Am I the only person at Oshkosh without wheels?

[Jeff[_1_]]

I was able to get my family to OSH again this year (usually its a "guy's
trip"). We had a great time and enjoyed all parts. But, as usual, I do
have some gripes. Number one of those are: Did anyone else notice a marked
increase in the number of vehicles running around the flightline?

I know that logistical trucks (ice, food, gas, trams, etc) should be
expected. But I was constantly having to get out of the way of someone in a
minivan, scooter, gator or golf cart. My daughter was almost ran over by a
14 year old in a golf cart. What gives? To me, once the show starts (this
would exclude Sunday's setup day), the vendors shouldn't need more
transportation than the average joe.

I had figured that it was "just me", until I had some guy in a mini-van honk
at me as I was walking on Aeroshell Square. Needless to say, I slowed down
;)

Anyone else see this as a problem getting worse?

jf

[Dan Luke]

"Jeff" wrote:

>
> I had figured that it was "just me", until I had some guy in a mini-van
> honk at me as I was walking on Aeroshell Square. Needless to say, I
> slowed down ;)
>
> Anyone else see this as a problem getting worse?

Definitely. My buddy who went with me this year mentioned it, too.

Kids driving various kinds of vehicles too fast were very common.

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[[email protected]]

Dan Luke wrote:
> "Jeff" wrote:
>
> >
> > I had figured that it was "just me", until I had some guy in a mini-van
> > honk at me as I was walking on Aeroshell Square. Needless to say, I
> > slowed down ;)
> >
> > Anyone else see this as a problem getting worse?
>
> Definitely. My buddy who went with me this year mentioned it, too.
>
> Kids driving various kinds of vehicles too fast were very common.
>
> --
> Dan
> C172RG at BFM

Amen! I was almost run over on several occasions. Next year I think
I'll bring a spike strip to OSH and use it!

Dean

[Dan Luke]

"Morgans" wrote:

>> Definitely. My buddy who went with me this year mentioned it, too.
>>
>> Kids driving various kinds of vehicles too fast were very common.
>
> It is always a problem

Seemed worse this year.

> Nobody under 16 is to be driving a golf cart or gator.

When I say "kids," I mean anyone under 30! <grumph>

--
Dan
C172RG at BFM

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dan Luke" > wrote
>
> Definitely. My buddy who went with me this year mentioned it, too.
>
> Kids driving various kinds of vehicles too fast were very common.

It is always a problem

Nobody under 16 is to be driving a golf cart or gator.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Macklin]

I forwarded all this thread to Tom Poberezny


"Dan Luke" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Morgans" wrote:
|
| >> Definitely. My buddy who went with me this year
mentioned it, too.
| >>
| >> Kids driving various kinds of vehicles too fast were
very common.
| >
| > It is always a problem
|
| Seemed worse this year.
|
| > Nobody under 16 is to be driving a golf cart or gator.
|
| When I say "kids," I mean anyone under 30! <grumph>
|
| --
| Dan
| C172RG at BFM
|
|

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> I forwarded all this thread to Tom Poberezny

Like he cares. He makes his 200 grand a year and I'm sure had all the
transporation he needs. Let us know if you get a response.


Matt

[Jim Macklin]

I certainly will post his reply. He should reply to a Life
member sending complaints from a number of people.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > I forwarded all this thread to Tom Poberezny
|
| Like he cares. He makes his 200 grand a year and I'm sure
had all the
| transporation he needs. Let us know if you get a
response.
|
|
| Matt

[Dave Stadt]

There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for
them there would be no OSH. Give volunteering a try and you might
understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18
(can't remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH I
can't say I ever saw the rule violated.


