Joined the club today........

[[email protected]]

My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........

I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.

Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.

The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
the grass except for the runway sign........
Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
(about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
again the following week.
I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......

Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
trust) but you'll get there in the end.

[Gene Seibel]

Congratulations. Glad to have you aloft. Sounds like you earned it.

As for being upside down - been there, done that. Unfortunately, it was
later in my flying career when I should have known better.
--
Gene Seibel
Tales of Flight - http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.



wrote:
> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>
> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>
> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>
> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
> and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
> as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
> the grass except for the runway sign........
> Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
> had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
> fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
> arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
> relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
> (about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
> Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
> phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
> I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
> never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
> again the following week.
> I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
> there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
> away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
> stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......
>
> Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
> this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
> there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
> perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
> trust) but you'll get there in the end.

[Jon Kraus]

Congratulations on getting your ticket...

One of the first things I learned to call out on the take-off roll was
"airspeed is alive". This usually occurs at about 40 MPH on our Mooney,
giving you plenty of time to stop if the "airspeed isn't alive". I call
it out everytime I am on the roll even when solo...

Jon Kraus

wrote:

> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>
> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>
> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>
> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
> and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
> as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
> the grass except for the runway sign........
> Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
> had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
> fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
> arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
> relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
> (about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
> Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
> phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
> I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
> never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
> again the following week.
> I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
> there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
> away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
> stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......
>
> Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
> this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
> there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
> perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
> trust) but you'll get there in the end.
>

[kontiki]

Congratulations! Welcome to the fold.

I had a similar experience with a non-functional ASI but fortunately
was able to determine that the airplane wanted to fly so I went around
and landed to find the pitot blocked by a bit of cloth.

Confidence based on good training and all the experience you can get will
make the rest of your flying career safe and rewarding. Always try to
stay current and avoid feeling over confident. ;^)

Good luck and happy trails...

[[email protected]]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> Congratulations on getting your ticket...
>
> One of the first things I learned to call out on the take-off roll was
> "airspeed is alive". This usually occurs at about 40 MPH on our Mooney,
> giving you plenty of time to stop if the "airspeed isn't alive". I call
> it out everytime I am on the roll even when solo...
>
> Jon Kraus
>


I'm sure that's a good routine, Jon.
For certain I do that in my head at least on every takeoff since then!

[Ron Garret]

In article om>,
wrote:

> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
> and ran out of rudder.
....
> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.

Personally I think your instructor was to blame if he didn't tell you to
check the airspeed indicator shortly after commencing the takeoff roll
to make sure it's working. "Airspeed is alive" should always be part of
your takeoff checklist. If you haven't realized that the ASI is dead
until well after reaching rotation speed you're doing something very
wrong.

Also, you should be able to fly a 150 without an ASI simply by feel and
sound (though not necessarily on a second solo).

rg

[[email protected]]

Ron Garret wrote:
>>
> Personally I think your instructor was to blame if he didn't tell you to
> check the airspeed indicator shortly after commencing the takeoff roll
> to make sure it's working. "Airspeed is alive" should always be part of
> your takeoff checklist. If you haven't realized that the ASI is dead
> until well after reaching rotation speed you're doing something very
> wrong.
>

Interestingly, Ron, "AIrspeed is alive" was not on the checklist with
my flyingschool in 1990, nor currently, though it's on my checklist
now!

> Also, you should be able to fly a 150 without an ASI simply by feel and
> sound (though not necessarily on a second solo).
>
> rg

I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......

[Gig 601XL Builder]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>
> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>
> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>


Congratulations now you are fully qualified to come here and talk about
politics.

Really, Congrats.

[bk]

Congratulations on getting your ticket.

How do you feel about airspeed indication now? A useful exercise is to
get an instructor, put paper over the ASI, and fly the pattern a few
times so that you can takeoff and land without reference to airspeed,
just attitude by looking out the window and feeling the yoke.

