Get Rid of Jim Weir at Oshkosh

[Bret Ludwig]

>>From: RST Engineering - view profile
Date: Sun, Jul 30 2006 10:37 pm
Email: "RST Engineering" >
Groups: rec.aviation.homebuilt, rec.aviation.piloting
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I'm prejudiced. Of course I'm prejudiced. In 5000+ flight hours, I've
never come as close to a midair as I did at Oshkosh 1999. Oshkosh
Tower:
"BlueOnBlue Cessna, number three for runway 27. Ercoupe put it on the
numbers. Flight of three T6s, cross over runway 27, right downwind for
runway 27, caution the Cessna at the gravel pit."

(Warbird flight leader) "OK fellers, let's show them what a warbird
arrival
is like."

The Cessna is looking, looking, and turns downwind. The copilot
screams,
"Oh, my God " and the pilot turns hard left, only to see two wings
perhaps
fifty feet below. Tower tells warbirds that they nearly had a midair
with a
Cessna. Warbird flight leader, "Then tell tell the little b@$+@rd to
get
out of our way."

<< Of course he has no tape of this. I guarantee someone would if it
happened.>>

I've about had it with the arrogant warbird *******s. The only reason
that
there are warbirds at Oshkosh is that Pope Paul flew a warbird and
wanted to
invite his cronies.

Pope Paul is out to pasture. Nobody else at Oshkosh gets gas money
except
the warbirds. Guess where the gas money is coming from? Your inflated
entry ticket prices. You are paying for those stupid idiots to
aggrandize
World War II, which damned few of us can relate to.

So this afternoon, one of the WWII warbird people who has more money
than
good sense, and who never learned how to clear the taxiway in front of
his
aircraft, killed one of our own. There has to be some sort of payback
for
this sort of stupidity.

Warbirds, you are not welcome at Oshkosh.<<



No it's you, Jim Weir, and your failed repeatedly halfass electronics
company selling halfass crap like Heil and MFJ do to the hams, to
aviation, which is not welcome.

Warbirds ARE aviation, you dork. Homebuilding is yuppies having RVs
and Falcos built with expensive paint jobs and piece of **** Lycomings
(wait, that's redundant....) by hired gun A&Ps. Just like fat appliance
operator hams they are not advancing the tech, just taking up space. I
hope the next Administration appoints a FAA Administrator DEDICATED to
kicking Richard van Grunsven's and especially that esculent c*cks*ck*r
Alfred Scott's asses all over town. Lycoming loving homos.


You, Jim Weir, are a goofy halfass. Go hang out with Bob Heil and John
Simonton and Don Lancaster and all the other halfass electronic geeks
and leave the class to warbirders.

You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.

[Kyle Boatright]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
oups.com...
<<snip>>>
>
> You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
> monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.
>

Pitiful rant. Surely you can do better.

On the other hand, probably not...

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
>
> << Of course he has no tape of this. I guarantee someone would if it
> happened.>>

I guess you are to stupid to understand how the tapes system works and
how long the tapes are kept.
>
>
>
>
> No it's you, Jim Weir, and your failed repeatedly halfass electronics
> company selling halfass crap like Heil and MFJ do to the hams, to
> aviation, which is not welcome.
>
> Warbirds ARE aviation, you dork. Homebuilding is yuppies having RVs
> and Falcos built with expensive paint jobs and piece of **** Lycomings
> (wait, that's redundant....) by hired gun A&Ps.


Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
myself included. Thankfully Van has provided a means for many people
that love aviation and airplanes to build and own said aircraft.

Just like fat appliance
> operator hams they are not advancing the tech, just taking up space. I
> hope the next Administration appoints a FAA Administrator DEDICATED to
> kicking Richard van Grunsven's and especially that esculent c*cks*ck*r
> Alfred Scott's asses all over town. Lycoming loving homos.


What a piece of work you are Ludgag.

