Forget Dying; Is Soaring Dead?

[[email protected]]

Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
even than most U.S. regionals.

A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
social event for as long as I can remember.

The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
foresee a dropoff there, too.

True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
events?

What's going on?

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"

[Orion Kingman]

wrote:
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"

Fair enough, but what would you sugest to help the current
trend/situation?

Orion Kingman
DV8

[Bill Daniels]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"
>

Competition from the OLC?

Bill D

[BB]

I don't think the numbers bear any of this out -- though of course I'm
too lazy to go look them up right now to prove it.

My impression is that overall the number of pilots flying contests in
the US is stable or increasing. So is the number of classes and venues,
hence the occasional contest with small numbers. Yes, there were more
gliders at a nationals in the 1960s -- but there was only one
nationals; now we have 6! Why was Uvalde so empty? Perhaps because so
many standard class pilots had already flown sports at mifflin, 15
meter at Montague or 18 meter at Hobbs, or any number of high-class
regionals. The new classes give pilots more choices, which is a good
thing, at least for a pilot!

I see lots of new faces at each contest. The average age seems to be in
the low 50s exactly where it always has been. Competitive soaring is,
has been and probably always always will primarily draw middle aged men
with the money and time to pursue it. The "young blood" is in their
late 30s, which is fine, so long as they keep coming.

Contests with room means supply of contests is growing faster than
demand, not necessarily that demand is shrinking.

But of course all this is idle speculation. Chip; how about going
through the past contest results on the web and telling us how many
pilots actually did fly how many contests, both national and regional,
over the last five years?

John Cochrane BB

[Stewart Kissel]

If the percentage of sailplane pilots who race drops
from 5% of the total group to 4%...does this indicate
the sport is dying? Perhaps.

Racing, particularly in the non-handicapped groups
has always appealed to an energitic minority. Having
pilots excited about what part of the sport interests
them is certainly a good thing, but does racing drive
the sport? For instance the Open Class...how does
that category fit into the sport as a whole?

[Nigel Pocock]

At 19:24 26 August 2006, Bill Daniels wrote:
>
> wrote in message
oups.com...
>> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for
>>the U.S. Std.
>> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests.
>>This was apparently
>> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals,
>>and smaller
>> even than most U.S. regionals.

Must be a US thing
Lasham regionals in Uk 68 entries was on at the same
time as the open class nationals with 26 entrants (
mainly Nimbus3/4, ASH25 and ASW22)
The Standards 49
15m 36
18m 49 simultaniously with the club class 41
According to FAI stats UK has about 9000 glider pilots
and USA has far more. Is it travelling distance that
is the problem?
Nigel

[Mike[_8_]]

Sports Class National is very popular with an aging sailplane fleet
so...

Beginning with the Regionals - Drop the Sports Class and allow both a
FAI type Champ as well as a Handicapped Champ for each class flown.

National contest could be run the same way allowing both a FAI Champ
and a Handicapped Champ, this may boost attendence.

The Open Nationals had about 8 pilots this year.

Sports Class Nationals could be scored by class as well, evening out
the handicap a bit. There were about 54 pilots there this year.

Mike

Computerized scoring makes it pretty easy to do.
Orion Kingman wrote:
> wrote:
> > Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> > Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> > Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> > even than most U.S. regionals.
> >
> > A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> > from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> > deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> > social event for as long as I can remember.
> >
> > The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> > preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> > SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> > droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> > competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> > willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> > dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> > recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> > foresee a dropoff there, too.
> >
> > True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> > gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> > notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> > Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> > events?
> >
> > What's going on?
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > ASW 24 "JB"
>
> Fair enough, but what would you sugest to help the current
> trend/situation?
>
> Orion Kingman
> DV8

[Orion Kingman]

wrote:
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"

A few numbers to consider:

In 2003 there were 111 US Pilots registered for the OLC, 250 in 2005,
550 in 2005, and 660 this year.

On the 2003 Pilot ranking list there were 551 ranked pilots, 636 ranked
in 2004, 636 ranked in 2005, and 590 ranked in 2006. If a pilot
doesn't fly a contest for three years they are droped off of the list.

So the question presents its self: is soaring on the decline, or is it
competitive soaring? From the brief look that I took, its appears that
it is competitive soaring that is suffering. So how do we as a comunity
correct this trend? What is the UK comunity doing correctly to have
such high atendence numbers? Clearly the distance is a significant
issue; for a west-coaster to drive to Mifflin, or for a an east-coaster
to drive to Montague, can mean the difference in competing in the
contest.

This dialouge never has a magic cure, but it is good to keep it alive,
becuase it does keep us thinking about the future of our sport.

Orion Kingman
DV8

[Kilo Charlie]

As with most things I think that the reasons behind this issue falls
somewhere between John's "not to worry" thoughts and the idea that it may be
at least somewhat true but multifactorial.

One thing that I've noticed at contests recently is an increasing number of
pilots that have flexibility in their schedules. This may be because they
are retired, part time workers, run their own businesses (OK I know those
guys work hard too so don't flame me) or have found a way to live frugally
and opt to travel around the country flying when they like. One guy has
even taken advantage of cutbacks for pilots at a major airline by going to
more contests. I also don't have any numbers to back this up....just an
observation.

