Oshkosh '06 Redux

[Jay Honeck]

Maybe I missed it, but all of the previous posts about OSH '06
(including my own) have been about the problems encountered en route to
and from the Big Show. In all the controversy, the show itself has
been barely mentioned! Time to rectify this:

The Big Bombers
The purported theme of the show, the "Big Bomber Reunion", was mildly
castrated by the annual absence of "Fifi" -- the CAF's B-29
Superfortress. This year, so the story goes, they had engine
troubles.

The remaining bombers put on an impressive show, however, with the
British Lancaster (one of just two left flying in the world) leading
the way. EAA managed to get three B-17s, a B-24, several B-25s, and
the Lancaster in the air all at once, which made the traditional
"bombing runs" better than usual. And the "Missing Man" formation,
made entirely of big bombers, was worth the price of admission.

Strangely, although it put on a great solo flight demonstration early
in the week, the B-1 Lancer did NOT participate in this "reunion
flight". THAT would have been a cool "Heritage Flight" to see!

The Raptors
In my opinion, the most amazing display at the show was the incredible
performance put on by the two USAF F-22 Raptors. To say they stole the
show might be a bit much, but everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) was gazing
skyward with their mouths hanging wide open as the Raptor pilots
demonstrated one impossible maneuver after another.

Suffice it to say that vectored thrust combined with a better than 1:1
thrust-to-weight ratio, combined with computerized fly-by-wire
controls, makes for an astonishingly maneuverable aircraft. Nothing
else in the inventory comes close.

The Eclipse Jet
When Vern Raburn first announced the VLJ Eclipse Jet at OSH, a few
years ago, I must confess to laughing. I thought "another fool being
parted from his money", and never thought we'd hear from THAT loon
again.

Well, they received partial certification for that danged thing at OSH
'06, with first deliveries scheduled for next month. To say I'm
surprised is an understatement, but I've never been more glad to be
wrong. If their vision of air taxies serving smaller airports comes
true, airports like mine will be revitalized, and we won't be spending
any more time wringing our hands about closing airports.

Light Sport Aircraft
The LSA revolution is just getting underway, and to see Cessna's entry
into this vital new market was truly gratifying. There are an amazing
number of LSAs already on the market, and -- after decades of the same
old "Piper/Cessna/Beech" -- it's really exciting to see them all.

Cessna's New GA Plane
I missed the overflight, but I saw pix of the new Cessna. It looks
like an updated Cardinal, and word on the field was that it is made
from composites and aluminum.

All I can say is: 'Bout time!

XM Weather
Last year, XM weather was the new-fangled kid on the block. This year,
the distinctive black "XM Satellite Radio" flag was hanging at nearly
every booth. The technology is expanding with astonishing speed, and
to see it incorporated into so many pieces of software is really cool.


RV World
Van's RVs continue to build their commanding lead over every other
home-built aircraft, and they were at the show in force. The many
variants, the many modifications, the many personal touches, and the
incredible array of cool paint jobs and interiors made me want to own
one in the worst way. RVs are simply cool -- I sure wish they'd build
one for me.

The North 40
Every year, it seems, the people in the North 40 get friendlier, and
the beer gets colder. This year, in addition to the Wednesday Night
Party, we were pleased to be invited to several other shin-digs (sadly,
none of which we were able to attend), and spent every night after the
air show sitting with interesting people from all over the world whilst
sampling many different brands of excellent barley pop. To say it was
a little bit of heaven would not be an exaggeration.

I don't care what anyone says, the REAL Airventure -- for us, anyway --
happens every year in the North 40.

Bob Hoover/Chuck Yeager/Bud Anderson
Again, perhaps for the last time, it was possible to see and hear these
three living legends together at OSH. Every year Hoover gets more
rickety, Yeager gets more crotchety, and Anderson gets more humble --
but they are all clearly in decline.

If you want to see and hear these true American heroes, I would plan on
attending OSH '07. Their time is short.

Goodwill Bikes
Last year, we revolutionized our OSH experience by buying four bicycles
at the nearby Goodwill store, riding them all week, and then donating
them back to Goodwill in exchange for a tax write-off.

This year, we did the same thing, but so did hundreds of our fellow
campers. Goodwill had obviously planned ahead and sent every
able-axled bike to OSH from all over the Midwest -- including ones that
should have been scrapped -- so our experience this year wasn't quite
as positive.

My first bike had a permanent flat rear tire, the left pedal crank
literally fell off my second bike, and the chain on my son's bike broke
while he was towing me back from the show.

Still, once we got four working bikes, they worked like a charm. We
didn't ride the perimeter bus even once this year -- a new record --
and the time and energy we saved was immense.

Best of all, it's for a good cause.

Seaplane Heaven
After days spent hiking the flight line, we spent an entire day out in
the peace and cool quiet of the seaplane base. My kids are finally
old enough to enjoy just SITTING, and being able to let my mind wander,
and NOT fight crowds, is just fantastic. There was a
hovercraft/ground effect flying thingy giving flight demonstrations
that was very cool, and if I lived on an inland lake, I'd buy one in a
heartbeat.

And watching a giant Grumman Albatross thunder across the water,
struggling to get up on the step, is a sight we just don't see in
land-locked Iowa every day. I get chills thinking about it.

Oshkosh '06 was everything I've come to expect from Airventure, and
more. True, it couldn't possibly match the amazing '05 show, when
SpaceShipOne and Global Explorer attended -- but that didn't diminish
it in the least for me. We spent a full week on the field, and
actually managed to see everything we set out to see, for once. It was
marvelous, and I'd go back tomorrow, if they'd let me.

Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jeff[_1_]]

> Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
> when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
> begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!

Here Here! I've been going (most years) since 1986. There's just something
about the environment that makes you want to live there (although we have to
have jobs, I guess). Great people, great times. And I hear that they have
a neat party in the North 40 on Wednesday nights, but I just like to spend
my time hiking then ;) (maybe I'll find you next year!)

jf

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> and the chain on my son's bike broke
> while he was towing me back from the show.

are you SURE you want to admit that? :-)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Dan Luke]

"Jay Honeck" wrote:

> mildly castrated

Tee-hee!

"This will only hurt a little..."

[Peter R.]

Jay Honeck > wrote:

> Maybe I missed it, but all of the previous posts about OSH '06
> (including my own) have been about the problems encountered en route to
> and from the Big Show. In all the controversy, the show itself has
> been barely mentioned! Time to rectify this:
<snip>

Thanks, Jay, for the smallest taste of the largest US aviation fly-in.

--
Peter

[Jay Honeck]

> > and the chain on my son's bike broke
> > while he was towing me back from the show.
>
> are you SURE you want to admit that? :-)

Trust me, that chain had not seen any oil since the Disco days... :-)

(Thankfully, he was riding a girl's bike, or he'd have been singing
soprano after that chain suddenly broke!)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Viperdoc[_1_]]

These are the major reasons that if I do attend OSH, I prefer to drive. The
one and only time I flew in was in my Extra, with a friend along as an extra
pair of eyes. This was on a Saturday before the show started, but the
controllers were all in place. We got sequenced behind a DC-3, which
approaches around 30-40k slower than us, which quickly created a bad
situation. Our choice was to continue the approach nose high, blind, and way
behind the power curve or do some pretty radical side slip to see on short
final, neither of which were particularly good choices.

Finally, after landing we taxied in and shut down, and a somewhat confused
looking volunteer walked up to us, and then as he walked away he went right
through the left wing site gauge, which of course broke. These cost over a
grand to replace, not including the prep and paint work. He just shrugged
his shoulders and walked away without saying a word.

