]]

At 16:06 16 July 2006, Martin Gregorie wrote:
wrote:
>> The Minden Soaring Club webpage recently published
>>an article written
>> by Pepe Gresa, from Spain, on the exactly this subject
>>matter:
>>
>> http://mindensoaringclub.com/int2/index.php?option=com_content&ta
>>>sk=view&id=73&Itemid=5
>>
>> The article is informative, and stresses the fact
>>that ELT's do save
>> lives...
>>
>That's a good article, though the Filser link emphasizes
>the point I was
>making: both their ELTs are 121.5 and 243 MHz. No mention
>of 406 MHz
>transmitters.
>
>
>--
>martin@ | Martin Gregorie
>gregorie. | Essex, UK
>org |

The Wings and Wheels site has some good information
about the current ELT situation and some of the practical
issues regarding the newer 406MHz units - at:

http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page13.htm

To my mind none of the currently available fixed 406
units are ideal but it seems likely that more practical
(and hopefully cheaper) models will appear over the
next couple of years. Until then I will stick with
my 121.5/243 MHz Filser ELT2.

John Galloway