At the same time I've noted that many folks including a lot of racing
pilots, are either in the process of changing jobs and have little vacation
time available or are being asked to take on more and more responsibilities
at the jobs they currently hold. In an attempt to make the bottom lines at
companies improve, workers (at least in the US) are being squeezed. It also
makes for more folks being stressed. I've wondered if anyone has attempted
to quantitate this. That would be BB's field of expertise so would defer to
him.

So the final line is that we are seeing a larger number of the flexible
schedule folks show up at contests and fewer numbers of the others. That
should mean that the age of contest pilots, at least those at the nats
because its a farther drive generally, should be going up if many of the
"flexible" pilots are retired or semiretired. John disagreed with the
latter part and like I said I have no data either so who knows?

Personally I had 2 weeks available from May through August for vacation.
That meant that I could have chosen to spend it all in Uvalde or split it up
doing a bit of flying (Ely for me this summer) and another week getting
outta this Phoenix heat (Colorado). And even though I think that I have one
of the most understanding wives in the racing scene it would be stretching
it to ask for her to spend our entire vacation on a racing trip. I sure did
miss Uvalde when I had to follow those super days from afar though!

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[CLewis95]

A 2006 Sports Class REGIONAL rule change (see below) makes it necessary
for pilots to have a Pilot Ranking Score or have earned the FULL FAI
Siver Badge to qualify for competition. (This may be just a formallity
to many experienced XC pilots...but enough to keep them from competing)
Previously only participation in a formal XC soaring program was
required.

Does anyone know of any pilot who did not fly in their first Regional
contest due to this requirement? I have been concerned about the
effect this change.

Also....do you know of any pilots that did not compete due to the lack
of an installed ELT...in contests where one was required?

I wish I had gone to Uvalde!

Curt Lewis - 95
Genesis 2
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

Regional Sports Class
5.4 Pilot Qualifications and Requirements
5.4.1 Experience requirements
5.4.1.1 Each entrant shall meet one or more of the following
experience requirements:
5.4.1.1.1 Have a Pilot Ranking Score (Rule 5.2.1) greater than
zero.
5.4.1.1.2 Present evidence both of having completed a previous
National soaring contest and of recent cross-country soaring
experience.
5.4.1.1.3 † Present proof of having earned the FAI Silver Badge.


///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////

wrote:
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"

[Jeremy Zawodny]

wrote:
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?

Are you sure that contest attendance is related to the size of the
overall soaring population? Many folks "race" every weekend now using
OLC to compete with folks from around the country.

Jeremy

[[email protected]]

I have flown in two contests Avenal and Air Sailing Sports contest.
Both were a lot of fun and well attended. In region 11 our regional
contest this year was held at Ely NV and was not well attended which
was probably because of it location. It is also difficult to convince
most wives that crewing in the desert for a week is a good way to spend
a vacation.

I think handicapping the regional contests by class would encourage
pilots to attend who do not have the budget to compete with the latest
ship designs. I also agree that the rules for qualifying to attend a
regional or national contest make no sense. How does a pilot ranking
score greater than zero prove anything. Pilots with XC experience
should be allowed to attend any contest that has room for them.

CLewis95 wrote:
> A 2006 Sports Class REGIONAL rule change (see below) makes it necessary
> for pilots to have a Pilot Ranking Score or have earned the FULL FAI
> Siver Badge to qualify for competition. (This may be just a formallity
> to many experienced XC pilots...but enough to keep them from competing)
> Previously only participation in a formal XC soaring program was
> required.
>
> Does anyone know of any pilot who did not fly in their first Regional
> contest due to this requirement? I have been concerned about the
> effect this change.
>
> Also....do you know of any pilots that did not compete due to the lack
> of an installed ELT...in contests where one was required?
>
> I wish I had gone to Uvalde!
>
> Curt Lewis - 95
> Genesis 2
> //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> Regional Sports Class
> 5.4 Pilot Qualifications and Requirements
> 5.4.1 Experience requirements
> 5.4.1.1 Each entrant shall meet one or more of the following
> experience requirements:
> 5.4.1.1.1 Have a Pilot Ranking Score (Rule 5.2.1) greater than
> zero.
> 5.4.1.1.2 Present evidence both of having completed a previous
> National soaring contest and of recent cross-country soaring
> experience.
> 5.4.1.1.3 † Present proof of having earned the FAI Silver Badge.
>
>
> ///////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
>
> wrote:
> > Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> > Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> > Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> > even than most U.S. regionals.
> >
> > A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> > from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> > deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> > social event for as long as I can remember.
> >
> > The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> > preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> > SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> > droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> > competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> > willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> > dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> > recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> > foresee a dropoff there, too.
> >
> > True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> > gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> > notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> > Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> > events?
> >
> > What's going on?
> >
> > Chip Bearden
> > ASW 24 "JB"

[Tony[_1_]]

I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
conditions.

The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa. If the lift is
positive and cloudbase is above about 3000 AGL, im outta here.

I couldnt even buy a new gelcoat on your glider for what i have
invested in the sport. Basically the reason your contests are weakly
attended is because it costs too much to be competitive, and really
what is the point of competing if you cant be competitive.

To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
(Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?

[Jack[_1_]]

Tony wrote:
> I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
> strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
> guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
> myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
> especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
> conditions.
>
> The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
> this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
> on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
> Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
> and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
> together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
> glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa. If the lift is
> positive and cloudbase is above about 3000 AGL, im outta here.

[....]

> To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?

