GA airport in Paris

[Frode Berg[_1_]]

Hi!

I might be flying to Paris with my son next week.
Never landed near Paris to go to town (flown past a few times) so I'm not
really familiar with the airports there.

Which one is the typical GA one?
I need AVGAS, and it would be nice if it's easy to get to downtown Paris.

Thanks for any tips!

Frode Berg

[Cub Driver]

Hardly a GA airport, but Le Bourget (if I spell it correctly) has
grand historical associations, and as I recall it has a museum to
boot.


-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Anno v. Heimburg]

Cub Driver <usenet AT danford DOT net> wrote:
> Hardly a GA airport

Actually, Le Bourget today is business jet and GA only, no airline
operations. It's also rather close. It might be what you're looking for.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Le_Bourget_Airport

[Thomas Borchert]

Anno,

> Le Bourget today is business jet and GA only,
>

Well, there's GA and then there's GA: Landing fee for a Bonanza 125
Euros (three years ago), handling mandatory, 70 Euro, flight planning
30 Euros, VFR only PPR.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Anno v. Heimburg]

> Landing fee for a Bonanza 125 Euros (three years ago), handling mandatory,
> 70 Euro

Okay then, let me try again:

Aérodrome de Cyr l'Ecole, Cyr l'Ecole, close to Versailles.

Any better?

[Larry Dighera]

On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:05:17 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
wrote in >:

>Thanks for any tips!

How are your French language skills? http://www.aeroport.fr/

[Frode Berg[_1_]]

Hehe...

Non-excistent...

Thanks anyway.

I spoke to the airport manager at Le Bourget
No VFR. They are IFR only, and mostly business jets, but he advised me of
some other airports.

LFPN, LFPL, LFPE and LFPT

Will investigate those!

Frode

"Larry Dighera" > skrev i melding
...
> On Mon, 7 Aug 2006 18:05:17 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>Thanks for any tips!
>
> How are your French language skills? http://www.aeroport.fr/

[Owen[_1_]]

Frode Berg wrote:

> Hi!
>
> I might be flying to Paris with my son next week.
> Never landed near Paris to go to town (flown past a few times) so I'm not
> really familiar with the airports there.
>
> Which one is the typical GA one?
> I need AVGAS, and it would be nice if it's easy to get to downtown Paris.
>
> Thanks for any tips!

Le Bourget is a great field and ideally located closer to Paris than
CDG/LFPG, with RER service to boot. Unfortunately they require special
permission (!) for VFR and rarely/if ever give that permission. Even if you
go IFR, fees /handling agent expenses/etc. are very high. A shame, but ADP
caters to airlines and big pocketbooks, not personal GA aviators. Has a
very cool museum though.

Can you land in 700 m easily? Try Lognes-Emerainville (LFPL). It's a
beautiful and friendly little field not to far away from Paris, out toward
Disneyland. Lognes has RER service to Paris and you can walk to the station,
less than about a 2000 m stroll. For Handling fees, you should get change
back your €10 note.

Toussus Le Noble (LFPN) has longer runways but may a bit more expensive and
worse, I don't think the transportation situation is as good there.

Please let us know where you end up going and what you experience. Don't get
to hear much about flying in Europe these days. :(

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 21:25:08 -0400, Owen > wrote in
>:

>Try Lognes-Emerainville (LFPL). It's a
>beautiful and friendly little field not to far away from Paris,

I stopped in one day, and had a chat with the AriFrance club members.
They were very friendly and helpful. They did caution, that the
locals use French on the radio however.

Here are some links with photos:
http://fly.simvol.org/indexus.php?telechargement_fly2/aeroports/pagesus/lognesus.php
http://www.flightsim.com/cgi/kds?$=main/airpho/lfpl.htm
http://66.218.71.231/language/translation/translatedPage.php?tt=url&text=http%3a//lfplplateform.free.fr/&lp=fr_en&.intl=us&fr=fp-top

I wasn't able to find a detailed listing like one might find on
AirNav.com.

[Thomas Borchert]

Larry,

> They did caution, that the
> locals use French on the radio however.
>

They do that all over France...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Frode Berg[_1_]]

Hi and thanks!

700 m no problem. Went in and out of a 450 meter one the other day with
runway to spare, so that should be fine!

:-)

Is there a control tower at LFPL?
If so, they will talk to me in English, right?
If not, are French pilots required to know English, so they will understand
me when I call?

