Reliability and Clubs...

[[email protected]]

I've been renting from the local flying club.

In the last five flights I've had 4 issues /maintance problems.

1Pilots PTT switch fails on 3 hour cross country, hand mic inop.
Finished flight using copilots mic jack and PTT.

2)Alternator charge indicator fails. maintance ended up replacing the
alternator.

3)Found cracked cowl on 172 , the fiberglass cowl ring just behind
the spinner was cracked 3/4 of the way around and about to come loose.

4)Took off in 172 to finish my IPC tonight and at 700 feet just off
the end of the runway the engine lost power for the longest 5 seconds
of my life. Returned to the field did a hard runup all normal.
After parking the plane I drained several cups of gas from both wing
tanks and the gas sump under the engine.
No dirt, no water the fuel is perfect.
The Fuel seector was on both and in place.
The primer was locked. (first thing I checked)


Am I just having a run of bad luck, or is this normal for older (mid
70's well used airplanes. All of this really makes me want to buy my
own plane,

I fear that I will be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

How long does take to get the bugs and issues worked out of an
older plane once purchased...
a)Never,
b)Its always perfect
c)Somewhere in between?

Lastly in a case of an issue like #4 what do you do if the mechanic
doesn't find anything?

[Don Tuite]

On Tue, 22 Aug 2006 20:18:24 -0700, wrote:


>Am I just having a run of bad luck, or is this normal for older (mid
>70's well used airplanes. All of this really makes me want to buy my
>own plane,

Ha!
>
>I fear that I will be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
>
Yep.
>How long does take to get the bugs and issues worked out of an
>older plane once purchased...
>a)Never,
>b)Its always perfect
>c)Somewhere in between?

I was talking to the guy we sold our club '61 172 to about a month
ago. There'd been an issue of a tiny oil leak around the accessory
case when he bought it. He said something along the lines of, "I
finally took everything off to get at that drip. Now the tube that
lubricates the top end of cylinder so-and-so is gushing oil."
Something had got loose and floated downstream, I guess.

Us old silverbacks, we look for a medical doctor around our own age.
The new guys/gals may be more current on the latest procedures, but
sometimes you have to factor in the age of the patient.

So, is a new plane better? Let's talk about "infant mortaility" as it
relates to failure rates.

It's a crapshoot, but one thing is certain. If a 172 gets used almost
exclusively for primary training, it'll need a lot of maintenance.

Don (Nobody in our club has done primary training for 20 years. That
was an extremely well caref-for 172, a lovingly maintained plane, but
it is defnitely a mature bird.)

[Peter Duniho]

> wrote in message
...
> [...]
> Am I just having a run of bad luck, or is this normal for older (mid
> 70's well used airplanes. All of this really makes me want to buy my
> own plane

An engine failure is certainly NOT normal, for any properly maintained
airplane.

The airplane you describe is certainly below the quality of any airplane
I've ever rented, and that includes a well-aged 1950's era 172 I ran into in
southwest Virginia ten or so years ago (actually, aside from being
cosmetically inferior, that plane was a pretty nice one to fly).

Seems to me that, at the very least, you need to find somewhere else to rent
from. Individually, the first two items on your list sound like reasonably
normal "could have happened to anyone" sorts of things, but the third and
fourth are just plain wrong. Taken together, they imply some significant
neglect of the airplane.

> I fear that I will be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.

Depends on whether you have enough cash on hand to take care of problems.

> How long does take to get the bugs and issues worked out of an
> older plane once purchased...
> a)Never,
> b)Its always perfect
> c)Somewhere in between?

Define "bugs". Any mechanical device, including an airplane, requires
maintenance. Things wear out and eventually fail. You will *always* be
fixing *something*.

However, it certainly is possible to get an airplane into a highly reliable
state. That is, you can't guarantee that things won't break, but you can
come pretty close to certainty that if something does break, it won't ruin
your day. You can never get to 100% -- even the most perfectly-maintained
plane can fail -- but you can get quite a bit better than what you've seen
in the plane you've been renting.

That said, you don't have to buy a plane to get one in that state. A large
proportion of the planes offered for sale will need some significant work
(and money) to get it up to snuff after purchase, since many planes are sold
because the owner lacked the time or funds to keep the airplane maintained
(or it became neglected simply because the sale of the plane was impending).
There ARE rentals available that have had this kind of maintenance done on
them regularly already. You can reap the benefits of good maintenance
without making yourself financially liable for that maintenance and without
putting down the capital investment in the airplane itself.