To me, the most interesting part of OSH are the people you get to meet,
hanging out with the performers or the people in the North 40. Airplanes and
technology are OK, but waiting in line to ask one question at the Garmin
booth about some vaporware that they've promised for two years (like WAAS
for the 530 series) gets old after a while. The same goes for seeing the
warbird airshow- sounds good, but how many passes and chandelles do you
really need?

So, for me, it's an opportunity to catch up with old friends and make some
new ones, along with learning something new about the flying experience. I
could care less about the Eclipse jet (can't afford one and Honda's going to
crush them anyway). Also, will never fly in again (too much at the mercy of
my own or someone else's bonehead move), and would never park my plane there
either. (people standing on wheel pants, scratching canopies, etc).

It's all about people sharing the same interests and passions.

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Maybe I missed it, but all of the previous posts about OSH '06
> (including my own) have been about the problems encountered en route to
> and from the Big Show. In all the controversy, the show itself has
> been barely mentioned! Time to rectify this:
>
> The Big Bombers
> The purported theme of the show, the "Big Bomber Reunion", was mildly
> castrated by the annual absence of "Fifi" -- the CAF's B-29
> Superfortress. This year, so the story goes, they had engine
> troubles.
>
> The remaining bombers put on an impressive show, however, with the
> British Lancaster (one of just two left flying in the world) leading
> the way. EAA managed to get three B-17s, a B-24, several B-25s, and
> the Lancaster in the air all at once, which made the traditional
> "bombing runs" better than usual. And the "Missing Man" formation,
> made entirely of big bombers, was worth the price of admission.
>
> Strangely, although it put on a great solo flight demonstration early
> in the week, the B-1 Lancer did NOT participate in this "reunion
> flight". THAT would have been a cool "Heritage Flight" to see!
>
> The Raptors
> In my opinion, the most amazing display at the show was the incredible
> performance put on by the two USAF F-22 Raptors. To say they stole the
> show might be a bit much, but everyone (and I mean EVERYONE) was gazing
> skyward with their mouths hanging wide open as the Raptor pilots
> demonstrated one impossible maneuver after another.
>
> Suffice it to say that vectored thrust combined with a better than 1:1
> thrust-to-weight ratio, combined with computerized fly-by-wire
> controls, makes for an astonishingly maneuverable aircraft. Nothing
> else in the inventory comes close.
>
> The Eclipse Jet
> When Vern Raburn first announced the VLJ Eclipse Jet at OSH, a few
> years ago, I must confess to laughing. I thought "another fool being
> parted from his money", and never thought we'd hear from THAT loon
> again.
>
> Well, they received partial certification for that danged thing at OSH
> '06, with first deliveries scheduled for next month. To say I'm
> surprised is an understatement, but I've never been more glad to be
> wrong. If their vision of air taxies serving smaller airports comes
> true, airports like mine will be revitalized, and we won't be spending
> any more time wringing our hands about closing airports.
>
> Light Sport Aircraft
> The LSA revolution is just getting underway, and to see Cessna's entry
> into this vital new market was truly gratifying. There are an amazing
> number of LSAs already on the market, and -- after decades of the same
> old "Piper/Cessna/Beech" -- it's really exciting to see them all.
>
> Cessna's New GA Plane
> I missed the overflight, but I saw pix of the new Cessna. It looks
> like an updated Cardinal, and word on the field was that it is made
> from composites and aluminum.
>
> All I can say is: 'Bout time!
>
> XM Weather
> Last year, XM weather was the new-fangled kid on the block. This year,
> the distinctive black "XM Satellite Radio" flag was hanging at nearly
> every booth. The technology is expanding with astonishing speed, and
> to see it incorporated into so many pieces of software is really cool.
>
>
> RV World
> Van's RVs continue to build their commanding lead over every other
> home-built aircraft, and they were at the show in force. The many
> variants, the many modifications, the many personal touches, and the
> incredible array of cool paint jobs and interiors made me want to own
> one in the worst way. RVs are simply cool -- I sure wish they'd build
> one for me.
>
> The North 40
> Every year, it seems, the people in the North 40 get friendlier, and
> the beer gets colder. This year, in addition to the Wednesday Night
> Party, we were pleased to be invited to several other shin-digs (sadly,
> none of which we were able to attend), and spent every night after the
> air show sitting with interesting people from all over the world whilst
> sampling many different brands of excellent barley pop. To say it was
> a little bit of heaven would not be an exaggeration.
>
> I don't care what anyone says, the REAL Airventure -- for us, anyway --
> happens every year in the North 40.
>
> Bob Hoover/Chuck Yeager/Bud Anderson
> Again, perhaps for the last time, it was possible to see and hear these
> three living legends together at OSH. Every year Hoover gets more
> rickety, Yeager gets more crotchety, and Anderson gets more humble --
> but they are all clearly in decline.
>
> If you want to see and hear these true American heroes, I would plan on
> attending OSH '07. Their time is short.
>
> Goodwill Bikes
> Last year, we revolutionized our OSH experience by buying four bicycles
> at the nearby Goodwill store, riding them all week, and then donating
> them back to Goodwill in exchange for a tax write-off.
>
> This year, we did the same thing, but so did hundreds of our fellow
> campers. Goodwill had obviously planned ahead and sent every
> able-axled bike to OSH from all over the Midwest -- including ones that
> should have been scrapped -- so our experience this year wasn't quite
> as positive.
>
> My first bike had a permanent flat rear tire, the left pedal crank
> literally fell off my second bike, and the chain on my son's bike broke
> while he was towing me back from the show.
>
> Still, once we got four working bikes, they worked like a charm. We
> didn't ride the perimeter bus even once this year -- a new record --
> and the time and energy we saved was immense.
>
> Best of all, it's for a good cause.
>
> Seaplane Heaven
> After days spent hiking the flight line, we spent an entire day out in
> the peace and cool quiet of the seaplane base. My kids are finally
> old enough to enjoy just SITTING, and being able to let my mind wander,
> and NOT fight crowds, is just fantastic. There was a
> hovercraft/ground effect flying thingy giving flight demonstrations
> that was very cool, and if I lived on an inland lake, I'd buy one in a
> heartbeat.
>
> And watching a giant Grumman Albatross thunder across the water,
> struggling to get up on the step, is a sight we just don't see in
> land-locked Iowa every day. I get chills thinking about it.
>
> Oshkosh '06 was everything I've come to expect from Airventure, and
> more. True, it couldn't possibly match the amazing '05 show, when
> SpaceShipOne and Global Explorer attended -- but that didn't diminish
> it in the least for me. We spent a full week on the field, and
> actually managed to see everything we set out to see, for once. It was
> marvelous, and I'd go back tomorrow, if they'd let me.
>
> Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
> when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
> begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

"Viperdoc" > wrote in message
...
>snip good stuff>
> It's all about people sharing the same interests and passions.<

Here!Here! It's about people and friends. The BEST airshows that I have
seen at OSH have been viewed while sitting, beer in hand, in the N40 talking
with friends and occasionally looking up when being overflown by a group of
warbirds, an aerobatic act, or even by departing GA aircraft. The common
factor to these great events is people and friends. The airplanes are
simply our excuse.
Jim

[Randy Aldous]

Jeff wrote:
> > Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
> > when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
> > begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
>
> Here Here! I've been going (most years) since 1986. There's just something
> about the environment that makes you want to live there (although we have to
> have jobs, I guess). Great people, great times. And I hear that they have
> a neat party in the North 40 on Wednesday nights, but I just like to spend
> my time hiking then ;) (maybe I'll find you next year!)
>
> jf

Perhaps next year GPS coordinates will have to be published as soon as
the N40 base of operations has been established. (Strobe lights might
work, too) ;-)


Randy (wish he had been there. Maybe next year.)