Enjoy your new privileges,

Bruce

wrote:
> Ron Garret wrote:
> >>
> > Personally I think your instructor was to blame if he didn't tell you to
> > check the airspeed indicator shortly after commencing the takeoff roll
> > to make sure it's working. "Airspeed is alive" should always be part of
> > your takeoff checklist. If you haven't realized that the ASI is dead
> > until well after reaching rotation speed you're doing something very
> > wrong.
> >
>
> Interestingly, Ron, "AIrspeed is alive" was not on the checklist with
> my flyingschool in 1990, nor currently, though it's on my checklist
> now!
>
> > Also, you should be able to fly a 150 without an ASI simply by feel and
> > sound (though not necessarily on a second solo).
> >
> > rg
>
> I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
> on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
> to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
> confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......

[Ken Finney]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>>
>> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
>> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>>
>> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
>> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
>> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
>> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>>
>
>
> Congratulations now you are fully qualified to come here and talk about
> politics.
>

As long as he is a Tory, that is...

;^)

Congrats!

[[email protected]]

bk wrote:
> Congratulations on getting your ticket.
>
> How do you feel about airspeed indication now? A useful exercise is to
> get an instructor, put paper over the ASI, and fly the pattern a few
> times so that you can takeoff and land without reference to airspeed,
> just attitude by looking out the window and feeling the yoke.
>
> Enjoy your new privileges,
>
> Bruce
>


I'll try that Bruce.
Clearly at the end of initial PPL training, one's feel for the aircraft
is somewhat better than at the start.

[Bob Moore]

> I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
> on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
> to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
> confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......

As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
you go, the more rudder control you have.

BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.

Bob Moore
CFI ATP
B-707 B-727
PanAm (retired)

[Steph[_1_]]

Bob Moore wrote:
> I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
> you go, the more rudder control you have.
>

Just trying to explain what it felt like. I'm not sure that cessna 150s
behave too well at 70knots and full power being held down on the tarmac
by a novice pilot who is still waiting for the ASI to show something. I
suspect I'd do better next time.

[Steph[_1_]]

Bob Moore wrote:

>
> As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
> pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
> the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
> and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
> without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
> entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
> RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
> Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
> Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
> nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
> I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
> flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
> 75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
> final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
> indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
> I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
> you go, the more rudder control you have.
>


I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.

[Bob Moore]

Steph wrote
> Just trying to explain what it felt like. I'm not sure that cessna 150s
> behave too well at 70knots and full power being held down on the tarmac
> by a novice pilot who is still waiting for the ASI to show something. I
> suspect I'd do better next time.

Ah-Ha...wheelbarrowing...it does become difficult to control.

Bob Moore

[Bob Moore]

Steph wrote

> I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
> the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
> not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.

With 1500 RPM and the nose below the horizon, the airplane
WILL NOT stall. :-) There are some qualifications to this
generalized statement, learn what the runway looks like on a
stabilized approach and just always put the nose in that same
position every time, it WILL NOT stall.

Bob Moore

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote

> As for being upside down - been there, done that. Unfortunately, it was
> later in my flying career when I should have known better.

Now, Gene, you aren't playing by the rules.

You should know that you can't let *that* cat out of the bag, without
telling the dark tale, on yourself!
<g>
--
Jim in NC

[[email protected]]

Hi,

Congratulations for your PPL license. Same with me, my wife finally
allow me to take a PPL lesson on my birthday this year. Probably she
was sick of me playing the Flight Simualtor every day after work. Ive
been playing that game for 15 yeras. In fact when I am joining this
school i was able to land the plane on my first day lesson. I believe
that I am able to finish the PPL program max in 48 hours. But the
program was already set up so I wont be able to be solo until flying
dual about 20 hours. That means it will take about 60-70 hours until I
can get my PPL. THey still have to teach me about reading the flight
Indicator which I already know and it will take 2 hours minimum. Its
just a procedure they said.
Do I need to find a different school ? or can I customize my own
program but of course has to be meet the FAA regulations.
For example, the school will teach me the Flight pattern and the radio
comm almost at the end of the lesson. I believe that is very important
and they have to teach on the second or thirt meeting, is that true? On
their program also have 1 hours just to learn slow flight, which I
already familiar with the procedure just learning from Flight sim.
On my first flight, I learn descent, Climb, Tuurn and Straight and
Level in 0.6 Hour and plus I land the airplane. All of those learned
from SIm.
Do you have an input or a better learning program that I can follow and
I can jsut show it to my instructure to follow your program?

