NATCA Going Down in Flames

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Um. by not having controllers sleeping? If they want to sleep they
> > should go home. Its more conducive to sleep anyway.
> >
> > Turn it around, how does it impact safety by not letting them take naps?
> >
>
> Letting them nap while on break makes it less likely they'll be drowsy while
> on position. Is being drowsy while on position more safe or less safe?

I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
work shifts.

If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 20:35:10 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> I would argue that more professional dress inspires more professional
>> behavior. As an example, I'd point to the NYC "graffitti" cleanup
>> under Guiliani, and the corresponding crime rate drops.
>
>I think this is oranges and grapefruit, and an example of selective
>data. Guiliani did many other things at the same time, and it may well
>be that it was those other things that reduced crime. What crime in ATC
>are you aiming to reduce?
>
>> Turn it around, how does it impact safety by not letting them take naps?
>
>Studies have shown that napping improves performance after the nap. (In

They are the mythical "Power Naps" which were hyped for a while. This
is the first I've heard them mentioned in several years..

They sure didn't include people like me in that study. I do not wake
quickly whether from a good night's sleep or a nap. In the morning I
roll out of bed into the "praying position" and then with the aid of
the bed and wall, work myself into a standing position. After a nap I
roll off the couch onto the floor, then climb into the praying
position with the aid of the couch.

I and others like me are a hazard to ourselves and those around us for
an hour or so after waking and we are a long way from being unique.

>some political jobs, it arguably improves performance during the nap. :)
> It is my understanding that air traffic control is a stressful job,
>and that's one of the reasons scope time is limited. Anything that
>would improve alertness while at the scope would be good. Naps do that
>with no down side.

For *some* they do and some they don't. I'd sure hate to have to
depend on making any decisions of import for an hour or so after the
nap. Some can wake quickly when necessary, but then pay for it later
with a severe hit to performance, poor sleep patterns, or even
attitude.

For the mid shift nap to be safe you'd need to test every single
controller to see how they handled them under varying conditions.
You'd probably find about a 1/4 to a 1/3 of them did not do well for
some period after the nap.


>
>Jose
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Emily[_1_]]

bdl wrote:
>
>> Studies have shown that napping improves performance after the nap.
>
> In the article that I read, the FAA said that the napping had a
> detrimental affect on performance. It meant the controllers were
> groggy when returning to the scope.
>
> So maybe the FAA has their own study.

From what I've read, short naps are ok, but anything longer than 15-20
minutes is detrimental.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
> developed and implemented something similar.

What does Boeing or LocMart have that is better or more modern than
STARS (which is being deployed now)?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Jose[_1_]]

> Getting dressed in the morning (just like I
> would with any commute) improves my performance during the day. I get
> more things done.

When you're dressed, you can go out without any additional doings. IN a
bathrobe, going to the store (for example) requires more doing, so it
might be put off. In that sense, I agree, one can be more productive
dressed than nude.

However, we're talking about shorts, not bathrobe. Do you find that,
WHEN you get dressed, that your performance improves with a higher
standard of dress (once you are above the standard required to go to the
store)? Do you work better in a tie?

> Workers who feel part of the same team should work better
> than workers who don't.

Agreed. With rules like this, do you think the controllers feel like
they're on the same team as the FAA (who is making the rules)?

> I would maintain that everybody operating to a
> minimum standard would enhance that team.

Yes, key word "operating". I maintain that shorts do not affect how one
controls traffic. I would allow that a captain's uniform as opposed
to shorts may help for a corporate pilot, who is interfacing with the
public (the executives taking the ride), but air traffic control does
not have this kind of interface with their charges.

> Are you saying that ATC as an organization has no room for any
> improvement?

No. I'm saying dress is probably not high on the list.

> But if the airline said [pilots] shouldn't
> [take naps] as part of their operating
> procedures you would agree that that would be ok right?

I suspect it would not be a good rule, especially for long flights.

> Or do you think the pilots should be able
> to set their own operating procedures
> for their particular flight?

I did not suggest this for ATC, why do you suggest that I suggest this
for pilots?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Trevor]

Here is a list of newer Air Traffic Control systems. I hope this is
helpful.