"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
...
>I was able to get my family to OSH again this year (usually its a "guy's
>trip"). We had a great time and enjoyed all parts. But, as usual, I do
>have some gripes. Number one of those are: Did anyone else notice a
>marked increase in the number of vehicles running around the flightline?
>
> I know that logistical trucks (ice, food, gas, trams, etc) should be
> expected. But I was constantly having to get out of the way of someone in
> a minivan, scooter, gator or golf cart. My daughter was almost ran over
> by a 14 year old in a golf cart. What gives? To me, once the show starts
> (this would exclude Sunday's setup day), the vendors shouldn't need more
> transportation than the average joe.
>
> I had figured that it was "just me", until I had some guy in a mini-van
> honk at me as I was walking on Aeroshell Square. Needless to say, I
> slowed down ;)
>
> Anyone else see this as a problem getting worse?
>
> jf
>

[JJS]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message y.com...
>
> There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for them there would be no OSH. Give
> volunteering a try and you might understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18 (can't
> remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH I can't say I ever saw the rule violated.
>
I second Dave's observation. Although they were plenty of them, I didn't think there were as many in the two
previous years I'd attended... especially 1999.



----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com - Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
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[Jim Macklin]

I think it would be a good rule, all vehicle drivers need to
be licensed pilots or have a state issued drivers' license.
Just the fact that there are some complaints means there is
an issue. Anyway, I'm waiting to hear from Tom P.


"JJS" <jschneider@remove socks cebridge.net> wrote in
message ...
|
| "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
y.com...
| >
| > There were actually fewer support vehicles this year.
If it weren't for them there would be no OSH. Give
| > volunteering a try and you might understand the need a
little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18 (can't
| > remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9
days at OSH I can't say I ever saw the rule violated.
| >
| I second Dave's observation. Although they were plenty of
them, I didn't think there were as many in the two
| previous years I'd attended... especially 1999.
|
|
|
| ----== Posted via Newsfeeds.Com -
Unlimited-Unrestricted-Secure Usenet News==----
| http://www.newsfeeds.com The #1 Newsgroup Service in the
World! 120,000+ Newsgroups
| ----= East and West-Coast Server Farms - Total Privacy via
Encryption =----

[Dave Stadt]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> y.com...
>>
>> There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for
>> them there would be no OSH. Give volunteering a try and you might
>> understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18
>> (can't remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH
> I
>> can't say I ever saw the rule violated.
>
> If they were to put a number in large enough sizes on the front and rear
> of
> the vehicle, a person could make a complaint about the number vehicle and
> the time. A phone number to call would need to be posted on the vehicle
> or
> around the grounds. They should be able to check who the vehicle was
> signed
> out to, and take action, if a number of complaints were lodged about a
> certain vehicle.
>
> I can't believe that this has never happened before.
> --
> Jim in NC


If there were really a problem something would be done.

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for
> them there would be no OSH. Give volunteering a try and you might
> understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18
> (can't remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH
I
> can't say I ever saw the rule violated.

If they were to put a number in large enough sizes on the front and rear of
the vehicle, a person could make a complaint about the number vehicle and
the time. A phone number to call would need to be posted on the vehicle or
around the grounds. They should be able to check who the vehicle was signed
out to, and take action, if a number of complaints were lodged about a
certain vehicle.

I can't believe that this has never happened before.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
> If there were really a problem something would be done.

Yea, I have to agree. I, at times, have been a person with a gator or cart.
I was always patient, and let people move at their own speed, and get out of
my way without any urging from me. Sometimes, it is amazing that people
don't care to move, even it would only involve about three steps out of
their way. Nevertheless....

I really can't recall seeing anyone else being dangerous. Yes, when you
were on a road, and there was room, punch it!

I don't doubt that there are a very few volunteers somewhere that got
impatient, or were in a hurry, and made someone feel uncomfortable. I still
believe they are the exception, rather than the rule.
--
Jim in NC

[Dave S]

Dave Stadt wrote:

> If there were really a problem something would be done.
>

Sometimes it's not a "problem" until somebody gets hurt, and all of a
sudden "legal" has to get involved.

I volunteer in a medical capacity with one of the largest and richest
rodeos in the world, and the "golf cart" problem was unchecked until
last year (when, you guessed it.. someone got run over). This years
show, there were "no cart zones" and designated "cart paths that were
explicitly designed to separate the carts from the people. Violators
were considered to have been warned during orientation and cart
operators had their priveledges yanked on first offense. We had signs up
of all the affected areas in ALL the committee workspaces and on flyers
inside every vehicle. The officers and other big wigs were not exempt.

For an event this size, there should be "cart runs" that are separate
from the people.. or separate from non wheeled vehicles. These paths
should be made with minimal disruption of the flow of the show, and
should be on the "back" side of things wherever possible. I know that is
a tad more difficult at OSH due to the layout, but it can be done.. We
are talking about a path that is the wingspan of one plane.. less than
one parking space per row of planes.