Thank you for your help.





wrote:
> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>
> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>
> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>
> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
> and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
> as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
> the grass except for the runway sign........
> Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
> had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
> fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
> arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
> relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
> (about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
> Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
> phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
> I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
> never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
> again the following week.
> I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
> there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
> away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
> stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......
>
> Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
> this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
> there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
> perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
> trust) but you'll get there in the end.

[Emily[_1_]]

wrote:
> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
<snip>
Wow, I'm not sure I would have continued after that! Congratulations!

[Jon Kraus]

OK... I'll bite... what is a Flight Indicator? Is the Flight pattern
different than the traffic pattern? Enquiring minds want to know...

Jon

wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Congratulations for your PPL license. Same with me, my wife finally
> allow me to take a PPL lesson on my birthday this year. Probably she
> was sick of me playing the Flight Simualtor every day after work. Ive
> been playing that game for 15 yeras. In fact when I am joining this
> school i was able to land the plane on my first day lesson. I believe
> that I am able to finish the PPL program max in 48 hours. But the
> program was already set up so I wont be able to be solo until flying
> dual about 20 hours. That means it will take about 60-70 hours until I
> can get my PPL. THey still have to teach me about reading the flight
> Indicator which I already know and it will take 2 hours minimum. Its
> just a procedure they said.
> Do I need to find a different school ? or can I customize my own
> program but of course has to be meet the FAA regulations.
> For example, the school will teach me the Flight pattern and the radio
> comm almost at the end of the lesson. I believe that is very important
> and they have to teach on the second or thirt meeting, is that true? On
> their program also have 1 hours just to learn slow flight, which I
> already familiar with the procedure just learning from Flight sim.
> On my first flight, I learn descent, Climb, Tuurn and Straight and
> Level in 0.6 Hour and plus I land the airplane. All of those learned
> from SIm.
> Do you have an input or a better learning program that I can follow and
> I can jsut show it to my instructure to follow your program?
>
> Thank you for your help.
>
>
>
>
>
> wrote:
>
>>My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>>
>>I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
>>that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>>
>>Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
>>found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
>>iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
>>I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>>
>>The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
>>I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
>>speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
>>indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
>>and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
>>as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
>>the grass except for the runway sign........
>>Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
>>had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
>>fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
>>arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
>>relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
>>(about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
>>Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
>>phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
>>Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
>>climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
>>though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
>>crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
>>I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
>>never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
>>again the following week.
>>I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
>>there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
>>away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
>>stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......
>>
>>Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
>>this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
>>there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
>>perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
>>trust) but you'll get there in the end.
>
>

[[email protected]]

Hi Bob,


Since you have 35 years experience as an instructore, perhaps you can
help me.
I am attending flying school PART61 and jsut fly one time. But aI was
able to land the airplane by my self, thanks to Flight SImulator.
Based on my 15 years experience on the Flight Simulator, do you have
any input as far as a program that fits with me? The school offered me
a standart program for a student that have zero knowledge about
airplane, and I believe I am about one or two step ahead of them.
I am familiar with S Turn, Steep Turn, Lazy 8, Traffic Patern,
Rectagle, Touch and Go etc.
I also Familiar with the preflight check, VFR, IFR Learning ADF, NDP
and also using approach plate. On my first flight lesson, I learned
Climb, Descend, Turn and Straight and level perfectly and plus landed
the cessna 152 right in the middle.
Based on your experience, Could you please give me an input regarding a
type of program that can be customize for me. Of course i am hoping
that my skilll from Fligth Sim will safe me money big time.

