Stupid Question

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry and
formally kept?
Crash Lander

--
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!

[Jose[_1_]]

> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry and
> formally kept?

It is a personal log; no national registry is kept. It is required that
any flight time that you use towards currency requirements and ratings
be logged appropriately. It is not required that all time be logged,
though as a matter of practice most pilots probably log it all. There
are rules about how the log is kept (for example, the flight conditions
(day/night, instrument, simulated instrument), the administrative
conditions ("pilot in command, second in command, single engine/multi
engine) and other things. It's basically fairly simple, although
certain nuances of the rules keep Usenet participants busy posting when
they should be flying. :)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Personal log, you buy them, there are many sizes, paper or
real leather bound. Many are now computerized. Many pilots
keep both types. Pilots are not required to log every hour
or minute, just those flights that are needed to prove some
experience, training or currency event.
see catalogs such as www.sportys.com or
http://www.aircraftspruce.com/
§ 61.51 Pilot logbooks.
(a) Training time and aeronautical experience. Each person
must document and record the following time in a manner
acceptable to the Administrator:

(1) Training and aeronautical experience used to meet the
requirements for a certificate, rating, or flight review of
this part.

(2) The aeronautical experience required for meeting the
recent flight experience requirements of this part.

(b) Logbook entries. For the purposes of meeting the
requirements of paragraph (a) of this section, each person
must enter the following information for each flight or
lesson logged:

(1) General-

(i) Date.

(ii) Total flight time or lesson time.

(iii) Location where the aircraft departed and arrived, or
for lessons in a flight simulator or flight training device,
the location where the lesson occurred.

(iv) Type and identification of aircraft, flight simulator,
or flight training device, as appropriate.

(v) The name of a safety pilot, if required by §91.109(b) of
this chapter.

(2) Type of pilot experience or training-

(i) Solo.

(ii) Pilot in command.

(iii) Second in command.

(iv) Flight and ground training received from an authorized
instructor.

(v) Training received in a flight simulator or flight
training device from an authorized instructor.

(3) Conditions of flight-

(i) Day or night.

(ii) Actual instrument.

(iii) Simulated instrument conditions in flight, a flight
simulator, or a flight training device.

(c) Logging of pilot time. The pilot time described in this
section may be used to:

(1) Apply for a certificate or rating issued under this part
or a privilege authorized under this part; or

(2) Satisfy the recent flight experience requirements of
this part.

(d) Logging of solo flight time. Except for a student pilot
performing the duties of pilot in command of an airship
requiring more than one pilot flight crewmember, a pilot may
log as solo flight time only that flight time when the pilot
is the sole occupant of the aircraft.

(e) Logging pilot-in-command flight time. (1) A sport,
recreational, private, or commercial pilot may log
pilot-in-command time only for that flight time during which
that person-

(i) Is the sole manipulator of the controls of an aircraft
for which the pilot is rated or has privileges;

(ii) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft; or

(iii) Except for a recreational pilot, is acting as pilot in
command of an aircraft on which more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is conducted.

(2) An airline transport pilot may log as pilot-in-command
time all of the flight time while acting as pilot-in-command
of an operation requiring an airline transport pilot
certificate.

(3) An authorized instructor may log as pilot-in-command
time all flight time while acting as an authorized
instructor.

(4) A student pilot may log pilot-in-command time only when
the student pilot-

(i) Is the sole occupant of the aircraft or is performing
the duties of pilot of command of an airship requiring more
than one pilot flight crewmember;

(ii) Has a current solo flight endorsement as required under
§61.87 of this part; and

(iii) Is undergoing training for a pilot certificate or
rating.

(f) Logging second-in-command flight time. A person may log
second-in-command time only for that flight time during
which that person:

(1) Is qualified in accordance with the second-in-command
requirements of §61.55 of this part, and occupies a
crewmember station in an aircraft that requires more than
one pilot by the aircraft's type certificate; or

(2) Holds the appropriate category, class, and instrument
rating (if an instrument rating is required for the flight)
for the aircraft being flown, and more than one pilot is
required under the type certification of the aircraft or the
regulations under which the flight is being conducted.

