PA-28-140 Cherokee advice

[drclive]

I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
about this airplane? Thanks in advance.

[Christopher C. Stacy]

"drclive" > writes:

> I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
> with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
> about this airplane? Thanks in advance.

Don't spin it.

[Dan Luke]

http://www.piperowner.com/

[Jim Macklin]

The fuel selector in the PA28 can develop leaks into the
cockpit, look for any fuel stains or smell of gas [near your
left knee.
Get a copy of all the AD and SB notes for the airplane.

Have fun.



"drclive" > wrote in message
ps.com...
|I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee.
Any of you
| with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints
and tips
| about this airplane? Thanks in advance.
|

[Robert M. Gary]

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> "drclive" > writes:
>
> > I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
> > with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
> > about this airplane? Thanks in advance.
>
> Don't spin it.

Why?

[rod]

>> Don't spin it.
>
> Why?
>
When I did my spin training for my CFI certificate in 1973 we did it in a
140. It doesn't want to spin, but once it does it does so normally and
predictably.

Rod

[Jay Honeck]

> http://www.piperowner.com/

I will "second" Dan's recommendation. The Cherokee Pilots Assocation
is a class act, with a terrific annual fly-in convention, and an
outstanding chat room called (not surprisingly) "Cherokee Chat" --
which you can only access with membership.

Membership also includes a subscription to their monthly magazine. I
highly recommend it.

Also, with regards to the 140, a few things:

1. Don't try to carry 4 adults, unless the back seaters are double
amputees.
2. Don't expect it to be a great performer. It's adequate in cool
weather, sluggish in hot weather, very forgiving, and can be landed on
a dime with practice.
3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.
4. The original stock panel lighting is, um, marginal, especially in
the early models.
5. It should have the auto-gas STC, which allows you to use regular
unleaded car gas in that Lycoming O-320. Use it -- you'll save over
$50 per tank-full, and the engine will thank you for not clogging it
with lead.

If it doesn't have the STC -- get it. (Unless you're trapped in one of
the states that have recently mandated the use of ethanol in all
gasoline -- in which case you're out of luck.)

The 140 is a great first plane -- a 2 adults + 2 kids plane with good
range and better-than-150/152 performance, at a great price. Fly it
everywhere, and enjoy that nice, 7 gph fuel burn!
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"


--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[John Galban]

Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> "drclive" > writes:
>
> > I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
> > with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
> > about this airplane? Thanks in advance.
>
> Don't spin it.

I spin mine on a regular basis. With proper technique and attention
to W&B, it's not much different than spinning a 152 or 172.

John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Jay Honeck" > wrote:

Having owned my 140 since 1994, I need to add some comments/responses to Jay's...

> 1. Don't try to carry 4 adults, unless the back seaters are double
> amputees.

agree - sort of. Not a lot of room back there. And watch out for
the relatively low useful load, especially if the airplane has air
conditioning.

> 2. Don't expect it to be a great performer. It's adequate in cool
> weather, sluggish in hot weather, very forgiving, and can be landed on
> a dime with practice.

agree (but performs noticably better with 160hp engine and cruise prop)

> 3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
> drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.

huh? Landing at night with the single 4509 is just fine. And taxing
at night isn't hard at all.


> 4. The original stock panel lighting is, um, marginal, especially in
> the early models.

Panel lights for the 140 didn't exist until late 1974. But the overhead
red light is ok - especially when combined with something like nulite
instrument lights.


> 5. It should have the auto-gas STC, which allows you to use regular
> unleaded car gas in that Lycoming O-320. Use it -- you'll save over
> $50 per tank-full, and the engine will thank you for not clogging it
> with lead.

Note that my 140 didn't like 100LL, but a friend's 140 drank the 100LL
with nary a problem. In other words, not all 140's will have problems with
100LL.


Additional comments:

If the 140 is nose-heavy, you can run out of stabilator on landing.

Don't use the lapbelt-thru-the-bowtie-yokes to secure the controls.
The bowtie yokes are plastic and can develop cracks. And it can't
be a good thing for the universals.

I would flightplan for 105 KTAS when my 140 had the 150hp engine.

Stalls are benign.

The 140's hersheybar wings are lighter in roll than other cherokees (tapered
wings or the longer wings on the 180).

Starting the airplane is easy - once you get the hang of "bumping" the starter.

Enjoy the airplane.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[BTIZ]

read ACE 97-02 on the FAA Web page..