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

I don't know about strobes or coordinates, but I posted this Sunday
afternoon just a few hours after their arrival:

"For those that are going to the Rec.Aviation.*.* party Wednesday night, Jay
and Mary's parking/camping spot is # 558 in the North 40 on the NORTH side
of 9/27 on the departure end of 27 fairly close to Friar Tucks."

I was afraid that many people would be busy packing or already on their way.

Jim



"Randy Aldous" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Jeff wrote:
> > > Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
> > > when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
> > > begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
> >
> > Here Here! I've been going (most years) since 1986. There's just
something
> > about the environment that makes you want to live there (although we
have to
> > have jobs, I guess). Great people, great times. And I hear that they
have
> > a neat party in the North 40 on Wednesday nights, but I just like to
spend
> > my time hiking then ;) (maybe I'll find you next year!)
> >
> > jf
>
> Perhaps next year GPS coordinates will have to be published as soon as
> the N40 base of operations has been established. (Strobe lights might
> work, too) ;-)
>
>
> Randy (wish he had been there. Maybe next year.)
>

[Al[_1_]]

"Randy Aldous" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Jeff wrote:
>> > Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm happiest
>> > when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll know I will
>> > begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
>>
>> Here Here! I've been going (most years) since 1986. There's just
>> something
>> about the environment that makes you want to live there (although we have
>> to
>> have jobs, I guess). Great people, great times. And I hear that they
>> have
>> a neat party in the North 40 on Wednesday nights, but I just like to
>> spend
>> my time hiking then ;) (maybe I'll find you next year!)
>>
>> jf
>
> Perhaps next year GPS coordinates will have to be published as soon as
> the N40 base of operations has been established. (Strobe lights might
> work, too) ;-)
>
>
> Randy (wish he had been there. Maybe next year.)
>

Oh, I know, A BLIMP!

With Lights...

Al G

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 08:56:05 -0500, "Jim Burns"
> wrote:
> Here!Here! It's about people and friends. The BEST airshows that I have
> seen at OSH have been viewed while sitting, beer in hand, in the N40 talking
> with friends and occasionally looking up when being overflown by a group of
> warbirds, an aerobatic act, or even by departing GA aircraft. The common
> factor to these great events is people and friends. The airplanes are
> simply our excuse.

I suspect that there is definitely something to be said about driving
in... You can carry so much more creature comforts with you... Your
beer drinking time is not decreased since you're not flying... For me,
the choice is between a 9 hr flight vs a 24 hr drive...

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
>
> I suspect that there is definitely something to be said about driving
> in... You can carry so much more creature comforts with you... Your
> beer drinking time is not decreased since you're not flying... For me,
> the choice is between a 9 hr flight vs a 24 hr drive...
>

For me it's a 50 minute drive vs. about a 90 minute flight.

[Jim Burns]

Same here. Plus, I'd still spend an hour in the car driving to and from
KSTE to get the airplane. There is definitely an allure to flying into OSH,
but for me it makes no sense.
Jim

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "Grumman-581" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> I suspect that there is definitely something to be said about driving
>> in... You can carry so much more creature comforts with you... Your
>> beer drinking time is not decreased since you're not flying... For me,
>> the choice is between a 9 hr flight vs a 24 hr drive...
>>
>
> For me it's a 50 minute drive vs. about a 90 minute flight.
>

[Jay Honeck]

> Same here. Plus, I'd still spend an hour in the car driving to and from
> KSTE to get the airplane. There is definitely an allure to flying into OSH,
> but for me it makes no sense.

Sounds like Sun N Fun will be more your cup o' tea. At least you'd get
to fly in!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Jim Burns wrote:
> Same here. Plus, I'd still spend an hour in the car driving to and from
> KSTE to get the airplane. There is definitely an allure to flying into OSH,
> but for me it makes no sense.
> Jim
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
> ink.net...
> >
> > "Grumman-581" > wrote in message
> > ...
> >>
> >> I suspect that there is definitely something to be said about driving
> >> in... You can carry so much more creature comforts with you... Your
> >> beer drinking time is not decreased since you're not flying... For me,
> >> the choice is between a 9 hr flight vs a 24 hr drive...
> >>
> >
> > For me it's a 50 minute drive vs. about a 90 minute flight.
> >


For last year's OSH, I took a nonstop commercial flight from Cincinnati
to Appleton for something like $200. I think it was Comair. It was
cheap, easy and fast. I wish I could say the same about other airline
travel.

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

SNF happens at the exact time we're getting ready to plant :( I'll never
make SNF unless they change the date.
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Same here. Plus, I'd still spend an hour in the car driving to and from
> > KSTE to get the airplane. There is definitely an allure to flying into
OSH,
> > but for me it makes no sense.
>
> Sounds like Sun N Fun will be more your cup o' tea. At least you'd get
> to fly in!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[Jay Honeck]

> SNF happens at the exact time we're getting ready to plant :( I'll never
> make SNF unless they change the date.

Yeah, and we'll never see SnF again unless they change the dates to
coincide with my kids' spring break.

Sounds like you and I will be crying in our beers together next April,
eh?

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

Nah.... we'll still be talking about the Adventure that we took in March! :)
Jim

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > SNF happens at the exact time we're getting ready to plant :( I'll
never
> > make SNF unless they change the date.
>
> Yeah, and we'll never see SnF again unless they change the dates to
> coincide with my kids' spring break.
>
> Sounds like you and I will be crying in our beers together next April,
> eh?
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[JJS]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message ups.com...
> Maybe I missed it, but all of the previous posts about OSH '06
> (including my own) have been about the problems encountered en route to
> and from the Big Show. In all the controversy, the show itself has
> been barely mentioned! Time to rectify this:
>
snip

> RV World
> Van's RVs continue to build their commanding lead over every other
> home-built aircraft, and they were at the show in force. The many
> variants, the many modifications, the many personal touches, and the
> incredible array of cool paint jobs and interiors made me want to own
> one in the worst way. RVs are simply cool -- I sure wish they'd build
> one for me.
snip
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
>
If you think you want one, do not... I repeat do not... ever fly one. It will cost you several many mucho AMUs

My tail kit was supposed to ship yesterday. :' )
Tools due to begin arriving as soon as today.

Joe Schneider
Cherokee 8437R



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[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> SNF happens at the exact time we're getting ready to plant :( I'll never
>> make SNF unless they change the date.
>
> Yeah, and we'll never see SnF again unless they change the dates to
> coincide with my kids' spring break.
>
> Sounds like you and I will be crying in our beers together next April,
> eh?
>
> :-)
> --

Take the kids out of school for a week. Which do you think they will
remember more 20 years from now, a week of school or spending a few days on
the flight line with Mom & Dad?

[ET]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in
:

>> Oshkosh is a state of mind, for me, not an airshow -- and I'm
>> happiest when I'm there. After my feet and sunburn recover, I'll
>> know I will begin anew counting the days to OSH '07!
>
> Here Here! I've been going (most years) since 1986. There's just
> something about the environment that makes you want to live there
> (although we have to have jobs, I guess). Great people, great times.
> And I hear that they have a neat party in the North 40 on Wednesday
> nights, but I just like to spend my time hiking then ;) (maybe I'll
> find you next year!)
>
> jf
>
>

You gotta do what I did... Call the Hotel, they give your Jay's cell phone,
Jay says "We're over here!!"