> You, Jim Weir, are a goofy halfass. Go hang out with Bob Heil and John
> Simonton and Don Lancaster and all the other halfass electronic geeks
> and leave the class to warbirders.
>
> You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
> monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.
>
Old Bret has always had a hair up his butt about Van because Van is
successful with the most popular homebuilt aircraft in the world and
Fu**wig is a ignorant loser.

[Bret Ludwig]

Jerry Springer wrote:

<<snip>>
>
> Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
> 99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
> myself included. Thankfully Van has provided a means for many people
> that love aviation and airplanes to build and own said aircraft.

Bull****, anyone who sinks 50 to 100K in a Van's has too much goddamn
money and knows it. Very few Van's owners do things the most economical
way, usually they spend more than they could buy a Skylane for and have
enough for maintenance.

I suppose all those plans built homebuilts sold before Van's came
along and made you buy the kit were no good as a means for "people that
love aviation and aircraft" to own one, nor all those airplanes built
by the manufacturers. A Cessna 150 was the price of a Corvette for
decades and still should be, if not less.

>
>
> > You, Jim Weir, are a goofy halfass. Go hang out with Bob Heil and John
> > Simonton and Don Lancaster and all the other halfass electronic geeks
> > and leave the class to warbirders.
> >
> > You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
> > monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.
> >
> Old Bret has always had a hair up his butt about Van because Van is
> successful with the most popular homebuilt aircraft in the world and
> Fu**wig is a ignorant loser.

It's popular because of the yuppies.

[Jerry springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Jerry Springer wrote:
>
> <<snip>>
>
>>Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
>>99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
>>myself included. Thankfully Van has provided a means for many people
>>that love aviation and airplanes to build and own said aircraft.
>
>
> Bull****, anyone who sinks 50 to 100K in a Van's has too much goddamn
> money and knows it. Very few Van's owners do things the most economical
> way, usually they spend more than they could buy a Skylane for and have
> enough for maintenance.
>
> I suppose all those plans built homebuilts sold before Van's came
> along and made you buy the kit were no good as a means for "people that
> love aviation and aircraft" to own one, nor all those airplanes built
> by the manufacturers. A Cessna 150 was the price of a Corvette for
> decades and still should be, if not less.
>
>
>>
>>> You, Jim Weir, are a goofy halfass. Go hang out with Bob Heil and John
>>>Simonton and Don Lancaster and all the other halfass electronic geeks
>>>and leave the class to warbirders.
>>>
>>> You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
>>>monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.
>>>
>>
>>Old Bret has always had a hair up his butt about Van because Van is
>>successful with the most popular homebuilt aircraft in the world and
>>Fu**wig is a ignorant loser.
>
>
> It's popular because of the yuppies.
>

As I said you don't have a clue what you are talking about and it showa
once again. YOU DUDWIG = stupid

[abripl[_1_]]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
>....
> ........., anyone who sinks 50 to 100K in a Van's has too much ......
> money and knows it. Very few Van's owners do things the most economical
> way, usually they spend more than they could buy a Skylane for and have
> enough for maintenance.
> ...

Nonsense.... RV's and a lot of other homebuilts have far better
performance and fuel economy for the "50 to 100K". I can afford a
homebuilt because of the fuel economy and maintaining it myself for far
less than a certified. Just finished a 2300 mile round trip to west
coast. It took about 14 leasurly hobbs hours including 8 stops, using
118 gals of Avgas. Try that in a Skylane.

The main losers are the many who start a homebuilt project and never
finish it, having to sell their unfinished work for half price.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Four seater SQ2000 canard http://www.abri.com/sq2000

[Scott[_1_]]

Bull****. That sounds like a pretty broad generalization. I'm only
putting in the six pack of instruments and a handheld radio and GPS in
my RV-4. Hardly $100K.

Scott


Bret Ludwig wrote:


>
>
> Bull****, anyone who sinks 50 to 100K in a Van's has too much goddamn
> money and knows it. Very few Van's owners do things the most economical
> way, usually they spend more than they could buy a Skylane for and have
> enough for maintenance.

