Testing the Testing of Mogas

[Jay Honeck]

Plop-plop, fizz-fizz... :-)

In a previous thread I outlined the new (vastly more convenient)
"alka-seltzer method" of testing your mogas for both ethanol and water
-- but (for those who missed it) here it is again:

1. Tap a few ounces of suspect gas into a cup
2. Drop 1/4 of an alka-seltzer into the gas
3. If no fizz, no alcohol or water is present, and the gas is "good"

The question was/is: Is it chemically valid to expect alka-seltzer to
fizz in the presence of alcohol?

Mary (with her minor in chemistry) and I (with my English degree that
allows me to, er, write about this) devised the following empirical
test:

Part I:

1. Purchase a bottle of 95% pure isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. While
it's not ethanol, Mary determined that the chemical make-up is similar
enough for this test.

2. Pour a few ounces into a cup.

3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the alchohol.

4. Observe results.

** Sure enough, the tablet instantly starting fizzing.**

Part II:

1. Go to gas station we always buy our gas from.

2. Pump a few ounces into a cup.

3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the cup.

4. Observe results.

** Sure enough, the tablet just sat there -- no fizz.**

Part III:

1. Add some alchohol to aforementioned cup of gas, approximating a 10%
mixture.

2. Observe results.

** Sure enough, the tablet instantly started fizzing, verifying that it
WOULD fizz if there were alcohol in the gas. **

There are a few questions yet to answer

1. Since isopropyl alchohol is 95% pure, that means that it is 5%
water. Is the tablet fizzing only because of the 5% water?

2. However, even if this were the case, would it not also be true that
the presence of ethanol in the car gas would ALSO introduce water, and
thus fizz the alka-seltzer regardless? In other words, is it
irrelevant that the alka-seltzer might only be fizzing because of the
water, if water always accompanies alcohol in gas?

Either way, the fizzing would indicate the presence of water OR
alcohol, or just alcohol that is "saturated" with water -- both of
which would indicate a "No Buy".

Right?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

> Part III: 1. Add some alchohol to aforementioned cup of gas, approximating a 10%
> mixture....

Part IV. 1: Add a tablet to pure gas, and then add alcohol (stirring)
until the tablet starts fizzing. Calculate the percentage of alcohol
needed, repeat Part III with that quantity.

Part V: Repeat Part IV, substituting water for alcohol.

Part VI: Add alka-seltzer to the beer that's in the cooler.

Ok, I just added that to see if you were paying attention. :)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

Not at all a scientific type person, so this may be a dumb question, but is
there any way to evaporate the water out of the isopropyl alcohol without
burning off the alcohol, or is the evaporation point of the alcohol lower
than that of the water? If so, could you evaporate the alcohol out of the
water, and collect the pure alcohol that way?
Crash Lander

--
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plop-plop, fizz-fizz... :-)
>
> In a previous thread I outlined the new (vastly more convenient)
> "alka-seltzer method" of testing your mogas for both ethanol and water
> -- but (for those who missed it) here it is again:
>
> 1. Tap a few ounces of suspect gas into a cup
> 2. Drop 1/4 of an alka-seltzer into the gas
> 3. If no fizz, no alcohol or water is present, and the gas is "good"
>
> The question was/is: Is it chemically valid to expect alka-seltzer to
> fizz in the presence of alcohol?
>
> Mary (with her minor in chemistry) and I (with my English degree that
> allows me to, er, write about this) devised the following empirical
> test:
>
> Part I:
>
> 1. Purchase a bottle of 95% pure isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. While
> it's not ethanol, Mary determined that the chemical make-up is similar
> enough for this test.
>
> 2. Pour a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the alchohol.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly starting fizzing.**
>
> Part II:
>
> 1. Go to gas station we always buy our gas from.
>
> 2. Pump a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the cup.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet just sat there -- no fizz.**
>
> Part III:
>
> 1. Add some alchohol to aforementioned cup of gas, approximating a 10%
> mixture.
>
> 2. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly started fizzing, verifying that it
> WOULD fizz if there were alcohol in the gas. **
>
> There are a few questions yet to answer
>
> 1. Since isopropyl alchohol is 95% pure, that means that it is 5%
> water. Is the tablet fizzing only because of the 5% water?
>
> 2. However, even if this were the case, would it not also be true that
> the presence of ethanol in the car gas would ALSO introduce water, and
> thus fizz the alka-seltzer regardless? In other words, is it
> irrelevant that the alka-seltzer might only be fizzing because of the
> water, if water always accompanies alcohol in gas?
>
> Either way, the fizzing would indicate the presence of water OR
> alcohol, or just alcohol that is "saturated" with water -- both of
> which would indicate a "No Buy".
>
> Right?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Not at all a scientific type person, so this may be a dumb question, but is
> there any way to evaporate the water out of the isopropyl alcohol without
> burning off the alcohol, or is the evaporation point of the alcohol lower
> than that of the water? If so, could you evaporate the alcohol out of the
> water, and collect the pure alcohol that way?