I do, but I'm not good enough. Maybe, by next year.

I think the 1-26 Association ought to open itself up to _all_ gliders
under approx. 1/25 performance -- 2-33's, your Cherokee II, everything.

That would benefit everyone who wants to compete in that
price/performance range. OLC is great but it's not the same as "being
there", so to speak.


Jack
#588

[Kilo Charlie]

Hey this is a great idea and one that just might get some folks interested
that wouldn't otherwise fly XC at all much less in contests. If it doesn't
get sanctioned by the SSA please keep us posted on how much interest you get
and if/when you hold the contest please report the results here! We need
more ideas like this.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix

[Terry[_2_]]

Who else wants to come?

================================================== ==========
What? No uber flugkomputer mit GPS? Sacrilege!!!!!!

If only it wasn't so far from Estrella, I'd be in. I wonder if Bruce or
Jason would let me take one of their 1-26s?

Last weekend, I flew around an hour in the 1-26 and never got near the
Grand Canyon or above 3000 feet AGL. I guess that would not qualify me
in the ASA racing group.

C'est la vie.

Terry C

[Graeme Cant]

Tony wrote:

> To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?

I do. But will you allow a Ka6? It was 30 odd when it was new forty
years and 3 coats of paint ago.

How far is Central Iowa from Bathurst New South Wales? Is the road OK
because the trailer's as old as the glider? :)

I wish I could be there!!! Go Tony!

GC

[Kilo Charlie]

"Terry" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Who else wants to come?
>
> ================================================== ==========
> What? No uber flugkomputer mit GPS? Sacrilege!!!!!!
>
> If only it wasn't so far from Estrella, I'd be in. I wonder if Bruce or
> Jason would let me take one of their 1-26s?
>
> Last weekend, I flew around an hour in the 1-26 and never got near the
> Grand Canyon or above 3000 feet AGL. I guess that would not qualify me
> in the ASA racing group.
>
> C'est la vie.
>
> Terry C

There are loads of excuses to not race but this contest pretty much does
away with them all. That's what's so great about the idea and it sounds
like it will be lots of fun.

Casey Lenox
KC
Phoenix
(Which BTW is where the ASA is based and yes we have had pilots race in a
1-26....ask Bob VonHellens!)

[Doug Hoffman]

Tony wrote:
> I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
> strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
> guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
> myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
> especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
> conditions.
>
> The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
> this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
> on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
> Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
> and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
> together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
> glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa.

Have you looked at an HP? *Lots* more performance for around $10K +/-.

My biggest problem with contests is mostly that they chew up a week of
time. If I were a college student or retired (I'm somewhere in between
right now) then that would not be an issue and you would likely see me
at multiple contests every year.

I used to race small sailboats and 2-3 day "weekend" regattas were more
the norm. I attended a lot of those. I realize that with gliders a
2-3 day format could be problematic due to weather uncertainties, at
least in many parts of the US. But that is the biggest blockade for
me. The new locator requirement does nothing to encourage me to take
off a week doing something my wife has zero interest in. The issue of
probably coming in last due to equipment and/or skill is not a
deterrent for me.

-Doug

[Tony[_1_]]

Jack - That is the point, you do not have to be "good enough" The idea
of the contest is to get people to fly cross country and have fun doing
it!

Jack wrote:
> Tony wrote:
> > I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
> > strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
> > guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
> > myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
> > especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
> > conditions.
> >
> > The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
> > this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
> > on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
> > Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
> > and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
> > together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
> > glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa. If the lift is
> > positive and cloudbase is above about 3000 AGL, im outta here.
>
> [....]
>
> > To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> > allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> > fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> > Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> > Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> > triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> > tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> > is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> > windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> > will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> > looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> > with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> > (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> > from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?
>
> I do, but I'm not good enough. Maybe, by next year.
>
> I think the 1-26 Association ought to open itself up to _all_ gliders
> under approx. 1/25 performance -- 2-33's, your Cherokee II, everything.
>
> That would benefit everyone who wants to compete in that
> price/performance range. OLC is great but it's not the same as "being
> there", so to speak.
>
>
> Jack
> #588

[Tony[_1_]]

Ka6 is just fine. Basically if it is wood and fabric, you can come.
Some of us love the smell of spruce and fir...

And if your trailer isnt up for the trip, just airline it over, we will
find a ship for you to fly! God knows there are plenty of qualifying
gliders around here that mostly just sit waiting for their weekly
saturday afternoon local flight ;)

Graeme Cant wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>
> > To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> > allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> > fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> > Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> > Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> > triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> > tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> > is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> > windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> > will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> > looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> > with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> > (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> > from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?
>
> I do. But will you allow a Ka6? It was 30 odd when it was new forty
> years and 3 coats of paint ago.
>
> How far is Central Iowa from Bathurst New South Wales? Is the road OK
> because the trailer's as old as the glider? :)
>
> I wish I could be there!!! Go Tony!
>
> GC

[P. Corbett]

