Life Insurance Dilema

[Joe]

I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
you have gone through this already.

Here are the details:
I finished my private license last novemeber. I have flown a little
since, but only every 1-2 months.
I requested a quote from Zander (which is basically a broker that
represents many companies). On my original request, I said I was a
pilot. They wrote me back and requested a few more pieces of
information related to my flying like total hours, ratings, hours per
year, etc.

For a $1M, 10-year term policy, with my particulars, with aviation
coverage, they quoted $295 /year BUT, until I had 100 solo hours and
had an annual rate of 25 hours a year, there would be an additional
charge of $2900 annually. Yikes. I can probably swing the 25 hours a
year without too much effort, but I currently only have 20 hours of
solo time. So, it is going to cost me something like $6,000 to amass
that sort of time. Although I would love to go do that next month, my
finances don't allow that at the moment.

So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema before? Does
anyone reading this have limited flying experience like I do but have
gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other companies I should look
into?

I would really appreciate any advice. At this point I think I am going
to have to give up flying for a few years until I can actually afford
it. And that has got me kind of depressed.

Thanks,
Joe in Denver

[BTIZ]

Why do you need a 1M 10year term policy?
Find a broker who deals with companies that understand aviation.
Maybe lower your coverage?
Buy whole life?

I've been covered by life insurance and flying for over 30 years, I did not
have that problem when younger and rated and I was flying on active duty
with the military and still covered by "civilian" life insurance policies. I
did pay a $1/month extra premium to fly as PIC in civil aircraft until age
44. Then that extra went away. Now someone with the actuarial tables will
have to explain that one.

I also have a friend, who waited until military retirement to attempt to buy
"civilian" life insurance to protect his now young family. He is a civil
pilot of low experience and he is also having problems finding insurance
that will cover him as PIC in GA aircraft. His current policy specifically
states "not covered while PIC."

My companies "Group Policy" that is "free" and only covers 1 years salary
also states no coverage when operating aircraft as PIC. But it will cover me
to fly with someone else as a passenger.

B

"Joe" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> you have gone through this already.
>
> Here are the details:
> I finished my private license last novemeber. I have flown a little
> since, but only every 1-2 months.
> I requested a quote from Zander (which is basically a broker that
> represents many companies). On my original request, I said I was a
> pilot. They wrote me back and requested a few more pieces of
> information related to my flying like total hours, ratings, hours per
> year, etc.
>
> For a $1M, 10-year term policy, with my particulars, with aviation
> coverage, they quoted $295 /year BUT, until I had 100 solo hours and
> had an annual rate of 25 hours a year, there would be an additional
> charge of $2900 annually. Yikes. I can probably swing the 25 hours a
> year without too much effort, but I currently only have 20 hours of
> solo time. So, it is going to cost me something like $6,000 to amass
> that sort of time. Although I would love to go do that next month, my
> finances don't allow that at the moment.
>
> So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema before? Does
> anyone reading this have limited flying experience like I do but have
> gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other companies I should look
> into?
>
> I would really appreciate any advice. At this point I think I am going
> to have to give up flying for a few years until I can actually afford
> it. And that has got me kind of depressed.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe in Denver
>

[Jim Macklin]

http://www.aopa.org/info/certified/insurance.html

http://www.eaa.org/memberbenefits.html Link to
insurance agency on page.



