insane IMC

[Napoleon Dynamite]

Hello Folks



I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
Johnson approach on their frequency."
I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.

[Jose[_1_]]

> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
> they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
> haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
> illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
> request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
> Johnson approach on their frequency."

> I think this is insane

If it is as you describe it, then it =is= insane, especially for a
relataively new pilot, let alone new to IMC. Thuderstorms should be
entered only in dreams.

Alas, some parts of the country are either VFR or thunderstorms. Others
are VFR or ice (like the Northeast in winter).

It may be that different times of year will offer some actual IFR time
which is not convective. I'm not all that familiar with the weather out
there.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Kingfish]

Jose wrote:
> > 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> > hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> > flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
> > they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
> > haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
> > illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
> > request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
> > Johnson approach on their frequency."
>
> > I think this is insane
>
> If it is as you describe it, then it =is= insane, especially for a
> relataively new pilot, let alone new to IMC. Thuderstorms should be
> entered only in dreams.
>
> Alas, some parts of the country are either VFR or thunderstorms. Others
> are VFR or ice (like the Northeast in winter).
>
> It may be that different times of year will offer some actual IFR time
> which is not convective. I'm not all that familiar with the weather out
> there.

Gotta agree with Jose here. Summer may offer the most challenging
weather due to thunderstorms. Getting anywhere near convective stuff is
scary even for seasoned pilots. If you can dodge t-storms in the dark
(in a 172, no less) without any kind of wx equipment aboard you're a
better man than me. I never flew any hard IFR until I got in with a
charter company and started flying a Pilatus. Having good equipment
makes a huge difference (radar, Nexrad downlink) when flying through
the nasty stuff. We still get bounced around but we're able to avoid
the worst of it for the most part.

[john smith]

In article m>,
"Kingfish" > wrote:

> Jose wrote:
> > > 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> > > hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> > > flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
> > > they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
> > > haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
> > > illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
> > > request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
> > > Johnson approach on their frequency."
> >
> > > I think this is insane
> >
> > If it is as you describe it, then it =is= insane, especially for a
> > relataively new pilot, let alone new to IMC. Thuderstorms should be
> > entered only in dreams.
> >
> > Alas, some parts of the country are either VFR or thunderstorms. Others
> > are VFR or ice (like the Northeast in winter).
> >
> > It may be that different times of year will offer some actual IFR time
> > which is not convective. I'm not all that familiar with the weather out
> > there.
>
> Gotta agree with Jose here. Summer may offer the most challenging
> weather due to thunderstorms. Getting anywhere near convective stuff is
> scary even for seasoned pilots. If you can dodge t-storms in the dark
> (in a 172, no less) without any kind of wx equipment aboard you're a
> better man than me. I never flew any hard IFR until I got in with a
> charter company and started flying a Pilatus. Having good equipment
> makes a huge difference (radar, Nexrad downlink) when flying through
> the nasty stuff. We still get bounced around but we're able to avoid
> the worst of it for the most part.

The most important lessons I learned from my instrument training was
what weather not to fly in. Without onboard weather depicting equipment,
I will not fly into any area where thunderstorms are in progress nor are
likely to form as the day progresses. Day nor night. During the day, I
will fly in the vicinity of Level 4 and into areas of Level 3
rainshowers. I have worked my experience to that level gradually by
flying locally.
If there is visible lightning along your path, do not go there.
If there is strong convective activity, do not go there.
Use flight service and ATC to get a picture of the activity ahead.
If you start your flight VFR and continue toward areas of IFR
conditions, you will be given sufficient warning that you are
approaching severe weather. You will first notice the formation of few
small cumulus clouds within 2000-3000 feet agl. These will become
progressively more dense (scattered to broken to overcast). You will
also see increasing cloud volume and height. In most cases, you will not
be able to outclimb the vertical development. Again, use ATC and FSS to
deviate around the areas of moderate and severe cells.

[Emily[_1_]]

Napoleon Dynamite wrote:
<snipped scary thunderstorm stuff>

>How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
> could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.

Well, I don't go anywhere near thunderstorms. I just don't have the
balls for that. They scare the hell out of me. Need I go on?

Anyway, I built most of my actual time (close to 100 hours) in the few
months/days that we had non-convective/non-icing IMC up north.
Generally this meant hopping in a plane anytime the surface temp was
above 60 and the ceilings below 1000 feet. We really had to look for
weather like this, and everyone took advantage of it when they could.

So I didn't require a lot of IMC before I felt safe - I just needed to
know that some thunderstorm wasn't go to reach down and get me.

[Jose[_1_]]

> If there is visible lightning along your path, do not go there.