Orion Kingman wrote:
> wrote:
>
>>Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
>>Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
>>Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
>>even than most U.S. regionals.
>>
>>A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
>>from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
>>deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
>>social event for as long as I can remember.
>>
>>The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
>>preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
>>SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
>>droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
>>competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
>>willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
>>dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
>>recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
>>foresee a dropoff there, too.
>>
>>True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
>>gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
>>notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
>>Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
>>events?
>>
>>What's going on?
>>
>>Chip Bearden
>>ASW 24 "JB"
>
>
> A few numbers to consider:
>
> In 2003 there were 111 US Pilots registered for the OLC, 250 in 2005,
> 550 in 2005, and 660 this year.
>
> On the 2003 Pilot ranking list there were 551 ranked pilots, 636 ranked
> in 2004, 636 ranked in 2005, and 590 ranked in 2006. If a pilot
> doesn't fly a contest for three years they are droped off of the list.
>
> So the question presents its self: is soaring on the decline, or is it
> competitive soaring? From the brief look that I took, its appears that
> it is competitive soaring that is suffering. So how do we as a comunity
> correct this trend? What is the UK comunity doing correctly to have
> such high atendence numbers? Clearly the distance is a significant
> issue; for a west-coaster to drive to Mifflin, or for a an east-coaster
> to drive to Montague, can mean the difference in competing in the
> contest.
>
> This dialouge never has a magic cure, but it is good to keep it alive,
> becuase it does keep us thinking about the future of our sport.
>
> Orion Kingman
> DV8
>
I wonder if some who might otherwise attend a contest are getting their
jollies by posting their flights to the OLC??

Paul
ZZ

[309]

Jack wrote:
>
> I think the 1-26 Association ought to open itself up to _all_ gliders
> under approx. 1/25 performance -- 2-33's, your Cherokee II, everything.
> Jack
> #588

Jack,

I'd much rather see the PW-5's open up their contest to our brother
antique flyers, and offer to fly the PW-5's around the course with the
spoilers half open. Or make all the plastic racers promise to fly with
their gear down all day...

I like the idea of brotherhood, but the 1-26 Association has THAT name
for a reason.

And FWIW, the 1-26 Championships and "local" contests have some
difficulty with participation, in many cases for similar reasons.

My excuses are work, family, time, distance and skill (lack thereof)
for not participating in the contests. Well I guess I left out the
element that most folks are griping about on this thread: money. That
too. I can't get the scheduled time off, and it's difficult getting
the wife's company to allow her to schedule the time off.

Kudos to Tony...I'd have an easier time getting there than Graeme, but
Iowa is still a big set of vacation days to trailer to for me...so I'll
be there in spirit (especiall the beer part).

-Pete
#309

[[email protected]]

Chip I think you meant to ask "Is Contest flying dead " .

Not if some effort is put into promoting contests and making them
interesting, inexpensive and especially for the younger folks new to
contest flying, easy to participate in .

At our club, Central Indiana Soaring we have established a "Club
Contest" that can take place every x/c flying day of the year at our
field . So far this season we have had 6 contest days and 10 pilots
have participated ( out of a total club membership of around 65 ) .
There is no cost to members, there are 2 classes ( Advanced and
Beginners ) and the rules are simple . The idea was not entirely ours ,
in fact we copied a lot of the rules from the Chicago Glider Club's
successful contest system. You do need a "sparkplug" type to do the
scoring and e-mail out the results after each contest day - We have DT
who does a great job there .

The contest makes for a lot of extra enjoyment and discussion between
the members, certainly improves x/c flying skills and I firmly believe
will lead to more participation at Regional contests in the future.

To attract more pilots to Regional and National contests they need to
be motivated to spend the time and money to do that successfully -
Local Club contests that become interesting to new pilots stimulate
that motivation.

My 2 cents worth .

Ron (ZA).

[Eric Greenwell[_1_]]

P. Corbett wrote:
> Orion Kingman wrote:

> I wonder if some who might otherwise attend a contest are getting their
> jollies by posting their flights to the OLC??

For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
get in the OLC.

While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.

I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
OLC score.

So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
that have raced wouldn't, either.

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[Wayne Paul]

Schreder sailplane reunion......?

This may be a bit of the subject; however, it has been the subject of a
thread in the Yahoo hp-gliders news group.
(http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hp-gliders). The hp-gliders group consists
of 300+ HP/RS sailplane builder/owners/enthusiasts.

Recently the owner of a HP-14T took his bird to Marfa, TX and had some great
flights. The presence of HP-14 precipitated Burt Compton's memories of
helping is father build a HP-11 (which is now owned by a club in Canada.)
Burt suggested the possibilities of holding a regatta of Schreder designed
sailplanes and suggested Marfa as the location.

This proposal had drawn a lot of interest. The choice of location has been
debated. Marfa is a long way for many. Living in Idaho it is only(?) 1400+
miles. However, for our friends from Eastern Canada, it is really a loooong
trip!

Many feel to get a good representation of the Schreder community will
require a couple of years lead time to schedule vacations, etc. (back to
the old time/money problem) One of the first thoughts that came across my
mind was; "wouldn't it be great to schedule this in conjunction with the SSA
convention." There are so many of you who have raced these birds in their
hay-day and could add so much to such a gathering. However, the thought of
dragging my HP-14 in its' trailer across the Rockies in the late
winter/early spring is not a pleasant thought.

If we are going to have such a gathering it will included a little
handicapped competition, technical forums, and stories from the past and
present.

There seems to be a lot of interest in HP/RS series and I am continually
amazed to see the superb quality of workmanship of birds that were once
raced and have been in storage for years. Many of these appear on the
market for below $10,000.