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jay Honeck]

> Take the kids out of school for a week. Which do you think they will
> remember more 20 years from now, a week of school or spending a few days on
> the flight line with Mom & Dad?

We did that in '03 and '04. By '05, my son was in advanced classes,
and he told me in no uncertain terms that missing a week of high school
would be disastrous.

That was one of my proudest moments with him, actually. It took a lot
of guts to say that, when everything in him wanted to go to Florida.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> If you think you want one, do not... I repeat do not... ever fly one. It will cost you several many mucho AMUs
>
> My tail kit was supposed to ship yesterday. :' )
> Tools due to begin arriving as soon as today.

No, Joe, there's no worry about that happening. I've seen way too many
happy guys go down the home building road (both with airplanes *and*
houses, by the way) to ever want to try it.

Some have finished their aircraft, but they are in the minority -- and
all have spent way too much time in unheated garages (or hangars),
while I was out flying.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>> Take the kids out of school for a week. Which do you think they will
>> remember more 20 years from now, a week of school or spending a few days
>> on
>> the flight line with Mom & Dad?
>
> We did that in '03 and '04. By '05, my son was in advanced classes,
> and he told me in no uncertain terms that missing a week of high school
> would be disastrous.
>
> That was one of my proudest moments with him, actually. It took a lot
> of guts to say that, when everything in him wanted to go to Florida.
> --


While I applaud his dedication I think we both know that unless the week was
during exams or such disastrous would be a bit of an over statement. I have
a 15 year old. I fully understand overstatements.

[Jay Honeck]

> While I applaud his dedication I think we both know that unless the week was
> during exams or such disastrous would be a bit of an over statement. I have
> a 15 year old. I fully understand overstatements.

Well, I'm not sure. Some of the homework that boy brings home is quite
complex. His advanced math classes alone are enough to give me a
sinking feeling in the pit of my stomach. Of course, I was an English
major -- so what do I know about math?

Still, even Mary -- who took advanced calculus in college -- often had
to read the book to help Joe with his homework. She says that this
year (his junior year in H.S.) he'll be beyond her capability to help
him.

Too bad the government has abandoned our space program -- he'd make a
great rocket scientist. Maybe the Chinese will be hiring in 2011?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> > Too bad the government has abandoned our space program -- he'd make a
> > great rocket scientist. Maybe the Chinese will be hiring in 2011?
>
> do you really believe that the Chinese need us from the west?

No. But Joe might need *them*.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> do you really believe that the Chinese need us from the west? they have
> more than a billion people. And they 'produce' scientists on a basis we
> only can dream of.

That may or may not be an advantage. Culture counts for alot.
The United States, for all its population to draw from, still cannot
field a World Cup winning soccer team. Why? Because the sport is not
sufficiently developed in our culture above the elementary school level.
The same applies to academics. Unless there exists a culture where free
speech and thought are encouraged, ideas will not flow. China has a way
to go before we see this happen.

[john smith]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> john smith > wrote:
>
> > China has a way
> > to go before we see this happen.
>
> IBTD. They hire 3 scientists where we take 1. And copying is an art over
> there and not seen as a bad or illegal thing.

Copying is no substitute for innovation.

[Morgans[_3_]]

> > IBTD. They hire 3 scientists where we take 1. And copying is an art over
> > there and not seen as a bad or illegal thing.
>
> Copying is no substitute for innovation.

Yes, but until they change, China is all about copying what they find
elsewhere, including the manufacturing processes, with all of the ecological
and safety measures taken off, of course.

They are polluting their future generations.
--
Jim in NC

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:07:25 -0400, Morgans wrote:

>They are polluting their future generations.

unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
have no say, IMHO.

#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>>They are polluting their future generations.
>
> unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
> have no say, IMHO.

Have you signed the Kyoto treaty? Somehow, I doubt it. So by your own
opinion, you have no say.

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 02:13:10 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>> unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
>> have no say, IMHO.

[2]

>Have you signed the Kyoto treaty?

yes. [1]

>Somehow, I doubt it.

*bah*

>So by your own
>opinion, you have no say.

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kyoto_Protocol_signatories>
there are not so many red spots .... [1]


[1] to answer your question: Austria has signed on Sep 24th 1998 and
ratified on May 31st 2002.
[2] I have to correct myself: you (the USA) have signed, but not ratified:
<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kyoto_Protocol#Position_of_the_United_States>


#m
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 02:13:10 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:
>
> >> unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
> >> have no say, IMHO.
>
> [2]
>
> >Have you signed the Kyoto treaty?
>
> yes. [1]

I'm guessing Peter meant you personally signed the treaty.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Martin Hotze > wrote:

> >They are polluting their future generations.
>
> unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
> have no say, IMHO.

signing and ratifying a treaty doesn't mean much. What I'm interested in
is acting in an actual environmentally friendly manner, not whatever hoo-hoo
is popular

And it's easy for some p***ant-sized nothing country to pontificate when
its too small to matter wrt pollution.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 13:07:25 -0400, Morgans wrote:
>
> >They are polluting their future generations.
>
> unless you don't at least sign the Kyoto treaty and act accordingly you
> have no say, IMHO.

That is such a ridiculous connection, as to make you look foolish.

Global warming is but one aspect of pollution. Our EPA keeps so many forms
of pollution is check, that is not even thought of being prevented in China.

I have friends who travel to China on a regular basis, and what they tell me
is common place pollution is, well, appalling.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
>>Have you signed the Kyoto treaty?
>
> yes. [1]

You answered "yes", but your footnote discusses Austria's signing of the
treaty, not your own.

I ask again: have YOU signed the Kyoto treaty?

> [...]
> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kyoto_Protocol_signatories>
> there are not so many red spots .... [1]

I looked at that list. I didn't see your name on it. In fact, the entire
list is of countries, not individual people.

So, again, by your own opinion, you have no say.

Pete

[Martin Hotze[_1_]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 10:07:43 -0700, Peter Duniho wrote:

>I ask again: have YOU signed the Kyoto treaty?
[...]
>> <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Kyoto_Protocol_signatories>
>> there are not so many red spots .... [1]
>
>I looked at that list. I didn't see your name on it. In fact, the entire
>list is of countries, not individual people.
>
>So, again, by your own opinion, you have no say.
>
>Pete

*wow* .. stick a finger up your ass!
Idiot.

Yes, I started calling names. Do whatever you want.

EOD.

#m, *shakinghead*

(fup2poster, you are free to ignore it)
--
Did you ever realize how much text fits in eighty columns? If you now consider
that a signature usually consists of up to four lines, this gives you enough
space to spread a tremendous amount of information with your messages. So seize
this opportunity and don't waste your signature with bull**** nobody will read.

[Peter Duniho]

"Martin Hotze" > wrote in message
...
> *wow* .. stick a finger up your ass!

Thanks for the offer, but you can keep your finger to yourself.

> Idiot.

You insist that a person needs to have signed the Kyoto treaty to express an
opinion on environmental issues, you haven't signed the treaty yourself in
spite of claiming that you have, and *I* am the idiot?

I suppose I could interpret your statement to mean that a person's
*government* needs to have signed the Kyoto treaty for *that person* to
express an opinion on environmental issues, but that's an even more idiotic
stance than the one I chose to infer. In what rational world is a person
required to agree with their own government, or be limited in their opinions
by how their government acts?

Still, you fail to surprise. Idiotic claims and opinions, ad hominem
attacks, and a complete lack of contribution to the actual *aviation* nature
of this newsgroup are pretty much your calling cards.

