Made in the USA

[Lou]

Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
assembled here.
I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
here?
Just a thought.
Lou

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Lou" > said:
>I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
>made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
>really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell

You have to remember that LSA is a response to an existing European class
(Microlight?). Most LSAs you see now were developed in Europe a few years
ago for that class - but as LSA matures, more US manufacturers will step
up. Just look at Cessna - they had a proof of concept demonstrator there,
and with their name recognition I bet they'd sell hundreds of them if they
went into production. All those flight schools looking to replace their
aging 150s would be a sure bet to prefer a new Cessna.

It will help when US manufacturers come up with an engine that can compete
with the Rotax and Jabiru ones.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
`I was all fired up to write a big rant, but instead found apathy to be a
more worthwhile solution.' --- Ashley Penney

[Lou]

You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and
requirements of flying. This way USA would increase their pilot
community instead of the current decrease. Now I will agree with you
that Americans need to develop a good engine to compete rather than the
dissappointing choices we have now. Really, how hard can this be for
any of the current engine (not limited to aviation) manufacturer's to
figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
for under $120,000.
If this is the case I don't think you will see alot of 152's being
replaced with this airplane. They won't be targeting that group so
their advertising points will not be towards this group. After all if
you can get a plane with the same qualities as a Cessna for $20.000 and
the flight school needs five planes for replacement, It would be like a
buy 5 get one free sale.
Lou

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Lou" > said:
>You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
>Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and

Look at the max gross weight on LSA. 1320 pounds isn't a very round
number and you might wonder why they chose it, but the Microlight class
was already limited to 600kg and they just converted that to pounds and
rounded down a bit.

>figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
>was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.

Except they're only looking at jets. People looking for cheap aircraft
aren't looking at jets. Several other car makers have tried aircraft
engine development, and decided it wasn't a money maker. And Continental
and Lycoming will just want to produce smaller versions of their existing
old-technology engines.

> As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
>for under $120,000.

I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

And after they've been on the market a few years, I'll be looking to buy a
used one.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
Education is what remains after one has forgotten everything he learned
in school. -- A. Einstein

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Lou wrote:
>
>...
> Aircraft should be one thing my country could
> excel at. We have everything needed,
> materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
> this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
> assembled here.

The very most expensive part of manufacturing most things is hourly
wages. So in parts of the globe where hourly wages are high, it's
expensive to make things unless your manufacturing processes are
extremely effecient and effective. Sure, the big Japanese car makers
can run car plants in the US with US workers. But observe that their
manufacturing processes are extremely, extremely effecient. It's
nothing at all like making the sort of things that sell at the low unit
numbers of aircraft and aviation products. Almost everybody's got a
car, but almost nobody owns an airplane.

Further, observe that a great deal of commercial aircraft inspection,
repair, modification, and maintenance has already been outsourced. Now
a lot of it is done in places like South America, Asia, and Eastern
Europe - places that have dedicated specialists combined with low
hourly wages. Yes, we've got everything we need to excel at aircraft
and aviation. But plenty of other countries do too, and many of them
have wage and class structures that makes the most expensive part of it
cheaper.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24

[Philippe Vessaire]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

>> As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
>>for under $120,000.
>
> I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since
> that seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

If you see Poland or Tchek LSA (JAR-VLA) plane, you can't expect long
life, made like ultralight.
If you see a C150, you see planes with thousand flying hours....

I would prefer spend $120k for Cessna LSA (or french APM01) than $90k
for an AT3

http://www.apm20lionceau.com/
http://www.edsmart.com/falcon/at3.htm


by
--
Pub: http://www.slowfood.fr/france
Philippe Vessaire ҿӬ

[Ken Finney]

"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
> Eroupe, but it was my understanding that LSA was to lower the cost and
> requirements of flying. This way USA would increase their pilot
> community instead of the current decrease. Now I will agree with you
> that Americans need to develop a good engine to compete rather than the
> dissappointing choices we have now. Really, how hard can this be for
> any of the current engine (not limited to aviation) manufacturer's to
> figure out. Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
> was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
> As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
> for under $120,000.
> If this is the case I don't think you will see alot of 152's being
> replaced with this airplane. They won't be targeting that group so
> their advertising points will not be towards this group. After all if
> you can get a plane with the same qualities as a Cessna for $20.000 and
> the flight school needs five planes for replacement, It would be like a
> buy 5 get one free sale.
>

I thought flight schools bought new planes, wore them out, then sold them
for $20K?