At night lightning is visible for a hundred miles, so don't let it (by
itself) spook you. But do consider all the other information. I once
saw a puffly little cumulous cloud (couldn't have been more than two
thousand feet thick) light up with lightning. I thought this quite odd,
but rather than penetrate I got cleared above it. Then I saw the
thunderstorm a hundred or so miles ahead, well beyond my destination.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_1_]]

Napoleon Dynamite wrote:
> I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
> private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
> overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> flights


Unfortunately it is summertime in the Carolinas with all the weather that
brings. Back when I was flying checks all over NC, I had one run that required
me to sit out at the Greenville, NC airport until around 1700, then scoot over
to Rocky Mount for more load, then over to Fayetteville and finally back to
Charlotte. The lateness of the day pretty much guaranteed you got to tangle
with convective weather along the way. There is a band of weather that forms
almost every afternoon out that way that made life "interesting". Do you ever
get used to flying in and around thunderstorms? Hell, no! I've been through
many cells in my day and I still get queasy at the thought.

Lucky for you summer is only one season out of the year. With the exception of
the occasional icing situations in the winter, IFR flying in the Carolinas is
more likely to involve poor visibility, cloud cover, and/or rain. That's a lot
easier to take.

You want to absolutely enjoy IFR flying? Wait until late summer or early fall
and shoot for a takeoff around 0830 or 0900, taking off from a low ceiling
airport and fly to improving weather. You take off, go IFR at 200-300 feet and
then either cruise in smooth clouds until you shoot an approach to your
destination, or even better, you climb out and get on top, only to enter the
goop again at your destination. Shoot an ILS down to 300-400 feet so you're not
too uptight about missing and life is sweet indeed.

You can get a lot of satisfaction out of a flight like that. It's the world's
finest video game.

BTW, I commend you on getting your instrument rating (soon) so early in your
career. It makes a world of difference if you need to get somewhere on a
schedule. And as far as I'm concerned, there is no VFR flying at night if
you're smart (at least around here).

Want to ease your fears during this early part of your career? Take another
more experienced instrument pilot (not an instructor) along on your cross
countries for a while. Don't take one along for every flight though or you'll
possibly come to fear solo IFR.

BTW: autopilots are excellent for reducing single pilot workload while you pull
out charts, etc. If you have one, use it. I personally only used one during
cruise but I did use it if I had one for that.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Ron Rosenfeld]

On 1 Aug 2006 17:55:55 -0700, "Napoleon Dynamite" >
wrote:

>Hello Folks
>
>
>
> I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
>private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
>overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
>hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
>flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
>they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
>haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
>illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
>request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
>Johnson approach on their frequency."
> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
>IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
>172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
>confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
>could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.

Have you discussed these fears with your instructor? After all, he's been
the PIC for these flights so has the responsibility to keep you "out of the
weeds". He should also be familiar with your local weather variations.

What has he said about clearance from cells? How close did he think you
were to that "towering cumulus"? Was the lightening from within the cloud
or from a cell miles away? I've seen a line of cells, at night, that I
though were fairly close. ATC radar showed them to be 75+ miles away.


Ron (EPM) (N5843Q, Mooney M20E) (CP, ASEL, ASES, IA)

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "ND" == Napoleon Dynamite > writes:
ND> I think this is insane

Sure sounds like it.

ND> but how
ND> can one build actual IMC experience without getting killed?

Come to California, fly in and out of the coastal stratus (Los Angeles
or San Francisco Bay)...

[Jose[_1_]]

> And as far as I'm concerned, there is no VFR flying at night if
> you're smart (at least around here).

Why? And where is "around here"?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Peter Duniho]

"Napoleon Dynamite" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> [...]
> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
> IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
> 172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
> confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
> could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.

Yes, it's insane. As Mortimer says, just be patient and more reasonable IFR
weather will come along. I have even seen fog in the summer in North
Carolina, and certainly by the time September or later comes around, you
should start to see your fair share of stratus (whether low-level fog or
just overcast) in which to fly.

Don't go around flying near thunderstorms, or in IMC when you don't know
*for a fact* that there are no thunderstorms nearby. The apprehension
you're feeling need not be overcome. Listen to it, and stay away from those
thunderstorms.

Now, that said, you will on occasion find yourself flying in bumpy
conditions without a risk of thunderstorms, and that does add to the
workload a bit if you're IMC. But it won't be nearly as stressful as what
you're doing now, and once you've exercised some patience and gotten some
IMC experience in smoother weather, the bumps (without thunderstorms) won't
seem so bad.

Pete

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_1_]]

Jose wrote:
>> And as far as I'm concerned, there is no VFR flying at night if
>> you're smart (at least around here).
>
> Why? And where is "around here"?