The flying school will teach me a radio comm and flight patern after 20
hour dual flight or meeting number 20th. What happen while during the
lesson, my instructure passed out and I have no idea waht to say on the
radio.

Thank you Bob for your time

Thank you Bob, I appreciate your time.




Bob Moore wrote:
> > I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
> > on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
> > to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
> > confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......
>
> As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
> pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
> the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
> and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
> without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
> entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
> RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
> Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
> Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
> nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
> I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
> flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
> 75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
> final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
> indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily. :-)
> I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
> you go, the more rudder control you have.
>
> BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
> things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.
>
> Bob Moore
> CFI ATP
> B-707 B-727
> PanAm (retired)

[Dave Doe]

In article om>,
says...
> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>
> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>
> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>
> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
> and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
> as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
> the grass except for the runway sign........

It sounds like your lack of experience that this occurred, and is very
unfortunate that it was indeed only your second solo. Still, you should
have known (the theory) that you would have had *lots* of rudder control
at say 60,70kts (whatever you were hooning along at - on the ground :)

And even though it was your second solo (how many hours by the way, at
the time?) - I'd have thought you would have *felt* that the a/c was
willing to fly (however, I accept that your limited experience may well
have hindered that).

> Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
> had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
> fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
> arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
> relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
> (about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
> Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
> phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
> I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
> never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
> again the following week.

I think you made the right choice - and experience like that can just
dwell on your mind for ages and ages if you don't just 'get back into
it'.


> I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
> there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
> away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
> stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......

My first solo X-country was indeed memorable too. I remember yelling in
the plane - many ya hoos. It was a hell of a buzz (in a wee Traumahawk
:)


> Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
> this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
> there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
> perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
> trust) but you'll get there in the end.


--
Duncan

[Dave Doe]

In article >, rmoore16
@tampabay.rr.com says...
> Steph wrote
>
> > I'm sure you're correct, Bob, but my understanding is that stalls in
> > the circuit are a well-recognised cause of accidents? If so, it might
> > not be as automatic as you suggest for a novice.
>
> With 1500 RPM and the nose below the horizon, the airplane
> WILL NOT stall. :-) There are some qualifications to this
> generalized statement, learn what the runway looks like on a
> stabilized approach and just always put the nose in that same
> position every time, it WILL NOT stall.

I think the danger time is that turn onto final - too late, therefore
too steep, student gets fixaxted on the approach and the airspeed decays
in the turn.

I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???

--
Duncan

[tom]

The one time I took off with a non-functional ASI, it was because the
pito tube was blocked by this big red thing that stated: "REMOVE BEFORE
FLIGHT". Fortunately, I had enough time in that plane to fly
confidently without the ASI.
tom


kontiki wrote:
> Congratulations! Welcome to the fold.
>
> I had a similar experience with a non-functional ASI but fortunately
> was able to determine that the airplane wanted to fly so I went around
> and landed to find the pitot blocked by a bit of cloth.
>
> Confidence based on good training and all the experience you can get will
> make the rest of your flying career safe and rewarding. Always try to
> stay current and avoid feeling over confident. ;^)
>
> Good luck and happy trails...

[Emily[_1_]]

tom wrote:
> The one time I took off with a non-functional ASI, it was because the
> pito tube was blocked by this big red thing that stated: "REMOVE BEFORE
> FLIGHT". Fortunately, I had enough time in that plane to fly
> confidently without the ASI.
> tom

Yeah, only time that happened to me was in a twin. Still not sure what
caused it, probably ice. The really bad thing was that the ceiling was
about 700 feet and there was no way I was going up in that with no
airspeed indicator in a twin.

As to why we continued the takeoff after realizing the airspeed was not
functioning? We didn't look at it right after adding power, and by the
time we realized it wasn't working, it seemed too fast to pull power and
stop on the (short) runway. Live and learn.