> (fup2poster, you are free to ignore it)

If you actually believed in following-up to the poster, you'd have sent your
flame in email in the first place. But then, I don't suppose I should be
surprised by your hypocritical behavior either.

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> I have friends who travel to China on a regular basis, and what they tell me
> is common place pollution is, well, appalling.

True enough -- but at least they have jobs.

I was once again reminded of the horrendous situation in America's
industrial heartland this weekend, when I traveled to my hometown of
Racine, WI for my 30-year high school class reunion.

Once home to all kinds of heavy industry -- including what was once the
largest tractor plant in the WORLD -- Racine is now a nice,
no-longer-polluted city on the shores of no-longer-polluted Lake
Michigan -- and no one has a decent job. We over-flew the city's once
immense industrial infrastructure, and were stunned to find nothing but
large fields of grass. All the factories are simply gone -- and the
comfortable upper-middle class lifestyle that Racine once enjoyed is
gone, too.

Was this all due to the stingy anti-pollution laws our EPA imposed on
heavy industry in the 1960s and 70s? Of course not. But the rise of
EPA regulations and the decline of Racine's industrial infrastructure
is a straight-line correlation -- so be careful how proud you are of
our vaunted environmental laws. A LOT of hard-working folks have been
thrown into near-poverty at least partially because of them.

On the brighter side, Racine's citizens can now enjoy their beautiful
lakeshore, and are proud to show it off to all the Chicago-area
visitors who now provide them with slightly-above-minimum-wafe
employment in the tourist industry.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Don Tuite]

On 6 Aug 2006 21:03:07 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote:

>> I have friends who travel to China on a regular basis, and what they tell me
>> is common place pollution is, well, appalling.
>
>True enough -- but at least they have jobs.
>
>I was once again reminded of the horrendous situation in America's
>industrial heartland this weekend, when I traveled to my hometown of
>Racine, WI for my 30-year high school class reunion.
>
>Once home to all kinds of heavy industry -- including what was once the
>largest tractor plant in the WORLD -- Racine is now a nice,
>no-longer-polluted city on the shores of no-longer-polluted Lake
>Michigan -- and no one has a decent job. We over-flew the city's once
>immense industrial infrastructure, and were stunned to find nothing but
>large fields of grass. All the factories are simply gone -- and the
>comfortable upper-middle class lifestyle that Racine once enjoyed is
>gone, too.
>
>Was this all due to the stingy anti-pollution laws our EPA imposed on
>heavy industry in the 1960s and 70s? Of course not. But the rise of
>EPA regulations and the decline of Racine's industrial infrastructure
>is a straight-line correlation -- so be careful how proud you are of
>our vaunted environmental laws. A LOT of hard-working folks have been
>thrown into near-poverty at least partially because of them.
>
>On the brighter side, Racine's citizens can now enjoy their beautiful
>lakeshore, and are proud to show it off to all the Chicago-area
>visitors who now provide them with slightly-above-minimum-wafe
>employment in the tourist industry.

I'd less blame the EPA than note that Kubota wanted the worldwide
business, and Caterpillar, Cummins, Ingersol, etc couldn't get the
investment $$ from investors intoxicated on bubble money to match what
the Asians were doing in terms of quality and manufacturing efficiency
on what was essentially free money. Meanwhile, the parents of the
current young citizens of Racine did everything they could to protect
their jobs, salaries and pensions with no thought for what that would
do to the companies they worked for. Unfortunately, the multinationals
that buy most of the farm equipment look at capital costs and
maintenance costs and buy Kubotas or whatever.

The good news is what goes around comes around. Japan's bubble burst
years ago and Korea and Taiwan can't be far behind. Remarkably, for
all its corruption, some people in China seem to be looking at
long-term stability instead of get-rich-quick.

Don

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote

> All the factories are simply gone -- and the
> comfortable upper-middle class lifestyle that Racine once enjoyed is
> gone, too.
>
> Was this all due to the stingy anti-pollution laws our EPA imposed on
> heavy industry in the 1960s and 70s? Of course not. But the rise of
> EPA regulations and the decline of Racine's industrial infrastructure
> is a straight-line correlation -- so be careful how proud you are of
> our vaunted environmental laws. A LOT of hard-working folks have been
> thrown into near-poverty at least partially because of them.

Oh, make no mistake; I'm none the too proud of our EPA or OSHA.

Lenoir NC, used to be called the furniture capital of the US. Layoffs have
been drastic, with most of the wood being shipped to China, where it is
assembled into furniture, and re-sold to the US.

Now, we are trying to reinvent ourselves into a high tech and retirement and
tourism community. I fear we will be a ghost town, before it is all over.
--
Jim in NC

[john smith]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > On the brighter side, Racine's citizens can now enjoy their beautiful
> > lakeshore, and are proud to show it off to all the Chicago-area
> > visitors who now provide them with slightly-above-minimum-wafe
> > employment in the tourist industry.

> Ahem.
> That should read "...slightly-above-minimum-WAGE employment..."

Funny, I thought you meant "waif".

[Jose[_1_]]

> Racine is now a nice,
> no-longer-polluted city on the shores of no-longer-polluted Lake
> Michigan -- and no one has a decent job.

Should we pay them to destroy our ecology? The same kind of argument
can be made for cocaine distributers if we manage to win the war on drugs.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> > Racine is now a nice,
> > no-longer-polluted city on the shores of no-longer-polluted Lake
> > Michigan -- and no one has a decent job.
>
> Should we pay them to destroy our ecology? The same kind of argument
> can be made for cocaine distributers if we manage to win the war on drugs.

Ah, it's all a balance, isn't it? It's easy for those of us who have
nice jobs and enjoy the clean, wonderful Great Lakes to just sit back
with a cold beer and congratulate ourselves for our great envoronmental
success story. In truth, I *love* the "new" Lake Michigan that now
exists in my hometown, and it's great that my kids can see their feet
when they go swimming there nowadays. (I certainly couldn't, back in
the 1970s...)

Trouble is, there's a deep, dark underbelly to the story that no one in
the environmental movement wants to acknowledge. All those thousands
of poor, uneducated, under-employed folks left behind are the
"collateral damage" of the well-meaning elite's successful effort to
"clean up American industry"...

The elite should be glad that those folks truly *are* uneducated, or
they might be fearing for their lives right now.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jose[_1_]]

>>>Racine is now a nice,
>>> no-longer-polluted city on the shores of no-longer-polluted Lake
>>> Michigan -- and no one has a decent job.
>> Should we pay them to destroy our ecology? The same kind of argument
>> can be made for cocaine distributers if we manage to win the war on drugs.
> Ah, it's all a balance, isn't it?

I didn't say or imply that "it's all a balance". I am merely pointing
out that one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter. I
suppose you are doing the same thing, from the other side.

Yes, there is a "deep dark underbelly", but which side it refers to
depends on what the status quo was before. Find a nice beautiful place
and turn it into an economic dynamo by strip mining and chemical
processing, and the deep dark underbelly is the pollution and ecological
devastation. Turn it =back= into a nice beautiful place and the deep
dark underbelly is the economic damage and displaced industry.

It's just a question that when change is made, some ox is gored.

However, I will say that it is unjust to create economic wealth at the
unwilling expense of others. That is what pollution does, that is what
the proliferatin of big box stores does, that is what the illigal drug
industry does, and that is what crime in general does.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

Against my better judgment with respect to contributing to such an off-topic
thread, I just need to point a couple of things...

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
> [...] Turn it =back= into a nice beautiful place and the deep dark
> underbelly is the economic damage and displaced industry.