BT


>>
>> Don't spin it.
>
> Why?
>

[Jay Honeck]

> > 3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
> > drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.
>
> huh? Landing at night with the single 4509 is just fine. And taxing
> at night isn't hard at all.

I guess everything is relative, but I found the landing light on a
Cherokee -- all Cherokees, not just 140s -- to be a joke. It's like
landing with a flashlight -- which really isn't too bad, but...

What IS bad (at our airport, especially, which has 50-year-old
reflectors instead of lights on the taxiways) is taxiing. That little
100 watt bulb out front (with its whopping 25 hour lifespan) is a
single point of failure that just, well, sucks. It doesn't light up
diddly squat, and if you don't know where you're going, a dark airport
is REALLY dark.

The solution is wing landing lights, which I've added to our Cherokee.
Put a couple of Q4509s out there and the taxiways look like broad
daylight -- and you look like a DC-9 on final approach...

:-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On 24 Aug 2006 20:27:50 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:
> The solution is wing landing lights, which I've added to our Cherokee.
> Put a couple of Q4509s out there and the taxiways look like broad
> daylight -- and you look like a DC-9 on final approach...

My solution for taxiing around those dark airports at night is a
750,000 candlepower handheld 12VDC light that I can plug into the
lighter port... I just slide back my canopy during the rollout after
landing and stick my hand with the light outside so that it won't
reflect off my windshield...

[Jim Macklin]

Careful the 750,000 candlepower light doesn't over-load the
cigarette lighter, they are not a high amperage circuit.


"Grumman-581" > wrote
in message
...
| On 24 Aug 2006 20:27:50 -0700, "Jay Honeck"
>
| wrote:
| > The solution is wing landing lights, which I've added to
our Cherokee.
| > Put a couple of Q4509s out there and the taxiways look
like broad
| > daylight -- and you look like a DC-9 on final
approach...
|
| My solution for taxiing around those dark airports at
night is a
| 750,000 candlepower handheld 12VDC light that I can plug
into the
| lighter port... I just slide back my canopy during the
rollout after
| landing and stick my hand with the light outside so that
it won't
| reflect off my windshield...

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Thu, 24 Aug 2006 23:20:04 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:
> Careful the 750,000 candlepower light doesn't over-load the
> cigarette lighter, they are not a high amperage circuit.

I haven't had a problem with it yet and I've been doing it for quite a
few years now... Regardless, I also have an 8Ah battery pack that I
built that has a lighter plug on it also... I usually use it to power
my PDA w/GPS so that I'm not completely dependent upon the internal
batteries in it... Sometimes I'll also use it to power my laptop, but
considering the fact that the laptop probably takes 50W, the 8Ah
battery would give me less than 2 hours of full power use out of it...
If I leave the display on the laptop closed except when I need to
refer to the moving map on it, I suspect that it will last quite a bit
longer... All in all, I tend to prefer not to leave these plugged into
the aircraft's lighter port...

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

Bob Noel wrote:
>
>> 3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
>> drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.
>
> huh? Landing at night with the single 4509 is just fine. And taxing
> at night isn't hard at all.
>

Anyone who thinks any Cherokee is badly lit should try my Beech 23 with
the single wingtip bulb. <G>

[bluenosepiperflyer]

Re spins:

I agree with John. The c of g for utility operations has to be observed
in the Cherokee 140: there have been 140 accidents where pilots spun
the airplane with the c of g too far aft, rendering the spin
unrecoverable. But then, most any airplane will be unrecoverable in a
spin if the c of g is too far aft.

With the c of g in the proper place, the airplane is reluctant to spin,
and will usually fly itself out of one if you just let go of the
controls.

Wayne Cochrane

C-GNGX 1975 PA28-140


John Galban wrote:
> Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> > "drclive" > writes:
> >
> > > I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
> > > with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
> > > about this airplane? Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Don't spin it.
>
> I spin mine on a regular basis. With proper technique and attention
> to W&B, it's not much different than spinning a 152 or 172.
>
> John Galban=====>N4BQ (PA28-180)

[Jay Masino]

Bob Noel > wrote:
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote:
>
> Having owned my 140 since 1994, I need to add some comments/responses to Jay's


I've had mine since '92, so I'll add a few comments too...


> > 1. Don't try to carry 4 adults, unless the back seaters are double
> > amputees.
>
> agree - sort of. Not a lot of room back there. And watch out for
> the relatively low useful load, especially if the airplane has air
> conditioning.

I've had three adults in mine... it's kinda tight. The rear person had to
angle their legs towards the center. Four is fine of the back seat passengers
are children.