I don't think it is really fair comparing new plane to used planes anymore
than it is comparing new cars to used cars. What, you just bought a new
Ram pickup for $32K when you could have bought a used one with 150K miles on
it for $10K?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:43:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
Tomblin) wrote:

>> You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
>> Eroupe....

Not precisely. The Sport Pilot limits were established to coincide with the
European Microlight definition. This meant that most, if not all, of the
existing, in-production Microlights already met Sport Pilot. To sell their
aircraft as ready-to-fly in the US, the European manufacturers then merely had
to take their aircraft through the new LSA certification process.

Until the LSA regulations were finalized, a US manufacturer didn't dare produce
an aircraft unless they intended to compete in the already-crowded European
market.

> > As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
> >for under $120,000.
>
> I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
> seems to be the competitive price for LSA.

I've heard that the new Cessna isn't intended as an LSA. It meets the Sport
Pilot limits, but Cessna will supposedly certify it in the Normal category.

It makes a heck of a lot of sense. Cessna has all the corporate processes for a
Normal category certification, and they minimize their liability exposure since
maintenance and inspections will still require A&Ps.

> And after they've been on the market a few years, I'll be looking to buy a
> used one.

Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the homebuilt
market.

Ron Wanttaja

[wesleymarceaux]

OK,,Want to know what I think about the L.S.A. part in U.S., look and think
about this,,250 pounds of aluminum cost , say two dollars a foot,,drill a
hole in each end of a length of tubing and suddenly it's an airplane part
and cost 50 times the purchase price. Labor is not the total cost of the
rise in price but human greed on the part of the manufacturer..Is anybody
really worth one million dollars a month ON RETIREMENT??? Americans are
spoiled rotten and totally consumed with their own greed . If they have one
good thought about something,instead of sharing, they want to be paid the
rest of their lives for it. We deserve to be destroyed as Sodom and Gomorra
..Even Christ drew a line in the sand and dared others to cross it. We have
no line except each our own and it s drawn in different places as the limit
of our morality .And some of us have none.!!!!
"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
> I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
> made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
> really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
> products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
> be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
> materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
> this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
> assembled here.
> I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
> buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
> just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
> isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
> price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
> I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
> here?
> Just a thought.
> Lou
>

[Lou]

...................and just when I thought I was going to have an
intelligent conversation.
Lou

[Ken Finney]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:43:13 +0000 (UTC), (Paul
> Tomblin) wrote:
>
>>> You may be right about the LSA being a response to the mircrolights of
>>> Eroupe....
>
> Not precisely. The Sport Pilot limits were established to coincide with
> the
> European Microlight definition. This meant that most, if not all, of the
> existing, in-production Microlights already met Sport Pilot. To sell
> their
> aircraft as ready-to-fly in the US, the European manufacturers then merely
> had
> to take their aircraft through the new LSA certification process.
>
> Until the LSA regulations were finalized, a US manufacturer didn't dare
> produce
> an aircraft unless they intended to compete in the already-crowded
> European
> market.
>
>> > As for Cessna's proof of concept. I would be very suprised if it sold
>> >for under $120,000.
>>
>> I would be very surprised if it wasn't between $90K and $100K, since that
>> seems to be the competitive price for LSA.
>
> I've heard that the new Cessna isn't intended as an LSA. It meets the
> Sport
> Pilot limits, but Cessna will supposedly certify it in the Normal
> category.
>
> It makes a heck of a lot of sense. Cessna has all the corporate processes
> for a
> Normal category certification, and they minimize their liability exposure
> since
> maintenance and inspections will still require A&Ps.
>

< snip >

Personally, I think Cessna has nailed it. The LSA will be the new 152,
flight schools can use it for both PPL and SP instruction, insurance will be
lower, and they build the brand. And their new "next generation" aircraft
appears to be the right plane at the right time as well.

[Morgans[_3_]]

> Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
homebuilt
> market.

Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty much
shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.
--
Jim in NC

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0400, "Morgans" > wrote:

> > Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
> > homebuilt market.
>
> Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty much
> shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.

Hmmmm. Why? The 100LL issue?