Dunno, but someone "up-stream" stated that it was very difficult to get
"100% pure" alcohol because it absorbs water so readily.

In fact, they said that just leaving the cap off the bottle would cause
it to become impure, because it would absorb water almost instantly.

Therefore, I presume the answer to your question is "no" -- but it's
certainly open to debate.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Part VI: Add alka-seltzer to the beer that's in the cooler.
>
> Ok, I just added that to see if you were paying attention. :)

Whew! I thought you were committing alcohol abuse there, for a
minute...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gene Seibel]

Have you tried the test in gas with ethanol?
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.

Jay Honeck wrote:
> Plop-plop, fizz-fizz... :-)
>
> In a previous thread I outlined the new (vastly more convenient)
> "alka-seltzer method" of testing your mogas for both ethanol and water
> -- but (for those who missed it) here it is again:
>
> 1. Tap a few ounces of suspect gas into a cup
> 2. Drop 1/4 of an alka-seltzer into the gas
> 3. If no fizz, no alcohol or water is present, and the gas is "good"
>
> The question was/is: Is it chemically valid to expect alka-seltzer to
> fizz in the presence of alcohol?
>
> Mary (with her minor in chemistry) and I (with my English degree that
> allows me to, er, write about this) devised the following empirical
> test:
>
> Part I:
>
> 1. Purchase a bottle of 95% pure isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. While
> it's not ethanol, Mary determined that the chemical make-up is similar
> enough for this test.
>
> 2. Pour a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the alchohol.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly starting fizzing.**
>
> Part II:
>
> 1. Go to gas station we always buy our gas from.
>
> 2. Pump a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the cup.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet just sat there -- no fizz.**
>
> Part III:
>
> 1. Add some alchohol to aforementioned cup of gas, approximating a 10%
> mixture.
>
> 2. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly started fizzing, verifying that it
> WOULD fizz if there were alcohol in the gas. **
>
> There are a few questions yet to answer
>
> 1. Since isopropyl alchohol is 95% pure, that means that it is 5%
> water. Is the tablet fizzing only because of the 5% water?
>
> 2. However, even if this were the case, would it not also be true that
> the presence of ethanol in the car gas would ALSO introduce water, and
> thus fizz the alka-seltzer regardless? In other words, is it
> irrelevant that the alka-seltzer might only be fizzing because of the
> water, if water always accompanies alcohol in gas?
>
> Either way, the fizzing would indicate the presence of water OR
> alcohol, or just alcohol that is "saturated" with water -- both of
> which would indicate a "No Buy".
>
> Right?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> Have you tried the test in gas with ethanol?

Nope.

That's next!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Crash Lander" > wrote

> Not at all a scientific type person, so this may be a dumb question, but
is
> there any way to evaporate the water out of the isopropyl alcohol without
> burning off the alcohol, or is the evaporation point of the alcohol lower
> than that of the water? If so, could you evaporate the alcohol out of the
> water, and collect the pure alcohol that way?

Having been _around_ a "hobby still", I feel somewhat qualified to answer
this.

Alcohol boils at around 187 F.. Don't everyone give me grief. I know it
isn't exact, but it has been a while, and it is not important to this
discussion. Water boils at 212 F.. The alcohol will be gone first, if
heated, or allowed to evaporate.

What you need to do, is use a still, to heat the water and alcohol, and hold
the temperature at the coils at 187 F, until nothing is condensed from the
still's cooling coils. The percentage of alcohol (not the proof) will be at
best 98 percent. It takes some very good tricks to get the rest of the
water out, that will be out of reach for a hobby type of operation.