"BTIZ" > wrote in message
news:5xzCg.23704$6w.10571@fed1read11...
| Why do you need a 1M 10year term policy?
| Find a broker who deals with companies that understand
aviation.
| Maybe lower your coverage?
| Buy whole life?
|
| I've been covered by life insurance and flying for over 30
years, I did not
| have that problem when younger and rated and I was flying
on active duty
| with the military and still covered by "civilian" life
insurance policies. I
| did pay a $1/month extra premium to fly as PIC in civil
aircraft until age
| 44. Then that extra went away. Now someone with the
actuarial tables will
| have to explain that one.
|
| I also have a friend, who waited until military retirement
to attempt to buy
| "civilian" life insurance to protect his now young family.
He is a civil
| pilot of low experience and he is also having problems
finding insurance
| that will cover him as PIC in GA aircraft. His current
policy specifically
| states "not covered while PIC."
|
| My companies "Group Policy" that is "free" and only covers
1 years salary
| also states no coverage when operating aircraft as PIC.
But it will cover me
| to fly with someone else as a passenger.
|
| B
|
| "Joe" > wrote in message
|
oups.com...
| >I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for
the first time
| > and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I
am sure many of
| > you have gone through this already.
| >
| > Here are the details:
| > I finished my private license last novemeber. I have
flown a little
| > since, but only every 1-2 months.
| > I requested a quote from Zander (which is basically a
broker that
| > represents many companies). On my original request, I
said I was a
| > pilot. They wrote me back and requested a few more
pieces of
| > information related to my flying like total hours,
ratings, hours per
| > year, etc.
| >
| > For a $1M, 10-year term policy, with my particulars,
with aviation
| > coverage, they quoted $295 /year BUT, until I had 100
solo hours and
| > had an annual rate of 25 hours a year, there would be an
additional
| > charge of $2900 annually. Yikes. I can probably swing
the 25 hours a
| > year without too much effort, but I currently only have
20 hours of
| > solo time. So, it is going to cost me something like
$6,000 to amass
| > that sort of time. Although I would love to go do that
next month, my
| > finances don't allow that at the moment.
| >
| > So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema
before? Does
| > anyone reading this have limited flying experience like
I do but have
| > gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other
companies I should look
| > into?
| >
| > I would really appreciate any advice. At this point I
think I am going
| > to have to give up flying for a few years until I can
actually afford
| > it. And that has got me kind of depressed.
| >
| > Thanks,
| > Joe in Denver
| >
|
|

[Jim Carter[_1_]]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Joe ]
> Posted At: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:14 AM
> Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting
> Conversation: Life Insurance Dilema
> Subject: Life Insurance Dilema
>
> I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> you have gone through this already.
>

1) If your employer offers it, group life is a very good option and
usually doesn't have limitations like skydiving and flying as PIC.

2) Try a shorter term and then change it as your experience grows.

3) "But honey, I have to go fly to keep our insurance rates
down..."

4) If you are just now buying life insurance then it is probably
safe to assume you are at the fresher end of the age timeline. Do you
really need $10mm? If so, take out the absolute minimum you really need
with PIC approved for a year or so and then take out another policy to
extend the coverage up to your requirements to cover the other 90% of
your time.

5) Typically, people don't require more than 10 times their annual
income, so using your figure of $10mm implies an annual income of $1mm.
If that's true then what the heck is $2900 other than pocket change?

[Nathan Young]

On 9 Aug 2006 22:14:26 -0700, "Joe" > wrote:

>So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema before? Does
>anyone reading this have limited flying experience like I do but have
>gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other companies I should look
>into?

http://www.piclife.com/

Aviation friendly policies.

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

You moved a zero.

He said "For a $1M, 10-year term policy".....


"Jim Carter" > wrote in message
news:000101c6bc7a$068f89a0$4001a8c0@omnibook6100.. .
>
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Joe ]
> > Posted At: Thursday, August 10, 2006 12:14 AM
> > Posted To: rec.aviation.piloting
> > Conversation: Life Insurance Dilema
> > Subject: Life Insurance Dilema
> >
> > I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> > and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> > you have gone through this already.
> >
>
> 1) If your employer offers it, group life is a very good option and
> usually doesn't have limitations like skydiving and flying as PIC.
>
> 2) Try a shorter term and then change it as your experience grows.
>
> 3) "But honey, I have to go fly to keep our insurance rates
> down..."
>
> 4) If you are just now buying life insurance then it is probably
> safe to assume you are at the fresher end of the age timeline. Do you
> really need $10mm? If so, take out the absolute minimum you really need
> with PIC approved for a year or so and then take out another policy to
> extend the coverage up to your requirements to cover the other 90% of
> your time.
>
> 5) Typically, people don't require more than 10 times their annual
> income, so using your figure of $10mm implies an annual income of $1mm.
> If that's true then what the heck is $2900 other than pocket change?
>
>

[Skylune[_1_]]

Lets hope the same mistake does not occur using the altimeter.