Ron Wanttaja

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
...
> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0400, "Morgans" >
wrote:
>
> > > Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for the
> > > homebuilt market.
> >
> > Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be pretty
much
> > shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.
>
> Hmmmm. Why? The 100LL issue?

Besides the fact that they are junk? <g>

No really, I think I remember hearing that, unlike Lycomings and
Continentals, if the jugs need to be replaced, or the crank, you don't
rebuild the core; just get a new one and put it in.
--
Jim in NC

[jc]

Paul Tomblin wrote:

<snip>

>All those flight schools looking to replace their
> aging 150s would be a sure bet to prefer a new Cessna.
>

Sales are currently limited by production but the Jabiru 160C is available
as a certified (ICAO not LSA) aircraft for under AUD 75,000 (USD 50k). ie a
new C150 equivalent for the price of a 25yo aircraft and rebuilt for xth
time engine (or a bad 100 hourly).

US price would have to be more with the liability issues

--

regards

jc

LEGAL - I don't believe what I wrote and neither should you. Sobriety and/or
sanity of the author is not guaranteed

EMAIL - and are not valid email
addresses. news2x at perentie is valid for a while.

[Bob Martin]

Lou wrote:
> Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
> I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
> made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is it
> really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
> products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft should
> be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything needed,
> materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every aircraft in
> this category is either imported or the parts are imported and then
> assembled here.
> I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
> buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
> just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
> isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
> price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck here.
> I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What happened
> here?


My theory: An excess of lawsuits.

Current aircraft and aircraft parts are so expensive because
manufacturers are afraid of being sued should anything happen to the
aircraft. IIRC, some legal decisions made 30-some-odd years ago set the
precedent that the manufacturer could be held liable in an accident,
regardless of the aircraft's (or part's) age, and often regardless of
the actual cause. Some aircraft manufacturers went out of business
because they didn't want to eventually end up being sued.

I don't know if or how foreign companies can be affected by these
lawsuits... but I would think that the sue-happy epidemic isn't as
widespread overseas. Therefore, combined with lower labor costs, they
can develop the aircraft cheaper, start them flying over there, and
recoup development costs first. Gaining US certification later would be
easier and cheaper, and therefore they can continue to offer them at a
lower price.



Additionally, getting something certified is a very expensive process,
and therefore more is charged to offset that cost. Avionics make an
interesting comparison. Say you have two autopilots with the same
capabilities. One is certified, the other is not (ie, intended for
homebuilts, which don't need the certification). The certified one will
almost certainly be several thousand dollars more. They might be from
the same manufacturer, and might even be the same product in a different
package. And since the pool of certified products is much smaller, they
can charge even more (supply/demand).

Bear in mind, too, that certified aircraft also need an A&P to do any
maintenance beyond something like changing the oil. Those guys cost
money, too. Didn't Canada create a category (called "owner maintained"
or something like that) where the owner is allowed to perform all
maintenance on an aircraft, but by doing so it becomes closer to the
experimental category (no passengers for hire, etc.) and can never
return to normal certified status?

[Denny]

There are many experienced and informed people on this list... But I do
see plaintive pleadings from some with lessor amounts of information at
their disposal... For those who don't understand why we (USA) can't
market a 'cheap' LSA, follow me through... Your lack of business
experience shows... The cost of labor is miniscule compared to the
regulatory costs...

So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your
spare time at your real job...
OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory
building... BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month,
even while you are still trying to put the business together...

Now the building lessor will insist that you carry loss insurance in
case you destroy his building, and he will insist on public liability
insurance in case what you do in the building gets him sued.. So poof,
you got two monthly insurance payments and you haven't even unrolled
the drawings for your airplane...

Now ya gotta buy some equipment - MIG, saws, brakes, compressor, air
tools, steel, aluminum, and mucho more... Do you have the dough? If
not, ya gotta get a loan... Want a loan? The bank manager informs you
that he needs to see your business plan... Don't have one? Go to the
library and do some research... Finally, after 6 to 12 months of
scrambling you have a business plan that convinces the bank to take a
chance on you, but only for 25% of what you wanted...

OK, now ya got this far, you need to hire some employees... So ya shop
around the neighbors, local bar, the coffee shop, etc... What you will
find is that for all the folks leaning on their elbows and complaining
they can't get a job, 98% will disappear when actually offered a job...
2/3 of those left will fail the drug test...
Drug test???
Yup, your insurer for 'Workmans Comp' will insist on it...
Oh yeah, did I mention that you will need Workmans Comp insurance...
Another monthly payment, badda boom, badda bing... Having fun yet?