(g) Logging instrument flight time. (1) A person may log
instrument time only for that flight time when the person
operates the aircraft solely by reference to instruments
under actual or simulated instrument flight conditions.

(2) An authorized instructor may log instrument time when
conducting instrument flight instruction in actual
instrument flight conditions.

(3) For the purposes of logging instrument time to meet the
recent instrument experience requirements of §61.57(c) of
this part, the following information must be recorded in the
person's logbook-

(i) The location and type of each instrument approach
accomplished; and

(ii) The name of the safety pilot, if required.

(4) A flight simulator or approved flight training device
may be used by a person to log instrument time, provided an
authorized instructor is present during the simulated
flight.

(h) Logging training time. (1) A person may log training
time when that person receives training from an authorized
instructor in an aircraft, flight simulator, or flight
training device.

(2) The training time must be logged in a logbook and must:

(i) Be endorsed in a legible manner by the authorized
instructor; and

(ii) Include a description of the training given, the length
of the training lesson, and the authorized instructor's
signature, certificate number, and certificate expiration
date.

(i) Presentation of required documents. (1) Persons must
present their pilot certificate, medical certificate,
logbook, or any other record required by this part for
inspection upon a reasonable request by-

(i) The Administrator;

(ii) An authorized representative from the National
Transportation Safety Board; or

(iii) Any Federal, State, or local law enforcement officer.

(2) A student pilot must carry the following items in the
aircraft on all solo cross-country flights as evidence of
the required authorized instructor clearances and
endorsements-

(i) Pilot logbook;

(ii) Student pilot certificate; and

(iii) Any other record required by this section.

(3) A sport pilot must carry his or her logbook or other
evidence of required authorized instructor endorsements on
all flights.

(4) A recreational pilot must carry his or her logbook with
the required authorized instructor endorsements on all solo
flights-

(i) That exceed 50 nautical miles from the airport at which
training was received;

(ii) Within airspace that requires communication with air
traffic control;

(iii) Conducted between sunset and sunrise; or

(iv) In an aircraft for which the pilot does not hold an
appropriate category or class rating.

(5) A flight instructor with a sport pilot rating must carry
his or her logbook or other evidence of required authorized
instructor endorsements on all flights when providing flight
training.

[Doc. No. 25910, 62 FR 16298, Apr. 4, 1997; Amdt. 61-103, 62
FR 40897, July 30, 1997; Amdt. 61-104, 63 FR 20286, Apr. 23,
1998; Amdt. 61-110, 69 FR 44865, July 27, 2004]




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
| When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this
a personal log
| that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a
national registry and
| formally kept?
| Crash Lander
|
| --
| I'm not always right,
| But I'm never wrong!
|
|

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
Crash Lander

--
I'm not always right,
But I'm never wrong!
"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
>> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry
>> and formally kept?
>
> It is a personal log; no national registry is kept. It is required that
> any flight time that you use towards currency requirements and ratings be
> logged appropriately. It is not required that all time be logged, though
> as a matter of practice most pilots probably log it all. There are rules
> about how the log is kept (for example, the flight conditions (day/night,
> instrument, simulated instrument), the administrative conditions ("pilot
> in command, second in command, single engine/multi engine) and other
> things. It's basically fairly simple, although certain nuances of the
> rules keep Usenet participants busy posting when they should be flying.
> :)
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Yes, but fraud can get you in legal trouble with the feds
and professional pilots easily recognize phony hours [like
the guy who came looking for a job and claimed 1200 hours
total time and 400 hours actual instrument.] If you have
time listed that doesn't make sense, no body will trust you.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
| I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves
the whole
| 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to
fudging doesn't it?
| Crash Lander
|
| --
| I'm not always right,
| But I'm never wrong!
| "Jose" > wrote in message
| m...
| >> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is
this a personal log
| >> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a
national registry
| >> and formally kept?
| >
| > It is a personal log; no national registry is kept. It
is required that
| > any flight time that you use towards currency
requirements and ratings be
| > logged appropriately. It is not required that all time
be logged, though
| > as a matter of practice most pilots probably log it all.
There are rules
| > about how the log is kept (for example, the flight
conditions (day/night,
| > instrument, simulated instrument), the administrative
conditions ("pilot
| > in command, second in command, single engine/multi
engine) and other
| > things. It's basically fairly simple, although certain
nuances of the
| > rules keep Usenet participants busy posting when they
should be flying.
| > :)
| >
| > Jose
| > --
| > The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the
music.
| > for Email, make the obvious change in the address.
|
|