The only answer to get pure alcohol is from chemical supply houses. That
said, I doubt very much that the alcohol produced to blend with gas is above
98 percent pure. Anyone know, for sure? If it is not 100 percent, then
there we have it; the water in the fuel we need for the test. Back to
Jose's extra test steps, to find out how much water it takes to test
positive.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [...]
> There are a few questions yet to answer
>
> 1. Since isopropyl alchohol is 95% pure, that means that it is 5%
> water. Is the tablet fizzing only because of the 5% water?

You can buy "anhydrous isopropyl alcohol". That is, greater than 99% pure.
It may well be technically impossible to get 100% pure alcohol, due to the
presence of water vapor, but obviously the amount of water available in the
air isn't enough to get the tablet to fizz, since it would carry a similar
amount into the regular gasoline with it when you dropped it into there, and
it didn't fizz at all in that.

So, IMHO question #1 is easily answered.

I'm not entirely sure I'm buying the "isopropyl alcohol and ethanol are
chemically similar enough" argument, but I definitely didn't minor in
chemistry, and that was a long time ago. I'm skeptical simply out of
nature, not because I have any real reason to disbelieve Mary's assumption.
Note, however, that they are chemically different enough that one can kill
you right away in small amounts, while the other may take years and years
except in very large doses.

> 2. However, even if this were the case, would it not also be true that
> the presence of ethanol in the car gas would ALSO introduce water, and
> thus fizz the alka-seltzer regardless? In other words, is it
> irrelevant that the alka-seltzer might only be fizzing because of the
> water, if water always accompanies alcohol in gas?

See above. IMHO, while alcohol may bring with it some small quantity of
ambient water vapor absorbed by it, I would be surprised if it were enough
to affect the results of your test. Furthermore, I agree that if a freshly
opened bottle of anhydrous isopropyl alcohol absorbs enough water to be the
sole reason for the tablet fizzing, then surely the alcohol present in gas
would have absorbed enough water to cause the same to happen.

> Either way, the fizzing would indicate the presence of water OR
> alcohol, or just alcohol that is "saturated" with water -- both of
> which would indicate a "No Buy".
>
> Right?

Sure. Though, I'd say that if you need an Alka-Seltzer to tell you that
there is just water in the gas, you're not really trying. Seems to me it's
the alcohol you really care about.

Pete

[Skywise]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in
:

> Not at all a scientific type person, so this may be a dumb question, but
> is there any way to evaporate the water out of the isopropyl alcohol
> without burning off the alcohol, or is the evaporation point of the
> alcohol lower than that of the water? If so, could you evaporate the
> alcohol out of the water, and collect the pure alcohol that way?
> Crash Lander

Having just read up on isopropyl alcohol the other day for other
reasons, I can help answer this....

[warning! I may have gone overboard on the info]

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isopropyl_alcohol

Isopropyl alcohol (also isopropanol)....

Isopropanol is a major ingredient in "dry-gas" fuel additive.
In significant quantities, water is a problem in fuel tanks as
it separates from the gasoline. If the engine tried to combust
the water instead of gasoline serious engine problems could
result. The isopropanol does not remove the water from the
gasoline. Rather, the isopropanol solubilizes the water in
the gasoline. Once soluble, the water does not pose the same
risk as insoluble water.

and...

Isopropyl alcohol forms an azeotrope* with water at 87.4% alcohol.
It is impossible to dehydrate isopropanol further using standard
distillation methods. For this reason, more expensive means, such
as using a drying agent, are necessary for production of 100%
isopropyl alcohol.

*
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Azeotrope

An azeotrope is a mixture of two or more compounds (molecules)
which at a specific composition (ratio of compounds) maintains
vapor and liquid phases which are in equilibrium and identical
in composition. Due to the uniformity of liquid and vapor,
chemical composition of the azeotrope cannot be changed by
simple boiling (distillation).


So that explains why isopropanol is difficult to purify. Also,
as others have questioned, I'm not sure isopropanol is a good
substitute for ethanol for this test.

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol

The product of either ethylene hydration or brewing is an
ethanol-water mixture. For most industrial and fuel uses,
the ethanol must be purified. Fractional distillation can
concentrate ethanol to 96% volume; the mixture of 96% ethanol
and 4% water is an azeotrope with a boiling point of 78.2 °C,
and cannot be further purified by distillation. Therefore,
95% ethanol in water is a fairly common solvent.

So both alcohols will contain some water. Although you may
be able to obtain pure isopropanol, obtaining pure ethanol
is practically impossible.

