How many pilots are using technology

[[email protected]]

I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
cockpits become the standard?

[Beavis[_1_]]

In article . com>,
" > wrote:

> How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?

As long as the FAA's involved, I'm going to go with "never." :-)

[Jose[_1_]]

> I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?

I have GPS in the cockpit. I carry paper and wouldn't think of not
doing so.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[[email protected]]

I use VFR GPS and have started transiting to WACs instead of sectionals
for cross-country trips. I prefer paper airport and taxiway diagrams
for those airports with control towers.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:10:15 +0000, Jose wrote:

> I carry paper and wouldn't think of not doing
> so.

I'm waiting for when the alternative is as reliable as paper. I've never
had paper fail for a bad battery. But I have had paper blow away. So
when I've an EFB that cannot fail for a bad battery but can blow away...

On the other hand, I do fly with a GPS and Strikefinder and I'm looking at
adding other capabilities (backup [solid state] AI, up/loaded WX, etc.).

- Andrew

[[email protected]]

I work in the military simulation industry. One of the retired soldiers
had a sig on his office door:

"A map with a bullet hole in it is a map. A computer with a bullet hole
in it is a boat anchor."

These tools are wonderful, but paper as backup is essential. I also
carry a handheld GPS in my flight bag. And I'll add a handheld radio
when I can afford it.

John Stevens
PP-ASEL

wrote:
> I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?

[Stefano]

wrote:

> I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?
Dunno.
I would appreciate also air e-conditioning but my plane carries none.
But the most desirable item for my personal benefit is an engine that runs
on e-fuel where "e" stands for economic (distilled water would be fine).

[Ray[_1_]]

Stefano wrote:
> wrote:
>
> > I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> > technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> > Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> > cockpits become the standard?
> Dunno.
> I would appreciate also air e-conditioning but my plane carries none.
> But the most desirable item for my personal benefit is an engine that runs
> on e-fuel where "e" stands for economic (distilled water would be fine).

LOL -

[Al[_1_]]

"Ray" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Stefano wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> > I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
>> > technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
>> > Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
>> > cockpits become the standard?
>> Dunno.
>> I would appreciate also air e-conditioning but my plane carries none.
>> But the most desirable item for my personal benefit is an engine that
>> runs
>> on e-fuel where "e" stands for economic (distilled water would be fine).
>
> LOL -
>
Don't know about you, but they are getting about $4.50 a gallon for water
around here.

Al G

[Newps]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 17:10:15 +0000, Jose wrote:
>
>
>>I carry paper and wouldn't think of not doing
>>so.
>
>
> I'm waiting for when the alternative is as reliable as paper.

I'm not so worried about reliability as I am ease of use. There's a new
paper thin tablet out there that looks promising but we'll see.

[Leonard Ellis]

We keep an updated Garmin 295 in our Skyhawk along with paper sectionals,
Low-Altitude Enroute charts, and plates. I use the AOPA flight planner and
TripPack on my laptop to print plates for trips outside the local area not
covered by my plate subscription. I don't see a time when paper goes
completely away, at least as a real-time backup.

For in-flight diverts, I find that I can page through a bound book of plates
much faster than I can jiggle the menus and buttons on the 295, so until
voice recognition is inexpensively available and the equipment & its power
supplies are totally reliable, redundant, and fail-safe, paper will have a
place in my airborne environment.

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?
>

[Gene Seibel]

Cheap handheld GPS and paper charts. No handheld radio. Not even
headsets. Paint job will have to wait. Engine is new. Money goes into
hours in the air. That's what it's all about for me. YMMV.
--
Gene Seibel
Confessions of a Pilot - http://pad39a.com/publishing/
Because I fly, I envy no one.


wrote:
> I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?

[Private]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?
>

It is an old joke, but the answer is that; 'we will see the paper-less
cockpit (and office) the same day we have a paper-less bathroom.'

ISTM that computer usage has resulted in more paper and not less.

Happy landings,

[Thomas Borchert]

,

> how many of us, pilots are using the current
> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> Bag, E-Aviation Charts.