Most life insurance policies have exclusions or addtional charges for high
risk activities, including sky diving and scuba diving. Their actuaries
know how to price risk.

[Peter R.]

BTIZ > wrote:

> Why do you need a 1M 10year term policy?

Assuming one's goal is to provide for a stay-at-home wife and young
children, one million is actually not the large amount of money you might
think it is, considering it might need to be spread out over fifteen to
twenty years (enough years to provide for the family after the main
provider has died until the children reach an age of independence).

> Buy whole life?

Whole life traditionally has been a scam of sorts. Not sure about today's
version, but the traditional opinion held by astute financial minds is to
avoid whole life policies.

--
Peter

[Jose[_1_]]

> You may find that a short flying hiatus
> will put you into the "non pilot" or "no current intention to continue"
> category and that you can resume flying at some point after the policy is
> purchased with no effects to your coverage or premiums.

Would that not be likely to be challenged once you actually =need= the
policy? It would be obvious in retrospect the scam you were (allegedly)
pulling.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

Northwestern Mutual.

I have several policies with them for much larger amounts than you are
searching for. My first was after my private with no increased premium.
Second and third policies were after my commercial and CFI, again, no
increased premium. The agent is the key. Make sure your agent has your
interests in mind and not his wallet. Make your agent consult with his
superiors, do not take his word. Make him do his work.

Ask him how the policy treats current activities i.e.: when the policy is
purchased VS future activities. You may find that a short flying hiatus
will put you into the "non pilot" or "no current intention to continue"
category and that you can resume flying at some point after the policy is
purchased with no effects to your coverage or premiums.

Jim

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

If I read my altimeter as 10,000,000 ft when it's really only 1,000,000
feet, I'll have other issues to deal with.

It sounds to me like their actuaries never priced the risk, so they price it
out of the market.

"Skylune" > wrote in message
lkaboutaviation.com...
> Lets hope the same mistake does not occur using the altimeter.
>
> Most life insurance policies have exclusions or addtional charges for high
> risk activities, including sky diving and scuba diving. Their actuaries
> know how to price risk.
>

[Jim Burns[_1_]]

Good question and one that I asked more than once. The explanations that I
received from several Northwestern reps were that the policy is written at a
specific point in time for a person meeting specific requirements. If I
meet the requirements of the policy when the policy is written and I meet
the requirements of the policy when I die they will pay out as long as I
haven't violated any other conditions of the policy. There are conditions
that I must report to the company if they develop or I partake in them, such
as skydiving, but resumption of flying was not one.

My case was that I had quit flying for 8 years between my private/instrument
and my commercial. I already had one policy and it was a big concern to me
when I bought my second policy. I was assured by not only the agent, his
supervisor, and the companies legal office that if I had noted that I had no
intention at that time of resuming my flying activities but then later
changed my mind and started flying again it would have no effect on the
coverage or the premium. Since then I have also reported my hours and
ratings when purchasing additional policies, there have been no increased
premiums due to any of my additional ratings or certificates.

YMMV
Jim

[Jules]

BTIZ wrote:

His current policy specifically
> states "not covered while PIC."
>

That's actually sort of interesting. If he goes up as a passenger, no
matter who is flying, he is covered.

I have heard of some policies excluding any form of GA.

[Jose[_1_]]

> if I had noted that I had no
> intention at that time of resuming my flying activities but then later
> changed my mind

It's the "intension" part that may hang you. If you did have intention
of flying, but did not dicslose that when asked, you could be guilty of
fraud. Resuming flying shortly after getting the policy (after stopping
shortly before) with no other reason in evidence, may be seen as
evidence that you did intend to resume flying, and lied about it.

