Rec.Aviation OSH report

[Jim Burns]

I just got off the phone with Jay Honeck. The group that had left KIOW this
morning arrived at OSH after several holds and an accident on 9/27. Rumors
are that a Cherokee pilot perished in an air to ground crash. No other
details.

For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday night, Jay
and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on the NORTH side
of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to Friar Tucks.

Good luck to all that are inbound to OSH and fly safe.

See you Wednesday

Jim Burns

[Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)]

It wasn't a very good week as far as accidents go. The Cherokee rumor
was actually an Europa. Two people died in that crash. This morning a
TBM taxied into an RV6 killing the passenger.
http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/OSH/60730005/1987

Then there's the F-86 in North Carolina that was on it's way to OSH.

On the not-in-motion type of accident, there was a storm in Appleton
this morning that damaged a Maule and a Bonanza.
http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=ddaea35a-db4c-4566-bc58-a0f147b03c58&

Wunderground.com shows the wind this morning peaked at 40 gusting to 58 MPH

Jim Burns wrote:
> I just got off the phone with Jay Honeck. The group that had left KIOW this
> morning arrived at OSH after several holds and an accident on 9/27. Rumors
> are that a Cherokee pilot perished in an air to ground crash. No other
> details.
>
> For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday night, Jay
> and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on the NORTH side
> of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to Friar Tucks.
>
> Good luck to all that are inbound to OSH and fly safe.
>
> See you Wednesday
>
> Jim Burns
>
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Two people died in that crash. This morning a
> TBM taxied into an RV6 killing the passenger.
> http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/OSH/60730005/1987

God, that's awful. That must've happened mere minutes after we
departed...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address)]

Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.

An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
miles out from Chicago.
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea

The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.


Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
> It wasn't a very good week as far as accidents go. The Cherokee rumor
> was actually an Europa. Two people died in that crash. This morning a
> TBM taxied into an RV6 killing the passenger.
> http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/OSH/60730005/1987
>
>
> Then there's the F-86 in North Carolina that was on it's way to OSH.
>
> On the not-in-motion type of accident, there was a storm in Appleton
> this morning that damaged a Maule and a Bonanza.
> http://www.aero-news.net/index.cfm?ContentBlockID=ddaea35a-db4c-4566-bc58-a0f147b03c58&
>
>
> Wunderground.com shows the wind this morning peaked at 40 gusting to 58 MPH
>
> Jim Burns wrote:
>> I just got off the phone with Jay Honeck. The group that had left
>> KIOW this morning arrived at OSH after several holds and an accident
>> on 9/27. Rumors are that a Cherokee pilot perished in an air to
>> ground crash. No other details.
>>
>> For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday
>> night, Jay and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on
>> the NORTH side of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to
>> Friar Tucks.
>>
>> Good luck to all that are inbound to OSH and fly safe.
>>
>> See you Wednesday
>>
>> Jim Burns
>>

[Emily[_1_]]

Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
> Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.
>
> An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
> miles out from Chicago.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
>
>
> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
> cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
> able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.
>
The article also says it was unclear what the two were doing in OSH.
Um, ok.

[Jay Honeck]

> > An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
> > miles out from Chicago.
> > The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
> > cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
> > able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.
> >
> The article also says it was unclear what the two were doing in OSH.

The real question is: What's a Cub doing beyond gliding distance from
land? The Chicago VFR cooridor is right over the shoreline, so
there's no need to be 4 miles out.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Dave Stadt]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> > An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
>> > miles out from Chicago.
>> > The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>> > cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
>> > able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.
>> >
>> The article also says it was unclear what the two were doing in OSH.
>
> The real question is: What's a Cub doing beyond gliding distance from
> land? The Chicago VFR cooridor is right over the shoreline, so
> there's no need to be 4 miles out.

Report is they both got out OK but the pilot could not keep his head above
water. The lake was calm with 1 foot waves. Had they been closer to shore
there was enough boat activity they both would have had a much better chance
of being rescued.

> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Paul,

> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
> cushion,
>

Crossing the lake without life jackets?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Ron Natalie]

Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
> Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.
>
> An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
> miles out from Chicago.
> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
>
>
I heard that mayday call, it was chilling. We were about
30 miles SE of Gary (we had landed there for lunch...we had
booked out of OSH without eating to get out before the airshow).
We still had Gary Tower dialed up when the call came in. I
started to turn around and put the Chicago Approach frequency
in but they were already vectoring a Gary departure to the
area to look.