Anyway, you have persevered up to this point, it's Monday morning, the
help shows up (well half of them do) and you are ready to start
building airplanes... mebbe... Do you have enough materials on hand?
(heh, heh, the aluminum isn't in yet - you make a mental note to call
the distributor and find out when it will be in) Do your people know
what to do?... So you set about teaching - tough to be in 3 places at
once, eh!... The first thing one says is, "hey boss, when do we get
paid?"...

Ah yes, pay roll!!! So off to the bank you go to set up a business
checking account... The pretty little teller (the one with the great
bazooms) says, "fine Mr. Smith, now I just need your federal employer
number and a copy of your DBA certificate... Federal employer number,
DBA??????

Yup, and along with that you likely get to meet some very nice people
from the:
EPA
DNR
OSHA
FAA
State
County
Township

You will find that you need appropriate signage, handicap parking
stripes, ramps along side of stairs, curbs and steps marked with safety
yellow paint, non slip treads, OSHA approved cabinets for storing
flammables, eye wash stations, whole body showers, and a great long
list of other stuff...

I could go on in great detail for tens of thousands of words, but I
won't <applause>... Anyway, the point of this for those who have never
actually started a business, is that there is a whole bunch you don't
know about our FREE country...

denny

[Lou]

Denny,
Your assuming quite a few things here, like, the person starting
this has never owned or operated a business before, never built a
plane, or is in Jacksonville FL. Lets look at the same thing from
another angle.
A person builds a plane, He likes the results but decides to design
and build his own that would qualify for the LSA. He sets up his
garage, basement, shed with tools he already owns. Then proceeds to
make the necessary jigs and tables, just as before but for his new
design. He goes ahead and builds the new design, fly's it, test it, all
the while he is making note after note on changes and efficiencies. By
now he has a great idea on cost for just one plane and he has spent
well under $70.000. Now we all know that any profit and overhead on
top of this will just raise the price to the average of what is offered
now.
Remember, the jigs are made and paid for, the changes will make it
more efficient, and purchasing products in bulk will help make them
less expensive. Now you write your business plan. An equity loan will
help with the money, Renting a factory could be as simple as renting a
hanger, you certainly wouldn't be dumb enough to start in the business
district of downtown. Employee's, why would you need more than one?
Roll up your sleeves and do the work yourself, better yet, get a
partner who would like to start in on this. As for the DNR, OSHA, and
the rest of Gilligans Island, unless your dumb enough to name your
business something like, "Come and Audit Me Inc." your not going to
hear from these guys. I realize that I'v never owned an airplance
factory, but I also beleive that companies like Van's didn't start out
in a factory either. To give up before trying is definite defeat.
Lou

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Denny" wrote)
(snippy snippy)
> So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your spare
> time at your real job...
> OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory building...
> BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month, even while you
> are still trying to put the business together...


"Hello, China?"


Montbwack

[Jim Carriere]

Lou wrote:
> Denny,
<snip snip...>

Both of you make very convincing arguments! Hopefully reality is
somewhere in between.

I subscribe to the school of thought that while "good" help is hard to
find, it's hard to put a price on great help.

[[email protected]]

Paul Tomblin wrote:
> In a previous article, "Lou" > said:

....
> >Honda was smart enough to see that an airplane engine alone
> >was bringing in more money than some of thier cars.
>
> Except they're only looking at jets. People looking for cheap aircraft
> aren't looking at jets. Several other car makers have tried aircraft
> engine development, and decided it wasn't a money maker. And Continental
> and Lycoming will just want to produce smaller versions of their existing
> old-technology engines.

Where are the Zenoah (Xenoah) engines made?