[Dave Doe]

In article >,
says...
> I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
> 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
> Crash Lander

Yes. I have a flight that I never logged - and probably never will. I
have my reasons.

However logging extra hours - well - while you're doing your training,
you'll be doing so presumably with the one organisation. So this is
easily cross-checked (as well as very foolhardy IMO). Indeed it will be
the only easy way to rebuild your logbook if you lose it.

--
Duncan

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
>> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry
>> and formally kept?
>
> It is a personal log; no national registry is kept.

There is no public national registry per se. However, the FAA does track
each active pilot's flight hours, in that they are receiving regular reports
from the pilots when they apply for new certificates (including renewal of
the medical).

That may be irrelevant for the purpose of the original poster's intent
(since the FAA is still just trusting the pilot to report accurate numbers),
but it seems worth pointing out anyway.

[Thomas Borchert]

Crash,

> That leaves the whole
> 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
>

Yep. But if you get caught having fudged, watch your insurance party with
joy - and refuse payment.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jim Macklin]

It is also grounds to revoke all certificates held.



"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in
message ...
| Crash,
|
| > That leaves the whole
| > 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to
fudging doesn't it?
| >
|
| Yep. But if you get caught having fudged, watch your
insurance party with
| joy - and refuse payment.
|
| --
| Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
|

[Gary Drescher]

"Crash Lander" > wrote in message
...
> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry
> and formally kept?

It's a personal log. But if the FAA has reason to be suspicious, they may
often be able to cross-check. Almost everyone does their primary training in
either rented or military planes; in either case, there's an independent
record of the planes' usage. At more advanced levels, pilots who fly for
airliners or some other commerical operators will likewise generate an
independent record of their flight hours. In between, though, there are
pilots who use their own planes for personal flying; those flight hours
would be harder to verify.

--Gary

[jmk]

Crash Lander wrote:
> I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
> 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
> Crash Lander

Possibly, but as others have pointed out, it's hard for someone to
significantly falsify their log book and not get caught eventually - if
those hours are actually used as a basis for something. For example, a
pilot with a few hundred hours in a little Cessna 172 could claim
thousands of hours in MD-80's and A340's - but as soon as he applied
for a job and went into the simulator... well, you get the idea.

So it does happen (pilots used to talk about logging "P-51" time; the
P-51 Mustang being a piston fighter everyone wanted to fly, but in
reality referring to only having access to the "Parker P-51" fountain
pen to write the entry in the log book <G>). Rarely does it happen
such that you actually wind up with a truly unqualified pilot at the
controls of an aircraft because he fudged the hours.

NOW - as to the hours and types of aircraft a pilot may CLAIM to have
flown, when he's at the bar and trying to pick up the sweet young thing
on the stool next to him... Well, that's another matter entirely!
{:>) [These tales traditionally start with the words, "There I
was..."]

