Landing Advice...

[Dan[_1_]]

All,

Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.

I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
down fast enough and trying to control the drift.

This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
seem to figure it out.

Do I need to....

A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
breaking.
C. Something else....?

Dan

[Jose[_1_]]

> After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further).

Maybe you've picked up some wind. Surface winds are often different
from winds even slightly aloft. The plane needs to land straight (so
apply LEFT rudder to point the aircraft down the runway). It needs to
land with no drift (so apply RIGHT aileron to counteract the drift).
It's just regular crosswind correction, but you got surprised by
encountering a crosswind on touchdown.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[BTIZ]

are you always drifting left?
is it always the same airplane?
is the gear straight? someone else may have twisted the gear in a landing
and the alignment is off
is the nose wheel canted to one side?

more back pressure will not put more weight on the wheels to stop the
skidding with brake application
aileron into the wind, not aggressive may help, get to aggressive and
depending on the winds/aircraft you could raise one main back off the ground

It would not be the best advice to say.. raise the flaps to get more braking
effect, but that is the placard in the Beech Sport/Sundowner/Sierra series.
Two many people with electric flaps and hydroelectric gear have raised the
gear on rollout and not the flaps. Raising Manual Flaps does help to "unload
the wing" and get more weight (braking action) on the mains. Always, never
touch gear/flap switches until clear of the runway and you can look at what
you touch.

BT

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> All,
>
> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>
> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>
> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> seem to figure it out.
>
> Do I need to....
>
> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> breaking.
> C. Something else....?
>
> Dan
>

[Dan[_1_]]

The drift develops after I touchdown. If I am already drifting left,
left rudder would probably result in running off the runway....

Dan


Jose wrote:
> > After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> > left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> > rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> > acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further).
>
> Maybe you've picked up some wind. Surface winds are often different
> from winds even slightly aloft. The plane needs to land straight (so
> apply LEFT rudder to point the aircraft down the runway). It needs to
> land with no drift (so apply RIGHT aileron to counteract the drift).
> It's just regular crosswind correction, but you got surprised by
> encountering a crosswind on touchdown.
>
> Jose
> --
> The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dan[_1_]]

It doesn't happen that often, but it did last night. I am trying to
remember if it is always left, and actually I think it is. It is NOT
the same airplane. Had the problem in an Archer, Arrow, and Comanche.
- probably my technique.

Could I be unintentionally doing something with the rudder on
touchdown?

Dan

BTIZ wrote:
> are you always drifting left?
> is it always the same airplane?
> is the gear straight? someone else may have twisted the gear in a landing
> and the alignment is off
> is the nose wheel canted to one side?
>
> more back pressure will not put more weight on the wheels to stop the
> skidding with brake application
> aileron into the wind, not aggressive may help, get to aggressive and
> depending on the winds/aircraft you could raise one main back off the ground
>
> It would not be the best advice to say.. raise the flaps to get more braking
> effect, but that is the placard in the Beech Sport/Sundowner/Sierra series.
> Two many people with electric flaps and hydroelectric gear have raised the
> gear on rollout and not the flaps. Raising Manual Flaps does help to "unload
> the wing" and get more weight (braking action) on the mains. Always, never
> touch gear/flap switches until clear of the runway and you can look at what
> you touch.
>
> BT
>
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > All,
> >
> > Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> > am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
> >
> > I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> > glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> > off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> > left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> > rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> > acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> > brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> > At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> > down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
> >
> > This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> > wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> > seem to figure it out.
> >
> > Do I need to....
> >
> > A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> > B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> > breaking.
> > C. Something else....?
> >
> > Dan
> >

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>
> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>
> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> seem to figure it out.
>
> Do I need to....
>
> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> breaking.
> C. Something else....?
>
> Dan

If you are drifting left with the nose pointing to the right and the
wheels are firmly on the ground, I'd say your nosewheel is getting
jammed.

[P S]

Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>
> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>
> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> seem to figure it out.
>
> Do I need to....
>
> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> breaking.
> C. Something else....?
>
> Dan

A disclaimer first, that I'm a post solo student [P S == Post Solo]. I
have
had similar (opposite) problems after touching down with the nose
pointing to the
left while the plane drifted to the right. My CFI found two things that
I was
doing uncontiously. one is the non-level movement of the yoke when
applying the
back-pressue while rounding out, and in my case, I was over-correcting
my
earlier tendancy of "pulling the yoke downward" action by raising the
left elbow
too much. Then stepped on the left rudder in reflex to "correct" that
-- resulting in
the nose pointing to the left while the plane drifted to the right.
Your problem could be the opposite of mine, i.e. your left elbow was
pulling down the
left alieron, or, maybe as the nose rose, it yawed to the left by the
same reason it
yawed to the left on takeoff with more power, and you used right rudder
to
correct it, instead of very slight right alieron in the round out. If
the later is true,
the wings were not very level before touching down.