[Ron Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>> Two people died in that crash. This morning a
>> TBM taxied into an RV6 killing the passenger.
>> http://www.thenorthwestern.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060730/OSH/60730005/1987
>
> God, that's awful. That must've happened mere minutes after we
> departed...
> --
It happened before we left. We saw all the emergency equipment
just north of the displaced RWY 18 threshold where we departed
from around 1PM.

[Emily[_1_]]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Paul,
>
>> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>> cushion,
>>
>
> Crossing the lake without life jackets?
>
People do it all the time. I had students up there who thought there
was NOTHING wrong with being outside of gliding range from shore.
"What's the big deal? I can land in water and just swim back..."

Unfortunately, it's very hard to teach intelligence.

[[email protected]]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
> > Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.
> >
> > An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
> > miles out from Chicago.
> > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
> >
> >
> I heard that mayday call, it was chilling. We were about
> 30 miles SE of Gary (we had landed there for lunch...we had
> booked out of OSH without eating to get out before the airshow).
> We still had Gary Tower dialed up when the call came in. I
> started to turn around and put the Chicago Approach frequency
> in but they were already vectoring a Gary departure to the
> area to look.

And Chicago FD has to fish these aviators out; what no one willing
to wait for the USCG ???

Who on RAP said that Chicago's authority only goes 1 mile out ??

[Travis Marlatte]

I can't imagine what those two would have been doing in Oshkosh this time of
year...

Apparently, the Chicago Trib has no pilots of any kind on staff. The Sun
Time did better but not much.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"Emily" > wrote in message
. ..
> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>> Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.
>>
>> An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4 miles
>> out from Chicago.
>> http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
>> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>> cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
>> able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.
>>
> The article also says it was unclear what the two were doing in OSH. Um,
> ok.

[Travis Marlatte]

You could be up at 3000 feet there so it could have been gliding distance.
However, they were reportedly going into Gary so maybe they were staying
low.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> > An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
>> > miles out from Chicago.
>> > The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>> > cushion, but he got separated from the older pilot. They haven't been
>> > able to find him as of 10 PM CDT.
>> >
>> The article also says it was unclear what the two were doing in OSH.
>
> The real question is: What's a Cub doing beyond gliding distance from
> land? The Chicago VFR cooridor is right over the shoreline, so
> there's no need to be 4 miles out.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Travis Marlatte]

4 miles out isn't exactly crossing the lake. Of course, that is where they
ended up. Reportedly they were going into Gary so they wouldn't have been
much further out if they had followed a straight line from KOSH.

I haven't heard much detail from the the passenger's story. All I heard was
that they thought they were having engine trouble. Maybe they were trying to
nurse it into Gary.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
"Emily" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>>> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>>> cushion,
>>>
>>
>> Crossing the lake without life jackets?
>>
> People do it all the time. I had students up there who thought there was
> NOTHING wrong with being outside of gliding range from shore. "What's the
> big deal? I can land in water and just swim back..."
>
> Unfortunately, it's very hard to teach intelligence.

[Travis Marlatte]

Chicago Police authority goes out 3 miles but they are not shy about sharing
with USCG-AUX. No life so cheap as to be territorial.

--
-------------------------------
Travis
Lake N3094P
PWK
> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Ron Natalie wrote:
>> Paul Dow (Remove Caps in mail address) wrote:
>> > Oh no. Another one down leaving OSH about 6 hours ago.
>> >
>> > An American Legend Cub lost engine power over Lake Michigan about 4
>> > miles out from Chicago.
>> > http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/custom/newsroom/chi-060730plane-crash,0,6816065.story?coll=chi-homepagepromo440-fea
>> >
>> >
>> I heard that mayday call, it was chilling. We were about
>> 30 miles SE of Gary (we had landed there for lunch...we had
>> booked out of OSH without eating to get out before the airshow).
>> We still had Gary Tower dialed up when the call came in. I
>> started to turn around and put the Chicago Approach frequency
>> in but they were already vectoring a Gary departure to the
>> area to look.
>
> And Chicago FD has to fish these aviators out; what no one willing
> to wait for the USCG ???
>
> Who on RAP said that Chicago's authority only goes 1 mile out ??
>

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Jim Burns wrote:
> I just got off the phone with Jay Honeck. The group that had left KIOW this
> morning arrived at OSH after several holds and an accident on 9/27. Rumors
> are that a Cherokee pilot perished in an air to ground crash. No other
> details.
>
> For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday night, Jay
> and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on the NORTH side
> of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to Friar Tucks.
>
> Good luck to all that are inbound to OSH and fly safe.
>
> See you Wednesday
>
> Jim Burns


I did not make OSH this year. Last year LSA and VLJ were high on the
list as well as inexpensive EFIS products. If one were to summarize
this year's OSH, what would you say?