When I purchased my first HP there was very little information available on
the web. At the time I was working at Albertson College of Idaho and they
allowed me a little space on their website for personal use. Angie Schreder
sent me a packet of information that became the foundation of the site.
When the College's allotted space was filled everything was moved to
http://www.soaridaho.com/Schreder. Currently the site has archived almost
100 megs of HP/RS related information.

The traffic on the website and hp-gliders news group indicates that Soaring
is not dead. Could Schreder designs become another 1-26 type organization?
Dick sold over 700 kits.

Wayne
HP-14 N990 "6F"
http://www.soaridaho.com/photogallery/Mackay_2006

[[email protected]]

Tony wrote:

> Some of us love the smell of spruce and fir...
>

I was thinking of Sprucing up the cockpit of the Woodstock with some
Fur. Will that help with that stale urine and powerbar smell?

MM

[Graeme Cant]

wrote:
> Tony wrote:
>> Some of us love the smell of spruce and fir...
>>
> I was thinking of Sprucing up the cockpit of the Woodstock with some
> Fur. Will that help with that stale urine and powerbar smell?

I'd suggest a raccoon hat. Adds fur, keeps the sun off, goes well with
the spruce theme and could be used if the relief system blocks... :)

GC


>
> MM
>

[1-26 091]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> P. Corbett wrote:
> > Orion Kingman wrote:
>
> > I wonder if some who might otherwise attend a contest are getting their
> > jollies by posting their flights to the OLC??
>
> For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
> different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
> racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
> different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
> the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
> flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
> get in the OLC.
>
> While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
> exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
> really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
> country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.
>
> I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
> Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
> day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
> tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
> very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
> OLC score.
>
> So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
> was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
> that have raced wouldn't, either.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[1-26 091]

this year the 1-26 Assoc and World Class will be having their
Championships in Chilhowee Tenn the Last of April and first week in May
running seperate contests at the same site while combining many assets.

[[email protected]]

Tony wrote:
> I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
> strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
> guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
> myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
> especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
> conditions.
>
> The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
> this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
> on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
> Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
> and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
> together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
> glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa. If the lift is
> positive and cloudbase is above about 3000 AGL, im outta here.
>
> I couldnt even buy a new gelcoat on your glider for what i have
> invested in the sport. Basically the reason your contests are weakly
> attended is because it costs too much to be competitive, and really
> what is the point of competing if you cant be competitive.
>
> To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?

Yeh, got to say that no top flite racing pilot in the U.S. has ever
offered to purchase or even asked to use my Ka6E for any national
sports class racing event. Seems that the current handicap system and
sports class rules would make that an obvious choice for those guys
instead of the so expensive DuoDiscuses, Ventuses and ASW27s. But if
one is inclined to do so, that pilot wouldn't be at any disadvantage
with another Ka6E on the same grid because both fuselages would have
the same width!

[HoUdini]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> P. Corbett wrote:
> > Orion Kingman wrote:
>
> > I wonder if some who might otherwise attend a contest are getting their
> > jollies by posting their flights to the OLC??
>
> For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
> different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
> racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
> different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
> the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
> flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
> get in the OLC.
>
> While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
> exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
> really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
> country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.
>
> I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
> Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
> day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
> tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
> very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
> OLC score.
>
> So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
> was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
> that have raced wouldn't, either.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[HoUdini]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> P. Corbett wrote:
> > Orion Kingman wrote:
>
> > I wonder if some who might otherwise attend a contest are getting their
> > jollies by posting their flights to the OLC??
>
> For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
> different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
> racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
> different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
> the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
> flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
> get in the OLC.
>
> While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
> exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
> really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
> country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.
>
> I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
> Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
> day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
> tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
> very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
> OLC score.
>
> So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
> was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
> that have raced wouldn't, either.
>
> --
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[HoUdini]

As a pilot just getting interested in contest flying I found posting to
OLC to be an easy next step. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the
past newbee contest cannon fodder (like myself) is detouring away from
the "traditional" contest format. If newbees used to show up just to
stretch themselves, isn't OLC a good substitute?

If this is a trend, then why should it be resisted? Is there a way to
merge the two? Should OLC evolve into the scoring program for all
contests/badges? Perhaps after a few years of OLC, maybe I'll be more
interested in traditional contests...or will OLC/SeeYou evolve in that
same period of time and keep me captive?

Every day is a contest day to me and technology change tends to leave
the "traditionalists" behind. My bet is OLC will evolve faster than
traditional contests can respond to the challenge.

Folks, it's a real "game changer". How it will change us, both good
and bad, is still to be seen.

LT





Eric Greenwell wrote:
>
> For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
> different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
> racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
> different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
> the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
> flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
> get in the OLC.
>
> While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
> exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
> really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
> country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.
>
> I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
> Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
> day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
> tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
> very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
> OLC score.
>
> So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
> was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
> that have raced wouldn't, either.
>
> --

>
> www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> Operation"

[Eric Greenwell[_1_]]

HoUdini wrote:
> As a pilot just getting interested in contest flying I found posting to
> OLC to be an easy next step. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the
> past newbee contest cannon fodder (like myself) is detouring away from
> the "traditional" contest format. If newbees used to show up just to
> stretch themselves, isn't OLC a good substitute?