[Bret Ludwig]

Jerry springer wrote:

> >>
> >>Old Bret has always had a hair up his butt about Van because Van is
> >>successful with the most popular homebuilt aircraft in the world and
> >>Fu**wig is a ignorant loser.
> >
> >
> > It's popular because of the yuppies.
> >
>
> As I said you don't have a clue what you are talking about and it showa
> once again. YOU DUDWIG = stupid


Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction that
I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so in
print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10 an
hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for his
****ty wages.

[Bret Ludwig]

Jerry Springer wrote:

> Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
> 99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
> myself included.

Where do you get your statistics, you assmunch?

If hired guns all went away Van's would lose half or more their
business overnight and RVG admitted as much a few years ago.

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Bret Ludwig" wrote)
>> Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig. 99% of
>> RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies myself
>> included.

> Where do you get your statistics, you assmunch?
>
> If hired guns all went away Van's would lose half or more their business
> overnight and RVG admitted as much a few years ago.


I'm changing Jerry Springer's reply, a little, to this:
"99% of RV's are built [FOR] average guys..." <g>

I ran into the reality of "hired builders" at OSH this year. Out of (10)
serious inquiries I bumped into, (7) were related to building mills, (2)
were 'I'm going to build it' and (1) was ????? ...goofy.

[We] were/are selling an RV-10 QB kit, with many items already completed +
no shipping charges. Crates were shipped NEW less than a year ago. We think
it's SOLD - you never know.

Team get-in-the-air is coming to pick it up this morning - I hope.

More details when I know more...

I hope it was one of "my" people who bought it! Maybe it's the golf cart
ride folks? :-)


Montblack

[ccwillwerth]

"Just like fat appliance operator hams they are not advancing the tech, just
taking up space." Quite a statement from someone that apparently supports
70 year old technology, and methods that are all but forgotten. And
forgotten for a reason! I love to see the warbirds, I really do, but
everyone I have ever seen was re-built by an A&P blue collar guy that loves
the warbirds too, while the Owner/pilot stands behind him. He learns the
parts, and the technical talk, but has no real or true understanding of the
70 year old technology, much less a technically advanced, incredably far
more efficient design of today. Can you spell E_G_O? Thats all it is, and
if you let it get in the way like the example below, and endanger my life,
you will be looking for some 70 year old tires to replace the ones on your
bucket of bolts by morning. Fly and like what you want, but a war bird does
not make you better than the gyro-copter or ultra-light pilot, or those with
RV's and Falco's. Statements like ""Then tell tell the little b@$+@rd to
get out of our way." will soon have you pushing on a bicycle pump in the
shade of your wing.

Charlie

By the way, I am a homebuilder and I am a Ham, and that alone probably makes
me smarter than you!