[.Blueskies.]

"Andrew Sarangan" > wrote in message ps.com...
: Jim Burns wrote:
: > I just got off the phone with Jay Honeck. The group that had left KIOW this
: > morning arrived at OSH after several holds and an accident on 9/27. Rumors
: > are that a Cherokee pilot perished in an air to ground crash. No other
: > details.
: >
: > For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday night, Jay
: > and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on the NORTH side
: > of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to Friar Tucks.
: >
: > Good luck to all that are inbound to OSH and fly safe.
: >
: > See you Wednesday
: >
: > Jim Burns
:
:
: I did not make OSH this year. Last year LSA and VLJ were high on the
: list as well as inexpensive EFIS products. If one were to summarize
: this year's OSH, what would you say?
:

Honda jet and Cessna...

[Emily[_1_]]

Travis Marlatte wrote:
> You could be up at 3000 feet there so it could have been gliding distance.
> However, they were reportedly going into Gary so maybe they were staying
> low.
>
I wouldn't want to end up in the water off Gary, even within swimming
distance.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Andrew Sarangan" > said:
>I did not make OSH this year. Last year LSA and VLJ were high on the
>list as well as inexpensive EFIS products. If one were to summarize
>this year's OSH, what would you say?

Where I was: LSA (esp Cessna), VLJ, F-22, XM-WX, Sean D. Tucker, heat and
lots and lots of walking.

The kit manufacturers were hard to find.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I assume HR did send out the ad I wanted, not "apply for a cool job if
you're a clueless ****".
-- The Flying Hamster, on the receiving end of too many CVs

[Roger[_4_]]

On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 07:29:01 -0500, Emily >
wrote:

>Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Paul,
>>
>>> The article says the passenger was able to stay afloat using a seat
>>> cushion,
>>>
>>
>> Crossing the lake without life jackets?
>>
>People do it all the time. I had students up there who thought there
>was NOTHING wrong with being outside of gliding range from shore.
>"What's the big deal? I can land in water and just swim back..."

Depends on your risk tolerance level.

>
>Unfortunately, it's very hard to teach intelligence.

I know many who cross the lake single engine and do it regularly
myself and have for years. Life jackets are a necessity as I can't
swim but the lake is too cold for long survival even in summer.

OTOH if I cross even at 8000 between Ludington and MTW I'm always
within gliding distance. 10,000 gives me lots of decision time.

Some consider it foolhardy and I consider it just a days flying.

I've flown across when visibility was legal VFR but over the lake
that's pretty much elstinko. Last time I headed across like that I
had a "whole bunch" of planes lined up behind me. I think they were
using me for the horizon.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Thomas Borchert]

Blueskies.,

> Honda jet and Cessna...
>

Cessan vaporware, that is.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Roger" > wrote in message
...
>
> I know many who cross the lake single engine and do it regularly
> myself and have for years. Life jackets are a necessity as I can't
> swim but the lake is too cold for long survival even in summer.
>

So you wear the life jacket so your body may be found?

[Dan Luke]

"Thomas Borchert" wrote:

>> Honda jet and Cessna...
>>
>
> Cessan vaporware, that is.

Two flying prototypes...vaporware?

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Thomas Borchert" wrote:
>
> >> Honda jet and Cessna...
> >>
> >
> > Cessan vaporware, that is.
>
> Two flying prototypes...vaporware?

Yeah, not what I would consider vaporware, either.
--
Jim in NC

[Thomas Borchert]

Dan,

> Two flying prototypes...vaporware?
>

Proof of concept, not prototypes.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Matt Whiting]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Roger" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I know many who cross the lake single engine and do it regularly
>>myself and have for years. Life jackets are a necessity as I can't
>>swim but the lake is too cold for long survival even in summer.
>>
>
>
> So you wear the life jacket so your body may be found?
>
>

Sure, it gives the family closure.

Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Dan,
>
>
>>Two flying prototypes...vaporware?
>>
>
>
> Proof of concept, not prototypes.

No, they are prototypes. The concept of light jets was proven decades
ago so Honda isn't proving any concept with their Jet. Likewise,
composite light planes are a proven concept as well so neither is Cessna
proving any concept. I'll bet if they move to production the production
versions will look a lot like these prototypes, thus confirming that
they are prototypes.