The only vehicles that have a reason to go INTO the crowd are medical
and law enforcement. Everyone else should be given a path AROUND the crowd.

Dave

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dave S" > wrote

> For an event this size, there should be "cart runs" that are separate
> from the people.. or separate from non wheeled vehicles. These paths
> should be made with minimal disruption of the flow of the show, and
> should be on the "back" side of things wherever possible. I know that is
> a tad more difficult at OSH due to the layout, but it can be done.. We
> are talking about a path that is the wingspan of one plane.. less than
> one parking space per row of planes.
>
> The only vehicles that have a reason to go INTO the crowd are medical
> and law enforcement. Everyone else should be given a path AROUND the
crowd.

The biggest problem with doing that would not be controlling cart traffic.
It is the people. People walk EVERYWHERE except down the taxiway and Knapp
street, and even then, people still walk down Knapp street, even with a
sidewalk right next to it. Go figure.
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

I wholeheartedly agree that there was a problem this year on the
perimeter road around the north 40. I am one of the volunteers out on
the Flight line for general aviation parking and camping and noticed
cars going 45 (!) on the road around 9-27 with people everywhere.

Totally unacceptable. I brought it up with the powers that be, and the
police/security were going to patrol on a more frequent basis. The last
thing anyone wants is to survive the Green/Rush lake holds, and then
Fisk, only to be clocked by a car on the flight line!!!

Those of us in Flight Line Operations around 9-27 were making a
conscious effort to be good, but we spend most of our time on the grass
and hard surface taxiways anyway, out of everyones way in cars.

I agree there was a problem. There seems to be a significant increase
in the number of cars on the field in the last few years.
Anybody from EAA should give way to a pedestrian regardless, but there
are people from every organization under the sun on the field, and
regulating them is impossible, except to enforce the 15mph speed limit
by the police and security.

I hope that it doesn't take a tragedy to help fix the problem.
We are better than that.

Ryan Wubben
Co-Chairman, EAA Flight Line Operations

[.Blueskies.]

> wrote in message ups.com...
:I wholeheartedly agree that there was a problem this year on the
: perimeter road around the north 40. I am one of the volunteers out on
: the Flight line for general aviation parking and camping and noticed
: cars going 45 (!) on the road around 9-27 with people everywhere.
:
....snip
:
: I hope that it doesn't take a tragedy to help fix the problem.
: We are better than that.
:
: Ryan Wubben
: Co-Chairman, EAA Flight Line Operations
:

I agree, it was not so much the number, but the speed of the vehicles that was the problem in my eyes. Some were going
pretty fast...

[Matt Whiting]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> I certainly will post his reply. He should reply to a Life
> member sending complaints from a number of people.

Yes, he should reply and he probably will reply.

What he really should do is address the problem, and I'll bet that
doesn't happen.


Matt

[Matt Whiting]

Morgans wrote:

> "Dave Stadt" > wrote
>
>>If there were really a problem something would be done.
>
>
> Yea, I have to agree. I, at times, have been a person with a gator or cart.
> I was always patient, and let people move at their own speed, and get out of
> my way without any urging from me. Sometimes, it is amazing that people
> don't care to move, even it would only involve about three steps out of
> their way. Nevertheless....
>
> I really can't recall seeing anyone else being dangerous. Yes, when you
> were on a road, and there was room, punch it!
>
> I don't doubt that there are a very few volunteers somewhere that got
> impatient, or were in a hurry, and made someone feel uncomfortable. I still
> believe they are the exception, rather than the rule.

It seems like they could cordone off a "main road" through the area and
have it exclusively for the vehicles and not allow any pedestrians. And
then not allow any vehicles in the other areas that are for pedestrians.