There are other aspects of ownership that provide benefits you can't get
from a rental situation, but quality maintenance isn't really one of them,
not if you find a good rental outfit.

> Lastly in a case of an issue like #4 what do you do if the mechanic
> doesn't find anything?

Don't fly the airplane until the mechanic does find something.

I suppose if you owned the airplane, AND the mechanic spend two days or so
looking at it and still could not find anything wrong with the engine, AND
the engine had been run on the ground (including at full power) for some
significant amount of time (30-60 minutes at a minimum, though probably not
all at the same time) without ANY sign of hesitation, then you might
consider spending a couple of hours or so test flying within gliding
distance of the airport (hopefully you've got a long runway, and use Vx
until you've got plenty of altitude) and eventually getting to a point where
you feel you can trust the airplane again.

After all, no one else is going to be your test pilot (well, actually...I
suppose you could find someone who might be willing to do it if you paid
them, but you'd better be sure you get them to sign a liability waiver so
it's clear everyone involved knows there's a larger than normal possibility
the engine could quit). And you might find it hard to sell an airplane when
the reason for selling is "unresolved engine failure".

But for a rental, you have no financial stake in the airplane. Why mess
around with it? Just find some place that rents airplanes that don't quit
on you just after takeoff.

Pete

[Dave S]

wrote:

> I fear that I will be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
>
> How long does take to get the bugs and issues worked out of an
> older plane once purchased...
> a)Never,
> b)Its always perfect
> c)Somewhere in between?
>
> Lastly in a case of an issue like #4 what do you do if the mechanic
> doesn't find anything?

Are these all the same plane? or different planes?

Who manages the maintenance? the owner? the club? an FBO that serves as
the broker for the leaseback (if not club owned aircraft).

When you say flying club, I envision a cooperative entity, not for
profit, run collectively by members or a volunteer board, with no paid
staff.

The club I was in (currently inactive) is selective about aircraft, has
squawks addressed promptly, and planes that become problem-children tend
to be weeded out fairly quickly. The owners were responsible for
having/paying the maintenance performed at a mechanic of the owners
choosing, but the club specified the minimum requirements (which were
essentially the same as if it was in for-profit use - 100 hr inspections
and such).

A general rule I've seen thrown around is about 200 hrs a year to make
ownership financially breakeven compared to rental (without any BIG
uh-ohs coming up).

Pros include knowing that YOU are where the buck stops with regard to
maintenance decisions and upkeep. If you have a tight month on money,
the hangar rent/tiedown rent/insurance bill comes due, as does the plane
note. You may spend a lot of money and never fly. You ALSO may come
across the deal of a lifetime and get a plane that will suit you well
for many years to come. Look for airplanes that fly often, and have well
documented maintenance, including compliance with AD's.

Another hint I've had thrown out to me.. the best deals are advertised
on bulletin boards at the airport.. not on the net or in glossy picture
magazines. Look around. Find a partnership - you arent't going to fly
every day are you? Sharing with one other or two other people may work
out just fine, and split the costs 3 ways. If one of them is an A&P then
thats even better.

Dave

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, said:
>4)Took off in 172 to finish my IPC tonight and at 700 feet just off
>the end of the runway the engine lost power for the longest 5 seconds
>of my life. Returned to the field did a hard runup all normal.

Did you put on the carb heat?

Clubs vary in the quality of maintenance, but my feeling is that a 25 year
old plane with 5000 hours on it is going to have maintenance problems
whether you are paying the whole shot or just a share. And in a club, if
plane "A" is down for maintenance, you can switch to plane "B", which you
can't do if you own only one plane.

--
Paul Tomblin > http://xcski.com/blogs/pt/
<<<You've got to love a newsreader with a menu option named "Kill this Author".
<<Does it work? And if so, is the death traceable?
<Nah, but Dave the Resurrector will just bring 'em back again.

[Jay Honeck]

> Another hint I've had thrown out to me.. the best deals are advertised
> on bulletin boards at the airport.. not on the net or in glossy picture
> magazines.

And the REAL cream puffs never make it to the bulletin board -- they
sell strictly by word of mouth, to people who have been waiting to buy
it.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> I've been renting from the local flying club.
> In the last five flights I've had 4 issues /maintance problems.

Find out who the "maintenance officer" for the club is, and let him
know the facts of life.