From the article on ethanol,

In most jurisdictions, the sale of ethanol, as a pure substance
or in the form of alcoholic beverages, is heavily taxed. In order
to relieve non-beverage industries of this tax burden, governments
specify formulations for denatured alcohol, which consists of
ethanol blended with various additives to render it unfit for human
consumption. These additives, called denaturants, are generally
either toxic (such as methanol) or have unpleasant tastes or odors
(such as denatonium benzoate).

Some info on Alka-Seltzer...
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alka_Seltzer

Alka-Seltzer is a combination of aspirin (acetylsalicylic acid),
baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) and citric acid...

...which are dissolved...in a glass of water. As the tablets
dissolve, the acid and bicarbonate react vigorously producing
carbon dioxide gas

From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sodium_Bicarbonate

Sodium bicarbonate, when exposed to an acid, releases carbon
dioxide and water


Based on all the above, I would surmise that Alka-Seltzer not
fizzing in gas is simply due to it not dissolving, thus not allowing
the bicarb and citric acid to mix and thus react. The presence of
ethanol or water in the fuel is what permits the dissolving of the
tablets and thus the fizzing.

In the long run, I'd say the only way to be sure is to test several
samples of fuel with known quantities of ethanol and/or water to
determine at which levels the Alka-Seltzer would react. I'd also
try several samples of known 'good' fuel as a control. You should
also verify the samples with other known good testing methods.

Oh, I'd also try crushing the tablets and trying known 'good' fuel
to see if that allows the reaction to proceed.

IHTH

Brian
--
http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?

[d&tm]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Plop-plop, fizz-fizz... :-)
>
> In a previous thread I outlined the new (vastly more convenient)
> "alka-seltzer method" of testing your mogas for both ethanol and water
> -- but (for those who missed it) here it is again:
>
> 1. Tap a few ounces of suspect gas into a cup
> 2. Drop 1/4 of an alka-seltzer into the gas
> 3. If no fizz, no alcohol or water is present, and the gas is "good"
>
> The question was/is: Is it chemically valid to expect alka-seltzer to
> fizz in the presence of alcohol?
>
> Mary (with her minor in chemistry) and I (with my English degree that
> allows me to, er, write about this) devised the following empirical
> test:
>
> Part I:
>
> 1. Purchase a bottle of 95% pure isopropyl (rubbing) alcohol. While
> it's not ethanol, Mary determined that the chemical make-up is similar
> enough for this test.
>
> 2. Pour a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the alchohol.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly starting fizzing.**
>
> Part II:
>
> 1. Go to gas station we always buy our gas from.
>
> 2. Pump a few ounces into a cup.
>
> 3. Add 1/4 tablet alka-seltzer to the cup.
>
> 4. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet just sat there -- no fizz.**
>
> Part III:
>
> 1. Add some alchohol to aforementioned cup of gas, approximating a 10%
> mixture.
>
> 2. Observe results.
>
> ** Sure enough, the tablet instantly started fizzing, verifying that it
> WOULD fizz if there were alcohol in the gas. **
>
> There are a few questions yet to answer
>
> 1. Since isopropyl alchohol is 95% pure, that means that it is 5%
> water. Is the tablet fizzing only because of the 5% water?
>
> 2. However, even if this were the case, would it not also be true that
> the presence of ethanol in the car gas would ALSO introduce water, and
> thus fizz the alka-seltzer regardless? In other words, is it
> irrelevant that the alka-seltzer might only be fizzing because of the
> water, if water always accompanies alcohol in gas?
>
> Either way, the fizzing would indicate the presence of water OR
> alcohol, or just alcohol that is "saturated" with water -- both of
> which would indicate a "No Buy".
>
> Right?
> --
> Jay
others have already commented on the alka seltzer chemisty, but a simpler
and quantitative way of measuring how much alcohol is in the fuel is to
simply mix it with water. Try 9 parts of fuel to 1 part of water in a
graduated cylinder. the alcohol will migrate to the water phase so you will
see an increase in the height of the water layer at the bottom and a
decrease in the height of the fuel layer if there is significant amount of
alcohol..
terry

[Denny]

And for all you wannabe chemists out there... Denatured alcohol
(ethanol plus a bit of methanol) is available everywhere... I have a
quart stting in front of me on my desk I picked up at the hardware
store... I use it for cleaning my glasses, camera lenses, etc..