I remember once several years ago I was flying VFR past Paris to the west,
when I didn't get any more comms from Paris information.

I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if anyone
could hear my transmission.

Total silence....then loads of talk in French again.
I tried this several times with no reply, so I ended up squawking 7600 and
continuing to my destination.
When I called ATC they where cool about it, and told me that Paris info had
closed for the day at 1800 LT.

Funny thing that nobody seemed to care about my calls though. Made me think
the French don't know English very well....

Oh well,

Frode


"Owen" > skrev i melding ...
> Frode Berg wrote:
>
>> Hi!
>>
>> I might be flying to Paris with my son next week.
>> Never landed near Paris to go to town (flown past a few times) so I'm not
>> really familiar with the airports there.
>>
>> Which one is the typical GA one?
>> I need AVGAS, and it would be nice if it's easy to get to downtown Paris.
>>
>> Thanks for any tips!
>
> Le Bourget is a great field and ideally located closer to Paris than
> CDG/LFPG, with RER service to boot. Unfortunately they require special
> permission (!) for VFR and rarely/if ever give that permission. Even if
> you
> go IFR, fees /handling agent expenses/etc. are very high. A shame, but
> ADP
> caters to airlines and big pocketbooks, not personal GA aviators. Has a
> very cool museum though.
>
> Can you land in 700 m easily? Try Lognes-Emerainville (LFPL). It's a
> beautiful and friendly little field not to far away from Paris, out toward
> Disneyland. Lognes has RER service to Paris and you can walk to the
> station,
> less than about a 2000 m stroll. For Handling fees, you should get change
> back your ?10 note.
>
> Toussus Le Noble (LFPN) has longer runways but may a bit more expensive
> and
> worse, I don't think the transportation situation is as good there.
>
> Please let us know where you end up going and what you experience. Don't
> get
> to hear much about flying in Europe these days. :(
>

[Cub Driver]

On Tue, 08 Aug 2006 15:00:02 +0200, Thomas Borchert
> wrote:

>> Le Bourget today is business jet and GA only,
>>
>
>Well, there's GA and then there's GA:

Yes, that's the distinction I had in mind! That is, you wouldn't base
your J-3 there, but for a once-in-a-decade visit to Paris, it might be
just the thing.



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Cub Driver]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
wrote:

>I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if anyone
>could hear my transmission.

Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
addressed a local in French, he replied in English.

More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
in French.

It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
understood your transmission than would be the case for a
French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.

It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
French is the superior language for all purposes.

(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
don't know the other guy's language.)



-- all the best, Dan Ford

email: usenet AT danford DOT net

Warbird's Forum: www.warbirdforum.com
Piper Cub Forum: www.pipercubforum.com
In Search of Lost Time: www.readingproust.com

[Thomas Borchert]

Frode,

> If not, are French pilots required to know English, so they will understand
> me when I call?
>

No, not at all. But so close to Paris, it shouldn't be a problem.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Owen[_1_]]

Cub Driver wrote:

> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> wrote:
>
> >I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if anyone
> >could hear my transmission.
>
> Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
> addressed a local in French, he replied in English.
>
> More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
> taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
> in French.
>
> It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
> now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
> understood your transmission than would be the case for a
> French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.
>
> It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
> French is the superior language for all purposes.
>
> (Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
> don't know the other guy's language.)

Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being 'arrogant'
or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel comfortable
speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would be
going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking that
your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even if
they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language and
find that out for yourself.

[Rolf Blom G (AS/EAB)]

On 2006-08-09 12:23, Cub Driver wrote:
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> wrote:
>
>
>>I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if anyone
>>could hear my transmission.
>
>
> Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
> addressed a local in French, he replied in English.
>
> More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
> taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
> in French.
>
> It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
> now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
> understood your transmission than would be the case for a
> French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.
>
> It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
> French is the superior language for all purposes.
>
> (Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
> don't know the other guy's language.)
>
>
>
> -- all the best, Dan Ford
>

I heard a pilot from my club describe a strange event during a trip he
and some friends made to France some years ago, when due to an accident
at their intended destination, they were vectored to a smaller military
field nearby.

The controller at the alternate field never responded to their radio
calls, until the pilot got a passenger who spoke french to make the
contact; once the controller had acknowledged them, the conversation
could continue in english.