Jose
--
The monkey turns the crank and thinks he's making the music.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:03:18 -0400, "Skylune"
> wrote:
> Most life insurance policies have exclusions or addtional charges for high
> risk activities, including sky diving and scuba diving. Their actuaries
> know how to price risk.

Let's see... I drive a motorcycle to the airport to go flying
somewhere to go diving... I wonder if that would make their
underwriters nervous...

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Carter wrote:
>
> 1) If your employer offers it, group life is a very good option and
> usually doesn't have limitations like skydiving and flying as PIC.

In my experience the general life does not exclude GA but the
accidental death portion of the policy does. Basically it means you
only get the coverage level you would get if you died of a disease, not
the higher (usually double) coverage you would get if you died in a car
crash. Usually the general portion of the employer policy only excludes
suicide and that is only in the first 12 months.

-Robert

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 10:03:18 -0400, "Skylune"
> > wrote:
> > Most life insurance policies have exclusions or addtional charges for
high
> > risk activities, including sky diving and scuba diving. Their actuaries
> > know how to price risk.
>
> Let's see... I drive a motorcycle to the airport to go flying
> somewhere to go diving... I wonder if that would make their
> underwriters nervous...

How do you carry all of your scuba gear on the bike?

Don't forget to wait 24 hours after diving to fly.

[Don Byrer]

On Wed, 9 Aug 2006 22:31:53 -0700, "BTIZ" >
wrote:

>Why do you need a 1M 10year term policy?
You should have at least 10x your income in life ins...
to support those who depend on you (wife, kids, etc)

Why term? it's the cheapest insurance there is.

Why 10 years? perhaps he plans to be self-insured in 10 years.

And I suspect I know why he went to Zander...must be a Dave Ramsey Fan
like me :) www.daveramsey.com

I went to Zander for a term life quote and input that I was a pilot.
They emailed that they would 'get back with me'...but never did.

I ended up buying from Avemco...~$800/year for $500K 20-year term for
a 40-year old 6' and 240 lbs. Would be less for someone younger or
in better shape. (Policy is underwritten by AIG)

I have ~400K thru work also...

>Find a broker who deals with companies that understand aviation.

see above...

>Maybe lower your coverage?
If he makes over 50K/year $1M coverage may be right.

>Buy whole life?
Please Don't!!!!!! If you do the math, you'll find that whole life
is one of the most expensive ways to buy life ins and the effective
interest rate is about 2-3%. You can do better with term life and a
good mutual fund.


--Don
Don Byrer KJ5KB
Radar Tech & Smilin' Commercial Pilot Guy
Glider student & CFI-SEL wannabe
kj5kb-at-hotmail.com

"I have slipped the surly bonds of earth; now if I can just land without bending the gear..."
"Watch out for those doves...<smack-smack-smack-smack...>"

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Thu, 10 Aug 2006 17:59:25 GMT, "Steve Foley"
> wrote:
> How do you carry all of your scuba gear on the bike?

My hangar acts as a good storage space for it...

> Don't forget to wait 24 hours after diving to fly.

If I'm going to be flying at any significant altitude, I will, but if
I'm only flying at 1000 ft, I don't worry about it...

[Jeff[_1_]]

I don't get all the posts in here for some reason so I apologize if this is
a duplicate....

but I have a $1M/30 yr term policy from the Pilots Insurance Co.
(www.piclife.com). Costs me
$86/mo.