[Dan[_1_]]

I think you may be on to something here. So, what you are saying is
that in a calm wind, I might be unconciously adding left alieron in the
flare, and correcting with right rudder...

I think this acutally happens to me _more_ in calm wind situations.


P S wrote:

>
> A disclaimer first, that I'm a post solo student [P S == Post Solo]. I
> have
> had similar (opposite) problems after touching down with the nose
> pointing to the
> left while the plane drifted to the right. My CFI found two things that
> I was
> doing uncontiously. one is the non-level movement of the yoke when
> applying the
> back-pressue while rounding out, and in my case, I was over-correcting
> my
> earlier tendancy of "pulling the yoke downward" action by raising the
> left elbow
> too much. Then stepped on the left rudder in reflex to "correct" that
> -- resulting in
> the nose pointing to the left while the plane drifted to the right.
> Your problem could be the opposite of mine, i.e. your left elbow was
> pulling down the
> left alieron, or, maybe as the nose rose, it yawed to the left by the
> same reason it
> yawed to the left on takeoff with more power, and you used right rudder
> to
> correct it, instead of very slight right alieron in the round out. If
> the later is true,
> the wings were not very level before touching down.

[P S]

Exactly. Your description of the problem sounded too familiar :-).

Dan wrote:
> I think you may be on to something here. So, what you are saying is
> that in a calm wind, I might be unconciously adding left alieron in the
> flare, and correcting with right rudder...
>
> I think this acutally happens to me _more_ in calm wind situations.
>
>
> P S wrote:
>
> >
> > A disclaimer first, that I'm a post solo student [P S == Post Solo]. I
> > have
> > had similar (opposite) problems after touching down with the nose
> > pointing to the
> > left while the plane drifted to the right. My CFI found two things that
> > I was
> > doing uncontiously. one is the non-level movement of the yoke when
> > applying the
> > back-pressue while rounding out, and in my case, I was over-correcting
> > my
> > earlier tendancy of "pulling the yoke downward" action by raising the
> > left elbow
> > too much. Then stepped on the left rudder in reflex to "correct" that
> > -- resulting in
> > the nose pointing to the left while the plane drifted to the right.
> > Your problem could be the opposite of mine, i.e. your left elbow was
> > pulling down the
> > left alieron, or, maybe as the nose rose, it yawed to the left by the
> > same reason it
> > yawed to the left on takeoff with more power, and you used right rudder
> > to
> > correct it, instead of very slight right alieron in the round out. If
> > the later is true,
> > the wings were not very level before touching down.

[Dan[_1_]]

I am flaring with my left hand (right hand on the throttle), so
probably crank the yoke to the left a bit...

--Dan


P S wrote:
> Exactly. Your description of the problem sounded too familiar :-).
>
> Dan wrote:
> > I think you may be on to something here. So, what you are saying is
> > that in a calm wind, I might be unconciously adding left alieron in the
> > flare, and correcting with right rudder...
> >
> > I think this acutally happens to me _more_ in calm wind situations.
> >
> >
> > P S wrote:
> >
> > >
> > > A disclaimer first, that I'm a post solo student [P S == Post Solo]. I
> > > have
> > > had similar (opposite) problems after touching down with the nose
> > > pointing to the
> > > left while the plane drifted to the right. My CFI found two things that
> > > I was
> > > doing uncontiously. one is the non-level movement of the yoke when
> > > applying the
> > > back-pressue while rounding out, and in my case, I was over-correcting
> > > my
> > > earlier tendancy of "pulling the yoke downward" action by raising the
> > > left elbow
> > > too much. Then stepped on the left rudder in reflex to "correct" that
> > > -- resulting in
> > > the nose pointing to the left while the plane drifted to the right.
> > > Your problem could be the opposite of mine, i.e. your left elbow was
> > > pulling down the
> > > left alieron, or, maybe as the nose rose, it yawed to the left by the
> > > same reason it
> > > yawed to the left on takeoff with more power, and you used right rudder
> > > to
> > > correct it, instead of very slight right alieron in the round out. If
> > > the later is true,
> > > the wings were not very level before touching down.