Get 100 cc of gasoline, add 10 cc of denatured alcohol from your
favorite Home Depot, etc., add 1/4 tab of "plop, plop, fizz, fizz" and
observe... If it fizzes then you know that the test is valid as your
mixture is "gasohol"...

denny - minor in B.S., major in Obfuscation...

[Stubby]

I believe a number of different chemicals are used to denature ethanol.
Benzene for one.


Denny wrote:
> And for all you wannabe chemists out there... Denatured alcohol
> (ethanol plus a bit of methanol) is available everywhere... I have a
> quart stting in front of me on my desk I picked up at the hardware
> store... I use it for cleaning my glasses, camera lenses, etc..
>
> Get 100 cc of gasoline, add 10 cc of denatured alcohol from your
> favorite Home Depot, etc., add 1/4 tab of "plop, plop, fizz, fizz" and
> observe... If it fizzes then you know that the test is valid as your
> mixture is "gasohol"...
>
> denny - minor in B.S., major in Obfuscation...
>

[Al[_1_]]

"Skywise" > wrote in message
...
> "Crash Lander" > wrote in
> :
>
>> Not at all a scientific type person, so this may be a dumb question, but
>> is there any way to evaporate the water out of the isopropyl alcohol
>> without burning off the alcohol, or is the evaporation point of the
>> alcohol lower than that of the water? If so, could you evaporate the
>> alcohol out of the water, and collect the pure alcohol that way?
>> Crash Lander
>
> Having just read up on isopropyl alcohol the other day for other
> reasons, I can help answer this....
>
> [warning! I may have gone overboard on the info]
>

snip good stuff...

> ...which are dissolved...in a glass of water. As the tablets
> dissolve, the acid and bicarbonate react vigorously producing
> carbon dioxide gas
>

Oh No, Greenhouse Gas Warning, Global warming!




> Brian
> --
> http://www.skywise711.com - Lasers, Seismology, Astronomy, Skepticism
> Seismic FAQ: http://www.skywise711.com/SeismicFAQ/SeismicFAQ.html
> Quake "predictions": http://www.skywise711.com/quakes/EQDB/index.html
> Sed quis custodiet ipsos Custodes?


Thanks Brian. This is the neatest part of usenet. Someone out there has the
answer.

Al G

[Jay Honeck]

> others have already commented on the alka seltzer chemisty, but a simpler
> and quantitative way of measuring how much alcohol is in the fuel is to
> simply mix it with water. Try 9 parts of fuel to 1 part of water in a
> graduated cylinder. the alcohol will migrate to the water phase so you will
> see an increase in the height of the water layer at the bottom and a
> decrease in the height of the fuel layer if there is significant amount of
> alcohol..

Thanks, but this is precisely the test procedure I'm trying to
eliminate.

Carrying water around in "The Mighty Grape", and sitting at my gas
station pumps while pouring water and gas into a beaker, and shaking
it, is just too much of a pain. People in line behind me must really
wonder what the HECK I am doing! :-)

If I can get away with simply dropping a tablet in the beaker, I will
(a) eliminate the water, and (b) speed things up considerably.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Peter Duniho]

"d&tm" > wrote in message
...
> others have already commented on the alka seltzer chemisty, but a simpler
> and quantitative way of measuring how much alcohol is in the fuel is to
> simply mix it with water. [...]

I'm guessing you didn't see the earlier thread, but...your procedure is
where this all started. Jay even referenced it in his previous Alka-Seltzer
thread, when he wrote:

we have used the "water/gas/shake" test to verify that
there is no ethanol present. I find this method to be
rather imprecise and quite a pain

So, here's a gentle "yes, we already know" in reply to your suggestion. :)

Jay is attempting to come up with a test that is more foolproof, easier,
less messy, whatever.

Personally, I'm not sure that even if the Alka-Seltzer method works, it's
superior to the water-mixing method. After all, if you test by mixing
water, you just have gasahol with some water in it. You can even strain the
water out using a GATS jar if you want to use it (if the test is positive,
then in something that can tolerate ethanol, of course...like your car). If
you test it with Alka-Seltzer, now you've contaminated your fuel with an
Alka-Seltzer tablet. At the very least, you've a fuel-soaked tablet you
need to dispose of, and I'm not sure that the fuel is usable at that point,
ethanol or not. Just because the tablet didn't fizz, that doesn't mean
there aren't bits of it in the fuel.