[Crash Lander]

It is something that I would never ever do myself. It was just one of those
things I never knew about. I don't have my PPL yet, but will be starting
sometime later this year, and just wondered how it was recorded.
Thanks.
Crash Lander

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote
>
>> It is also grounds to revoke all certificates held.
>
> To the original poster:
>
> I think you can see, from the responses, that there are too many really
> "bad
> things" that can result from fudging your logbook. The possibility of
> being
> caught is certainly not worth the possible gain that could result from
> having more hours. Very few people would have a situation where just a
> few
> hours would help, and fudging a lot is too obvious to get away with.
>
> It is way too easy for someone to catch you. Also, one thing nobody
> mentioned is, you write down the aircraft along with the hours in your
> logbook. If it is a rental, or working hours, all you have to do is go
> back
> to the airplane's records, and see if you are written down as having been
> the pilot on the dates you said in your logbook.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Crash Lander]

LOL! Must remember that! "There I was...!" right after I check that the wife
isn't around! LOL!
Crash Lander

"jmk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Crash Lander wrote:
>> I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
>> 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't
>> it?
>> Crash Lander
>
> Possibly, but as others have pointed out, it's hard for someone to
> significantly falsify their log book and not get caught eventually - if
> those hours are actually used as a basis for something. For example, a
> pilot with a few hundred hours in a little Cessna 172 could claim
> thousands of hours in MD-80's and A340's - but as soon as he applied
> for a job and went into the simulator... well, you get the idea.
>
> So it does happen (pilots used to talk about logging "P-51" time; the
> P-51 Mustang being a piston fighter everyone wanted to fly, but in
> reality referring to only having access to the "Parker P-51" fountain
> pen to write the entry in the log book <G>). Rarely does it happen
> such that you actually wind up with a truly unqualified pilot at the
> controls of an aircraft because he fudged the hours.
>
> NOW - as to the hours and types of aircraft a pilot may CLAIM to have
> flown, when he's at the bar and trying to pick up the sweet young thing
> on the stool next to him... Well, that's another matter entirely!
> {:>) [These tales traditionally start with the words, "There I
> was..."]
>

[Jim Macklin]

The ratios of time in type and conditions often catch the
liars.

Those bar room tales often start with, " I used to fly for
the CIA, I'd tell you more about it, but then I'd have to
kill you."


One thing you'll likely never see in a pilot's logbook...
Jan3,2009 CE208B stolen at SAT round trip to Mexicalli,
2000 pounds dope, 5 hours X-C 3 hours IMC, no flight plan,
N12345xxx , unless the pilot is really stupid and wants the
turbine for an airline job.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P


"jmk" > wrote in message
oups.com...
|
| Crash Lander wrote:
| > I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That
leaves the whole
| > 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to
fudging doesn't it?
| > Crash Lander
|
| Possibly, but as others have pointed out, it's hard for
someone to
| significantly falsify their log book and not get caught
eventually - if
| those hours are actually used as a basis for something.
For example, a
| pilot with a few hundred hours in a little Cessna 172
could claim
| thousands of hours in MD-80's and A340's - but as soon as
he applied
| for a job and went into the simulator... well, you get the
idea.
|
| So it does happen (pilots used to talk about logging
"P-51" time; the
| P-51 Mustang being a piston fighter everyone wanted to
fly, but in
| reality referring to only having access to the "Parker
P-51" fountain
| pen to write the entry in the log book <G>). Rarely does
it happen
| such that you actually wind up with a truly unqualified
pilot at the
| controls of an aircraft because he fudged the hours.
|
| NOW - as to the hours and types of aircraft a pilot may
CLAIM to have
| flown, when he's at the bar and trying to pick up the
sweet young thing
| on the stool next to him... Well, that's another matter
entirely!
| {:>) [These tales traditionally start with the words,
"There I
| was..."]
|

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote

> It is also grounds to revoke all certificates held.

To the original poster:

I think you can see, from the responses, that there are too many really "bad
things" that can result from fudging your logbook. The possibility of being
caught is certainly not worth the possible gain that could result from
having more hours. Very few people would have a situation where just a few
hours would help, and fudging a lot is too obvious to get away with.