"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>>>From: RST Engineering - view profile
> Date: Sun, Jul 30 2006 10:37 pm
> Email: "RST Engineering" >
> Groups: rec.aviation.homebuilt, rec.aviation.piloting
> Not yet rated
> Rating:
> show options
> Reply | Reply to Author | Forward | Print | Individual Message | Show
> original | Report Abuse | Find messages by this author
>
> I'm prejudiced. Of course I'm prejudiced. In 5000+ flight hours, I've
> never come as close to a midair as I did at Oshkosh 1999. Oshkosh
> Tower:
> "BlueOnBlue Cessna, number three for runway 27. Ercoupe put it on the
> numbers. Flight of three T6s, cross over runway 27, right downwind for
> runway 27, caution the Cessna at the gravel pit."
>
> (Warbird flight leader) "OK fellers, let's show them what a warbird
> arrival
> is like."
>
> The Cessna is looking, looking, and turns downwind. The copilot
> screams,
> "Oh, my God " and the pilot turns hard left, only to see two wings
> perhaps
> fifty feet below. Tower tells warbirds that they nearly had a midair
> with a
> Cessna. Warbird flight leader, "Then tell tell the little b@$+@rd to
> get
> out of our way."
>
> << Of course he has no tape of this. I guarantee someone would if it
> happened.>>
>
> I've about had it with the arrogant warbird *******s. The only reason
> that
> there are warbirds at Oshkosh is that Pope Paul flew a warbird and
> wanted to
> invite his cronies.
>
> Pope Paul is out to pasture. Nobody else at Oshkosh gets gas money
> except
> the warbirds. Guess where the gas money is coming from? Your inflated
> entry ticket prices. You are paying for those stupid idiots to
> aggrandize
> World War II, which damned few of us can relate to.
>
> So this afternoon, one of the WWII warbird people who has more money
> than
> good sense, and who never learned how to clear the taxiway in front of
> his
> aircraft, killed one of our own. There has to be some sort of payback
> for
> this sort of stupidity.
>
> Warbirds, you are not welcome at Oshkosh.<<
>
>
>
> No it's you, Jim Weir, and your failed repeatedly halfass electronics
> company selling halfass crap like Heil and MFJ do to the hams, to
> aviation, which is not welcome.
>
> Warbirds ARE aviation, you dork. Homebuilding is yuppies having RVs
> and Falcos built with expensive paint jobs and piece of **** Lycomings
> (wait, that's redundant....) by hired gun A&Ps. Just like fat appliance
> operator hams they are not advancing the tech, just taking up space. I
> hope the next Administration appoints a FAA Administrator DEDICATED to
> kicking Richard van Grunsven's and especially that esculent c*cks*ck*r
> Alfred Scott's asses all over town. Lycoming loving homos.
>
>
> You, Jim Weir, are a goofy halfass. Go hang out with Bob Heil and John
> Simonton and Don Lancaster and all the other halfass electronic geeks
> and leave the class to warbirders.
>
> You low rent halfass. And you have the ass to c**tmouth IFR service
> monitors....use a Ramsey, assmunch.
>

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Jerry Springer wrote:
>
>
>>Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
>>99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
>>myself included.
>
>
> Where do you get your statistics, you assmunch?


Well stupidwig, I am a neighbor of Van's

> If hired guns all went away Van's would lose half or more their
> business overnight and RVG admitted as much a few years ago.
>

I will be sure to ask him next time I see him if he made that statement.
I have been flying my RV-6 for 18 years and know a lot of builders and
RV pilots and all this propaganda that you are trying to put out is just
not true.

Why don't you tell us what it is you do and what you are building from
plans and why you have such a bad attitude. What has homebuilt aircraft
industry done to you????

[Bret Ludwig]

Jerry Springer wrote:
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
> > Jerry Springer wrote:
>
>
> I will be sure to ask him next time I see him if he made that statement.
> I have been flying my RV-6 for 18 years and know a lot of builders and
> RV pilots and all this propaganda that you are trying to put out is just
> not true.
>
> Why don't you tell us what it is you do and what you are building from
> plans and why you have such a bad attitude. What has homebuilt aircraft
> industry done to you????

I was a production worker at Cessan Pawnee, four years. Told the truth
to the FAA inspector, it was my ass. Went to Grumman Long Island, two
years, laid off. Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, laid off.

Finally gave up on aircraft in 1994. Homebuilts are a great idea but
they have diverted all the capital from aircraft manufacturing. It's
like the old madam's lament, We can't sell it anymore what with these
college girls giving it away.

For the record I think there is room enough for warbirds and
homebuilts both, and factory airplanes too. But I see sons of whores
like Alfred who are point blank exploiting the Experimental Amateur
Built class to sell what amounts to a factory built airplane without
the expense of actually hiring people. Richard started out as a
homebuilder himself unlike Alfred, but it's gotten to the same thing.

[Jim Carriere]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction that
> I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
> built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
> doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
> helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
> who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
> anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so in
> print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10 an
> hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for his
> ****ty wages.

Gee Bret, you seem to have a good point to make here, but the message is
hidden behind your opening line and profanity. You catch more flies
with honey than with vinegar.