Matt

[Ken Finney]

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>
>> Dan,
>>
>>
>>>Two flying prototypes...vaporware?
>>>
>>
>>
>> Proof of concept, not prototypes.
>
> No, they are prototypes. The concept of light jets was proven decades ago
> so Honda isn't proving any concept with their Jet. Likewise, composite
> light planes are a proven concept as well so neither is Cessna proving any
> concept. I'll bet if they move to production the production versions will
> look a lot like these prototypes, thus confirming that they are
> prototypes.
>
> Matt

I am guessing that for tax purposes, calling it a "proof of concept" is
better than calling it a "prototype".

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 21:44:10 GMT, "Ken Finney" >
wrote:
>
> I am guessing that for tax purposes, calling it a "proof of concept" is
> better than calling it a "prototype".

Don't know why it would make a difference, tax-wise.

My guess is that it's a combination of factors. "Prototype" implies it is the
first aircraft of a series of aircraft, and Cessna may not yet have Board of
Directors' approval to start production.

Also, if major changes have to be made (such as a switch to another engine), the
"spin control" is easier with a "Proof of Concept." Big changes between the
"Prototype" and the production aircraft implies some faulty decisions during the
design process, but if you call it a "Proof of Concept" you can just claim,
"Well, we were just trying different ideas, pushing the envelope, that sort of
thing." Then you build a "prototype" that closely matches the production model.

Ron Wanttaja

[Ken Finney]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 21:44:10 GMT, "Ken Finney"
> >
> wrote:
>>
>> I am guessing that for tax purposes, calling it a "proof of concept" is
>> better than calling it a "prototype".
>
> Don't know why it would make a difference, tax-wise.
>
> My guess is that it's a combination of factors. "Prototype" implies it is
> the
> first aircraft of a series of aircraft, and Cessna may not yet have Board
> of
> Directors' approval to start production.
>
> Also, if major changes have to be made (such as a switch to another
> engine), the
> "spin control" is easier with a "Proof of Concept." Big changes between
> the
> "Prototype" and the production aircraft implies some faulty decisions
> during the
> design process, but if you call it a "Proof of Concept" you can just
> claim,
> "Well, we were just trying different ideas, pushing the envelope, that
> sort of
> thing." Then you build a "prototype" that closely matches the production
> model.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I live for tax law, but I've never owned a manufacturing company. ;^)

I'm guessing that a "proof of concept" is research and development, and
therefore deductable in the year it occurs, whereas the tooling etcetera for
a prototype would have to be amortized over time.

[RST Engineering]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...


> I can't figure out why they chose the Rotax. Wouldn't an O-200 work well
> in
> that plane?

WEight
Performance
1970s technology (aot 1930s)
Auto gas
Less expensive initial and parts
Reliability



>
> I'll bet the FBO's would be more comfortable with a regular 'ole engine in
> it, that they know and understand how to work on.

These are destined to be the "regular 'ole engines" in the years to come.

Jim

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 16:49:32 -0700, "RST Engineering" >
wrote:

>
> "Morgans" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>
> > I can't figure out why they chose the Rotax. Wouldn't an O-200 work well
> > in
> > that plane?
>
> WEight
> Performance
> 1970s technology (aot 1930s)
> Auto gas
> Less expensive initial and parts
> Reliability
>
> > I'll bet the FBO's would be more comfortable with a regular 'ole engine in
> > it, that they know and understand how to work on.
>
> These are destined to be the "regular 'ole engines" in the years to come.

'An when you get to Weir's age, being "regular" is the most important thing
there is! :-)

But the Rotax is not every tolerant of 100LL fuel. The lead gets dissolved into
the oil and sludges things up...these engines don't have the sloppy tolerances
of the Lycosaurs.

From http://www.rtx-av-engines.ca/PDF/techinfofuel.pdf:

"The problems with the leaded fuels are the pollution and the heavy deposits
of lead left on the spark plugs, piston rings, oil passages, and cylinder heads.
Fuels with lead can be used if the operator is willing to increase maintenance
on these parts. In many cases the engine will require a top overhaul well before
the TBO due to the lead contamination. Additives that help purge the lead, TCP
for example, are beneficial, but, are not yet recommended by Rotax due to the
volatile nature of such an additive. The Rotax liquid cooled head is also a
problem with a lead enhanced fuel. In simple terms it runs too cold. The head
never gets hot enough to allow the lead to “purge” itself of the deposits and
they build up over time."

Most of the reports regarding Diamond's switch from the Rotax 912 to the
Continental IO-240 emphasize the increased power, but AVweb says some smaller
operators were having problems with the engine. Due to the use of 100LL?