Jay's comments about Lake Michigan, and even your own "a nice beautiful
place", seem to imply that protecting the environment is only about
aesthetics. Frankly, the *least* of Jay's concerns should be that his kids
can see their feet while swimming in Lake Michigan. Pollution has very
real, very serious long-term health consequences, both for ourselves and for
every other living thing on the planet (and some inanimate things as well,
for that matter).

Love Canal is a good example, extreme though it may be. But beyond that,
low-level pollution, whether PCBs, pesticides, chemotherapy drugs (yes, as
various drugs gain wider use, they are now showing up in our waterways),
heavy metals, or any number of other harmful substances, all wind up in our
environment where we absorb them through a variety of mechanisms (one common
one is a consequence of us being at the top of the food chain...basically,
we wind up eating or drinking all that crap). The effects usually aren't as
overt as those at Love Canal, but they are still very real, and very serious
to the people to whom they occur. In many cases, they affect ALL of us,
even if the pollution appears to be localized.

This isn't just about having a place to live that looks nice. It's about
not killing ourselves and every other living thing around us.

That said, my second point is that we've had this thread already, and Jay
has already expressed his attitude that economic change is bad (and make no
mistake...this is about economic *change*, not economic harm...there's no
reason these towns can't adapt, even though in many cases they don't) and
that "environmentalists" are responsible for a variety of woes in this
country. I fail to see the use in pursuing the discussion once again with
him...he's not going to change his mind, and you just get muddy trying to
convince him to.

Pete

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

You're in Lenoir? We regularly used to load trucks from Lenoir... Conover
Chair company if I recall correctly. We also used to load other furniture
company trucks from Hickory Chair and Broyhill... but as you say the
furniture industry in NC has been devastated. We haven't seen a Broyhill
truck around here in years and I think they closed their Midwest factory
return center in Minnesota. We also used to load trucks from Comscope, the
cabling company. During the days of huge commercial building expansion,
Comscope used to ship 2 semi loads of cable to Minneapolis every week. But
that industry has died also.

As for the EPA, there's a special place in hell reserved for them. Did
anybody else read the proposal to shoot sulfur missiles into the atmosphere
to add "natural contaminants" to the atmosphere to reduce the intensity of
the sun and global warming??!! Hello? Ok, we've made the air TOO clean and
now we need pollution to give us a break from the sun?

For years and years the EPA hounded our local paper mills to reduce sulfur
emissions. Cries of acid rain rang from every backwoods hobo and car
dealership in the upper midwest. We, farmers, now have to ADD sulfur to our
fertilizer program to maintain proper soil fertility. Now somebody seems to
think they went too far and they want to add sulfur to the atmosphere. gees
make up my mind so I don't think I'm the one that is crazy.

Jim

[Peter Duniho]

"Jim Burns" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> As for the EPA, there's a special place in hell reserved for them.

Seem to me, pretty much everyone has a special place in hell reserved for
them. You probably have your assigned seat too.

> Did
> anybody else read the proposal to shoot sulfur missiles into the
> atmosphere
> to add "natural contaminants" to the atmosphere to reduce the intensity of
> the sun and global warming??!!

What's that got to do with the EPA? I presume you're talking about the
comment made by a well-respected German scientist (and Nobel laureate), Paul
Crutzen. It's all over the right-wing agenda press, taken out of context as
usual. But it's not the EPA proposing it.

> Hello? Ok, we've made the air TOO clean and
> now we need pollution to give us a break from the sun?

As Crutzen specifically points out, it's simply an idea for *consideration*
as a *last resort* to address the *failure* of society to address global
warming *now*.

In other words, if we ignore the problem to the point where we basically
either allow our inaction to cause the planet to bake itself to death or we
do something drastic like pollute the atmosphere enough to provide some
shade, then the answer may well be to pollute the atmosphere enough to
provide some shade.

Ironically, it's the very people pretending that this suggestion is intended
as a "something we can do right now" idea that may well force us into doing
something so drastic in the future. The longer people insist on believing
that we have nothing to worry about and that global warming is just a big
hoax, the more likely it will be that drastic solutions such as
intentionally polluting our atmosphere will be required.

The idea you're talking about in no way undermines the legitimacy of
environmental science. But I do see how it's just the thing that Dittoheads
(or whatever today's equivalent is...I find it hard to believe that anyone
is still taking Limbaugh seriously) would grab onto in their perpetual quest
to argue against rational thought.

> For years and years the EPA hounded our local paper mills to reduce sulfur
> emissions. Cries of acid rain rang from every backwoods hobo and car
> dealership in the upper midwest.

As well they should. Sulfuric acid raining down on us is bad for a variety
of reasons.

> We, farmers, now have to ADD sulfur to our
> fertilizer program to maintain proper soil fertility.

It's true, sulfur is an important trace element for living things, including
plants. Sulfuric acid is still bad for living things, and stopping man-made
acid rain is NOT why soil becomes (or in many cases, always has been)
sulfur-deficient.

> Now somebody seems to
> think they went too far and they want to add sulfur to the atmosphere.
> gees
> make up my mind so I don't think I'm the one that is crazy.

If you think that:

* adding sulfur to the atmosphere is being suggested as a front-line
answer to global warming

* industry should be intentionally emitting sulfur into the atmosphere

* sulfuric acid rain is a legitimate solution to sulfur-deficient soils

* the lack of sulfuric acid rain is the *cause* of sulfur-deficient
soils

Then yes...you are crazy. Or maybe an idiot. But for the moment, let's
just go with crazy...it somehow seems less offensive. :)

Pete

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jim Burns" > wrote

> You're in Lenoir?

Yep.

> We regularly used to load trucks from Lenoir... Conover
> Chair company if I recall correctly. We also used to load other furniture
> company trucks from Hickory Chair and Broyhill...

I think Hickory Chair has closed up shop, or almost closed. Hickory is the
next town over, and is about twice the size of Lenoir.

Broyhill and Bernhart are two giants, and have their headquarters here.
They both are closing plants about every 6 months, about 1200 employees at a
whack.

> But as you say the
> furniture industry in NC has been devastated. We haven't seen a Broyhill
> truck around here in years and I think they closed their Midwest factory
> return center in Minnesota. We also used to load trucks from Comscope,
the
> cabling company. During the days of huge commercial building expansion,
> Comscope used to ship 2 semi loads of cable to Minneapolis every week.
But
> that industry has died also.

Yep, Comscope has closed plants, and are half the size they used to be.
They are headquartered in Hickory. (HKY) That was where the F-86 went down,
off of an aborted takeoff, right before OSH. Pity. A real class guy and a
really fine plane. It was one of the best Sabers I have ever seen.
--
Jim in NC

[Peter R.]

Morgans > wrote:

> "Jim Burns" > wrote
>
>> You're in Lenoir?
>
> Yep.

Hey, Jim, my mother used to live in Lenoir up until three years ago when
she moved to Hickory.

At her recommendation I flew down one weekend in 1996 and toured the
showroom of Blowing Rock Furniture store, then bought some Thomasville and
Broyhill products and had them shipped northward to NY. The savings was
close to 50% over our local furniture stores, even considering the two
hundred dollar shipping charges tacked on.

I hear that these types of savings are no longer possible, perhaps due to
the fact that all of those companies are in the process of relocating?

Speaking of Hickory, that is a nice GA airport there. Too bad about the
airport losing the commercial flights, but it looks as if someone invested
some money into the FBO there. When I flew down in May this year to visit
my mother, the FBO looked brand new and very clean.


--
Peter

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Peter R." > wrote
>
> Hey, Jim, my mother used to live in Lenoir up until three years ago when
> she moved to Hickory.

