Cloud Flying/ATC Issues, etc...

[Shawn Knickerbocker]

Good information & discussion…It is not as hard as
someone can make it…a few small issues…I also talk
with the local TRACON..so they are aware of myself
& intentions….Also, airplane drivers know this…no airplane
pilot in his right state of mind will fly through a
towering Cu!. A Cu under development has no downdrafts..it
has all up drafts…the only cloud that starts to produce
the downdrafts are a Cb..and for myself…I am long gone!
Lighting & fiberglass do not mix…one more issue, never
bail-out in a Cu or Cb…..it maybe so strong to continue
you in the open chute to altitudes.

As I mentioned, I do have a very long article, its
approx 15 pages…maybe to much for SSA…..however, I
just sent them a water down version…under 1000 words,
keep our fingers crossed?

Back to ATC issue….usually I just request an IFR recover
or short range IFR clearance. ATC is very good in working
with you..as long as you use correct terminology and
sound professional.

Alot is needed to conduct cloud flying...hard to put
it to pen here...

[[email protected]]

Shawn Knickerbocker wrote:
> Good information & discussion...It is not as hard as
> someone can make it...a few small issues...I also talk
> with the local TRACON..so they are aware of myself
> & intentions....Also, airplane drivers know this...no airplane
> pilot in his right state of mind will fly through a
> towering Cu!. A Cu under development has no downdrafts..it
> has all up drafts...the only cloud that starts to produce
> the downdrafts are a Cb..and for myself...I am long gone!
> Lighting & fiberglass do not mix...one more issue, never
> bail-out in a Cu or Cb.....it maybe so strong to continue
> you in the open chute to altitudes.
>
> As I mentioned, I do have a very long article, its
> approx 15 pages...maybe to much for SSA.....however, I
> just sent them a water down version...under 1000 words,
> keep our fingers crossed?
>
> Back to ATC issue....usually I just request an IFR recover
> or short range IFR clearance. ATC is very good in working
> with you..as long as you use correct terminology and
> sound professional.
>
> Alot is needed to conduct cloud flying...hard to put
> it to pen here...

I cannot think of any good reason to intentally fly IMC in a glider.
Can you?

[Jack[_1_]]

wrote:
> Shawn Knickerbocker wrote:
>
>>Good information & discussion...It is not as hard as
>>someone can make it...

>>A Cu under development has no downdrafts..it
>>has all up drafts...the only cloud that starts to produce
>>the downdrafts are a Cb..and for myself...I am long gone!

>>Alot is needed to conduct cloud flying...hard to put
>>it to pen here...


> I cannot think of any good reason to intentally fly IMC in a glider.
> Can you?


Assuming you'll accept a comment from someone other than Shawn: how
about, "...for altitude/distance?" A concept somewhat foreign to my own
soaring, admittedly, but I'm working on it -- outside of clouds for the
time being.

If you tell me you've never wanted to let a working cumulus carry you
higher, much higher, I'll be tempted to call you a liar -- of course, I
wouldn't do that -- but I might wonder whether you had any, um,
fundamental motivation -- yeah, that's it.


Jack

[Eric Greenwell[_1_]]

wrote:

>> Alot is needed to conduct cloud flying...hard to put
>> it to pen here...
>
> I cannot think of any good reason to intentally fly IMC in a glider.
> Can you?

I'd love the ability to cross large blue areas, and I know it would be
glorious to pop out the side of a towering cumulus at 20,000 and glide
through the cloud canyons. I've had a similar experience a couple times,
descending from a wave flights.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[[email protected]]

>
> I'd love the ability to cross large blue areas, and I know it would be
> glorious to pop out the side of a towering cumulus at 20,000 and glide.
Chances are the only thing you'll be doing after entering a towering
cumulus is looking for the rip cord after your beautiful 26 has come
apart around you Eric. The last guy we know of that went IMC in a
glider was quite rudly ejected from his 26 and he's a high time power
pilot that's paid to fly IMC. Don't get me wrong I enjoyed getting my
instrument rating and flying IFR, but I think glider pilots that are
not trained to and are flying aircraft not designed to do the job of
cloud flying are going to become statistics furthermore proving our
beloveid sport is more dangerious as thought of before. I'm one of
those pilots that's in denial and think that my sport is as safe as the
next sport but looks at the stats and sees it aint so.
Gotta go to bed now it's a long drive to the glider port in the morn.
Happy flyin all!

[Eric Greenwell[_1_]]

wrote:
>> I'd love the ability to cross large blue areas, and I know it would be
>> glorious to pop out the side of a towering cumulus at 20,000 and glide.
> Chances are the only thing you'll be doing after entering a towering
> cumulus is looking for the rip cord after your beautiful 26 has come
> apart around you Eric. The last guy we know of that went IMC in a
> glider was quite rudly ejected from his 26 and he's a high time power
> pilot that's paid to fly IMC.

And I'm sure he'd quickly point out that inadvertent IMC near Vne
without a gyro running is a heck of a lot different that a planned,
stabilized entry into the bottom of a cloud at thermalling speed.