I would say, the vast majority.

>How long do you think before paper-less
> cockpits become the standard?

Remember the paperless office? Rephrase your question: How many people
are using computers in their office? Next question: When will the
paperless office come?

Paper has this really great user interface...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jose[_1_]]

> No handheld radio. Not even
> headsets.

I'd reccomend at least $30 hearing protectors. You'll save more in ear
exams.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

Change FAA to Microsoft, and you have to find something longer than "Never".

"Beavis" > wrote in message
...
> In article . com>,
> " > wrote:
>
> > How long do you think before paper-less
> > cockpits become the standard?
>
> As long as the FAA's involved, I'm going to go with "never." :-)

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 20:57:15 -0600, Newps wrote:

> I'm not so worried about reliability as I am ease of use.

Because reliability is my requirement, I've never looked at the specifics
of the UIs of these EFBs. But I should think that they could be made
quite easy to use.

No?

- Andrew

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Paperless office does not mean absolutely no paper. It just means every
document is stored electronically, and we can print only what we need.
In that respect, I think we already have a paperless office. What
fraction of electronic documents do you think we normally print out? I
suspect it is around 10% or less. Imagine what would happen if we
printed all the data that is on every computer.




Thomas Borchert wrote:
> ,
>
> > how many of us, pilots are using the current
> > technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
> > Bag, E-Aviation Charts.
>
> I would say, the vast majority.
>
> >How long do you think before paper-less
> > cockpits become the standard?
>
> Remember the paperless office? Rephrase your question: How many people
> are using computers in their office? Next question: When will the
> paperless office come?
>
> Paper has this really great user interface...
>
> --
> Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Jose[_1_]]

> What
> fraction of electronic documents do you
> think we normally print out? I
> suspect it is around 10% or less.

Maybe so, but there are ten times as many documents as there were,
mainly because it's so easy to generate them. And we print out the
silliest things, and we print out stuff because the software gives us no
choice (like TurboTax's "smart worksheets" - don't get me started), and
we print them out multple times to get them right, and we print
everything on full sheets of paper, no matter how big the document.

If you had electronic charts in the cockpit, how many of you would print
them out for the approach. I would.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

They are easy to use, just inconvenient. Going to the other side of the
map, scrolling down because the page doesn't fit, etc. A computer can
display a page as nice as paper but it may take longer to access the
information.

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> On Tue, 25 Jul 2006 20:57:15 -0600, Newps wrote:
>
>
>>I'm not so worried about reliability as I am ease of use.
>
>
> Because reliability is my requirement, I've never looked at the specifics
> of the UIs of these EFBs. But I should think that they could be made
> quite easy to use.
>
> No?
>
> - Andrew
>

[Jose[_1_]]

> They are easy to use, just inconvenient. Going to the other side of the map, scrolling down because the page doesn't fit, etc.

In all fairness, folding and refolding maps in a tight cockpit is not so
easy either. :)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Icebound]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
> ... A computer can display a page as nice as paper but it may take longer
> to access the information.
>

No it cannot.

Typically, for a computer display, the user has to compromise his posture
and head position to match the position of the computer ( /GPS ) display.
Even "portable" computer displays are not as infinitely portable as is
paper, and will require at least a minimum of compromise by the user
(turning away from the glare, for example.).

With paper, you bring the display into the most convenient position to match
the user's posture and head position, no matter what it may be. With very
few exceptions, paper can be made to fit the user, no matter what his
physical attitude (lying on the floor, upside down, for example)!

[Matt Whiting]

Jose wrote:
>> They are easy to use, just inconvenient. Going to the other side of
>> the map, scrolling down because the page doesn't fit, etc.
>
>
> In all fairness, folding and refolding maps in a tight cockpit is not so
> easy either. :)

That all depends on how dexterous your passenger is. :-)

Matt

[Newps]

Icebound wrote:

> "Newps" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>... A computer can display a page as nice as paper but it may take longer
>>to access the information.
>>
>
>
> No it cannot.