[Jay Honeck]

> No student of mine has ever soloed
> without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
> entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
> RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
> Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
> Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
> nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
> I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
> flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
> 75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
> final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
> indicator?

That's exactly how I was taught to fly, Bob. And, thanks to this type
of training, when I eventually lost my ASI (admittedly after getting my
ticket), it didn't matter a bit. Everything was done by RPMs.

Still, it's a great day when somone gets their ticket -- so let's not
concentrate TOO much on the negatives. (I just went on a DC-3 ride,
and one of the other passengers just passed his checkride TODAY. Talk
about a day he'll never forget!)

Great job, Steph!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Steph]

"Dave Doe" > wrote in message
. nz...
> In article om>,
> says...
>> My flying training has taken a long time, I guess.........
>>
>> I started flying training in 1990, but lack of time and money meant
>> that I stopped after about 10 hours, before going solo.
>>
>> Last year, my wife bought me a block of lessons for my birthday, and I
>> found that I hadn't forgotten everything. I was so pleased I carried on
>> iwth training, and last week I passed my flight test, and this morning
>> I passed my written, and I now hold a Canadian PPL.
>>
>> The journey wasn't entirely without excitement. On my second-ever solo
>> I was rolling down the runway in a Cessna 150 waiting for rotation
>> speed - and it never came. By the time I realised the airspeed
>> indicator was not going to work, I was doing well over rotation speed
>> and ran out of rudder. The aircraft veered off the runway to the left
>> as I pulled the power, and it would have been an embarassing run across
>> the grass except for the runway sign........
>
> It sounds like your lack of experience that this occurred, and is very
> unfortunate that it was indeed only your second solo. Still, you should
> have known (the theory) that you would have had *lots* of rudder control
> at say 60,70kts (whatever you were hooning along at - on the ground :)
>
> And even though it was your second solo (how many hours by the way, at
> the time?) - I'd have thought you would have *felt* that the a/c was
> willing to fly (however, I accept that your limited experience may well
> have hindered that).


I felt it was willing to fly................but all of my instructors here
said they were happy I did not try to do a circuit with no ASI
As Bob pointed out, I may have been wheelbarrowing in inadvertently trying
to keep the aircraft on the runway.

>
>> Next I knew I was upside down, with fuel pouring down the windshield. I
>> had the presence of mind to switch off the mags and master, and the
>> fuel shutoff, and climbed out of the door, just as the fire trucks were
>> arriving. Fortunately, apart from a few nasty cuts and bruises, I was
>> relatively intact. I was even able to take part in a radio interview
>> (about something else) an hour later. And the nice chappy from the
>> Canadian Dept of Transport Accident branch who I had to speak to on the
>> phone was very understanding, as was my flying school chief instructor.
>> Examination off the written-off aircraft confirmed an orchard bee had
>> climbed into and blocked the pitot, and I was cleared of all blame,
>> though I'm sure if I'd had more experience, I would have avoided the
>> crash and simply been able to abort takeoff safely.
>> I decided that either I would get back in the air immediately, or I
>> never would again, so I had my next lesson the next morning, and soloed
>> again the following week.
>
> I think you made the right choice - and experience like that can just
> dwell on your mind for ages and ages if you don't just 'get back into
> it'.
>
>
>> I guess that was the most dramatic episode in my pilot training, but
>> there are so many memorable moments. The first solo, the first solo
>> away from the circuit, the first solo cross-country, the first power on
>> stall, the first landing at a tiny strip in the country.......
>
> My first solo X-country was indeed memorable too. I remember yelling in
> the plane - many ya hoos. It was a hell of a buzz (in a wee Traumahawk
> :)
>
>
>> Anyway, it was all worthwhile in the quest for a lifetime dream for
>> this aging new pilot.........I'm very happy to join the club. And if
>> there is a message for anyone still in the middle of training -
>> perservere. You'll have some low moments (though not as low as mine, I
>> trust) but you'll get there in the end.
>
>
> --
> Duncan

[Jack Allison[_1_]]

Congrats on sticking with things through rough experiences. As others
have mentioned "Airspeed Alive" is a good thing and something I say
aloud on every takeoff roll (right after "Instruments in the green").
One of those things I was taught during my PPL days and I've found it a
good habit.