If there is no "maintenance officer", leave the club. If the club is
pinching pennies on maintenance, leave the club. If you don't find out
what went wrong with the plane that lost power, leave the club. There
are plenty of rental birds in the fleet -- there's no need to put up
with bad maintenance.

As for buying, I can heartily recommend it. Knowing who flew the plane
last, and having everything in the plane PRECISELY the way you left it
(and always leave it) is worth all the headaches, IMHO.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Larry Dighera]

On 23 Aug 2006 07:09:07 -0700, "Jay Honeck" > wrote
in . com>:

>As for buying, I can heartily recommend it. Knowing who flew the plane
>last, and having everything in the plane PRECISELY the way you left it
>(and always leave it) is worth all the headaches, IMHO.

As long as you overlook the price differential between the per hour of
operation cost of owning vs renting, your recommendation is valid. One
generally gets more by paying more.

[Jay Honeck]

> >As for buying, I can heartily recommend it. Knowing who flew the plane
> >last, and having everything in the plane PRECISELY the way you left it
> >(and always leave it) is worth all the headaches, IMHO.
>
> As long as you overlook the price differential between the per hour of
> operation cost of owning vs renting, your recommendation is valid. One
> generally gets more by paying more.

IF you find an honest, good A&P to work with, and IF you are inclined
to do a lot of work yourself, and IF the plane is in relatively good
shape to start with, you can own a plane and fly the pants off of it at
an affordable rate. (It helps to own a robust, common design, like a
Cherokee or a Skyhawk/Skylane.)

However, IF you take your plane to a big corporate shop, or IF some
major mechanical problem(s) arise, owning can literally rip the hide
off of you, financially.

It's no different than buying a house, a boat, or a business. YOU can
make a big difference, and some luck is involved.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gene Seibel]

Never perfect. Expect issues at annuals the first few years after
changing airplanes and after changing mechanics. In between, small
problems will arise, sometimes in clusters. I begin to wonder what's
wrong when months have gone by and there haven't been any little
annoyances.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.



wrote:
> I've been renting from the local flying club.
>
> In the last five flights I've had 4 issues /maintance problems.
>
> 1Pilots PTT switch fails on 3 hour cross country, hand mic inop.
> Finished flight using copilots mic jack and PTT.
>
> 2)Alternator charge indicator fails. maintance ended up replacing the
> alternator.
>
> 3)Found cracked cowl on 172 , the fiberglass cowl ring just behind
> the spinner was cracked 3/4 of the way around and about to come loose.
>
> 4)Took off in 172 to finish my IPC tonight and at 700 feet just off
> the end of the runway the engine lost power for the longest 5 seconds
> of my life. Returned to the field did a hard runup all normal.
> After parking the plane I drained several cups of gas from both wing
> tanks and the gas sump under the engine.
> No dirt, no water the fuel is perfect.
> The Fuel seector was on both and in place.
> The primer was locked. (first thing I checked)
>
>
> Am I just having a run of bad luck, or is this normal for older (mid
> 70's well used airplanes. All of this really makes me want to buy my
> own plane,
>
> I fear that I will be jumping out of the frying pan into the fire.
>
> How long does take to get the bugs and issues worked out of an
> older plane once purchased...
> a)Never,
> b)Its always perfect
> c)Somewhere in between?
>
> Lastly in a case of an issue like #4 what do you do if the mechanic
> doesn't find anything?

[Tom Conner]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> As for buying, I can heartily recommend it. Knowing who
> flew the plane last, and having everything in the plane
> PRECISELY the way you left it (and always leave it) is worth
> all the headaches, IMHO.
>

It helps if you can write some of the expense off on taxes as a business
expense. How many of your trips do you claim as business, and how many are
just personal?

[[email protected]]

The issues are with three different airplanes

Mic issues and Engine cough 172 #1
Bad crack on cowl 172 #2
Dead Alternator Dakota.

The Club has owners that leaseback to the club.
The owners are responsible for getting the maintance done.

(In all fairness the dakota owner seems to stay on top of things and the only reason
I ever fly the 172's is when the dakota is not availible.)

As it is one of the nicer aircraft in the fleet It is also often booked weeks in advance.

I'm the the process of getting checked out in a new G1000 182 at an FBO on the field,
the price is a bit steep at $185.00/hr, but the part that really hurts is
the 2.5 hr cross country minimum.


Paul (Same as the paul that started this thread, just a differnt computer)

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 12:19:03 +0000, Dave S wrote:

> The owners were responsible for
> having/paying the maintenance performed at a mechanic of the owners
> choosing, but the club specified the minimum requirements (which were
> essentially the same as if it was in for-profit use - 100 hr inspections
> and such).