Matt

[Tom McQuinn]

..Blueskies. wrote:
> > wrote in message ups.com...
> :I wholeheartedly agree that there was a problem this year on the
> : perimeter road around the north 40. I am one of the volunteers out on
> : the Flight line for general aviation parking and camping and noticed
> : cars going 45 (!) on the road around 9-27 with people everywhere.
> :
> ...snip
> :
> : I hope that it doesn't take a tragedy to help fix the problem.
> : We are better than that.
> :
> : Ryan Wubben
> : Co-Chairman, EAA Flight Line Operations
> :
>
> I agree, it was not so much the number, but the speed of the vehicles that was the problem in my eyes. Some were going
> pretty fast...
>
>
Ditto. Not for nuthin' but I have a hearing impaired 8 year old and
that makes for some tense moments. At least he's been taught to be
careful on the road. Getting him to be ever vigilant of being run down
by a Gator trying to break the land speed record in the grass is
something I'm still working on.

Tom

[Jim Macklin]

Be sure to pass your comments along to the proper people and
the rest of these comments on the thread.



> wrote in message
ups.com...
|I wholeheartedly agree that there was a problem this year
on the
| perimeter road around the north 40. I am one of the
volunteers out on
| the Flight line for general aviation parking and camping
and noticed
| cars going 45 (!) on the road around 9-27 with people
everywhere.
|
| Totally unacceptable. I brought it up with the powers that
be, and the
| police/security were going to patrol on a more frequent
basis. The last
| thing anyone wants is to survive the Green/Rush lake
holds, and then
| Fisk, only to be clocked by a car on the flight line!!!
|
| Those of us in Flight Line Operations around 9-27 were
making a
| conscious effort to be good, but we spend most of our time
on the grass
| and hard surface taxiways anyway, out of everyones way in
cars.
|
| I agree there was a problem. There seems to be a
significant increase
| in the number of cars on the field in the last few years.
| Anybody from EAA should give way to a pedestrian
regardless, but there
| are people from every organization under the sun on the
field, and
| regulating them is impossible, except to enforce the 15mph
speed limit
| by the police and security.
|
| I hope that it doesn't take a tragedy to help fix the
problem.
| We are better than that.
|
| Ryan Wubben
| Co-Chairman, EAA Flight Line Operations
|

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > said:
>have some gripes. Number one of those are: Did anyone else notice a marked
>increase in the number of vehicles running around the flightline?

While we're on the subject of transportation I'd like to talk about the
busses in the North 40 and Camp Scholler.

The shuttle busses in Camp Scholler suck - they're slow, they go on a very
indirect route, and they take too long to unload and load - most days I
walked rather than taking them. And in the North 40, it seems they're
always standing room only and all the standees have to get off and back on
every time somebody wants to get off. This is in marked contrast to the
trams on the grounds itself, which are frequent and take no time to load
and unload.

Why don't they run trams in the camp areas instead of busses?


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
"If you get upset, emotional, or angry you are not dealing with the
emergency"
-- Rick Grant (quoting RCAF pilot training)

[Jeff[_1_]]

I will clarify. I think *THIS* year, the problem was more with vendors and
golf carts. The gators and the EAA golf carts all seemed to be relatively
sedate and courteous....and I would get out of their way. What got on my
nerves was the number of cars and minivans. Maybe I just hit it all at the
wrong time, but I entered the grounds from Camp Scholler behind the South
West Exhibit building. By the time I made it to the Cessna unveiling of
their LSA on Monday, I had already had to stop and move out of the way for 4
vehicles.

Again, maybe I'm just a magnet for them, but it definitely seemed worse this
year, IMHO.

jf


"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
y.com...
>
> There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for
> them there would be no OSH. Give volunteering a try and you might
> understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18
> (can't remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH
> I can't say I ever saw the rule violated.
>
>
> "Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
> ...
>>I was able to get my family to OSH again this year (usually its a "guy's
>>trip"). We had a great time and enjoyed all parts. But, as usual, I do
>>have some gripes. Number one of those are: Did anyone else notice a
>>marked increase in the number of vehicles running around the flightline?
>>
>> I know that logistical trucks (ice, food, gas, trams, etc) should be
>> expected. But I was constantly having to get out of the way of someone
>> in a minivan, scooter, gator or golf cart. My daughter was almost ran
>> over by a 14 year old in a golf cart. What gives? To me, once the show
>> starts (this would exclude Sunday's setup day), the vendors shouldn't
>> need more transportation than the average joe.
>>
>> I had figured that it was "just me", until I had some guy in a mini-van
>> honk at me as I was walking on Aeroshell Square. Needless to say, I
>> slowed down ;)
>>
>> Anyone else see this as a problem getting worse?
>>
>> jf
>>
>
>