--

FF

[wesleymarceaux]

OK<OK guys..I meant to build a plane at home.. The only one I really respect
in the kit market is the sonex,,The owner gladly shows one that you can
purchase all the material for the plane at ,,say , wicks aircraft for about
3k.. and that includes the brakes and all except engine. The kit cost much
more, but not ridiculously more. Why is it so much more for say, the CT ,
when it's made of plastic.The molds are made and with good help (someone
vested in the company) you can turn one out in a day.(kit that is). Who
decides the price of these planes and why are they so High?? Where is MR.
Fords idea in these prices?? any way ,,I'm crying in my beer because I can't
afford one. I'm the trashman,,worked for the trash company a long time.
"Montblack" > wrote in message
...
> ("Denny" wrote)
> (snippy snippy)
>> So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your
>> spare time at your real job...
>> OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory building...
>> BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month, even while
>> you are still trying to put the business together...
>
>
> "Hello, China?"
>
>
> Montbwack

[Jim Logajan]

"Denny" > wrote:
[ Usual horror story with usual plot holes elided for brevity. ]

I've incorporated a business in two different states, and while the
regulations and laws are moderately complex, even a neophyte like myself
has done it and lived. Shucks, I've even completed and filed all the
corporate tax forms, done payroll, and kept the books. And I still have
time to do software development. (The thing that really eats into my free
time is reading and posting to Usenet! ;-))

And even if there were no regulations, your airplane designer entrepreneur
seems to have no idea what a business plan is. While a business plan isn't
required, any entrepreneur who intends to succeed should have at least
pondered the answers to the questions a typical business plan addresses:
who you are marketing your plane to, the size of the market, projected
costs, projected revenues, etc. Even though many entrepreneurs are funded
by family and friends (few are bank funded and even fewer VC funded) they
will still want answered the same questions a bank or VC fund would want
answered.

A business plan is to starting a business what a flight plan and pre-flight
is to an airplane flight. (Okay, it's not a great analogy....)

[Bob Kuykendall]

> Why is it so much more for say, the CT ,
> when it's made of plastic...

Plastic (in this case, composites) is relatively expensive stuff. Most
of it is based on petrochems, so it's going to rise in cost with the
price of oil. And if there's any carbon to it, watch out! Right now the
Airbus A380 and Boeing 787 projects are competing for all the available
carbon, so supplies for bit players like kit aircraft makers are
getting quite pricey.

> The molds are made...

Yeah, and if my experience is any guide, they cost somewhere between
$20000 and $100000 for the set. That money didn't come from thin air,
and you have to account for its amortization in each unit. Furthermore,
most aircraft composite molds degrade with use, and you'll only get 50
to 80 pulls before they need expensive attention. So if the molds cost
$20000 and you get 80 pulls from them, the per-pull cost will be
something like $250.

> and with good help (someone vested in the company)
> you can turn one out in a day.(kit that is).

Again, if my experience is any guide, that's a gross underestimate. We
found that the setup, prep, layup, bagging and debagging of a fuselage
half takes three people a full day. That's for a fuselage with about 85
square feet of wetted area. After the two shells are laid up, it takes
another full day to install the internals (stuff you can't get to once
the shells are joined) and join the shells. I figure that with
experience, more floor space, and some tooling optimization we can
crank out a 15m glider kit in about 18 person-days. So with three
people and working saturday we can maybe get one out in a week.

> Who decides the price of these planes and why are they so High??

The market sets the price; LSAs, like anything, are priced at what the
market will bear.

> Where is MR. Fords idea in these prices??

Which idea? Do you mean the one about paying a living wage so his
workers could afford his product?

Anyhow, the Ford production line (he didn't invent it; he didn't even
design the Model T production line himself) is predicated on the idea
of out-producing the competition with a product that every family, and
perhaps every adult, in the country might buy. We're talking about
hundreds of thousands, sometimes million of units a year.

In contrast, aircraft production deals with a product that might be of
interest to one person in five hundred; of that segment only a handful
might actually buy an aircraft. Commensurately, aircraft production
tends to be on the order of dozens or hundreds of units per year, the
very most successful might build thousands. Heck, even for the Cessna
150, the very best year was a few over 3000 units. At those production
rates, there is no way to achieve the economies of scale that they get
with cars.

Thanks, and best regards to all

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
http://www.hpaircraft.com/glidair

[Bob Kuykendall]

I forgot to address this earlier:

Earlier, wesleymarceaux wrote:

> The only one I really respect
> in the kit market is the sonex,,The owner gladly shows one that you can
> purchase all the material for the plane at ,,say , wicks aircraft for about
> 3k.. and that includes the brakes and all except engine. The kit cost much
> more, but not ridiculously more...

I've found that even for very simple homebuilts, there can be a huge
huge difference in buildability between kit parts and raw materials.