[Jim Macklin]

You fly the airplane until it is tied down. The nose will
weathervane into the wind unless you use the rudder to keep
it pointed straight [or the direction you want] and you will
be blown sideways by the wind unless you use aileron and
brakes to steer the airplane.

After touchdown, it is normal and proper to use full aileron
during the roll out on the runway and if you look in your
aircraft manual or a pilot training manual, you'll see a
taxi control diagram.



--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| All,
|
| Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation
when landing. I
| am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
|
| I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the
(VASI)
| glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon
and holding
| off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane
drifting to the
| left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying
further right
| rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not
sure if I am
| acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any
further). Applying
| brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results
in skidding.
| At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway,
unable to slow
| down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
|
| This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What
am I doing
| wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens
and I can't
| seem to figure it out.
|
| Do I need to....
|
| A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
| B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the
mains to allow
| breaking.
| C. Something else....?
|
| Dan
|

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> It doesn't happen that often, but it did last night. I am trying to
> remember if it is always left, and actually I think it is. It is NOT
> the same airplane. Had the problem in an Archer, Arrow, and Comanche.
> - probably my technique.
>
> Could I be unintentionally doing something with the rudder on
> touchdown?

My guess is that it is your sight picture that is the problem.

You have ruled out wind. You have ruled out the equipment, since it happens
on different planes.

I think you must really have the nose pointed to the left, because that is
the direction the airplane is really going. That means what you think you
are seeing with the direction of the nose is wrong.

If while sitting in the left seat, and you are rolling straight down the
runway, if you look at the nose and observe where the spinner is, it looks
like it is off to the right. Bingo. There is your problem.

You have to look down the offset parallel line of the cowling. If the
eyeball in your head is18 inches off to the left of the center of the
airplane, you need to be looking at a spot on the cowl that is 18 inches to
the left of the crankshaft, and lining that point up with the end of the
runway. Remember to look far down the runway, of course.

Try it; I think it will help.
--
Jim in NC

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

This may indeed be the problem. Does the yaw to the left decrease in
intensity as your ground speed slows? If so it could very well be an
aileron input error.

Another thing to check is something that I ran into when transitioning to
the right seat in a C182 RG. I was inadvertently removing my left foot from
the rudder to move my leg out of the way of the flap switch on roll out.
The problem was that at the same time I was unknowingly pushing on the right
rudder. Instant veer towards the right. All it took to discover my error
was a quick ride around the pattern with another pilot, we spotted it
together almost instantly.

Fly with a CFI or another pilot in the right seat. Eliminate the aircraft
as being the problem.

And be sure that you are not transferring automobile driving muscle memory
to your flying by lifting your right foot off the "accelerator" and pushing
down on the "brake".

Jim

[Robet Coffey]

I have had a left drift during flare where it appeared there was a
crosswind when there was none. It happened most often when I was solo. I
finally attributed it to more wing load (drag)on the left side since I
was the only passenger. I am flying a cherokee six with tip tanks and
if landing imbalanced, alieron correction is a must to correct for
drift. It always seemed to sneak up on me in very calm conditions when I
was complacent.
Dan wrote:
> All,
>
> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>
> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>
> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> seem to figure it out.
>
> Do I need to....
>
> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> breaking.
> C. Something else....?
>
> Dan
>

[BTIZ]

>>It would not be the best advice to say.. raise the flaps to get more
>>braking
>>effect, but that is the placard in the Beech Sport/Sundowner/Sierra
>>series.
>
> In my '76 Sundowner, it cost me a set of tires before I realized that
> flap retraction is pretty much mandatory for any decent braking. My
> plane was missing the "Raise flaps..." placard. It's super easy to
> lock / drag a wheel with the flaps down.
>

How did it pass the annual every year if a placard was missing?

oops..
B

[Peter Duniho]

"Dan" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am flaring with my left hand (right hand on the throttle), so
> probably crank the yoke to the left a bit...

For what it's worth, if you get into the habit of, when over the runway,
always correcting drift with aileron, and correcting heading with rudder,
the problem you're experiencing will go away naturally (and I think it's
likely that "P S" has correctly identified the issue). Even if you do
accidently pull the yoke a bit left while flaring, as soon as the airplane
starts to drift your natural reaction will (should) be to compensate with
some right aileron, which will negate the accidental left aileron you put in
in the first place.

Obviously there are times when heading is the appropriate correction for
drift, but by the time you are ready to touch down on the runway, you *must*
have the nose of the airplane aligned with the runway. The rudder is used
for that. Likewise, you *must* compensate for any drift, so that the
airplane is tracking straight down the runway. The aileron is used for
that.