No, it's not a good substitute for racing, because flying together on
the same task is quite a different experience, and you'll learn to fly
better and faster sooner than flying alone, even if you compare yourself
to other pilots via the OLC. I think it is/might be a good substitute
for Badges (and possibly record attempts, at least at the State level),
though, and maybe it's an easier way to get pilots flying for Badges and
entering races.

> If this is a trend, then why should it be resisted? Is there a way to
> merge the two? Should OLC evolve into the scoring program for all
> contests/badges? Perhaps after a few years of OLC, maybe I'll be more
> interested in traditional contests...or will OLC/SeeYou evolve in that
> same period of time and keep me captive?

Spend a couple days working or spectating at a contest soon, and see
what I mean about the differences. It's definitely not an either/or
choice: you can do and enjoy both, just as there are pilots that don't
do either because they don't enjoy raceing or the OLC (I know, hard to
imagine)!

--
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
Operation"

[jb92563]

Hey Tony,

Thats a great idea but to make it even more interesting, make it a
poker run where you have to take a photo of your target turn
point/landmark to get a a pair of cards, and you can get as many tp's
as you like to improve your odds of a good hand.......that way you have
some luck & some skill in the mix and potentially makes everyone the
winner.....especially those with long telephoto lenses and open
cockpits. ;-)

I'm the potential new contest pilot who after a just a bit of XC
experience will go to the sport class events in my HP-11. I can't
justify spending over 10k right now and only have 2 weeks of vacation a
year for these things, although plenty of weekends are possible so I'll
be going to the nearby contests for a start, perhaps as far away as 500
miles that combine with long weekend holidays and vacation leave.

Traditionally Europeans get much more holidays and US people get much
less and if you have a family, you'd be lucky to get 1 week at the
glider event of your choice.

The older pilots likely get more holidays and have less family
obligations so they have more time to spend, although they might not
like the longer drives.

Ray

Tony wrote:
> I dont think that even handicapping will help much. On a medium to
> strong day, a hotshot in his fiberglass ship will outrun all the lower
> guys even with handicapping. The only time a low performance guy like
> myself will win is on the weak days. Guess what, soaring contests,
> especially nationals are not usually held at places with weak
> conditions.
>
> The nuts and bolts of it (in my case at least) is that I was lured into
> this great sport because I was told it was cheap. And im going to hang
> on to that dream for as long as i can. Currently I am the most active
> Cross Country pilot in Iowa, Commercial and CFIG, and own a Cherokee II
> and enclosed trailer with less than 10,000 dollars invested all
> together. Thats right folks, a college kid with a 23:1 wood and fabric
> glider is the most active cross country pilot in Iowa. If the lift is
> positive and cloudbase is above about 3000 AGL, im outta here.
>
> I couldnt even buy a new gelcoat on your glider for what i have
> invested in the sport. Basically the reason your contests are weakly
> attended is because it costs too much to be competitive, and really
> what is the point of competing if you cant be competitive.
>
> To fix this, I am organizing a contest. Only "crappy" gliders will be
> allowed. Im thinking capping the L/D at something like 28. No
> fiberglass, no water, no GPS or cambridge glide computer thingymabobs.
> Pellet Varios are fine, Total Energy if you want to get high tech.
> Basically you, your glider, a sectional and a task. We will do
> triangles only, designed to make it back to the airport so that we can
> tell lies and drink beer into the evening. First guy to make it back
> is the first guy on the list to retrieve land outs, and so on. If its
> windy, the only task will be to stay upwind of the airport. No score
> will be kept, except the days winner will have to buy beer. So we are
> looking at next spring/summer sometime, in Central Iowa. So far Im in
> with my Cherokee, Matt Michael will probably compete with his Woodstock
> (Which has done 400 km Hilton Cup Triangle in IOWA!) and a few others
> from the upper midwest. Who else wants to come?

[Tony[_1_]]

Great Idea Ray, I will add to my mental list of tasks. Its looking
like I have created quite a deal of interest with this. I will be
moving on to the next leve as far as organizing something and will
start a new thread here on RAS when I know more. Keep throwing out
ideas and let me know if you can attend! I am thinking about late May
or Early June. That time of the year the soaring here is usually
pretty good, plus you can land nearly anywhere. The fields do not have
tall crops in them until late June, so every direction you look are
huge long runways with roads next to them (1 mile squares to the
horizon) and very friendly farmers who are interested in learning more
about the sport.

Another issue that has been pointed out to me is that there are an
inordinate number of non roadworthy glider trailers scattered around
the midwest. If we accomplish nothing else we will at least get these
relics back on the road where they belong!

Tony Condon,
Organizer, 1st Midwest Glider Trailer Rally

[Frank Whiteley]

The OLC is not a real substitute for racing, but I would like to see a
glider type filter, just to see how others flying the same make/model
are doing.