> > 2. Don't expect it to be a great performer. It's adequate in cool
> > weather, sluggish in hot weather, very forgiving, and can be landed on
> > a dime with practice.
>
> agree (but performs noticably better with 160hp engine and cruise prop)

Or climb prop if you prefer to climb! The gap seal kits and Powerflow
exhaust also help in this area.


> > 3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
> > drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.
>
> huh? Landing at night with the single 4509 is just fine. And taxing
> at night isn't hard at all.

I agree with Bob. Its never been a problem.


>
> > 4. The original stock panel lighting is, um, marginal, especially in
> > the early models.
>
> Panel lights for the 140 didn't exist until late 1974. But the overhead
> red light is ok - especially when combined with something like nulite
> instrument lights.
>

I suplement mine with a few battery operated mini spot lights.


>
> > 5. It should have the auto-gas STC, which allows you to use regular
> > unleaded car gas in that Lycoming O-320. Use it -- you'll save over
> > $50 per tank-full, and the engine will thank you for not clogging it
> > with lead.
>
> Note that my 140 didn't like 100LL, but a friend's 140 drank the 100LL
> with nary a problem. In other words, not all 140's will have problems with
> 100LL.
>

I've used 100LL when my plane was 150hp, as well as 160. Never had a problem.
I switched to REM37BY spark plugs a long time ago... that may have helped.
I often wish I was still 150hp, though, so I could use autogas.



>
> Additional comments:
>
> If the 140 is nose-heavy, you can run out of stabilator on landing.
>

The stabilizer gap seal from Knots2U will help this.


> Don't use the lapbelt-thru-the-bowtie-yokes to secure the controls.
> The bowtie yokes are plastic and can develop cracks. And it can't
> be a good thing for the universals.
>

agreed.


> I would flightplan for 105 KTAS when my 140 had the 150hp engine.
>

A 160hp with gap seals can flightplan for 110-112 KTAS, reliably.


> Stalls are benign.
>

agreed.


> The 140's hersheybar wings are lighter in roll than other cherokees (tapered
> wings or the longer wings on the 180).
>

The gap seals make it even better!


> Starting the airplane is easy - once you get the hang of "bumping" the starter.

If you have copper cables and a good starter, you shouldn't need to "bump" it.
I haven't bumped mine for years.




--

Jay Masino "Home is where My critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:19:24 -0500, (Jay Masino)
wrote:
> I've used 100LL when my plane was 150hp, as well as 160. Never had a problem.
> I switched to REM37BY spark plugs a long time ago... that may have helped.
> I often wish I was still 150hp, though, so I could use autogas.

I can use autogas in my O-320 after I converted it from 150 hp to 160
hp... Have to use a minimum of 91 octane though...

[Jay Masino]

Grumman-581 > wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 10:19:24 -0500, (Jay Masino)
> wrote:
> > I've used 100LL when my plane was 150hp, as well as 160. Never had a problem.
> > I switched to REM37BY spark plugs a long time ago... that may have helped.
> > I often wish I was still 150hp, though, so I could use autogas.
>
> I can use autogas in my O-320 after I converted it from 150 hp to 160
> hp... Have to use a minimum of 91 octane though...

Which STC? Petersen's version is now something like $2500, plus
installation, because it requires a bunch of fuel system changes
including dual fuel pumps. At this point, I can still buy a lot of
avgas for that $2500.

--- Jay



--

Jay Masino "Home is where My critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:09:55 -0500, (Jay Masino)
wrote:
> Which STC? Petersen's version is now something like $2500, plus
> installation, because it requires a bunch of fuel system changes
> including dual fuel pumps. At this point, I can still buy a lot of
> avgas for that $2500.

Yeah, mine was the Petersen's version and it was nowhere close to that
price... No modifications to the aircraft other than to put a sticker
near the each gas cap on each wing and a metal tag on the engine... It
was something like a buck or so per HP, if I remember correctly...

[Jay Masino]

Grumman-581 > wrote:
> On Fri, 25 Aug 2006 13:09:55 -0500, (Jay Masino)
> wrote:
> > Which STC? Petersen's version is now something like $2500, plus
> > installation, because it requires a bunch of fuel system changes
> > including dual fuel pumps. At this point, I can still buy a lot of
> > avgas for that $2500.
>
> Yeah, mine was the Petersen's version and it was nowhere close to that
> price... No modifications to the aircraft other than to put a sticker
> near the each gas cap on each wing and a metal tag on the engine... It
> was something like a buck or so per HP, if I remember correctly...