For one thing, with a complete kit, it's all there. You don't have to
hunt for it, you don't have to figure out how to get it shipped, you
don't have to haggle or shop around, it's all there. It is often an
eye-opening experience when you total up all the time it takes to find
the right stuff, and the money it takes to cover packaging and
shipping.

For another thing, there's often a lot of pretty subtle time-savers
that go into a kit. Take, as an example, the old Schreder kit
sailplanes. All of the welding would be done. All the flat parts have
their outlines scribed onto stock; just bandsaw on the scribe and drill
on the punch. All the bent parts are already braked. All the formed
ribs and bulkheads are flanged and ready to go. Unlike the RVs, the
rivet holes aren't pre-punched, but there are only two rivet pitches to
the whole thing, and you get rivet spacing guides for both pitches.

That may not sound like a lot, but it adds up to a lot of time saved
and trouble avoided. Building from scratch can certainly be more
satisfying, especially for scroungers and salvage hounds like me, but
it often takes twice as long as if you'd bought the kit.

Thanks again, and best regards

Bob K.
http://www.hpaircraft.com/hp-24
http://www.hpaircraft.com/glidair

[ET]

"Morgans" > wrote in
:

>
> "Ron Wanttaja" > wrote in message
> ...
>> On Tue, 1 Aug 2006 14:23:23 -0400, "Morgans"
>> >
> wrote:
>>
>> > > Even better, in a few years, used engines will be available for
>> > > the homebuilt market.
>> >
>> > Nah, they are mostly Rotax. I suspect the Rotax engines will be
>> > pretty
> much
>> > shot when they come out of the "other" airplanes.
>>
>> Hmmmm. Why? The 100LL issue?
>
> Besides the fact that they are junk? <g>
>
> No really, I think I remember hearing that, unlike Lycomings and
> Continentals, if the jugs need to be replaced, or the crank, you don't
> rebuild the core; just get a new one and put it in.

Well, since the whole engine costs about as much as a brand new Lycoseur
crank, it pretty much makes sense dosn't it <grin>.

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[ET]

"wesleymarceaux" > wrote in
news:ca4Ag.1604$W01.1341@dukeread08:

> OK<OK guys..I meant to build a plane at home.. The only one I really
> respect in the kit market is the sonex,,The owner gladly shows one
> that you can purchase all the material for the plane at ,,say , wicks
> aircraft for about 3k.. and that includes the brakes and all except
> engine. The kit cost much more, but not ridiculously more. Why is it
> so much more for say, the CT , when it's made of plastic.The molds are
> made and with good help (someone vested in the company) you can turn
> one out in a day.(kit that is). Who decides the price of these planes
> and why are they so High?? Where is MR. Fords idea in these prices??
> any way ,,I'm crying in my beer because I can't afford one. I'm the
> trashman,,worked for the trash company a long time. "Montblack"
> > wrote in message
> ...

I'm building a Sonex from scratch (including welded parts)& I can tell
you the Materials <less engine> will cost more than $3000. I've done a
lot of scrounging and I'm looking at almost double that.

The Sonex is a great plane & without a doubt the most bang for the buck
scratch or kit, but I didnt want anyone to think they could build the
FWB for 3 grand...

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[ET]

"Lou" > wrote in
oups.com:

> Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
> I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
> made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is
> it really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
> products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft
> should be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything
> needed, materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every
> aircraft in this category is either imported or the parts are imported
> and then assembled here.
> I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
> buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
> just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
> isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
> price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck
> here. I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What
> happened here?
> Just a thought.
> Lou
>

Here's one: www.nexaer.com

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Lou]

You gotta love the computer generated picture in front of real hangers.
I'm still looking for a price.
Lou

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"ET" > wrote in message
...
> "Lou" > wrote in
> oups.com:
>
>> Ok, just spent a week at Oshgosh like quite a few of you and, although
>> I noticed this before it just hasn't changed much. How many LSA's are
>> made in the U.S.A.? I don't mean assembled, I mean, manufactured. Is
>> it really impossible for Americans to design, manufacture, and sell
>> products at a reasonable price and still make a living? Aircraft
>> should be one thing my country could excel at. We have everything
>> needed, materials, knowledge, ability, and desire, but most every
>> aircraft in this category is either imported or the parts are imported
>> and then assembled here.
>> I'm not talking about a product that cost more to make than to just
>> buy a cheap import. Light Sport planes have gone through the roof in
>> just a matter of a couple of years. You can't convince me that there
>> isn't a plane that can be designed and manufactured for a competitve
>> price. It's not that I am against any other country making a buck
>> here. I'm just very dissapointed in Americans not even trying. What
>> happened here?
>> Just a thought.
>> Lou
>>
>
> Here's one: www.nexaer.com
>


Here's another http://www.newplane.com/

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Lou" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> You gotta love the computer generated picture in front of real hangers.
> I'm still looking for a price.
> Lou
>

Yea i noticed that. That dash board (can't really call it a panel) looks
like it would be awful heavy.