Yes it can.


http://www.arinc.com/news/2006/07-23-06.html

[Icebound]

, 170-86 BCE

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Icebound wrote:
>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>... A computer can display a page as nice as paper but it may take
>>>longer to access the information.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No it cannot.
>
> Yes it can.
>
>
> http://www.arinc.com/news/2006/07-23-06.html

<grin> Well, that certainly has some promise...

[Jose[_1_]]

>> No it cannot.
> Yes it can.
> http://www.arinc.com/news/2006/07-23-06.html
> "The portable eFlyBook unit measures about ½ x 6 x 9 inches, and is priced below $1100 including a 12-month digital subscription... "

Send me one. I'll review it and tell all of you whether it can or
can't. How's that? :)

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[GeorgeC]

I remember when we went to a paperless office, out paper bill went up 200%. And
the paper bill has gone up steadily each year since.

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 11:59:52 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

,
>
>> how many of us, pilots are using the current
>> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
>> Bag, E-Aviation Charts.
>
>I would say, the vast majority.
>
>>How long do you think before paper-less
>> cockpits become the standard?
>
>Remember the paperless office? Rephrase your question: How many people
>are using computers in their office? Next question: When will the
>paperless office come?
>
>Paper has this really great user interface...

GeorgeC

[Roger[_4_]]

On 25 Jul 2006 10:02:28 -0700, "
> wrote:

>I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
>technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
>Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
>cockpits become the standard?

I've always been an "Early Adopter" when I could afford it and my
degree and profession are in computer science. Having said that I use
a portable GPS and even fly IFR using it. I also have RNAV in the
panel. The rest of the stuff is "gadgets" to me. If I can bring the
charts up on the panel (moving map display and approach charts) that
is fine, but costs too much and I'd not abandon paper charts for VFR,
Enroute, or approach. The GPS makes flying much easier. Having the
approach charts on GPS is even finer, but again I'd never give up the
paper as its batteries never die although they do fly out the door
seal once in a while.

As to the paperless office, I heard about that long before I started
on my degree. The paperless office is as fictitious as "zero
defects". Both are unobtainable with today's technology AND
REGULATIONS. With computers the paperwork has at least doubled as you
not only have to keep the original records, you also have to document
and keep records of the computers and their programs.

If there is any office out there that has reduced their paper work by
using computers, they don't realize how dangerous a game they are
playing. I made very good money playing this game and I know there
are many out there that think they are saving money. The ones that
still use all the paper are either the smart ones or the ones that
have already gotten bit by the monster they created.


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger[_4_]]

On Wed, 26 Jul 2006 03:33:30 GMT, "Leonard Ellis"
> wrote:

>We keep an updated Garmin 295 in our Skyhawk along with paper sectionals,
>Low-Altitude Enroute charts, and plates. I use the AOPA flight planner and
>TripPack on my laptop to print plates for trips outside the local area not
>covered by my plate subscription. I don't see a time when paper goes
>completely away, at least as a real-time backup.
>
>For in-flight diverts, I find that I can page through a bound book of plates
>much faster than I can jiggle the menus and buttons on the 295, so until
>voice recognition is inexpensively available and the equipment & its power
>supplies are totally reliable, redundant, and fail-safe, paper will have a
>place in my airborne environment.

I'm waiting for the full sized, gyro stabilized keyboard so I can make
entries while flying and not have to page through 10 layers of button
pushes just to change/delete/insert a way point. Then again I guess
they'd need to stabilize the pilot's seat as well for that to
work.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com


>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>>I would like to know, how many of us, pilots are using the current
>> technology out there to our benifit. I'm talking about GPS, E-Flight
>> Bag, E-Aviation Charts. How long do you think before paper-less
>> cockpits become the standard?
>>
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Chris W]

Private wrote:

> It is an old joke, but the answer is that; 'we will see the paper-less
> cockpit (and office) the same day we have a paper-less bathroom.'
>
> ISTM that computer usage has resulted in more paper and not less.