Frank Whiteley

HoUdini wrote:
> As a pilot just getting interested in contest flying I found posting to
> OLC to be an easy next step. I wouldn't be surprised if much of the
> past newbee contest cannon fodder (like myself) is detouring away from
> the "traditional" contest format. If newbees used to show up just to
> stretch themselves, isn't OLC a good substitute?
>
> If this is a trend, then why should it be resisted? Is there a way to
> merge the two? Should OLC evolve into the scoring program for all
> contests/badges? Perhaps after a few years of OLC, maybe I'll be more
> interested in traditional contests...or will OLC/SeeYou evolve in that
> same period of time and keep me captive?
>
> Every day is a contest day to me and technology change tends to leave
> the "traditionalists" behind. My bet is OLC will evolve faster than
> traditional contests can respond to the challenge.
>
> Folks, it's a real "game changer". How it will change us, both good
> and bad, is still to be seen.
>
> LT
>
>
>
>
>
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >
> > For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it "racing") and the OLC are such
> > different experiences, one can not subsitute for the other. In the air,
> > racing with other gliders, especially on assigned tasks, is quite
> > different from flying by myself. There is also the ground side, with all
> > the competitors gathered in one place at the same time for the race,
> > flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience that you don't
> > get in the OLC.
> >
> > While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting, it's not
> > exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting, but not exciting. I
> > really like to see what others are doing and how differet areas of the
> > country and the world work for soaring pilots, so I do follow the postings.
> >
> > I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post all my flights.
> > Serious competition would involve carefully planning a course for each
> > day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines of Badge and record
> > tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the experience is still
> > very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights to optimize my
> > OLC score.
> >
> > So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane might think the OLC
> > was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm guessing most pilots
> > that have raced wouldn't, either.
> >
> > --
>
> >
> > www.motorglider.org - Download "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane
> > Operation"

[SAM 303a]

doing my part--
I promise to fly in the regional to be held next year in Uvalde/Castroville
if it includes sports class.
I left a contest early a few years ago to get home for the birth of my
daughter (made it with 2 hours to spare!) and now she's old enough, and
Uvalde is close enough, for me to return to competition.

The club I belong to has been doing a lot to support XC flight and I think
we've got 3 people ready to join the ranks of competitive pilots. It's
becoming almost routine for the "new xc pilots" class to turn in 300k
flights in Russia's and PW5's. Next week is our second annual XC Camp and
we're all expecting multiple diamond distance, diamond goal, and personal
best flights. A bunch of guys also went up and joined the Boulder gang in
Dalhart a few weeks ago.
The Austin club had a kick-a$$ XC week recently--maybe one of them will do a
little crowing about their flights.
The other Houston club operated out of Uvalde for a week recently and had
some great flights too.

No, the rumours of the demise of soaring are premature. There's a lot going
on in my neck of the woods. Some of it may translate into greater
participation in sanctioned contests.



> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Only 21 planes on the grid at storied Uvalde, TX for the U.S. Std.
> Class Nationals, even with three non-U.S. guests. This was apparently
> Uvalde's smallest contest of any kind, including regionals, and smaller
> even than most U.S. regionals.
>
> A "get your entries in while they're still available!" posting today
> from the folks at New Castle, VA...6+ weeks after the preferential
> deadline for what has been an oversubscribed contest and "must attend"
> social event for as long as I can remember.
>
> The only U.S. contest I know of where seeding still matters (or
> preferential deadline, for that matter) is the spring kickoff in Perry,
> SC, where pilots crazed from a long winter of inactivity still flock in
> droves, apparently not having gotten the word that soaring, or at least
> competitive soaring--whose adherents have traditionally been more
> willing to expend the vast sums needed for the latest equipment--is
> dead. OK, maybe Mifflin, PA, but with this renowned venue being more
> recently notorious for uncertain weather, it's not impossible to
> foresee a dropoff there, too.
>
> True, entry fees are up a bit. And so (not uncoincidentally) are
> gasoline prices. And our core competitive pilot base continues to age,
> notwithstanding wins this year by "junior" masters Liz Schwenkler and
> Chris Saunders. But is that enough to explain these two startling
> events?
>
> What's going on?
>
> Chip Bearden
> ASW 24 "JB"
>

[Jack[_1_]]

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> The OLC is not a real substitute for racing, but I would like to see a
> glider type filter, just to see how others flying the same make/model
> are doing.

Ditto!


Jack

[Stewart Kissel]

I agree with Frank...to some degree...the OLC is not
racing...

1.) You don't drive 1, 2, 3 days to a location
2.) You don't sit in the rain for 1, 2, 3, 4 days(see
most recent race results)
3.) Your parachute may not have been repacked in the
last year, heaven forebid.
4.) You may not have to shanghai a crew for a week
at some garden spot of the western US.
5.) You may not have to burn up all your vacation
time for one event.
6.) You don't get to spend years in the bottom of
the pack.

Wait a minute...this is not diatribe on anti-racing...racers
are some of the most enthusiastic of our sport, they
are the ones who the manufacturers create new gliders
for...they are to be admired for their dedication and
zeal. But there is a reason that 95% of us do not
race.

The OLC has really been able to help many of us sate
our competitive urge without the sacrifice required
of traditional racing. We can fly on good days, we
can compare our tracks to the hot pilots who also fly
on the those days...how fast interthermal, how often
stopping and for how long, where did they find the
best lift, etc, etc. We can use the OLC as the gateway
to organized racing, for those who desire that route.
And so far the OLC has resisted that all-so-prevalant
glider disease of trying to make things more complex.

So is it a substitute for racing....heck no.