Small world.
>
> At her recommendation I flew down one weekend in 1996 and toured the
> showroom of Blowing Rock Furniture store, then bought some Thomasville and
> Broyhill products and had them shipped northward to NY. The savings was
> close to 50% over our local furniture stores, even considering the two
> hundred dollar shipping charges tacked on.
>
> I hear that these types of savings are no longer possible, perhaps due to
> the fact that all of those companies are in the process of relocating?

Far as I know, you can still get the big deals. Anyone furnishing a neaw
house would be well advised to come and buy, then ship, for BIG savings.

> Speaking of Hickory, that is a nice GA airport there. Too bad about the
> airport losing the commercial flights, but it looks as if someone invested
> some money into the FBO there. When I flew down in May this year to visit
> my mother, the FBO looked brand new and very clean.

I don't know why we could not make the commercial flights go. We had
service, then lost it for a few years, got it back and it flopped. I think
it was one of those things, where they did not have enough flights to make
it convienient to go places, with enough diversity, so nobody used it for
anything.

Yep, the new FBO is a beautiful complex. It was needed; the old place was a
hole.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Burns]

Yep... Know right where Hickory is. We still ship into Hickory, mostly
smaller companies. Sometimes we deal with L&M Produce which also has
warehouses in Raleigh. We used to ship into Taylorsville also, that's where
the Broyhill trucks used to deliver for us, but the place in Taylorsville is
kind of shaky these days. How many times I tried to get the Broyhill
traffic manager to sell me some furniture at discounted prices and leave it
on the trucks for me... no dice. ;(

We recently picked up a customer south of Hickory, just across the VA border
in Cana, VA. They take about a semi load per week. In fact, they were here
this morning and bought a few Angus bulls.

It's amazing how many Wisconsin potatoes the small towns surrounding your
local area use. Thanks!

Jim

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Burns" > wrote
>
>> You're in Lenoir?
>
> Yep.
>
>> We regularly used to load trucks from Lenoir... Conover
>> Chair company if I recall correctly. We also used to load other
>> furniture
>> company trucks from Hickory Chair and Broyhill...
>
> I think Hickory Chair has closed up shop, or almost closed. Hickory is the
> next town over, and is about twice the size of Lenoir.
>
> Broyhill and Bernhart are two giants, and have their headquarters here.
> They both are closing plants about every 6 months, about 1200 employees at
> a
> whack.
>
>> But as you say the
>> furniture industry in NC has been devastated. We haven't seen a Broyhill
>> truck around here in years and I think they closed their Midwest factory
>> return center in Minnesota. We also used to load trucks from Comscope,
> the
>> cabling company. During the days of huge commercial building expansion,
>> Comscope used to ship 2 semi loads of cable to Minneapolis every week.
> But
>> that industry has died also.
>
> Yep, Comscope has closed plants, and are half the size they used to be.
> They are headquartered in Hickory. (HKY) That was where the F-86 went
> down,
> off of an aborted takeoff, right before OSH. Pity. A real class guy and
> a
> really fine plane. It was one of the best Sabers I have ever seen.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Peter Duniho]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
> To let it go (again) unchallenged is to concede the point, which is too
> important to let go.

I guess I'll just have to disagree there. This is a piloting newsgroup,
this kind of stuff comes up all the time in spite of being way off topic,
and it never goes anywhere productive.

I let all sorts of off-topic points go unchallenged, some of them just as
important as the question of caring for the environment. I'm not conceding
the point. This just isn't the place to have the discussion (even assuming
there's a point to the discussion and, IMHO, most of these topics that come
up here, you are never going to make headway with the other person...the
biases are so ingrained, no amount of debate is going to change anyone's
mind).

But more power to you. If you find it useful, please feel free. :)

Pete

[Jay Honeck]

> Yep, Comscope has closed plants, and are half the size they used to be.
> They are headquartered in Hickory. (HKY) That was where the F-86 went down,
> off of an aborted takeoff, right before OSH. Pity. A real class guy and a
> really fine plane. It was one of the best Sabers I have ever seen.

Please tell me it wasn't the Sabre with the "Batman" logo painted on
the side?

That's been my son's favorite plane since he was a toddler...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> This isn't just about having a place to live that looks nice. It's about
> not killing ourselves and every other living thing around us.

I agree with you more than you might believe, Pete. I don't want a
polluted world for my kids -- period.

My main point is simply that you (and I, for that matter) should be
glad that all the under-employed, under-educated folks who are facing
economic catastrophe because of what we've done are truly ignorant of
the situation. If they ever wake up to the fact that they've been
thrown into the under-class in exchange for cleaner air and water, they
might grow hostile to your cause.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jim Burns" > wrote

> We used to ship into Taylorsville also, that's where
> the Broyhill trucks used to deliver for us, but the place in Taylorsville
is
> kind of shaky these days.

Taylorsville is where I teach carpentry, at the high school.

I'll bet I go past the place you are talking about, every day. It should be
a little better, in the past 6 months to a year, since ownership changed
hands, due to total mismanagement, from the scuttlebutt I hear. Maybe still
shaky, though, huh? <g>

What brand or name do you ship your product under? This is really a small
world!
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Yep, Comscope has closed plants, and are half the size they used to be.
> > They are headquartered in Hickory. (HKY) That was where the F-86 went
down,
> > off of an aborted takeoff, right before OSH. Pity. A real class guy
and a
> > really fine plane. It was one of the best Sabers I have ever seen.
>
> Please tell me it wasn't the Sabre with the "Batman" logo painted on
> the side?
>
> That's been my son's favorite plane since he was a toddler...

No, it had brightly colored bold stripes painted on the vertical stabilizer,
and out on the fuselage, and the bottom of the horizontal was a red and
white star field.

Here is the home page for the plane, with pictures, kinda'.
<http://www.flyingfossilsairshows.com/site.html>
--
Jim in NC

[john smith]

In article m>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

> > This isn't just about having a place to live that looks nice. It's about
> > not killing ourselves and every other living thing around us.
>
> I agree with you more than you might believe, Pete. I don't want a
> polluted world for my kids -- period.
>
> My main point is simply that you (and I, for that matter) should be
> glad that all the under-employed, under-educated folks who are facing
> economic catastrophe because of what we've done are truly ignorant of
> the situation. If they ever wake up to the fact that they've been
> thrown into the under-class in exchange for cleaner air and water, they
> might grow hostile to your cause.

You're both missing the fact that new industries could have been created
to allow the old businesses to operate by mitigating the polution
sources. The polution sources simply chose to move to where they could
continue the old ways or shut down completely rather than adapt to
cleaner methods.

[john smith]

In article >,
"Morgans" > wrote:

> Yep, the new FBO is a beautiful complex. It was needed; the old place was a
> hole.

By "the old place", do you mean the one down over the hill in the
northwest (?) corner?

Where is the new one?

Could you take some pictures and post them to
alt.binaries.pictures.aviation?

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

The chain stores have recently dictated that they want all "branded"
products, which means we pack under their labels, thus allowing them to pull
from several sources, but our non chain affiliated direct customers would be
getting 'Burns' or Golden Pheasant brand.

Tommy's Market (now operating under Grapevine Produce) is the Taylorsville
customer that we used to ship to. I see that their credit rating is
currently pretty poor with payments averaging over 60 days. When the father
(Tommy) ran it, payment was within 7 days, then his son took it over and
payment got stretched out to 90 days only if you hounded them for it. My
understanding is now most of their inventory has been coming in from
Winston-Salem, Hickory, and even Raleigh as rejected produce that other
customers refuse. This allows them to cut the price and sell it at a
discount without providing a fixed purchase price to the consigner. It's a
very profitable way of doing business because there is no accountability.