> Don't get me wrong I enjoyed getting my
> instrument rating and flying IFR, but I think glider pilots that are
> not trained to and are flying aircraft not designed to do the job of
> cloud flying are going to become statistics furthermore proving our
> beloveid sport is more dangerious as thought of before.

The way you've stated it, you are right. But...every year, people in the
UK and Europe do get that training and do fly in gliders that are
designed to do the job, and they don't even get instrument ratings. I'll
bet some of our USA pilots can get up to the same standard.


--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Bruce Greef]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>> I'd love the ability to cross large blue areas, and I know it would be
>>> glorious to pop out the side of a towering cumulus at 20,000 and glide.
>>
>> Chances are the only thing you'll be doing after entering a towering
>> cumulus is looking for the rip cord after your beautiful 26 has come
>> apart around you Eric. The last guy we know of that went IMC in a
>> glider was quite rudly ejected from his 26 and he's a high time power
>> pilot that's paid to fly IMC.
>
>
> And I'm sure he'd quickly point out that inadvertent IMC near Vne
> without a gyro running is a heck of a lot different that a planned,
> stabilized entry into the bottom of a cloud at thermalling speed.
>
> > Don't get me wrong I enjoyed getting my
>
>> instrument rating and flying IFR, but I think glider pilots that are
>> not trained to and are flying aircraft not designed to do the job of
>> cloud flying are going to become statistics furthermore proving our
>> beloveid sport is more dangerious as thought of before.
>
>
> The way you've stated it, you are right. But...every year, people in the
> UK and Europe do get that training and do fly in gliders that are
> designed to do the job, and they don't even get instrument ratings. I'll
> bet some of our USA pilots can get up to the same standard.
>
>
Hi Eric

Just my 2c worth.

I got to fly in the UK recently, at Lasham (which by the way was very welcoming
and helpful)
We took an aerotow to 2500" in a K21, at which point we were circling in a
little hole 400" above the general cloud base. A little while later we nipped in
under the 7/8 of what looked like spreadout and soared quite happily in gentle
lift under a "cloud street" - darker strip in the grey... occasionally passing
through tendrils of cloud hanging below. All very civilised and a wonderful
experience. I would not recomend trying the same with your average South African
highveld Cu-nim. (or USA mid west - or Australian outback...)

As with all things gliding, I think the answer about whether cloud flying is
safe is - It depends. Among other things it depends on the energy levels and
depth of the average cloud in the area you are flying in. As you commented the
training is a big issue - It also depends largely on how competent the pilot is
to fly IMC.

[Jack[_1_]]

wrote:
>>I'd love the ability to cross large blue areas, and I know it would be
>>glorious to pop out the side of a towering cumulus at 20,000 and glide.
>
> Chances are the only thing you'll be doing after entering a towering
> cumulus is looking for the rip cord after your beautiful 26 has come
> apart around you Eric.

The 20,000' idea sounds far too bold to me, assuming we're speaking of
the non-mountainous portions of the USA, but I could be wrong. This is
why we need real training -- ground and flight -- on the subject of
cloud flying, to understand what is reasonable in a given region, as
well as what is legal.

A nice ride of three or four thousand feet, from base to top, get out,
and cruise to the base of the next Cu sounds like great fun. Too much
cloud puts you in real danger of premature disassembly (and you thought
land-outs were annoying). What is too much Cu? That's the 64-dollar
question.

Cu(e) Judy Collins here, or Joni Mitchell:

"Rows and floes of angel hair
And ice cream castles in the air
And feather canyons everywhere
I've looked at clouds that way

"But now they only block the sun
They rain and snow on everyone
So many things I would have done
But clouds got in my way

"I've looked at clouds from both sides now
From up and down, and still somehow
It's clouds illusions I recall
I really don't know clouds at all


I leave it to those, perhaps from the UK and other places, who do this
regularly, to put guide numbers to cloud-flying scenarios that apply in
their legal cloud-flight context. Different regions have different
weather character, so numbers that might work at Hus Bos
<http://www.thesoaringcentre.co.uk/> may be bad advice in Hobbs.

You gotta realize, this is just a newby 1-26 guider from northern
IL talkin' here. If I could get that free Cu-ride, I could finally go
some place! But, realistically, my best chance to cover some ground
would probably be to crew for Jim Hard. Have you seen what he does with
Schweizer's little toy airplane, in Region Seven, without clouds?

Put this in your SeeYou or Strepla, 'cause it's rainin' outside, again:

<http://tinyurl.com/hddjd>

--
Jack

[bagmaker]

Isnt there lift above the CU in the form of a pressure wave? Not the big nim towers, just your average summer puff-top? I have had a great time ABOVE the smoke from large stubble fires here in OZ in air being displaced vertically by the rising smoke, surely if viewed like so, thermic cloud will eventually be seen as just a transition point to lighter lift going higher still. Wouldnt this justify the ability to fly through it?
Cloud flying is verboten here, too!

Bagger