At 15:18 29 August 2006, Frank Whiteley wrote:
>The OLC is not a real substitute for racing, but I
>would like to see a
>glider type filter, just to see how others flying the
>same make/model
>are doing.
>
>Frank Whiteley
>
>HoUdini wrote:
>> As a pilot just getting interested in contest flying
>>I found posting to
>> OLC to be an easy next step. I wouldn't be surprised
>>if much of the
>> past newbee contest cannon fodder (like myself) is
>>detouring away from
>> the 'traditional' contest format. If newbees used
>>to show up just to
>> stretch themselves, isn't OLC a good substitute?
>>
>> If this is a trend, then why should it be resisted?
>> Is there a way to
>> merge the two? Should OLC evolve into the scoring
>>program for all
>> contests/badges? Perhaps after a few years of OLC,
>>maybe I'll be more
>> interested in traditional contests...or will OLC/SeeYou
>>evolve in that
>> same period of time and keep me captive?
>>
>> Every day is a contest day to me and technology change
>>tends to leave
>> the 'traditionalists' behind. My bet is OLC will
>>evolve faster than
>> traditional contests can respond to the challenge.
>>
>> Folks, it's a real 'game changer'. How it will change
>>us, both good
>> and bad, is still to be seen.
>>
>> LT
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> >
>> > For me - no. Contest flying (lets call it 'racing')
>>>and the OLC are such
>> > different experiences, one can not subsitute for
>>>the other. In the air,
>> > racing with other gliders, especially on assigned
>>>tasks, is quite
>> > different from flying by myself. There is also the
>>>ground side, with all
>> > the competitors gathered in one place at the same
>>>time for the race,
>> > flying the same tasks, so you have a shared experience
>>>that you don't
>> > get in the OLC.
>> >
>> > While the competition aspects of the OLC are interesting,
>>>it's not
>> > exciting like a race, at least for me; interesting,
>>>but not exciting. I
>> > really like to see what others are doing and how
>>>differet areas of the
>> > country and the world work for soaring pilots, so
>>>I do follow the postings.
>> >
>> > I don't seriously compete in the OLC, but I do post
>>>all my flights.
>> > Serious competition would involve carefully planning
>>>a course for each
>> > day to best fit the OLC task rules, along the lines
>>>of Badge and record
>> > tasking. While I enjoy these kinds of flights, the
>>>experience is still
>> > very different than a race, and I don't plan my flights
>>>to optimize my
>> > OLC score.
>> >
>> > So, perhaps someone that's never raced a sailplane
>>>might think the OLC
>> > was a substitute for racing, but I don't, and I'm
>>>guessing most pilots
>> > that have raced wouldn't, either.
>> >
>> > --
>>
>> >
>> > www.motorglider.org - Download 'A Guide to Self-launching
>>>Sailplane
>> > Operation'
>
>

[Papa3]

wrote:
> Chip I think you meant to ask "Is Contest flying dead " .
>
> Not if some effort is put into promoting contests and making them
> interesting, inexpensive and especially for the younger folks new to
> contest flying, easy to participate in .
>
> >
> My 2 cents worth .
>
> Ron (ZA).

I agree. I've been running the Governor's Cup in Region II for (gasp)
10 years as of this season. In each of the last 5 years we've had
anywhere from 25 to 45 participants, about the same as a well-attended
regional. It's a middle ground between a regional (everyone at the
same airport flying the same task) and the OLC (nobody at the same
airport flying anywhere). The former has its drawbacks in terms of
cost, logistics, etc. while the latter is not really a competition in
the sense that you can't compare a flight in the California mountains
with a flight in eastern Ohio.

Competitions like the Governor's Cup which require folks to fly in the
same general area on a racing task give you a chance to get some sense
of how you stack up against other pilots in a (reasonably) realistic
racing setting. By picking a task area that includes several
gliderports, it's possible to create either assigned tasks, MATS, or
AATs which are fair to everyone. Looking at a map, I can see many
places in the world where this is possible - the UK and Germany just
for instance; any place that has a reasonable density of gliding sites
will work. All it takes is a few clubs to get together and set up
standard tasks that can be accessed from each of the respective
airfields.

So, it may be that the fully centralized contest appeals to a limited
number of people, while the completely decentralized contest may not be
"racing" in the traditional sense. But, there is certainly a middle
ground that deserves to be further explored and promoted.

http://home.netcom.com/~pappa3/

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

[[email protected]]

I agree with Erik: the Governor's Cup and similar competitions are a
middle ground between traditional centralized (i.e., one location)
contests and the OLC. In one sense, they're the best of both worlds:
more pilots fly the course on any given day precisely because they
don't have to meet in some common location but can launch from their
own gliderports. Yet, though the courses are assigned area tasks with a
wide range of distances, everyone flies in roughly the same geography,
unlike the OLC.

It's the next best thing to the head-to-head competition many of us
enjoy at the regional and national level. And it's excellent practice
for those, getting us out on course in the kind of less-than-perfect
weather in which contests are often won or lost, albeit at the price of
the occasional landout (although, since most of the G Cup turnpoints
are active glider operations offering a tow, falling down part way
around is sometimes no more traumatic--ignoring the scoring
implications--than pulling into a gas station to fill up the family
car).

But given the title of my original posting, I'll close by noting that
Governor's Cup participation this year looks to be down at least 25%
from last year in number of pilots (from nearly 50 in 2005 to the low
30s this year). Issues cited by others such as increasing numbers of
contests vying for the same fixed number of pilots and the long
distances and vacation time demanded by, say, a nationals on the other
side of the country don't seem to apply here. Soaring, or at least
competitive soaring--would anyone have responded to my posting if I'd
more narrowly defined my subject? :) --does seem to be in rapid
decline.

Chip Bearden
ASW 24 "JB"