Filling up your friendly personal LSA with car gas isn't a problem...but an FBO
considering operating a fleet as trainers may well be scared off due to the
increased maintenance and the decrease in overhaul interval.

Yes, they *should* just set up a autofuel tanking system...but we've got a
chicken and the egg situation, there.

It *does* make you wonder about all those LSA companies, selling planes that
require fuel that isn't sold at 99% of American airports....

My bet? Cessna switches to a Lycosaur, if the plane goes into production.


Ron Wanttaja

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote
>
> Don't know why it would make a difference, tax-wise.
>
> My guess is that it's a combination of factors. "Prototype" implies it is
the
> first aircraft of a series of aircraft, and Cessna may not yet have Board
of
> Directors' approval to start production.
>
> Also, if major changes have to be made (such as a switch to another
engine), the
> "spin control" is easier with a "Proof of Concept." Big changes between
the
> "Prototype" and the production aircraft implies some faulty decisions
during the
> design process, but if you call it a "Proof of Concept" you can just
claim,
> "Well, we were just trying different ideas, pushing the envelope, that
sort of
> thing." Then you build a "prototype" that closely matches the production
model.

I can't figure out why they chose the Rotax. Wouldn't an O-200 work well in
that plane?

I'll bet the FBO's would be more comfortable with a regular 'ole engine in
it, that they know and understand how to work on.
--
Jim in NC

[Stella Starr]

I set out in a C-152 one nice summer day to fly across Lake Superior at
the narrow end, not so far from Duluth. The cloud cover was thin
overhead but it seemed lower ahead, and after realizing it had the
potential to A: drive me into the water scud-running, or B: make me
discover the that rising shore on the other side went up into the
clouds, I retreated and flew the long way around the shore.

I'm a great swimmer. But I've waded in Superior. It feels like dunking
your feet in a Coke full of ice, even when it's 88 up in the air.

http://www.coas****ch.msu.edu/

This indicates places along the south shore where, after a week or more
of onshore temps pushing three digits, the water temp's in the 30s.

I'd bet a couple miles from shore, Michigan is no picnic either.



Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Roger" > wrote in message
> ...
>> I know many who cross the lake single engine and do it regularly
>> myself and have for years. Life jackets are a necessity as I can't
>> swim but the lake is too cold for long survival even in summer.
>>
>
> So you wear the life jacket so your body may be found?
>
>

[Thomas Borchert]

Matt,

> No, they are prototypes.
>

If you want to call them something different than Cessna, do it. Cessna
calls them proof of concept. Both of them. And I've seen enough
"marketing speak" to have an idea just why they might do that.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Peter Dohm]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 21:44:10 GMT, "Ken Finney"
>
> wrote:
> >
> > I am guessing that for tax purposes, calling it a "proof of concept" is
> > better than calling it a "prototype".
>
> Don't know why it would make a difference, tax-wise.
>
> My guess is that it's a combination of factors. "Prototype" implies it is
the
> first aircraft of a series of aircraft, and Cessna may not yet have Board
of
> Directors' approval to start production.
>
> Also, if major changes have to be made (such as a switch to another
engine), the
> "spin control" is easier with a "Proof of Concept." Big changes between
the
> "Prototype" and the production aircraft implies some faulty decisions
during the
> design process, but if you call it a "Proof of Concept" you can just
claim,
> "Well, we were just trying different ideas, pushing the envelope, that
sort of
> thing." Then you build a "prototype" that closely matches the production
model.
>
> Ron Wanttaja

I believe that you have smacked the nail squarely on the head!

Peter

[Peter Dohm]

------snip---------
>
> I can't figure out why they chose the Rotax. Wouldn't an O-200 work well
in
> that plane?
>
> I'll bet the FBO's would be more comfortable with a regular 'ole engine in
> it, that they know and understand how to work on.
> --
> Jim in NC
>
I agree, and this is the primary source of my extreme irritation with the
current weight limit. If you add 25Kg to the engine, then you have to make
the airframe or usefull load that much less, with the result that
manufacturers are driven to accept finicky little engines with levels of
residual thrust that would be barely acceptable in a jet.

Peter

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Bryan Martin" wrote)
> The O-200 is made by Continental. Cessna is a division of Textron and so
is Lycoming. You're not going to see a Continental in a Cessna.


That would be a little like Saturn putting a Honda Pilot engine in their
VUE-SUV.


Montblack
Two-point "conversion" for working Pilot into the mix.
(Football season just around the corner)