[Gene Seibel]

It's all there at http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
--
Gene Seibel
The Farm - http://pad39a.com/gene/farm.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


Morgans wrote:
> "Gene Seibel" > wrote
>
> > As for being upside down - been there, done that. Unfortunately, it was
> > later in my flying career when I should have known better.
>
> Now, Gene, you aren't playing by the rules.
>
> You should know that you can't let *that* cat out of the bag, without
> telling the dark tale, on yourself!
> <g>
> --
> Jim in NC

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote

> It's all there at http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html

Too bad, about the second upside-down. Totaled, after that one?

You ought to check on your web pages. Well over half the ones I tried, were
dead links. I did like the ones that worked, though. Very nice.
--
Jim in NC

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On 21 Aug 2006 17:45:28 -0700, "tom" > wrote:
> The one time I took off with a non-functional ASI, it was because the
> pito tube was blocked by this big red thing that stated: "REMOVE BEFORE
> FLIGHT". Fortunately, I had enough time in that plane to fly
> confidently without the ASI.

Never had a blocked pitot tube and thus an inop ASI, but I have had a
blocked static port and thus an altimeter that wasn't quite right... I
had washed the plane and apparently there was still some water
blocking the static port... It disipated soon enough... No big deal...

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"bk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Congratulations on getting your ticket.
>
> How do you feel about airspeed indication now? A useful exercise is to
> get an instructor, put paper over the ASI, and fly the pattern a few
> times so that you can takeoff and land without reference to airspeed,
> just attitude by looking out the window and feeling the yoke.
>

Don't CFIs already do that during PP training? Mine sure did. As a matter of
fact I had to land 2 or three times prior to my check ride with the entire
6-pack covered. I know it was not part of the standards but every pilot that
trained where I was training did it or didn't get signed off for the check
ride.

[Gene Seibel]

Yea, totaled after that one. ;(

The pages are all working for me, except one FAA page that I'll fix.
Not sure if there was some temporary server problem earlier.?????
--
Gene Seibel
Hangar 131 - http://pad39a.com/gene/plane.html
Because I fly, I envy no one.


Morgans wrote:
> "Gene Seibel" > wrote
>
> > It's all there at http://pad39a.com/gene/tales.html
>
> Too bad, about the second upside-down. Totaled, after that one?
>
> You ought to check on your web pages. Well over half the ones I tried, were
> dead links. I did like the ones that worked, though. Very nice.
> --
> Jim in NC

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Gene Seibel" > wrote

> The pages are all working for me, except one FAA page that I'll fix.
> Not sure if there was some temporary server problem earlier.?????

Perhaps. Could be me, too. Stranger things have happened!

I'll look again, when I get a chance.
--
Jim in NC

[Morgans[_3_]]

"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Gene Seibel" > wrote
>
> > The pages are all working for me, except one FAA page that I'll fix.
> > Not sure if there was some temporary server problem earlier.?????
>
> Perhaps. Could be me, too. Stranger things have happened!
>
> I'll look again, when I get a chance.

Yep, working, again.
--
Jim in NC

[john smith]

> > I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???

Personally, I have lost three good friends due to stalls on base to
final. Two in an RV-6 in 1989 and one in a T-6 in 1999.

[Highflyer]

moore in Tampa Bay wrote:

> I think the danger time is that turn onto final - too late, therefore
> too steep, student gets fixaxted on the approach and the airspeed decays
> in the turn.
>
> I mean... how many planes have stalled in that turn in history???
>
> --
> Duncan

The turn from base to final is a bad place to stall. When someone stalls
inadvertently on that turn it is rarely, if ever, because they got too steep
in the bank. Pilots these days have been so thoroughly brainwashed that
they will NOT bank greater than thirty degrees in the traffic pattern.