jf


"Joe" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> you have gone through this already.
>
> Here are the details:
> I finished my private license last novemeber. I have flown a little
> since, but only every 1-2 months.
> I requested a quote from Zander (which is basically a broker that
> represents many companies). On my original request, I said I was a
> pilot. They wrote me back and requested a few more pieces of
> information related to my flying like total hours, ratings, hours per
> year, etc.
>
> For a $1M, 10-year term policy, with my particulars, with aviation
> coverage, they quoted $295 /year BUT, until I had 100 solo hours and
> had an annual rate of 25 hours a year, there would be an additional
> charge of $2900 annually. Yikes. I can probably swing the 25 hours a
> year without too much effort, but I currently only have 20 hours of
> solo time. So, it is going to cost me something like $6,000 to amass
> that sort of time. Although I would love to go do that next month, my
> finances don't allow that at the moment.
>
> So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema before? Does
> anyone reading this have limited flying experience like I do but have
> gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other companies I should look
> into?
>
> I would really appreciate any advice. At this point I think I am going
> to have to give up flying for a few years until I can actually afford
> it. And that has got me kind of depressed.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe in Denver
>

[Crash Lander[_1_]]

"Joe" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> you have gone through this already.
>
> Here are the details:
> I finished my private license last novemeber. I have flown a little
> since, but only every 1-2 months.
> I requested a quote from Zander (which is basically a broker that
> represents many companies). On my original request, I said I was a
> pilot. They wrote me back and requested a few more pieces of
> information related to my flying like total hours, ratings, hours per
> year, etc.
>
> For a $1M, 10-year term policy, with my particulars, with aviation
> coverage, they quoted $295 /year BUT, until I had 100 solo hours and
> had an annual rate of 25 hours a year, there would be an additional
> charge of $2900 annually. Yikes. I can probably swing the 25 hours a
> year without too much effort, but I currently only have 20 hours of
> solo time. So, it is going to cost me something like $6,000 to amass
> that sort of time. Although I would love to go do that next month, my
> finances don't allow that at the moment.
>
> So, my question is, has anyone else been in this dilema before? Does
> anyone reading this have limited flying experience like I do but have
> gotten a better deal elsewhere? Are there other companies I should look
> into?
>
> I would really appreciate any advice. At this point I think I am going
> to have to give up flying for a few years until I can actually afford
> it. And that has got me kind of depressed.
>
> Thanks,
> Joe in Denver
>

I've been checking into this myself lately, as I'm about to start flight
training, and have been told by the insurance company (talking in Australia
here) that a private aircraft, fixed wing, flying up to 100hours a year is
no worries. Over that, and premiums get loaded, or certain activities start
getting excluded.
Crash Lander

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jeff" <jfranks1971 minus > wrote in message
...
>I don't get all the posts in here for some reason so I apologize if this is
>a duplicate....
>
> but I have a $1M/30 yr term policy from the Pilots Insurance Co.
> (www.piclife.com). Costs me
> $86/mo.
>
> jf

Out of curiosity how old were you when the policy was created?

[Skylune[_1_]]

Probably no more than my back country skiing in Maine. Check the
provisions of the so-called "avaiation friendly" policies with one you can
get if you are not a GA pilot.

[Emily[_1_]]

Joe wrote:
> I am in the process of trying to buy life insurance for the first time
> and I was wondering if anyone had any advice for me. I am sure many of
> you have gone through this already.
><snip>

Why do you need life insurance?

I have some just because my company provides it, and they don't care
that I'm a pilot. It even states that I'm covered while instructing.

[Jeff[_1_]]

>
> Out of curiosity how old were you when the policy was created?

I was 32 when I got the original setup.

I just had it requoted this year (I'm 36 now) and it was $92/month. and I
THINK that was 30 yr.(it was at least 20).

jf

[Jeff[_1_]]

Oh. I meant to add that the original price was for me with 0 hours and a
student pilot.

Once you get 200+ hours, the rates start going down....great company to work
with too!

jf

>> Out of curiosity how old were you when the policy was created?
>
> I was 32 when I got the original setup.
>
> I just had it requoted this year (I'm 36 now) and it was $92/month. and I
> THINK that was 30 yr.(it was at least 20).
>
> jf
>
>
>

[Peter R.]

Emily > wrote:

> Why do you need life insurance?

Do you have children? Are you the only income provider for your children?

--
Peter