It is way too easy for someone to catch you. Also, one thing nobody
mentioned is, you write down the aircraft along with the hours in your
logbook. If it is a rental, or working hours, all you have to do is go back
to the airplane's records, and see if you are written down as having been
the pilot on the dates you said in your logbook.
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Natalie]

Crash Lander wrote:
> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry and
> formally kept?
> Crash Lander
>

The closest that comes to a national databse is that the NTSB can go
pull the medical applications and application for ratings (where you
self declare your hours).

[Private]

"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
...
> "Crash Lander" > wrote in message
> ...
>> When pilots quote how many hours they have logged, is this a personal log
>> that is kept, or is every hour you fly entered into a national registry
>> and formally kept?
>
> It's a personal log. But if the FAA has reason to be suspicious, they may
> often be able to cross-check. Almost everyone does their primary training
> in either rented or military planes; in either case, there's an
> independent record of the planes' usage. At more advanced levels, pilots
> who fly for airliners or some other commerical operators will likewise
> generate an independent record of their flight hours. In between, though,
> there are pilots who use their own planes for personal flying; those
> flight hours would be harder to verify.
>
> --Gary
>

I once spoke to an owner who said that his way of controlling maintenance
costs was, "If he didn't log the flight, then the aircraft didn't either."

[Robert M. Gary]

Its just like your taxes. The feds ask you for your times every once in
awhile (like during your medical) and you have to sign that the facts
are correct.

-Robert


Crash Lander wrote:
> I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
> 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
> Crash Lander

[Robert M. Gary]

Plus if your logs show 5000 hours in your aircraft the feds can always
ask to look at the aircraft log books. If its in a rental aircraft the
FBO will certainly have logs of it. It would probably be easy to
overstate things by 10% but it wouldn't buy you enough to risk it.
Overstating more than that would start to get easier to check.

There is the famous story (or legend) of a guy shownig up for his
multi-ATP ride with lots of multiengine time. The examiner looks
through his log book and see the N number for the multi-engine plane is
that same as the plane parked on the ramp, which just happens to be
owned by the examiner!

-Robert


Dave Doe wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
> > I'm surprised. I never knew how it all worked. That leaves the whole
> > 'minimum number of hours required' thing a bit open to fudging doesn't it?
> > Crash Lander
>
> Yes. I have a flight that I never logged - and probably never will. I
> have my reasons.
>
> However logging extra hours - well - while you're doing your training,
> you'll be doing so presumably with the one organisation. So this is
> easily cross-checked (as well as very foolhardy IMO). Indeed it will be
> the only easy way to rebuild your logbook if you lose it.
>
> --
> Duncan

[Bob Martin]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Did he have an "on/off" switch on his tach? How did he manage that??
>
> -Robert
>
>
> Private wrote:
>> I once spoke to an owner who said that his way of controlling maintenance
>> costs was, "If he didn't log the flight, then the aircraft didn't either."
>

One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
engine keeps running... and no time logged.

[Jose[_1_]]

> One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The engine keeps running... and no time logged.

Doesn't the hobbs usually bypass the master, like the clock?

I rented from one outfit that connected the hobbs to the master, and
nothing else (no oil pressure sensor). I clicked off a few tenths doing
my preflight, setting up radios, etc, before I caught on.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Plus if your logs show 5000 hours in your aircraft the feds can always
> ask to look at the aircraft log books. If its in a rental aircraft the
> FBO will certainly have logs of it.

Not without one hell of a lot legwork. If I claim to have rented planes
all over the country the FAA will have a lot of work to do to prove I
didn't.

[Robert M. Gary]

Newps wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > Plus if your logs show 5000 hours in your aircraft the feds can always
> > ask to look at the aircraft log books. If its in a rental aircraft the
> > FBO will certainly have logs of it.
>
> Not without one hell of a lot legwork. If I claim to have rented planes
> all over the country the FAA will have a lot of work to do to prove I
> didn't.