When they find they are overshooting the turn and will be wide of the runway
they carefully hold their thirty degree maximum bank like they were taught
and then rush the turn by pouncing on the inside rudder to get the nose
around quicker. This doesn't really stall the whole airplane. It only
stalls the inside wing. The outside wing, which is still flying fine, then
proceeds to fly up and over the fuselage until it is the inside wing.
Unfortunately the resulting inverted position generally results in a quick
split ess maneuver that soon terminates when the airplane lands from the
inverted dive that results. This is not actually a spin because the
airplane generally contacts the ground at high speed before the spin has
time to properly develop.

Even a fortyfive degree bank only increases the stall speed by about
fourteen percent. The normal approach speed is about thirty percent above
stall speed. Consequently even a fortyfive degree bank in the pattern still
leaves you a fifteen percent margin. In a Cessna that is about five knots.

Of course, I must admit, I see few private pilots these days who can hold
their airspeed within five knots in a fortyfive degree bank. :-)

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

[Highflyer]

Based on my experience your skill with Flight Sim will give you so many bad
habits to unlearn and overcome before you can fly a real airplane safely
that it will take you considerably longer to achieve the competency required
to a license.

Highflyer
Highflight Aviation Services
Pinckneyville Airport ( PJY )

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Hi Bob,
>
>
> Since you have 35 years experience as an instructore, perhaps you can
> help me.
> I am attending flying school PART61 and jsut fly one time. But aI was
> able to land the airplane by my self, thanks to Flight SImulator.
> Based on my 15 years experience on the Flight Simulator, do you have
> any input as far as a program that fits with me? The school offered me
> a standart program for a student that have zero knowledge about
> airplane, and I believe I am about one or two step ahead of them.
> I am familiar with S Turn, Steep Turn, Lazy 8, Traffic Patern,
> Rectagle, Touch and Go etc.
> I also Familiar with the preflight check, VFR, IFR Learning ADF, NDP
> and also using approach plate. On my first flight lesson, I learned
> Climb, Descend, Turn and Straight and level perfectly and plus landed
> the cessna 152 right in the middle.
> Based on your experience, Could you please give me an input regarding a
> type of program that can be customize for me. Of course i am hoping
> that my skilll from Fligth Sim will safe me money big time.
>
> The flying school will teach me a radio comm and flight patern after 20
> hour dual flight or meeting number 20th. What happen while during the
> lesson, my instructure passed out and I have no idea waht to say on the
> radio.
>
> Thank you Bob for your time
>
> Thank you Bob, I appreciate your time.
>
>
>
>
> Bob Moore wrote:
>> > I'm sure you are correct, and I seriously thought about taking off, but
>> > on a second solo, with all the flying in the circuits so closely pinned
>> > to airspeeds, I'm glad I didn't. I certainly wouldn't have felt
>> > confident about knowing how far I was from stall speed on final......
>>
>> As a 35 year flight instructor, I feel that you received inadequate
>> pre-solo training. The pattern can (and perhaps should) be flown by
>> the use of pitch and power only. Set the power and pitch correctly
>> and the airspeed will be there. No student of mine has ever soloed
>> without flying an entire lesson (in and out of the pattern) with the
>> entire instrument panel completely covered except for the tachometer.
>> RPM settings....Takeoff and climb to pattern altitude...Full Power,
>> Downwind in a C-172, about 2100 RPM...who cares what the airspeed is?
>> Abeam the touchdown spot, set 1500 RPM, lower the nose and keep the
>> nose down, lower first noch flaps, who cares what the airspeed is?
>> I'll bet that it settles out at 85kts. On base leg, second notch of
>> flaps keeping the nose down and the airspeed WILL back right down to
>> 75kts. Turn final, keep the nose down (still with 1500 RPM) and drop
>> final flap and the airspeed WILL drop to 65kts. Who needs an airspeed
>> indicator? Only an inexperienced flight instructor! They scare easily.
>> :-)
>> I still don't understand your "I ran out of rudder" comment, the faster
>> you go, the more rudder control you have.
>>
>> BTW, here in the USofA, ultralights aren't even required to have such
>> things as altimeters and airspeed indicators.....and mine didn't.
>>
>> Bob Moore
>> CFI ATP
>> B-707 B-727
>> PanAm (retired)
>