As funny as it sounds, sometimes you can actually end up with a quality
product because the reasons that the chain stores reject loads are most
often due to unknowledgeable store inspectors or excess inventory.
Sometimes you beg a place like Tommy's to take your load of rejected
potatoes and sometimes you simply have the truck bring it all the way back
and pay the extra freight. Either way, it's expensive for the shipper.

Jim



"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Jim Burns" > wrote
>
> > We used to ship into Taylorsville also, that's where
> > the Broyhill trucks used to deliver for us, but the place in
Taylorsville
> is
> > kind of shaky these days.
>
> Taylorsville is where I teach carpentry, at the high school.
>
> I'll bet I go past the place you are talking about, every day. It should
be
> a little better, in the past 6 months to a year, since ownership changed
> hands, due to total mismanagement, from the scuttlebutt I hear. Maybe
still
> shaky, though, huh? <g>
>
> What brand or name do you ship your product under? This is really a small
> world!
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[Peter R.]

john smith > wrote:

> By "the old place", do you mean the one down over the hill in the
> northwest (?) corner?
>
> Where is the new one?

The new FBO at Hickory airport is right across the street from the old
commercial terminal. The latest airport diagram has it labeled correctly,
which you can see right in the upper middle of the diagram:

http://204.108.4.16/d-tpp/0608/00706AD.PDF

> Could you take some pictures and post them to
> alt.binaries.pictures.aviation?

Profile Aviation's website has some good pictures right on their home page:

http://www.profileaviation.com/

--
Peter

[Morgans[_3_]]

>
> > Yep, the new FBO is a beautiful complex. It was needed; the old place
was a
> > hole.
>
> By "the old place", do you mean the one down over the hill in the
> northwest (?) corner?

Yep.

> Where is the new one?

It is a two story building with entry to the top story off of the right side
of the commercial terminal building's paroking lot.

> Could you take some pictures and post them to
> alt.binaries.pictures.aviation?

I'll try to get over that way, some time, and take a picture, but it will be
a while. I'll post it as Hickory general aviation complex, or something
like that.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Here is the home page for the plane, with pictures, kinda'.
> <http://www.flyingfossilsairshows.com/site.html>

Thanks. Seems kinda odd that they're still soliciting business.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> > Here is the home page for the plane, with pictures, kinda'.
> > <http://www.flyingfossilsairshows.com/site.html>
>
> Thanks. Seems kinda odd that they're still soliciting business.

The page was more than likely done by the guy that died, and nobody has
taken it down.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> You're both missing the fact that new industries could have been created
> to allow the old businesses to operate by mitigating the polution
> sources. The polution sources simply chose to move to where they could
> continue the old ways or shut down completely rather than adapt to
> cleaner methods.

And why do you suppose "they" made that choice?

There were probably a hundred reasons, but one major one is simply
this: Making a manufacturing plant "clean" is very expensive.
Economics 101 taught us all that capital will always seek the lowest
cost -- and it did.

This was NOT an unexpected result of the environmental movement. My
father (30+ years in the energy industry) predicted it (as did
thousands of others), and many environmentalists openly acknowledged
the phenomenon as they were fighting the "clean wars" of the 1960s and
'70s.

They simply didn't care about the collateral economic damage, having
made the decision that they knew better.

Personally, I'm glad the air and water are cleaner -- after all, I
don't need a factory job -- but it really gripes me when some on the
Left play politics by wringing their hands about the loss of "good
jobs" when they (of all people) know what part they played in their
demise.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[.Blueskies.]

"Morgans" > wrote in message ...
:
: "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
: oups.com...
: > > Here is the home page for the plane, with pictures, kinda'.
: > > <http://www.flyingfossilsairshows.com/site.html>
: >
: > Thanks. Seems kinda odd that they're still soliciting business.
:
: The page was more than likely done by the guy that died, and nobody has
: taken it down.
: --
: Jim in NC
:

This post is so far down I cannot see the subject anymore...

[.Blueskies.]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message ps.com...
:
: the situation. If they ever wake up to the fact that they've been
: thrown into the under-class in exchange for cleaner air and water, they
: might grow hostile to your cause.
: --
: Jay Honeck
: Iowa City, IA
: Pathfinder N56993
: www.AlexisParkInn.com
: "Your Aviation Destination"
:

Man oh man. This is America! Folks adapt and make fortunes on ideas and freedom. Folks are not thrown into an
'underclass' situation, most choose it in one way or another because of their life choices, and if they want to make
themselves better off there is plenty of opportunity. We are not a welfare society (anymore?) as much as we used to be.
Some think there is no other way than the old ways - they will be left behind...

[Morgans[_3_]]

".Blueskies." > wrote

> This post is so far down I cannot see the subject anymore...

We were talking about the F-86 that went down, on the way to OSH.
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Honeck]

> Man oh man. This is America! Folks adapt and make fortunes on ideas and freedom. Folks are not thrown into an
> 'underclass' situation, most choose it in one way or another because of their life choices, and if they want to make
> themselves better off there is plenty of opportunity. We are not a welfare society (anymore?) as much as we used to be.
> Some think there is no other way than the old ways - they will be left behind...

As someone who has started three businesses, I certainly believe that
the "American Dream" is alive and well. For those who want it,
success is there for the having.

However, having worked with the public for many years, I am also aware
that there are a vast number of Americans who are, essentially,
non-functional. This semi-literate, semi-skilled, semi-motivated
group of people were, until very recently, well-employed in American
heavy industry. They are now working as best they can at the margins
of our society, and have been "thrown" into semi-poverty.

The reasons for this phenomenon are many, but the push to make American
industry "green" was certainly a major reason for its move overseas,
where such environmental rules don't exist. As I've said, the folks
who instigated these environmental mandates (which, quite honestly,
have benefited the rest of us greatly) should thank their lucky stars
that this large group of non-functional Americans are truly ignorant of
the reasons for their plight.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Matt Whiting]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>Man oh man. This is America! Folks adapt and make fortunes on ideas and freedom. Folks are not thrown into an
>>'underclass' situation, most choose it in one way or another because of their life choices, and if they want to make
>>themselves better off there is plenty of opportunity. We are not a welfare society (anymore?) as much as we used to be.
>>Some think there is no other way than the old ways - they will be left behind...
>
>
> As someone who has started three businesses, I certainly believe that
> the "American Dream" is alive and well. For those who want it,
> success is there for the having.

You are currently running three businesses! How do you find time to post?


> However, having worked with the public for many years, I am also aware
> that there are a vast number of Americans who are, essentially,
> non-functional. This semi-literate, semi-skilled, semi-motivated
> group of people were, until very recently, well-employed in American
> heavy industry. They are now working as best they can at the margins
> of our society, and have been "thrown" into semi-poverty.
>
> The reasons for this phenomenon are many, but the push to make American
> industry "green" was certainly a major reason for its move overseas,
> where such environmental rules don't exist. As I've said, the folks
> who instigated these environmental mandates (which, quite honestly,
> have benefited the rest of us greatly) should thank their lucky stars
> that this large group of non-functional Americans are truly ignorant of
> the reasons for their plight.

I find it hard to believe that this was a major reason among the many
reasons. I think unions played a bigger role than environmental
regulations. I think greedy and shortsighted management played a bigger
role. I think the costs of torts was a bigger factor. I know Cessna
stopped making light airplanes for a decade or so due to liability
insurance costs, not environmental costs.


Matt