[Montblack[_1_]]

("Jim Carriere" wrote)
>> Your ass sucks buttermilk.

> Gee Bret, you seem to have a good point to make here, but the message is
> hidden behind your opening line and profanity. You catch more flies with
> honey than with vinegar.


I understand that much of the charm with those expressions is their flight
of fancy, their detachment from convention, their whimsical approach to
reality, the absurdness of their suppositions, etc, etc, etc.

Your ass sucks buttermilk? I'm sorry, I don't get it.

http://www.rootsweb.com/~genepool/amerispeak.htm


Mont (obeying the Prime Directive) black

[ET]

> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>> Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction
>> that
>> I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
>> built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
>> doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
>> helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
>> who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
>> anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so
>> in print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10
>> an hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for
>> his ****ty wages.

Hrm Brett, what is your personal hostility to these folks getting there
RV's built with hired help??? Also, this may or may not be the case
with these particular RVs, but to meet the 51% rule, only 51% of the
TASKS have to be completed by an amateur builder. So, you've installed
one rib, you've installed them all. You buck one rivet, you've bucked
them all.

That's how many of the real quick build kits get prior approval by the
FAA, for instance the new Zodiac 601XL kit, the builder comes to class
and builds a full-flying tail section under the supervision of the
Zenith folks. The remainder of the plane is then shipped, essentially
DONE except for just closing the wings, which have already been final
drilled and clecoed.

What is the personal threat to you?? Or are you just one of these guys
who cant stand to see anyone have something nicer than you???


--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jerry Springer]

ET wrote:
>>Bret Ludwig wrote:
>>
>>> Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction
>>> that
>>>I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
>>>built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
>>>doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
>>>helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
>>>who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
>>>anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so
>>>in print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10
>>>an hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for
>>>his ****ty wages.
>
>
> Hrm Brett, what is your personal hostility to these folks getting there
> RV's built with hired help??? Also, this may or may not be the case
> with these particular RVs, but to meet the 51% rule, only 51% of the
> TASKS have to be completed by an amateur builder. So, you've installed
> one rib, you've installed them all. You buck one rivet, you've bucked
> them all.
>
> That's how many of the real quick build kits get prior approval by the
> FAA, for instance the new Zodiac 601XL kit, the builder comes to class
> and builds a full-flying tail section under the supervision of the
> Zenith folks. The remainder of the plane is then shipped, essentially
> DONE except for just closing the wings, which have already been final
> drilled and clecoed.
>
> What is the personal threat to you?? Or are you just one of these guys
> who cant stand to see anyone have something nicer than you???
>
>


I think this message posted earlier by Ludwig explains it all.
And that is he can only get it from the old madam because the
college girls won't give it to him. ;-)




Begin Ludwig qoute ===================================

" I was a production worker at Cessan Pawnee, four years. Told the truth
to the FAA inspector, it was my ass. Went to Grumman Long Island, two
years, laid off. Rockwell Collins, Cedar Rapids, laid off.

Finally gave up on aircraft in 1994. Homebuilts are a great idea but
they have diverted all the capital from aircraft manufacturing. It's
like the old madam's lament, We can't sell it anymore what with these
college girls giving it away."

[BobR]

You have seen 3 RV's that are questionably being built by hired guns
but I have seen close to 30 RV's being constructed over the last few
years and not a single one of them was being built by "hired guns".
They were all being built by the individuals who were the owners. I
have seen a few Lancair's, especially the Lancair IVP but never an RV.





Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Jerry springer wrote:
>
> > >>
> > >>Old Bret has always had a hair up his butt about Van because Van is
> > >>successful with the most popular homebuilt aircraft in the world and
> > >>Fu**wig is a ignorant loser.
> > >
> > >
> > > It's popular because of the yuppies.
> > >
> >
> > As I said you don't have a clue what you are talking about and it showa
> > once again. YOU DUDWIG = stupid
>
>
> Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction that
> I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
> built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
> doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
> helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
> who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
> anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so in
> print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10 an
> hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for his
> ****ty wages.