[Dave Stadt]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
...
>I will clarify. I think *THIS* year, the problem was more with vendors and
>golf carts. The gators and the EAA golf carts all seemed to be relatively
>sedate and courteous....and I would get out of their way. What got on my
>nerves was the number of cars and minivans. Maybe I just hit it all at the
>wrong time, but I entered the grounds from Camp Scholler behind the South
>West Exhibit building. By the time I made it to the Cessna unveiling of
>their LSA on Monday, I had already had to stop and move out of the way for
>4 vehicles.
>
> Again, maybe I'm just a magnet for them, but it definitely seemed worse
> this year, IMHO.
>
> jf

I'll agree with that. Most vendors are much less tollerant and less willing
to give pedestrians the right of way than are the volunteers.

[John T[_1_]]

In camp scholler, they actually had signs that said "only licensed
drivers allowed to operate motor vehicls". Seemed to help somewhat.

John

[Ron Natalie]

Dave Stadt wrote:
> There were actually fewer support vehicles this year. If it weren't for
> them there would be no OSH. Give volunteering a try and you might
> understand the need a little better. The rule is no one under 16 or 18
> (can't remember which) drives a vehicle. Just having spent 9 days at OSH I
> can't say I ever saw the rule violated.
>
>
It is a whole lot better than a decade ago. It was almost impossible to
walk safely at show center with the pletora of cars (let along gators
and carts).


>
>

[Jules]

Dave Stadt wrote:


> If there were really a problem something would be done.
>


There's fairy tale thinking... your kidding right??
Unless you define "problem", as an accident.

To me, it is a problem if there are complaints, or if people felt uneasy
about the traffic. I am sure some are very nice and understand they are
motoring through a crowd of hot people baking in the heat. If so, the
other end of the spectrum likely exists. And they should be delt with.
Or there will be bigger problems.

If some idiot is going to take away the ability for a child to walk for
two months and then walk in pain for the next seven months or maybe
longer. Incurr medical expenses and loss of lifestyle, what is that
worth. Or even to an adult? I am not a fan of the legal action and
accident litigations but sitting here thinking, "what would it be like",
makes me kinda angry to say the least. And who is responsible, the show,
the driver, or the parent of the driver, the company (vendor vehicle)?

[Dave Stadt]

"Jules" > wrote in message
...
>
>
> Dave Stadt wrote:
>
>
>> If there were really a problem something would be done.
>>
>
>
> There's fairy tale thinking... your kidding right??
> Unless you define "problem", as an accident.
>
> To me, it is a problem if there are complaints, or if people felt uneasy
> about the traffic. I am sure some are very nice and understand they are
> motoring through a crowd of hot people baking in the heat. If so, the
> other end of the spectrum likely exists. And they should be delt with. Or
> there will be bigger problems.
>
> If some idiot is going to take away the ability for a child to walk for
> two months and then walk in pain for the next seven months or maybe
> longer. Incurr medical expenses and loss of lifestyle, what is that worth.
> Or even to an adult? I am not a fan of the legal action and accident
> litigations but sitting here thinking, "what would it be like", makes me
> kinda angry to say the least. And who is responsible, the show, the
> driver, or the parent of the driver, the company (vendor vehicle)?

How many out of 700,000 have complained? Without quantifying the problem by
actual incidents or number of people complaining it is all so much smoke.
Out of that many people you are going to get some complaints about any and
everything. Quantify the problem then come back and start a real
discussion.

[Jeff[_1_]]

> Quantify the problem then come back and start a real discussion.
>

Well, for the purpose of debate, I would submit that our newsgroup could be
a good sample of the attendees. We have probably 50 people who regularly
post here? Of course, all of us are computer savvy enough to know what a
newsgroup is, but for the most part, you've got a good slice of the pie
represented.

So, if 10 of the 50 see this as a problem, wouldn't it hold true that 20% of
the 700,000 also found it (at least) irritating?

Then again, using this same method is how the Gay/Lesbian movement has
managed to convince America that 10% of all U.S. Citizens are
gay.....hrmmm....

Just a thought :)

jf