/Rolf

[john smith]

In article >, Owen > wrote:

> Cub Driver wrote:
>
> > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> > wrote:
> >
> > >I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
> > >anyone
> > >could hear my transmission.
> >
> > Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
> > addressed a local in French, he replied in English.
> >
> > More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
> > taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
> > in French.
> >
> > It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
> > now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
> > understood your transmission than would be the case for a
> > French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.
> >
> > It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
> > French is the superior language for all purposes.
> >
> > (Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
> > don't know the other guy's language.)
>
> Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
> 'arrogant'
> or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
> Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
> etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
> comfortable
> speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
> accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
> conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
> be
> going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
> that
> your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
> if
> they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
> and
> find that out for yourself.

Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
learn English to get their license?

[Rolf Blom G (AS/EAB)]

On 2006-08-09 15:29, john smith wrote:
> In article >, Owen > wrote:
>
>
>>Cub Driver wrote:
>>
>>
>>>On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
>>>wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
>>>>anyone
>>>>could hear my transmission.
>>>
>>>Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
>>>addressed a local in French, he replied in English.
>>>
>>>More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
>>>taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
>>>in French.
>>>
>>>It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
>>>now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
>>>understood your transmission than would be the case for a
>>>French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.
>>>
>>>It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
>>>French is the superior language for all purposes.
>>>
>>>(Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
>>>don't know the other guy's language.)
>>
>>Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
>>'arrogant'
>>or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
>>Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
>>etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
>>comfortable
>>speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
>>accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
>>conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
>>be
>>going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
>>that
>>your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
>>if
>>they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
>>and
>>find that out for yourself.
>
>
> Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
> learn English to get their license?

In Sweden, english radio proficiency for *pilots* is an option; you can
select swedish only, but you cannot then fly outside sweden without a
copilot having the english radio certificate doing the comms.

I'd think most pilots here have the english radio cert, but it's not
required.

Controllers do have the english radio certificate as a requirement, AFAIK.

/Rolf

[Owen[_1_]]

john smith wrote:

> In article >, Owen > wrote:
>
> > Cub Driver wrote:
> >
> > > On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > > >I heard other pilots in French however, so I tried to call and ask if
> > > >anyone
> > > >could hear my transmission.
> > >
> > > Many years ago, I visited Montreal, and discovered that whenever I
> > > addressed a local in French, he replied in English.
> > >
> > > More recently, again in Montreal, I found that a great change had
> > > taken place. Now, whenever I addressed a local in English, he replied
> > > in French.
> > >
> > > It's not that French-speakers don't know English; it's just that they
> > > now prefer to speak French. I'll bet that more French pilots
> > > understood your transmission than would be the case for a
> > > French-speaking pilot at an airport in the U.S.
> > >
> > > It's only that they'd rather have you crash than break the rule that
> > > French is the superior language for all purposes.
> > >
> > > (Americans are not nearly so arrogant--only ignorant. We genuinely
> > > don't know the other guy's language.)
> >
> > Huh? So if someone prefers to speak in their language they are being
> > 'arrogant'
> > or think their language is the "superior language for all purposes?' Reality
> > Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
> > etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel
> > comfortable
> > speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different
> > accent then they learned, etc. That is even much, much more the case for
> > conversations with a lot of jargon, e.g. pilot talk. Being arrogant would
> > be
> > going to another land where another language is spoken natively and thinking
> > that
> > your own foreign language is so superior that natives should speak it, even
> > if
> > they can't or can't well. Don't take my word for it, learn another language
> > and
> > find that out for yourself.
>
> Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
> learn English to get their license?

Depends what you mean by 'other countries.' Many countries predominantly do not
speak English and naturally English is not required to fly airplanes in many
countries. In the USA, FAA does require US certificated pilots know English, and
pilots from other places should be able to speak the dominant language in USA,
English. English is theoretically spoken by ATC around the world in ICAO compliant
nations.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
wrote in >:

>Made me think the French don't know English very well....

Not near as well as the Dutch.

[Andrey Serbinenko]

> Check/ Tip: Even if someone took some classes back in school and speak second
> etc. languages a bit, that doesn't mean that they necessarily feel comfortable
> speaking it, particularly to a stranger who may talk fast, have a different

I think this is not about arrogance at all. I've been learning
foreign languages all my life, and spent decent amount of time
living in France. My overall impression is that an average 20-40
year old person that has some kind of higher education can communicate
in English on a level that is sufficient for a basic everyday
information exchange. Yes, far from perfect, but sufficient.