One of the many things I like about the club to which I belong is that the
owner of the aircraft is the club...in other words, the members. So
there's no "owner" making choices; just the members.

That avoids any motivational conflict.

[It also makes for an excellent training ground for ownership.]

- Andrew
Paramus Flying Club
http://flyingclub.org/

[Andrew Gideon]

On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 07:50:34 -0700, Jay Honeck wrote:

> fly the pants off of it at an
> affordable rate.

My understanding is that ownership works better, financially, if you "fly
the pants off" the plane. If you don't fly enough, then
renting/partnering/clubing will be *financially* better.

- Andrew

[Jay Honeck]

> > fly the pants off of it at an
> > affordable rate.
>
> My understanding is that ownership works better, financially, if you "fly
> the pants off" the plane. If you don't fly enough, then
> renting/partnering/clubing will be *financially* better.

True. But for me, the fact that Atlas is sitting in my hangar, fully
fueled and ready to go at a moment's notice, is absolutely
irresistable. I find it amazing to see how few privately owned
aircraft fly regularly -- those owners apparently have more will power
than I do!

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

Is this the same Paul that flies out of KCRQ?


On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:17:27 -0700, wrote:

>The issues are with three different airplanes
>
>Mic issues and Engine cough 172 #1
>Bad crack on cowl 172 #2
>Dead Alternator Dakota.
>
>The Club has owners that leaseback to the club.
>The owners are responsible for getting the maintance done.
>
>(In all fairness the dakota owner seems to stay on top of things and the only reason
>I ever fly the 172's is when the dakota is not availible.)
>
>As it is one of the nicer aircraft in the fleet It is also often booked weeks in advance.
>
>I'm the the process of getting checked out in a new G1000 182 at an FBO on the field,
>the price is a bit steep at $185.00/hr, but the part that really hurts is
>the 2.5 hr cross country minimum.
>
>
>Paul (Same as the paul that started this thread, just a differnt computer)
>
>
>
>

Mike Flyin' 8

[[email protected]]

>Is this the same Paul that flies out of KCRQ?
Yes

Which Mike is this?

Paul

>
>
>On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:17:27 -0700, wrote:
>
>>The issues are with three different airplanes
>>
>>Mic issues and Engine cough 172 #1
>>Bad crack on cowl 172 #2
>>Dead Alternator Dakota.
>>
>>The Club has owners that leaseback to the club.
>>The owners are responsible for getting the maintance done.
>>
>>(In all fairness the dakota owner seems to stay on top of things and the only reason
>>I ever fly the 172's is when the dakota is not availible.)
>>
>>As it is one of the nicer aircraft in the fleet It is also often booked weeks in advance.
>>
>>I'm the the process of getting checked out in a new G1000 182 at an FBO on the field,
>>the price is a bit steep at $185.00/hr, but the part that really hurts is
>>the 2.5 hr cross country minimum.
>>
>>
>>Paul (Same as the paul that started this thread, just a differnt computer)
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>Mike Flyin' 8

[Margy Natalie]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>>>fly the pants off of it at an
>>>affordable rate.
>>
>>My understanding is that ownership works better, financially, if you "fly
>>the pants off" the plane. If you don't fly enough, then
>>renting/partnering/clubing will be *financially* better.
>
>
> True. But for me, the fact that Atlas is sitting in my hangar, fully
> fueled and ready to go at a moment's notice, is absolutely
> irresistable. I find it amazing to see how few privately owned
> aircraft fly regularly -- those owners apparently have more will power
> than I do!
>
> :-)
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>
You have a few advantages some folks don't have.
1. You work very near the airport where you keep your plane (some of us
have to drive over an hour to get to ours)
2. You are self-employed and I assume you can "flex" your hours at times
to match good weather.
3. You are in a two pilot family so there isn't any "You're going flying
again!?!?! You really need to clean the basement".

Margy

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

Was in PCF.... Alexander...

Out of curiosity.... Was the 172 you are talking about the Blue and
White one? 33WX?