[Scott[_1_]]

From your other post to this thread, if you've got all that experience
building production planes, why don't you start your own business and
become a "hired gun" and build homebuilts planes for others who don't
really want to build...

Scott



Jim Carriere wrote:
> Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
>> Your ass sucks buttermilk. There are THREE RVs under construction that
>> I know of at the closest airport to my house. All 3 are mainly being
>> built by hired guns. One owner is a car dealer the other two are
>> doctors. The hired guns are working for cash off the books. One is a
>> helo mechanic for the county and the other two are laid off TWA guys
>> who are sheetmetal wizards. The local FBO has a policy he will fire
>> anyone working on airplanes outside of his shop but he can't say so in
>> print. He starts grads of the local A&P mill (a ********) at $10 an
>> hour and won't hire ex airline people even if they would work for his
>> ****ty wages.
>
>
> Gee Bret, you seem to have a good point to make here, but the message is
> hidden behind your opening line and profanity. You catch more flies
> with honey than with vinegar.

[Bret Ludwig]

Scott wrote:
> From your other post to this thread, if you've got all that experience
> building production planes, why don't you start your own business and
> become a "hired gun" and build homebuilts planes for others who don't
> really want to build...


Then I would be running an aircraft factory....albeit a lousy one.

Good aircraft factories build good factory built airplanes, ones
designed for the strengths and such as they are, weaknesses of factory
production, with consistent tooling and the use of people with the
skills earned only in a factory setting. Most homebuilts would be lousy
factory built airplanes and vice versa. That's particularly true of the
Falco, designed to be built in a nation and time of skilled artisans
earning meager pay-most not owning a car-not wealthy rank beginners.

"Driven one rivet, driven them all" is in fact the single goddamned
dumbest thing I have ever heard. And dangerous. You are not an aircraft
worker until you have driven ten or twenty thousand rivets, each
checked by an inspector and the failures flagged (and there will be
some) and you have to stand there hands in pockets watching the other
guy centerpunch, drill out and replace your bad rivet while half the
damn plant is watching you. (Been there done that!) It's better you
drive NO rivets than think you are a riveter with a couple of dozen, or
hundred, under your belt.

I have driven about enough rivets to be dangerous. In a factory
setting I'd be okay after a couple training sessions, but you wouldn't
want me doing and signing off my own work. That's why despite having
the requisite experience I never went for my A&P-I did the written but
not the O&P- I knew some day that damn paper would burn a hole in my
pocket and it would be my ass.

Let RVG get a type certificate, hire experienced aircraft workers and
crank a few thousand out. He'd probably make a lot of money, but it
would interfere with his hobbies, so he won't.

[ET]

"Bret Ludwig" > wrote in news:1155295315.442651.160860
@m73g2000cwd.googlegroups.com:

> "Driven one rivet, driven them all" is in fact the single goddamned
> dumbest thing I have ever heard. And dangerous

I didnt say it was a good idea, all I said is, that is the rule....

--
-- ET >:-)

"A common mistake people make when trying to design something
completely foolproof is to underestimate the ingenuity of complete
fools."---- Douglas Adams

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>>From your other post to this thread, if you've got all that experience
>>building production planes, why don't you start your own business and
>>become a "hired gun" and build homebuilts planes for others who don't
>>really want to build...
>
>

>
> Let RVG get a type certificate, hire experienced aircraft workers and
> crank a few thousand out. He'd probably make a lot of money, but it
> would interfere with his hobbies, so he won't.
>

So to sum it up you hate RVG because he builds a great kit that is more
popular than the factory built planes built at the places you worked at.
This caused financial resources to be siphoned away from the factories
which caused you to lose your job.
Just because you are not talented enough to keep a job or learn how to
set a rivet does not mean the rest of us can't. I can teach anyone to
set rivets in a short time. WEll I take that back I probably could not
teach you to rivet.
Jerry