But if the FAA suspected you had inflated your log book you can bet
they would. In fact there have been several scandals in which the FAA
has done just that.
-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Bob Martin wrote:
> One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
> engine keeps running... and no time logged.

Strangest tach I've ever seen. With the exception of a few digital
tachs, all the ones I've seen have been geared with the engine and work
just great w/o power.

-Robert

[Jose[_1_]]

> If I claim to have rented planes all over the country the FAA will have a lot of work to do to prove I didn't.

Isn't it up to you to prove you did?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Some aircraft have the Hobbs meter wired to the flap CB.



"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ps.com...
| Did he have an "on/off" switch on his tach? How did he
manage that??
|
| -Robert
|
|
| Private wrote:
| > I once spoke to an owner who said that his way of
controlling maintenance
| > costs was, "If he didn't log the flight, then the
aircraft didn't either."
|

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Bob Martin wrote:
> > One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
> > engine keeps running... and no time logged.
>
> Strangest tach I've ever seen. With the exception of a few digital
> tachs, all the ones I've seen have been geared with the engine and work
> just great w/o power.

Some people may have a tach without hours, and instead have an electric
hobbs meter.
--
Jim in NC

[karl gruber[_1_]]

Yea.........The one I remember most is where the FAA inspectors were handing
out type ratings to each other.

Karl
"Curator" N185KG


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Newps wrote:
>> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>>
>> > Plus if your logs show 5000 hours in your aircraft the feds can always
>> > ask to look at the aircraft log books. If its in a rental aircraft the
>> > FBO will certainly have logs of it.
>>
>> Not without one hell of a lot legwork. If I claim to have rented planes
>> all over the country the FAA will have a lot of work to do to prove I
>> didn't.
>
> But if the FAA suspected you had inflated your log book you can bet
> they would. In fact there have been several scandals in which the FAA
> has done just that.
> -Robert
>

[Newps]

Jose wrote:

>> If I claim to have rented planes all over the country the FAA will
>> have a lot of work to do to prove I didn't.
>
>
> Isn't it up to you to prove you did?

I did, it's in the logbook. Somebody else is the one suggesting the
times are fake. They are responsible for proving me wrong.

[Jose[_1_]]

>> Isn't it up to you to prove you did?
>
> I did, it's in the logbook.

No, what's in the logbook is your statement, nothing more. It's a
claim, not proof.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

The Korean war vet who did not convert his military flying
to a FAA commercial, but got a pad of temp certificates and
wrote himself a commercial and when it was time to become
captain, wrote himself an ATP. They finally caught him.



"karl gruber" > wrote in message
...
| Yea.........The one I remember most is where the FAA
inspectors were handing
| out type ratings to each other.
|
| Karl
| "Curator" N185KG
|
|
| "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| >
| > Newps wrote:
| >> Robert M. Gary wrote:
| >>
| >> > Plus if your logs show 5000 hours in your aircraft
the feds can always
| >> > ask to look at the aircraft log books. If its in a
rental aircraft the
| >> > FBO will certainly have logs of it.
| >>
| >> Not without one hell of a lot legwork. If I claim to
have rented planes
| >> all over the country the FAA will have a lot of work to
do to prove I
| >> didn't.
| >
| > But if the FAA suspected you had inflated your log book
you can bet
| > they would. In fact there have been several scandals in
which the FAA
| > has done just that.
| > -Robert
| >
|
|

[Emily[_1_]]

jmk wrote:
<snip>
>
> NOW - as to the hours and types of aircraft a pilot may CLAIM to have
> flown, when he's at the bar and trying to pick up the sweet young thing
> on the stool next to him... Well, that's another matter entirely!
> {:>) [These tales traditionally start with the words, "There I
> was..."]