You may recognize these control inputs as being the same for one method of
dealing with crosswinds. :) Of course, even in the "crab and kick-out"
method, you do at the very end, just before touching down, use the controls
in just this way. So it's perfectly reasonable to just always get in the
habit of controlling the airplane just before touchdown in this way.

In addition (not that this seems to be the issue you're dealing with), while
one should be careful to not overcontrol the airplane, and while in cruise
flight it often makes sense to let light turbulence just have its way with
the airplane (many gusts are corrected by another gust that comes along
right after...chasing the gusts with the flight controls is inefficient and
tiring :) ), during landing is no time to let the airplane get away from
you. If you get pushed one direction, be sure to get the plane controlled
back the other direction ASAP, all the while keeping the nose aligned with
the rudder.

Pete

[Dave Doe]

In article om>,
says...
> All,
>
> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>
> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>
> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
> seem to figure it out.
>
> Do I need to....
>
> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
> breaking.
> C. Something else....?

What you need to do is practice some crosswind landings.

--
Duncan

[[email protected]]

On Sat, 5 Aug 2006 18:24:42 +1200, Dave Doe > wrote:

>In article om>,
says...
>> All,
>>
>> Occasionally, I find myself in the following situation when landing. I
>> am trying to figure out what I am doing wrong.
>>
>> I fly over the numbers at the proper airspeed, and on the (VASI)
>> glideslope. I flare by putting the cowling to the horizon and holding
>> off unitl touchdown. After touchdown, I find the plane drifting to the
>> left, while the nose is pointing to the right. Applying further right
>> rudder seems to result in a squirrley/sliding feeling (not sure if I am
>> acutally sliding though, just afraid to push it any further). Applying
>> brakes at anything more than very slight pressure results in skidding.
>> At this point, I find myself rolling down the runway, unable to slow
>> down fast enough and trying to control the drift.
>>
>> This could happen in little to no wind conditions. What am I doing
>> wrong? I'm not a beginner, but occasionally this happens and I can't
>> seem to figure it out.
>>
>> Do I need to....
>>
>> A. Crank in aggressive alieron to the right.
>> B. Apply lots of back-pressure to get more weight on the mains to allow
>> breaking.
>> C. Something else....?
>
>What you need to do is practice some crosswind landings.

Apart from gusty conditions, which needs more attention, I fly the
aircraft crabbed until about 100 to 200ft above the runway. Then I
gently straighten the aircraft with rudder and align it with the
runway at the same time stopping drift with opposite aileron. The
aircraft is now set up to land on one wheel and most times little
correction is required after that. However, as you near & touch the
runway and the aircraft slows down, you will need more aileron to
correct any drift.

This is the opposite you would do for take-off where you put in full
aileron into wind as you start the take-off roll then as you increase
speed slowly reduce aileron input.

[Jim Macklin]

The placard can and should be replaced. You can buy it from
Beech or have one made.



"B A R R Y" > wrote in
message ...
| On Fri, 4 Aug 2006 16:22:54 -0700, "BTIZ"
>
| wrote:
|
| >>>It would not be the best advice to say.. raise the
flaps to get more
| >>>braking
| >>>effect, but that is the placard in the Beech
Sport/Sundowner/Sierra
| >>>series.
| >>
| >> In my '76 Sundowner, it cost me a set of tires before I
realized that
| >> flap retraction is pretty much mandatory for any decent
braking. My
| >> plane was missing the "Raise flaps..." placard. It's
super easy to
| >> lock / drag a wheel with the flaps down.
| >>
| >
| >How did it pass the annual every year if a placard was
missing?
| >
| >oops..
| >B
|
|
| Excellent point. The device that is in the panel where
the placard
| was has been there ~ 15 years. I've owned the plane for 2
years.
|
| The placard is STILL missing. <G>

[Jose[_1_]]

> The placard can and should be replaced. You can buy it from
> Beech or have one made.

Can you make it yourself, or does it have to be an "official" placard
installed by an A&P?

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Macklin]

Make it yourself is OK, just make it to say exactly what is
in the POH or on the Type Certificate Data Sheet. The size
should be correct. You can make a computer scan of the POH
and have it engraved by a shop that does signs. It should
be non-toxic and fire resistant.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
|> The placard can and should be replaced. You can buy it
from
| > Beech or have one made.
|
| Can you make it yourself, or does it have to be an
"official" placard
| installed by an A&P?
|
| Jose
| --
| The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the
music.
| for Email, make the obvious change in the address.