Did you get the autogas STC before you went to 160hp? Anyway, I
exchanged e-mail with them last year, and all the "high compression"
(ha, ha) PA28s (-160, -180, -161, -181, etc) require the "special" fuel
system mods. I'm actually in an even more uncertain situation,
because of my Powerflow exhaust. Since I don't have the rear mounted
muffler of a typical 140, they were uncertain of how/if the STC would
apply. Apparently, the exhaust heat being close to the fuel system
(near the firewall) was one of the factors that required the high
compression aircraft to need the upgraded fuel system.

--- Jay

--

Jay Masino "Home is where My critters are"
http://www.JayMasino.com
http://www.OceanCityAirport.com
http://www.oc-Adolfos.com

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

On Sat, 26 Aug 2006 19:01:24 -0500, (Jay Masino)
wrote:
> Did you get the autogas STC before you went to 160hp?

Actually, I got it perhaps a month or so before I had the overhaul and
STC to 160 hp, but I bought the STC for the 160 hp engine even though
I used it while at 150 hp also... Technically, I was required to use
the 91 or better octane by what the STC said, but realistically, I
could have used 87 octane up until I had the overhaul...

No modifications whatsoever to my fuel system... I guess the Grummans
are a bit friendlier in that regard as compared to the Pipers...

The STC made quite a bit of difference while I was still with the 150
hp engine since it constantly fouled plugs on 100LL... With the 160 hp
engine, it doesn't seem to foul plugs on 100LL... It still gets a diet
of 100LL periodically whenever I'm flying someplace away from my home
airport, but the STC was definitely worth the price... I have a 55g
drum in my hangar that I have rigged up with a pressurization system
to act as a fuel caddy... When it gets empty, I toss the drum into the
back of my pickup, take it home with me, and fill it back up on the
way back to the airport the next time... I also fill the drum up prior
to any huricanes so that I have plenty of gas on hand in case of power
outages... If we don't lose power, it'll probably go into my autos
over the next couple of weeks... Or maybe I'll mix it with 93 octane
or 100LL to get 91 octane and put it in my plane... I probably need to
pick up a couple more barrels though... The last one I picked up was
while I was up in Cedar Rapids, IA on a contract for Rockwell
Collins... There was a place between my apartment and my hangar that
sold them for $10 each... The first time I filled it up, I more than
paid for the cost of the barrel...

[Dave[_3_]]

Hehe.. did that.

Was accused of being a Dash 8 at night..

..not a DC 9, but a close enough nice complement on our new lights. :

Dave

On 24 Aug 2006 20:27:50 -0700, "Jay Honeck" >
wrote:

>> > 3. Landing at night with that single GE 4509 shining out front is a
>> > drag. Taxiing at a dark, unfamiliar airport is REALLY a drag.
>>
>> huh? Landing at night with the single 4509 is just fine. And taxing
>> at night isn't hard at all.
>
>I guess everything is relative, but I found the landing light on a
>Cherokee -- all Cherokees, not just 140s -- to be a joke. It's like
>landing with a flashlight -- which really isn't too bad, but...
>
>What IS bad (at our airport, especially, which has 50-year-old
>reflectors instead of lights on the taxiways) is taxiing. That little
>100 watt bulb out front (with its whopping 25 hour lifespan) is a
>single point of failure that just, well, sucks. It doesn't light up
>diddly squat, and if you don't know where you're going, a dark airport
>is REALLY dark.
>
>The solution is wing landing lights, which I've added to our Cherokee.
>Put a couple of Q4509s out there and the taxiways look like broad
>daylight -- and you look like a DC-9 on final approach...
>
>:-)

[[email protected]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Christopher C. Stacy wrote:
> > "drclive" > writes:
> >
> > > I recently acquired a share in a Piper PA-28-140 Cherokee. Any of you
> > > with a lot of hours an experience could give me some hints and tips
> > > about this airplane? Thanks in advance.
> >
> > Don't spin it.
>
> Why?

Because it probably has both a vacuum driven artificial horizon and a
directional gyro, both rather costly instruments. When you spin the
plane you'll cause the gyros to tumble, which is very hard on the
bearings and other moving parts inside these instruments and will
contribute to their premature failure. For each time you watch an AI or
DG tumble around, picture in your mind the sights and sounds of an old
timey cash register going "ka-ching" "ka-ching" with dollar signs and
numbers in the several hundreds showing in the display.