Hehehehe...I met a guy at the airport bar once who claimed he flew 737's
for American and was laying it on pretty thick. It was pretty funny,
and pretty obvious to me that he was faking it...especially when he
flashed his "jet license" at me. Not sure what the back said, but the
front definitely said "private pilot"! I said how impressed I was, then
opened my purse and started fiddling with my four certificates. lol He
backed off pretty quick after that.

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
. com...
>>> Isn't it up to you to prove you did?
>> I did, it's in the logbook.
>
> No, what's in the logbook is your statement, nothing more. It's a claim,
> not proof.

It is the legally required documentation, however. You are confusing
scientific proof (which requires complete, flawless documentation) with
legal proof (which requires only that one comply with the legal
requirements).

There's no way the FAA can expect a pilot to be able to provide independent
documentation of every single flight hour in their logbook.

Just as an example: I am now on my third Hobbs meter in my airplane. The
previous two have since been destroyed (thrown away). There is no paper
trail, other than my mechanic's say-so, that the meter was replaced at the
time claimed in the logbook. And other than the Hobbs meter, there is
absolutely no documentation of actual hours flown in my airplane (for that
matter, even if I had the original Hobbs meter, I could easily just activate
it and let it run without bothering to fly).

The closest thing that one might come to additional documentation is fuel
purchase records but a) I don't keep those records, b) I doubt the credit
card companies keep those records indefinitely, c) not all of my fuel
purchases were even made with a credit card, and d) even if the records were
available, they are impossible to translate directly and accurately into
flight hours.

There are plenty of other examples of "no paper trail" flight hours, and the
pilot's inability to provide that paper trail is NOT grounds for the FAA
taking action against the pilot. To make their case stick, they would have
to demonstrate positively that flight hours recorded in the logbook were not
flown.

Which they do. The thought that the FAA wouldn't do the legwork required to
examine each and every hour of a logbook of a pilot they suspected of
cheating is silly. That's the examiner's job, and if they have good reason
to believe they are logging fake hours, they're going to do that legwork.
If for no other reason than to prove themselves right.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
.com...
>> One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
>> engine keeps running... and no time logged.
>
> Doesn't the hobbs usually bypass the master, like the clock?

Some do, some don't. As you've seen yourself, the actual installation of
the Hobbs meter varies. The most common is to hook it directly to the power
source through an oil pressure switch, but some go through the master
(either in addition or instead of), some are hooked to a gear squat switch,
some may be hooked to some airspeed sensor, or manifold pressure sensor, or
whatever.

Pete

[Peter Duniho]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Bob Martin wrote:
>> One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
>> engine keeps running... and no time logged.
>
> Strangest tach I've ever seen. With the exception of a few digital
> tachs, all the ones I've seen have been geared with the engine and work
> just great w/o power.

It sounds to me as though you are assuming that the airplane in question had
an hour meter in the tachometer, or that it had an hour meter at all.

Hour meters are not required by regulation, nor do all airplanes with hour
meters have one built into the tach.

Of course, the message to which you've replied most recently most likely was
not intended as a direct reply to the original "If he didn't log the flight,
then the aircraft didn't either" comment anyway, and was likely referring to
an electrically powered Hobbs meter, which do sometimes wind up switched
through the master.

Pete

[tom418[_1_]]

In two airplanes that I own(ed), (Piper Seneca and Piper Cherokee) the hobbs
is poswered directly from the battery, through an inline fuse, and through
an oil pressure switch on an engine. Turning off the master would have no
effect.
"Jose" > wrote in message
.com...
> > One trick an instructor showed me... cut the master switch off. The
engine keeps running... and no time logged.
>
> Doesn't the hobbs usually bypass the master, like the clock?
>
> I rented from one outfit that connected the hobbs to the master, and
> nothing else (no oil pressure sensor). I clicked off a few tenths doing
> my preflight, setting up radios, etc, before I caught on.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.