On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 05:08:28 -0700, wrote:

>
>>Is this the same Paul that flies out of KCRQ?
>Yes
>
>Which Mike is this?
>
>Paul
>
>>
>>
>>On Wed, 23 Aug 2006 10:17:27 -0700, wrote:
>>
>>>The issues are with three different airplanes
>>>
>>>Mic issues and Engine cough 172 #1
>>>Bad crack on cowl 172 #2
>>>Dead Alternator Dakota.
>>>
>>>The Club has owners that leaseback to the club.
>>>The owners are responsible for getting the maintance done.
>>>
>>>(In all fairness the dakota owner seems to stay on top of things and the only reason
>>>I ever fly the 172's is when the dakota is not availible.)
>>>
>>>As it is one of the nicer aircraft in the fleet It is also often booked weeks in advance.
>>>
>>>I'm the the process of getting checked out in a new G1000 182 at an FBO on the field,
>>>the price is a bit steep at $185.00/hr, but the part that really hurts is
>>>the 2.5 hr cross country minimum.
>>>
>>>
>>>Paul (Same as the paul that started this thread, just a differnt computer)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>Mike Flyin' 8

Mike Flyin' 8

[Dave S]

Andrew Gideon wrote:

> One of the many things I like about the club to which I belong is that the
> owner of the aircraft is the club...in other words, the members. So
> there's no "owner" making choices; just the members.
>
> That avoids any motivational conflict.
>
> [It also makes for an excellent training ground for ownership.]
>
> - Andrew
> Paramus Flying Club
> http://flyingclub.org/
>


Good points.. The club I was in was 100% leaseback. BUT.. the way things
worked.. planes with chronic squawks or issues didn't rent much compared
to others in the fleet. If the plane wasn't well kept, wasn't reliable
(even with minor stuff) then the consumer didn't rent it (club members).

After two months of not renting enough to even generate enough revenue
to cover its insurance premium, the board would usually "ask" the owner
to remove his plane, lower the rental rate, or address the concerns.
More than one plane/owner was fired in this manner.

Dave

[Jack Allison[_1_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:

> As long as you overlook the price differential between the per hour of
> operation cost of owning vs renting, your recommendation is valid. One
> generally gets more by paying more.

The price differential depends on a lot of factors Larry. I'm assuming
that you're implying owning is more expensive than renting. In many
(perhaps most) cases, I would agree, it's cheaper to rent. However, I
think it depending on what you fly, how much you fly, whether you own
outright or through a partnership, and whether you're willing to do some
of the maintenance.

I fly a '71 Arrow and co-own with two other guys. We do as much of our
own maintenance as we can. The local cost of renting a newer Arrow
(Arrow III, they don't say what year) is $151/hr. wet. I flew 170 hours
in my first year of ownership. Renting would have cost $25,670. I
spent way less than that in my first year of ownership (even after
dividing up an $8K bill three ways as a result of the required repairs
discovered at our first annual).

Will I always fly 170 hours per year? Probably not but I'm shooting for
more than 100/year. Will we continue to have really expensive repairs?
Hopefully not but time will tell. Will I always have two other
airplane partners? I sure hope so.

--
Jack Allison
PP-ASEL-Instrument Airplane

"To become a Jedi knight, you must master a single force. To become
a private pilot you must strive to master four of them"
- Rod Machado

(Remove the obvious from address to reply via e-mail)

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:09:34 -0700, Jack Allison
> wrote:
> The price differential depends on a lot of factors Larry. I'm assuming
> that you're implying owning is more expensive than renting. In many
> (perhaps most) cases, I would agree, it's cheaper to rent.

Goes back to the old saying, "If it flies, floats, or ****s, it's
cheaper to rent than to buy"... Regardless though, if you want to own,
then you just put a higher value on the 'convenience factor' until the
numbers come out the way that you want them to come out... It doesn't
make them right, but you managed to 'justify' owning one of the above
three types of money pits...

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 23:09:34 -0700, Jack Allison
> wrote in
>:

>Will I always have two other airplane partners? I sure hope so.

Right. But Jay is the sole owner of his PA28. He pays more per hour
of operation, and enjoys increased utility for increased cost.

The financial advantages of coownership are undisputed (unless one of
your coowners crashes into a school bus full of children, and the
liability exceeds the value of your insurance policy). The fixed
costs (except engine overhaul) of aircraft ownership (hangar rent,
insurance, annual inspections, etc) become a smaller factor of hourly
operational cost in proportion to the total number of hours flown
monthly (more owners/operators means more hours flown) and depending
on how the ownership agreement is structured, those fixed costs may be
further reduced by their division among the coowners.

[john smith]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Right. But Jay is the sole owner of his PA28. He pays more per hour
> of operation, and enjoys increased utility for increased cost.

He also deducts a percentage of his ownership/operating costs as
business deductions on his income taxes.