[Bob Martin]

Denny wrote:
> There are many experienced and informed people on this list... But I do
> see plaintive pleadings from some with lessor amounts of information at
> their disposal... For those who don't understand why we (USA) can't
> market a 'cheap' LSA, follow me through... Your lack of business
> experience shows... The cost of labor is miniscule compared to the
> regulatory costs...
>
> So you want to manufacture the WHiz Bang 4, that you drew up in your
> spare time at your real job...
> OK, ya gotta have a shop to work in... So go lease a factory
> building... BANG, ya got overhead! And you have to feed it every month,
> even while you are still trying to put the business together...

<snip>

> I could go on in great detail for tens of thousands of words, but I
> won't <applause>... Anyway, the point of this for those who have never
> actually started a business, is that there is a whole bunch you don't
> know about our FREE country...
>
> denny
>

You're assuming any design has to be done by a brand-new company. There
is no reason why an LSA produced by a major company (Cirrus, Cessna,
etc.) should cost well over $100,000. Again, however, the fear of
lawsuits, and the costs associated with certification, will drive prices
up. It also doesn't help that they try to include all these new fancy
avionics--a basic set of mechanical instruments and handheld GPS should
work just fine for a day-VFR-only aircraft.

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Bob Kuykendall" > said:
>Plastic (in this case, composites) is relatively expensive stuff. Most
>of it is based on petrochems, so it's going to rise in cost with the
>price of oil. And if there's any carbon to it, watch out! Right now the
>Airbus A380 and Boeing 787 projects are competing for all the available
>carbon, so supplies for bit players like kit aircraft makers are
>getting quite pricey.

Some people I know who build canoes say that it's hard to get kevlar these
days because the military is buying it all up. Kevlar makes good light
structures for canoes, you'd think it would make good LSAs as well.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
I use shell scripts at ork. Some cow-orkers refuse to touch them, their
excuse is usually "I don't understand perl". Their fear of perl is such
that all things unknown are also perl. -- Andrew Dalgleish

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, Paul Tomblin wrote:

> Some people I know who build canoes say that it's hard to get kevlar these
> days because the military is buying it all up. Kevlar makes good light
> structures for canoes, you'd think it would make good LSAs as well.

Well, it depends. Aramids like Kevlar are strong stuff, but at issue is
the fact that it isn't very stiff. So it adds a lot of toughness to
composites, but isn't all that useful for adding strength or stiffness
to primary structures. Glider manufactuers will tell you that they add
aramid to the cockpit in order to improve crashworthiness, glider
pundits will often joke that the aramid is just there so they'll find
all the parts in the same hole. I add Kevlar to some of my cockpit
parts to make them tougher and less likely to produce pilot-impaling
splinters.

BTW, the same "Military is hogging it all" stories are circulating
regarding ultra high molecular weight polyethelene (UHMWPE) products
like Spectra and Dyneema.

Bob K.

[Bob Kuykendall]

Earlier, ET wrote:

> Here's one: www.nexaer.com

That wing/fuselage junction looks pretty draggy, with the fuselage
sweeping up right where the trailing edge meets the fuselage. I wonder
if they've done any analysis of the airflow in that area.

I'd think that with the frontal area of their 54" wide cabin (that's
what, 10" wider than a Grumman 2-seater?), they'd want to take every
opportunity to keep the overall drag down.

Bob K.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
>
>...>
> Where are the Zenoah (Xenoah) engines made?


In the Zenoah factory. Duh...

:-)

http://www.zenoah.net/index.html

Appears to be in Japan.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Lou]

Yea, I was wondering how long it would take before someone pointed out
the 601.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Lou" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Yea, I was wondering how long it would take before someone pointed out
> the 601.
>

Sorry I was late to the thread. :)