Assuming this doesn't already exist, I think it's only a matter of time
before you can buy a fuel testing kit that is either just strips you dip
into a fuel sample, or drops you drip into a fuel sample, and which tells
you with a change of color whether there is ethanol or not in the fuel.
Either the water mixing OR the Alka-Seltzer just seems too unwieldy to me to
be practical in the long run.

Pete

[john smith]

In article >,
Skywise > wrote:

> the isopropanol solubilizes the water in the gasoline.

solubilizes.... Now that, is an interesting word!

[john smith]

In article m>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> Carrying water around in "The Mighty Grape", and sitting at my gas
> station pumps while pouring water and gas into a beaker, and shaking
> it, is just too much of a pain. People in line behind me must really
> wonder what the HECK I am doing! :-)
> If I can get away with simply dropping a tablet in the beaker, I will
> (a) eliminate the water, and (b) speed things up considerably.

After performing the test, and the fizzing commences, pour the contest
of the test tube into your tank. When they ask you what you are doing,
tell them you have discovered a magic tablet that allows you to put
water and the tablet in your tank and make your own gasoline. What they
saw you doing was testing to make certain you had the correct
proportions.

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote
> If
> you test it with Alka-Seltzer, now you've contaminated your fuel with an
> Alka-Seltzer tablet. At the very least, you've a fuel-soaked tablet you
> need to dispose of, and I'm not sure that the fuel is usable at that
point,
> ethanol or not. Just because the tablet didn't fizz, that doesn't mean
> there aren't bits of it in the fuel.

I would take an alka seltzer tablet, break it up and mix it in some fuel as
good as you can, and try it in your lawn mower. I'll bet that it wouldn't
miss a beat. If an engine can take that, surely a funnel with a filter
screen will catch all the significant chunks.

As far as the dud soaked alka seltzer tablet goes, Jay needs to soak one in
pure gas, and see if it will still alert on alcohol a few days later. If it
does, all he has to do is keep a small jar around to keep the soaked tablet
in, to use for the next purchase.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Assuming this doesn't already exist, I think it's only a matter of time
> before you can buy a fuel testing kit that is either just strips you dip
> into a fuel sample, or drops you drip into a fuel sample, and which tells
> you with a change of color whether there is ethanol or not in the fuel.
> Either the water mixing OR the Alka-Seltzer just seems too unwieldy to me to
> be practical in the long run.

Yeah, the ultimate would be a kit not unlike our pool-testing kit at
the hotel. Dip a little bit of litmus paper (or whatever it's called)
into the gas, and watch for a color change.

Invent one, Edison!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Al[_1_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> others have already commented on the alka seltzer chemisty, but a simpler
>> and quantitative way of measuring how much alcohol is in the fuel is to
>> simply mix it with water. Try 9 parts of fuel to 1 part of water in a
>> graduated cylinder. the alcohol will migrate to the water phase so you
>> will
>> see an increase in the height of the water layer at the bottom and a
>> decrease in the height of the fuel layer if there is significant amount
>> of
>> alcohol..
>
Does this mean that you can use water to REMOVE alcohol from mogas?

Fill the mighty grape. Pour in a gallon of water. Drive around to mix. Drain
the water. Ta-Da.

Al G

[Peter Duniho]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Invent one, Edison!

I would, but I'm too busy posting to Usenet.

[d&tm]

"Al" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >> others have already commented on the alka seltzer chemisty, but a
simpler
> >> and quantitative way of measuring how much alcohol is in the fuel is to
> >> simply mix it with water. Try 9 parts of fuel to 1 part of water in a
> >> graduated cylinder. the alcohol will migrate to the water phase so you
> >> will
> >> see an increase in the height of the water layer at the bottom and a
> >> decrease in the height of the fuel layer if there is significant amount
> >> of
> >> alcohol..
> >
> Does this mean that you can use water to REMOVE alcohol from mogas?
>
>I guess it does but I wouldnt reccommend this to anyone. Interestingly we
had a major fuel contamination issue in australia in 2000 which grounded
half the GA fleet , a corrosion inhibitor , diethylamine which was supposed
to be washed out of the fuel before sale, wasnt removed properly . it
reacted with brass in the fuel systems to form a black gunk which caused
some engine failures. fortunately no one was hurt ( other than financially).
the solution was to just wash the stuff out with water.
terry