[Ernest Christley]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>
>>From your other post to this thread, if you've got all that experience
>>building production planes, why don't you start your own business and
>>become a "hired gun" and build homebuilts planes for others who don't
>>really want to build...
>
>
>
> Then I would be running an aircraft factory....albeit a lousy one.
>
> Good aircraft factories build good factory built airplanes, ones
> designed for the strengths and such as they are, weaknesses of factory
> production, with consistent tooling and the use of people with the
> skills earned only in a factory setting. Most homebuilts would be lousy
> factory built airplanes and vice versa. T

From what I've seen, most factory built airplanes are lousy factory
built airplanes. Lots of odd shaped, multiple component parts, that must
be assembled by hand.

>
> "Driven one rivet, driven them all" is in fact the single goddamned
> dumbest thing I have ever heard. And dangerous. You are not an aircraft
> worker until you have driven ten or twenty thousand rivets, each
> checked by an inspector and the failures flagged (and there will be
> some) and you have to stand there hands in pockets watching the other
> guy centerpunch, drill out and replace your bad rivet while half the
> damn plant is watching you. (Been there done that!)

This sounds like childish hazing that you'd find in the factories of the
50's. An airplane properly designed to be built in a modern factory
wouldn't have you setting rivets. It would be done by a machine that
will set the rivet the same way every time, so that quality can be
measured and adjusted. Just cause you set some bad rivets in a factory
and got hazed for it, doesn't mean a typical builder can't set one,
check it, and cuss to high heaven all by his lonesome as he drills it
out and replaces it himself. The results will be the same. The factory
environment changes nothing.



--
This is by far the hardest lesson about freedom. It goes against
instinct, and morality, to just sit back and watch people make
mistakes. We want to help them, which means control them and their
decisions, but in doing so we actually hurt them (and ourselves)."

[Jerry Springer]

Bret Ludwig wrote:

> Jerry Springer wrote:
>
>
>>Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
>>99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
>>myself included.
>
>
> Where do you get your statistics, you assmunch?
>
> If hired guns all went away Van's would lose half or more their
> business overnight and RVG admitted as much a few years ago.
>

Well well Ludwig seem like you have misstated your facts once again.
I had breakfast with Van this morning he is not sure, as expected, how
many are built using hired guns but figured around 25%. You need to
define "hired gun" does that include someone doing the seats, or
painting etc.?

[Roger[_4_]]

On Sat, 12 Aug 2006 19:41:09 GMT, Jerry Springer >
wrote:

>Bret Ludwig wrote:
>
>> Jerry Springer wrote:
>>
>>
>>>Once again you show the world how amazingly stupid you are Butwig.
>>>99% of RV's are built by average guys that are by no means rich Yuppies
>>>myself included.
>>
>>
>> Where do you get your statistics, you assmunch?
>>
>> If hired guns all went away Van's would lose half or more their
>> business overnight and RVG admitted as much a few years ago.
>>
>
>Well well Ludwig seem like you have misstated your facts once again.
>I had breakfast with Van this morning he is not sure, as expected, how
>many are built using hired guns but figured around 25%. You need to

For Vans I seriously doubt it'd be that high. For *some* of the
Lancairs and AirComps it might be. I really don't even have a guess
for the new Glasair models.

>define "hired gun" does that include someone doing the seats, or
>painting etc.?

I think Richard has it pretty well pegged.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Bret Ludwig]

Ernest Christley wrote:
<<snip>>

>
> From what I've seen, most factory built airplanes are lousy factory
> built airplanes. Lots of odd shaped, multiple component parts, that must
> be assembled by hand.