The problem I believe is in a typical French perfectionism: people are
so disgusted and embarrassed by their own self-perceived poor performance
that speaking English becomes a dreadful ordeal.

Not willing to do this for you in a shop or in a post office is one thing,
but ignoring you on the air is completely different. In aviation, communication
is vital, and I believe that not willing to go a little bit out of your way
to help the other guy hoping that someone else might do it, or just simply
ignoring the situation as a nuisance, is not acceptable.

This may be a little far-fetched analogy, but imagine hearing some
really really thick Asian or German accent -- barely intelligible -- on
the air here in the States. Would you -- even for a moment -- consider
ignoring the guy simply on the grounds that you'd find it very annoying
trying to figure out what he's saying, and you will probably have to repeat
yourself a few times before he understands your reply?

So, in essence, my point is: responding to communications is not about
courtesy or doing a favor; it's about safety, and the only legitimate
reason for not doing it would be if you can't, i.e. genuinely do not
understand the transmission at all.



Andrey

[john smith]

> > Owen, are you saying that pilots in other countries are not required to
> > learn English to get their license?
>
> Depends what you mean by 'other countries.' Many countries predominantly do
> not
> speak English and naturally English is not required to fly airplanes in many
> countries. In the USA, FAA does require US certificated pilots know English,
> and pilots from other places should be able to speak the dominant language in
> USA, English. English is theoretically spoken by ATC around the world in ICAO
> compliant nations.

Thank you Rolf and Owen.
I learned something today.
I had always (incorrectly) believed that English proficiency was
required by all countries to acquire a pilot's license.

[Frode Berg[_1_]]

There is a proposed rule in ICAO that demands all licensed pilots to be able
to communicate in English up to level 4.

This is supposed to mean that you must be able to conduct a normal
conversation on everyday topics.

I believe this is to be issued any license apart from any local National
PPL.

AOPA have tried to work against this, but as far as I know have not
succeded, so this will come sooner or later.
However, I have heard that the new new regianal European license may be
excempt from this rule, however this is not yet been decided.

Looks like new times for us hobby fliers....no prob for me, as we here in
Norway have very early English education in School, and people generally
speak English well, but I think this will make a big difference in other
countries without the tradition of learning English as a second language.

Frode



"Larry Dighera" > skrev i melding
...
> On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 11:17:31 +0200, "Frode Berg" >
> wrote in >:
>
>>Made me think the French don't know English very well....
>
> Not near as well as the Dutch.

[Stefan]

> LFPN, LFPL, LFPE and LFPT
>
> Will investigate those!

You'll find the VACs here:
http://www.sia.aviation-civile.gouv.fr/html/frameset_aip_uk.htm

BTW, Paris has an excellent public transport system. Transfer from the
airfield to downtown won't be a problem.

Stefan

[Stefan]

Andrey Serbinenko schrieb:

> The problem I believe is in a typical French perfectionism: people are
> so disgusted and embarrassed by their own self-perceived poor performance
> that speaking English becomes a dreadful ordeal.

They rather are disgusted by people walking in and boldly starting to
chatter English and expecting everybody to understand them. It often
helps a lot if you start by modestly asking whether somebody understands
English.

Stefan

[Andrey Serbinenko]

Stefan > wrote:

> They rather are disgusted by people walking in and boldly starting to
> chatter English and expecting everybody to understand them. It often
> helps a lot if you start by modestly asking whether somebody understands
> English.

Right. My comment was made under assumption that all normal requirements for
politeness and civility have been satisfied. So, factoring in what you've
just said, I can rephrase it: even though you're starting out by modestly
asking if somebody understands English, in many cases you'll find that people
are being reluctant admitting their English abilities in an attempt to avoid
having to communicate with you in English and show their bad pronunciation and
grammar mistakes, and if you leave them no other choice, they can be quite
irritated, and much less helpful than you could expect had you spoken their
native language.

Andrey


>
> Stefan

[Stefan]

Andrey Serbinenko schrieb:

> in many cases you'll find that people
> are being reluctant admitting their English abilities in an attempt to avoid
> having to communicate with you in English and show their bad pronunciation and

I don't think this is the reason. My feeling always was that some people
just wanted to be left alone, using the language problem as an excuse,
which they can't if you speak their language, but maybe I was totally wrong.

Stefan