North Carolina. I made the mistake of trying to navigate by pilotage at night
once very early in my career. I misidentified a waypoint and ended up out over
the ocean... next stop Bermuda... thinking I was still out over the sparsely
populated fields in coastal Carolina. (I did wonder about how dark it was...
like I said, I was new with probably 60-70 hours total).

Perhaps I misstated myself... I shouldn't have equated IFR with radio
navigation. OTOH, with the crappy visibility right now, it really is IFR at
night. Personally, I always file IFR for night flights. If something goes
wrong I want to already be talking to someone.

As an aside, ALL night flight in the Bahamas is conducted under IFR. That's
some dark flying, especially in a single. Nothing but your wits, your engine
and your sphincter to keep you out of the water. <G>




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Napoleon Dynamite" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Hello Folks
>
>
>
> I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
> private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
> overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
> they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
> haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
> illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
> request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
> Johnson approach on their frequency."
> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
> IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
> 172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
> confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
> could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciate

It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
and 496 with XM downlink is made for.

Get rid of the fear of running into a TV tower. Get rid of the fear of
running into a mountain. Get rid of the fear of not knowing where the worst
of the thunderstorms are at.

Getting your IFR so soon sounds like you want to be able to go somewhere,
without worrying about the weather. A downlink with all of the information
you need would be a very good investment over the long run. You will use it
often, and miss the utility of not having it.
--
Jim in NC

[Doug[_1_]]

Small GA aircraft with no weather radar and no deice and no turbo are
marginal for flying in IMC. Trouble with IMC, not only can't you see
(manageable), there is all this BAD WEATHER. Just because you have an
IFR rating and an IFR airplane doesn't mean you can fly in THAT
weather. There are plenty of IFR conditions that are not safely flyable
by small GA aircraft.

[Maule Driver]

Morgans wrote:
> "Napoleon Dynamite" > wrote in message

>> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
>>hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
>>flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
>>they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
>>haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
>>illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
>>request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
>>Johnson approach on their frequency."
>> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
>>IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
>>172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
>>confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
>>could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciate
>
>
> It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
> and 496 with XM downlink is made for.
>
I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7 years.
The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US
> Get rid of the fear of running into a TV tower. Get rid of the fear of
> running into a mountain. Get rid of the fear of not knowing where the worst
> of the thunderstorms are at.
Perhaps a bit overstated - fear is good, don't get rid of it - turn it
into respect but don't depend on the the 396. Just use it. (I'm not
disagreeing ith Morgans - just restating it)
>
> Getting your IFR so soon sounds like you want to be able to go somewhere,
> without worrying about the weather. A downlink with all of the information
> you need would be a very good investment over the long run. You will use it
> often, and miss the utility of not having it.
The more you go, the more you will worry, but that's the game. The more
information you have the better. The 396 is a game changer.

Flying at night in convective conditions is not fun, usually. One of my
most satisfying flights was from Norfolk to Charlotte circumnavigating a
stationary line of T-storms streching from south of Norfold to North of
Chalotte. I filed and flew but never went IMC. I used Cheap*******
(predecessor to the 396) to eyeball the line ahead and used lightening
to light up the clouds. Always had airport beacons in sight. When I
penetrated through a broken spot in the line over Greensboro, the
controllers and other late night fliers wondered what the hell was I
doing there - it was before any 'lil Maule would have downlinked weather
except for Cheap******* and I"m not sure a Strikefinder would have done
it for me that night. With the radar downlink, the flight was never in
doubt but a lot of fun - and worth it.

Anyway, we have some great practice conditions around here on mornings
that start with obscured ceilings and lift thru 200, 500 then 1000 feet
before burning off into dotted Cu. Nothing like practicing in improving
conditions! They are morning conditions - not uncommon in summer but
more frequent in Spring and Fall. A great way to practice actual - but
they are morning conditions.

The most challenging (dangerous) actual conditions I've found here
(other than T-storms which you simply shouldn't be in) are hazy evenings
with the dewpoint and actual temp closing in on each other. ATIS will
say 500' and 2 miles and you will end up with obscured and .5 miles.
And it can stay that way for several hours. You really need range
enough to get where those conditions aren't. And we all need to get
home in the evenings - that's when the ticket pays off.

The 396 is worth its weight in gold if you are using your ticket in
actual to actually get somewhere. Night with T-storms is not
recommended but the fact is, it's doable with reasonable safety at
times. But you can't be entirely dependent on ATC to do it, even in the
daytime. Seeing convective clouds is required. Calibrating your
eyeballs with the 396 and looking 'within' and behind the clouds seems
like quantum leap in light a/c flight.