While it is true that computers have resulted in more, not less, paper
being used, a paper-less office is very possible (depending on the
business). One of the reasons computers initially generated more paper,
is because of the larger amount of data they could provide, and the fact
that few had the computers on their desk. Not to mention that the
monitors were small and very low resolution. Today a paper-less office
is not hard to achieve with a little effort. However, I wouldn't even
consider having a paper-less cockpit. I also wouldn't want a
computer-less cockpit either though.

--
Chris W
KE5GIX

Gift Giving Made Easy
Get the gifts you want &
give the gifts they want
One stop wish list for any gift,
from anywhere, for any occasion!
http://thewishzone.com

[Matt Whiting]

Roger wrote:

> I've always been an "Early Adopter" when I could afford it and my
> degree and profession are in computer science. Having said that I use
> a portable GPS and even fly IFR using it. I also have RNAV in the
> panel. The rest of the stuff is "gadgets" to me. If I can bring the
> charts up on the panel (moving map display and approach charts) that
> is fine, but costs too much and I'd not abandon paper charts for VFR,
> Enroute, or approach. The GPS makes flying much easier. Having the
> approach charts on GPS is even finer, but again I'd never give up the
> paper as its batteries never die although they do fly out the door
> seal once in a while.

Your batteries fly out the door seal? You must have that new really,
really thin battery technology! :-)


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Chris W wrote:

> Private wrote:
>
>> It is an old joke, but the answer is that; 'we will see the paper-less
>> cockpit (and office) the same day we have a paper-less bathroom.'
>>
>> ISTM that computer usage has resulted in more paper and not less.
>
>
> While it is true that computers have resulted in more, not less, paper
> being used, a paper-less office is very possible (depending on the
> business). One of the reasons computers initially generated more paper,
> is because of the larger amount of data they could provide, and the fact
> that few had the computers on their desk. Not to mention that the
> monitors were small and very low resolution. Today a paper-less office
> is not hard to achieve with a little effort. However, I wouldn't even
> consider having a paper-less cockpit. I also wouldn't want a
> computer-less cockpit either though.

True, but paper is still the most reliable form of long-term storage.
Every electronic or optical medium developed thus far deteriorates with
age at a much faster rate than does paper.


Matt

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Newps" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Icebound wrote:
>
>> "Newps" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>... A computer can display a page as nice as paper but it may take
>>>longer to access the information.
>>>
>>
>>
>> No it cannot.
>
> Yes it can.
>
>
> http://www.arinc.com/news/2006/07-23-06.html

If that is using the technology I think it is it is really kind of neat. It
uses almost no battery power except when it redraws the page.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Every electronic or optical medium developed thus far deteriorates with age at a much faster rate than does paper.

.... and the most important "aging" effects is from the software. I have
plenty of documents I can no longer read because the software is
incompatible with today's versions, and the old software is incompatible
with today's hardware, and the old hardware no longer works.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 08:20:52 -0500, Gig 601XL Builder wrote:

> If that is using the technology I think it is it is really kind of neat.
> It uses almost no battery power except when it redraws the page.

One of the stated advantages is:

Based on new “persistent display� technology, the screen requires
very little power and no backlighting. The display can run during long
hours of flight over several days on a single charge.

That's pretty impressive. At least during an approach (ie. no chart
changing), one isn't likely to lose the plate due to a power failure.

I also liked:

The “electronic paper� screen also captures and stores handwritten
notes from pilots using the stylus.

which is another common difference between paper and computer displays.

- Andrew

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-07-27, Jose > wrote:
>> Every electronic or optical medium developed thus far deteriorates with age at a much faster rate than does paper.
>
> ... and the most important "aging" effects is from the software. I have
> plenty of documents I can no longer read because the software is
> incompatible with today's versions, and the old software is incompatible
> with today's hardware, and the old hardware no longer works.

If the documents are underneat not encrypted, and not in any weird
character set, it is possible to recover them without too much
difficulty (although the formatting will be gone).

I suspect non-proprietary formats though (such as jpg or png for images)
will have a much longer shelf life than proprietary document formats.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Jose[_1_]]

> If the documents are underneat not encrypted, and not in any weird
> character set, it is possible to recover them without too much
> difficulty (although the formatting will be gone).