[Dudley Henriques]

"Highflyer" > wrote in message
...
> Based on my experience your skill with Flight Sim will give you so many
> bad habits to unlearn and overcome before you can fly a real airplane
> safely that it will take you considerably longer to achieve the competency
> required to a license.

I STRONGLY second this opinion, both as a retired professional flight
instructor AND as a present Microsoft MVP with their flight simulation
program.
There is no substitute....and I repeat, NO SUBSTITUTE...... for a student
actually feeling the control PRESSURES that are inherent in the specific
type of aircraft being used for primary instruction. The "feeling" of these
pressures is a MAJOR part of the early learning curve. It is absolutely
critical that a student absorb the physical sensations and control responses
applicable to applied control pressures during this period.
The desktop flight simulators, even those using force feedback controllers
(especially these in my opinion) do NOT offer this critical input for the
student and in many cases can actually impede the student's progress with
actual flight training if used.
For these reasons, it has always been my recommendation that flight
instructors STRONGLY recommend that their students avoid the use of desktop
simulators between the first hour of dual and solo.
After that, under CFI supervision, a desktop simulator can be of use as a
teaching aid dealing with procedures, pre- cross country, and especially
primary instrument familiarization.
Dudley Henriques

[Jose[_1_]]

> For these reasons, [learning control pressures] it has always
> been my recommendation that flight instructors STRONGLY
> recommend that their students avoid the use of desktop
> simulators between the first hour of dual and solo.

What do you think of non-pilots using flight sim to practice "pinch
hitter" techniques, get comfortable with controlling the aircraft, and
such, along with occasional "would you like to fly" sessions. (My wife
is not too keen on actually flying the plane, though she has landed it
with an instructor; maybe this kind of practice would be good?)

Jose
--
"There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
what they are." - (mike).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Dudley Henriques]

I wholeheartedly recommend the Microsoft flight simulator as a tool to
introduce flying to prospective students as a pre-enrollment audio-visual
sales aid. Its perfect for that purpose.
The military is using it for that purpose now. I have in fact just finished
this year working on such a program using the simulator to be used by the
Italian Air Force in their training program.
As for using it in the pinch hitter scenario, I would recommend not doing
that; primarily for the same reason I gave for the pre-solo period
concerning control pressures, only in the PH scenario, its even more
critical as the situation relates to control pressures, as the pinch hitter
in almost every case, will have only one shot at taking over and
successfully landing the airplane.
In this scenario, having been exposed to actual control pressure vs airspeed
would be an absolute must for the PH to have any chance at all of landing
the airplane and walking away.
It all points to this very basic concept of "feeling" the control pressures.
This having been said, I wouldn't hesitate to allow your wife to use the
simulator with you there to help her of course, as a tool to SEE how the
controls function and what each control does.
This is not issue in the pre-flying stage but with any commencement of
actual flying in the PH program, I would stop using the simulator completely
at that point.
Dudley Henriques

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>> For these reasons, [learning control pressures] it has always
>> been my recommendation that flight instructors STRONGLY
>> recommend that their students avoid the use of desktop simulators between
>> the first hour of dual and solo.
>
> What do you think of non-pilots using flight sim to practice "pinch
> hitter" techniques, get comfortable with controlling the aircraft, and
> such, along with occasional "would you like to fly" sessions. (My wife is
> not too keen on actually flying the plane, though she has landed it with
> an instructor; maybe this kind of practice would be good?)
>
> Jose
> --
> "There are 3 secrets to the perfect landing. Unfortunately, nobody knows
> what they are." - (mike).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.