To some extent this is true. But the most successful ones had the most
fixturing and were the most consistent. Consider: a J-3/PA-18 is
probably representative of a tube and rag design one might homebuild, a
little more detailed than most perhaps. Well, Piper openly stated that
labor costs on a Cherokee were maybe a sixth of what they were on a Cub
in terms of the basic airframe. This tells us several things, one
being direct labor on a Cherokee is probably about that of a production
automobile. You could set up in some country somewhere and crank out
Cherokees very cheaply indeed, not counting instruments and engines,
which you could also crank out pretty cheaply in the right places if
you got some volume going. Product liability???? NONE. Do it overseas
and DO NOT purchase liability insurance and you won't get sued. Product
Liability is a crock of **** they brought on themselves as you well
know. Certification? Let's say a million dollars. Build ten thousand
and it's a hundred each, triple that on sale for entrepreneurial
profit. I bet you could sell ten thousand.


>
> >
> > "Driven one rivet, driven them all" is in fact the single goddamned
> > dumbest thing I have ever heard. And dangerous. You are not an aircraft
> > worker until you have driven ten or twenty thousand rivets, each
> > checked by an inspector and the failures flagged (and there will be
> > some) and you have to stand there hands in pockets watching the other
> > guy centerpunch, drill out and replace your bad rivet while half the
> > damn plant is watching you. (Been there done that!)
>
> This sounds like childish hazing that you'd find in the factories of the
> 50's.


The 1950s were the zenith of manufacturing _that worked_ in the US.
Part of the decline has been the blind adoption of Japanese/pnone
company monopoly tactics that work well over there because of
conditions very different from those here and now.

An airplane properly designed to be built in a modern factory
> wouldn't have you setting rivets. It would be done by a machine that
> will set the rivet the same way every time, so that quality can be
> measured and adjusted. Just cause you set some bad rivets in a factory
> and got hazed for it, doesn't mean a typical builder can't set one,
> check it, and cuss to high heaven all by his lonesome as he drills it
> out and replaces it himself. The results will be the same. The factory
> environment changes nothing.

What changes is the experience, age, adaptibility of the workforce as
well as the fact they do it every day and in an environment where you
learn and maintain the skills quickly and efficiently. Most people who
want to fly should not be building their own airplane any more than
most car or boat owners should build their own. Certainly, a few
should. But if even one percent of cars on the road were homebuilt it
would be pretty bizarre, wouldn't it?

[Dan[_2_]]

Bret Ludwig wrote:
> Scott wrote:
>> From your other post to this thread, if you've got all that experience
>> building production planes, why don't you start your own business and
>> become a "hired gun" and build homebuilts planes for others who don't
>> really want to build...
>
>
> Then I would be running an aircraft factory....albeit a lousy one.
>
> Good aircraft factories build good factory built airplanes, ones
> designed for the strengths and such as they are, weaknesses of factory
> production, with consistent tooling and the use of people with the
> skills earned only in a factory setting. Most homebuilts would be lousy
> factory built airplanes and vice versa. That's particularly true of the
> Falco, designed to be built in a nation and time of skilled artisans
> earning meager pay-most not owning a car-not wealthy rank beginners.
>
> "Driven one rivet, driven them all" is in fact the single goddamned
> dumbest thing I have ever heard. And dangerous. You are not an aircraft
> worker until you have driven ten or twenty thousand rivets, each
> checked by an inspector and the failures flagged (and there will be
> some) and you have to stand there hands in pockets watching the other
> guy centerpunch, drill out and replace your bad rivet while half the
> damn plant is watching you. (Been there done that!) It's better you
> drive NO rivets than think you are a riveter with a couple of dozen, or
> hundred, under your belt.
>
> I have driven about enough rivets to be dangerous. In a factory
> setting I'd be okay after a couple training sessions, but you wouldn't
> want me doing and signing off my own work. That's why despite having
> the requisite experience I never went for my A&P-I did the written but
> not the O&P- I knew some day that damn paper would burn a hole in my
> pocket and it would be my ass.
>
> Let RVG get a type certificate, hire experienced aircraft workers and
> crank a few thousand out. He'd probably make a lot of money, but it
> would interfere with his hobbies, so he won't.
>

In Rec.aviation.military you say women can't be pilots as good as
men, do you feel the same way about women building aircraft?

Dan, U.S. Air Force, retired