Yes, I've managed to extract the text of the ones I need, however, there
are text fragments scattered throughout, which may be updates ("quick
saves"), to the solid text parts, which would be older versions.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roger[_4_]]

On Thu, 27 Jul 2006 10:19:44 GMT, Matt Whiting >
wrote:

>Roger wrote:
>
>> I've always been an "Early Adopter" when I could afford it and my
>> degree and profession are in computer science. Having said that I use
>> a portable GPS and even fly IFR using it. I also have RNAV in the
>> panel. The rest of the stuff is "gadgets" to me. If I can bring the
>> charts up on the panel (moving map display and approach charts) that
>> is fine, but costs too much and I'd not abandon paper charts for VFR,
>> Enroute, or approach. The GPS makes flying much easier. Having the
>> approach charts on GPS is even finer, but again I'd never give up the
>> paper as its batteries never die although they do fly out the door
>> seal once in a while.
>
>Your batteries fly out the door seal? You must have that new really,
>really thin battery technology! :-)

Yah ever take a look at the gap under a Cherokee 180's door without
the rubber seal?<:-))

But yes, the batteries in the paper charts are really thin and never
go dead. Unfortunately they don't handle water well.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>
>
>Matt
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[John Galban]

Roger wrote:
>
> Yah ever take a look at the gap under a Cherokee 180's door without
> the rubber seal?<:-))
>
It can happen with a door seal too. The door hardware gets old and
bent and the gaps can be there even with a seal. I'm planning on
redoing my hardware and rehanging the door because I found a gap at the
bottom of the door that I didn't know was there.

I was on the first test flight with my new engine and my IA handed me
the break-in instructions just before takeoff for a 45 min. orbit over
the field. Once I got to altitude, I grabbed the sheet and laid it on
the passenger seat for reference. 2 seconds later, right before my
eyes, the sheet vanished without a sound. Apparently, I had a gap on
the bottom side of the door. Fortunately, I'd already memorized the
instructions.

I was just hoping that the sheet didn't float down and land in front
of my IA. He might have taken it personally :-))

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
Flying site : http://www.johngalban.com/

[Roger[_4_]]

On 27 Jul 2006 20:58:17 -0700, "John Galban" >
wrote:

>
>Roger wrote:
>>
>> Yah ever take a look at the gap under a Cherokee 180's door without
>> the rubber seal?<:-))
>>
> It can happen with a door seal too. The door hardware gets old and

Many years ago I was on a cross country in a Cherokee 180 about 100
miles from home. I had just checked the ATIS frequency on the chart,
laid the chart on the passenger seat and was setting in the frequency.
I saw movement, I grabbed, heard a loud snap and found I was still
holding the corner (bout a 6" piece) of what had been a new chart.
That whole opened chart shot out under that door like a flash.

It's almost impossible to get lost in Lower Michigan due to the
geography unless you are flying really low, but there are gunnery and
bombing ranges it'd be a good idea to avoid.<:-)) Living here, I know
where they are.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
>bent and the gaps can be there even with a seal. I'm planning on
>redoing my hardware and rehanging the door because I found a gap at the
>bottom of the door that I didn't know was there.
>
> I was on the first test flight with my new engine and my IA handed me
>the break-in instructions just before takeoff for a 45 min. orbit over
>the field. Once I got to altitude, I grabbed the sheet and laid it on
>the passenger seat for reference. 2 seconds later, right before my
>eyes, the sheet vanished without a sound. Apparently, I had a gap on
>the bottom side of the door. Fortunately, I'd already memorized the
>instructions.
>
> I was just hoping that the sheet didn't float down and land in front
>of my IA. He might have taken it personally :-))
>
>John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)
>Flying site : http://www.johngalban.com/
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Emily[_1_]]

Gene Seibel wrote:
> Yep, I lost a sheet of paper with all my frequencies, airport data, and
> contact numbers at my destination that way. Lying there on the
> passenger seat one second and gone the next. ;)

I lost a shoe that way once.