[GS]

> ND> but how
> ND> can one build actual IMC experience without getting killed?
> Come to California, fly in and out of the coastal stratus (Los Angeles
> or San Francisco Bay)...

definitely. I'm out of SQL. I got about 10 hours of IMC during my
training. I'm reasonably comfortable in IMC and it doesn't scare me. I
stay very well clear of thunderstorms. Fortunately there aren't too
many out here.

My past 2 'encounters' with IMC were with thin stratus that lasted about
30 seconds each. The IFR was definitely required though but I feel
gyped that it lasted so little. :) Nonetheless, it is amazing when you
pop through the clouds and that runway is in thee perfect position. :)

Gerald

[Jose[_1_]]

>> It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the Garmin 396
>> and 496 with XM downlink is made for.
> I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7 years. The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US

I take strong issue with that. The =conditions= are what the weather
downlink are great for. However, a pilot that has little VFR
experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND FOREMOST.
That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the wisdom,
especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument ratings
too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for electronics to
replace judgement. While electronics are a great aid to avoiding
weather, it would appear that this "ideal pilot for the 496 downlink"
would be looking for weather.

(*) I know the OP is not this kind of pilot.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[ET]

Jose > wrote in
t:

>>> It sounds like (to me) that you are the kind of pilot that the
>>> Garmin 396 and 496 with XM downlink is made for.
>> I agree. I learned and flew IFR in the RDU area for the past 7
>> years. The 396 is a real game changer for light a/c in the SE US
>
> I take strong issue with that. The =conditions= are what the weather
> downlink are great for. However, a pilot that has little VFR
> experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
> gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
> because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND
> FOREMOST.
> That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the
> wisdom,
> especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument
> ratings too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for
> electronics to replace judgement. While electronics are a great aid
> to avoiding weather, it would appear that this "ideal pilot for the
> 496 downlink" would be looking for weather.
>
> (*) I know the OP is not this kind of pilot.
>
> Jose

The 3/496 is the ideal "gadget" to keep a VFR pilot- VFR... After 2
cross countrys with one - 1 1200nm and 1 1600nm (@ ~105knots) I wouldnt
want to do a VFR cross country without one (not sure I'd want to do an
IFR CC without one either, but that's beyond my experience)

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[GS]

>...However, a pilot that has little VFR
> experience, that then becomes an IFR rated pilot and wants(*) more
> gadgets in the cockpit so he can fly "weather" is a dangerous one,
> because (1) he hasn't learned to look out the window FIRST AND FOREMOST.
> That is what lots of VFR experiences does, and I question the wisdom,
> especially now, of allowing people to pursue and get instrument ratings
> too early in their career, and (2) he's looking for electronics to
> replace judgement. ....

How do US airlines only hire pilots with 1500+ hours while in Europe,
airlines train zero time pilots up through heavy jets in one shot.
Granted these newbies will have an experienced pilot in the left seat
but even then, that's a whole lot of airplane in some extremely
challenging conditions.

I generally agree with you. For me, I don't have that much convective
activity in the Bay Area, California. And if there potentially is, I
don't go up.

Gerald

[vincent p. norris]

> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
>IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
>172 with no onboard weather equipment?

I don't want to sound unsympathetic, but I'm ancient enough to
remember when there was NO weather radar. We blundered into
thunderstorms occasionally and once I even flew through a hurricane
because it wasn't where it was "supposed" to be.

No, those were not the "good" old days. I was delighted to get an
airplane with a Stormscope, and now one with a Garmin 396 with wx.

But flying without them is not exaclty a death sentence. You just have
to be even more careful.

vince norris

[Michelle[_1_]]

Napoleon Dynamite wrote:
> Hello Folks
>
>
>
> I live and fly in North Carolina. I am a 150-hour
> private pilot about to take my instrument checkride.I need some help
> overcoming my apprehension regarding IMC.
> 90 percent of my actual IMC has been after work,in the
> hot summer months, in the dark dodging thunderstorm cells on x-country
> flights.The approach controllers can't see the weather, just yesterday
> they told us we were in a thunder cell while were were in VMC, 3 miles,
> haze. Another time, while getting bounced near a towering cumulus
> illuminated by lightning, an approach controller responded to our
> request for cloud top info with a " ah..we're closed, contact Seymour
> Johnson approach on their frequency."
> I think this is insane, but how can one build actual
> IMC experience without getting killed? Am I toying with my life in a
> 172 with no onboard weather equipment? Am I going to get more
> confident? How many hours of actual IMC did YOU require before you
> could relax and think clearly in the soup?Any thoughts appreciated.
>
Fly IMC in the spring and Fall after the freezing level rises and before
if falls too much.
Flying IMC in the summer without on board lightning detection, radar or
downloadable weather is asking for big trouble.
Michelle