The state of the art for TRACONs and RAPCONS is STARS (Standalone TRACON
Automation Replacement System). The prime contractor for the STARS program
is Raytheon, and it is now being deployed to major TRACONS around the
country. (It is already online at the new Boston TRACON and major airports
like Philadelphia, etc). This program has been much delayed and reworked,
after numerous problems, such as ignoring controllers human interface
concerns (early data block windows covered up radar information behind
them) and controllers didn't like the standard QWERTY keyboards. (too easy
to learn?) for some reason. 10 years later, this is now the TRACON system
of the future.

ARTCCs have been upgraded as well. (Acronym?) I believe the prime
contractor is/was Lockheed Martin and it used a lot of Sun Microsystems
hardware. Even before the upgrades were underway, the ASD or 'Ollie"
screen came about just to replace the aging and failing green screens from
ARTS. The ASD was kind of a bootleg program that was more grassroutes than
officially sanctioned. .

DSR - (Display System Replacment) - replaces old ARTCC displays with new
Sony high resolution color displays. Superimposes NexRad weather on
displays, modern strip printers, etc. .

ATOP - (advanced technologies and oceanic procedures) Automates manual
oceanic airspace practices. Deployed at oceanic ARTCCs, such as New York,
Boston, Anchorage, Oakland. Lockheed Martin is the prime contractor and
calls it Ocean 21 .

HOCSR (Host and Oceanic Computer System Replacement). The host computers
(at the FAA command center across the street from Dulles airport in
Herndon) have had an upgrade program too, it is managed by Lockheed Martin:

ASDE-X (Airport Surface Detection Equipment - the X is the latest version)
is the next generation ground radar, used in airports with issues with
taxiing (usually in bad visibility). At these airports, pilots are asked
to leave Mode C on when on the ground. KPVD was one of the first airports
to get this, as a result of the near disaster when a US Airways flight was
repeatedly and angrily cleared for takeoff by a controller with an attitude
(pilot rejected) after a United jet got lost in fog and had reentered the
runway.

(D-BRITE ) FAA Digital Brite Radar Indicator Tower Equipment Program.
Newer version of BRITE screens, which provide satellite towers with a basic
radar screen for limited use. I believe this is going away.

Small Tower Radar Display (Lockheed Martin) For some airports that didn't
have D-BRITE.

STARS LITE (STARS Local Integrated Tower Equipment) Radar screens for
satellite towers.

ARTS IE Newer system for VFR towers that aren't connected to a TRACON.
Receive radar information from centers, using ARSR or ASR Radar data.

TARDIS (Terminal Automated Radar Display and Information System) This is
an interesting one. A sort of bootleg cheaper radar display for satellite
towers. It hasn't been certified and there are no plans to do so. The FAA
brass wasn't too pleased that TARDIS was spreading (too cheap, quick to be
implemented, and it worked!), but influential congress people were
demanding that it be deployed towers that didn't have funds to get another
radar display. Should be replaced by STARS LITE, which is certified.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Ok an example that was probably too far afield. Are you suggesting
> that the beautifcation projects had no impact for the better on the
> city?

I think the beautification projects had no impact on the traffic
problems plaguing the city. They had no impact on bridge maintanance.
They had no impact on water quality. They had no impact on corruption.

They made the city prettier, in some places, by some people's opinions.
Maybe this increased tourism, or encouraged businesses to stay rather
than leave. It might have had an effect on rents.

> What sort of nap? Length of nap? Location of nap? How much napping
> per time on shift? Whas the study specific to the ATC function?
> Please provide the data. If its true that napping will help our
> controllers, then the FAA should enforce naps during break times.
> Provide cots and blankies and teddy bears.

I don't have the paper in front of me. I read about it some time ago;
the context was office and management jobs, computer programming, stuff
like that. Short naps were sufficient, but not too short. (something
like 30 minutes, IIRC)

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> In the article that I read, the FAA said that the napping had a
> detrimental affect on performance. It meant the controllers were
> groggy when returning to the scope.
>
> So maybe the FAA has their own study.

If they do, I'm unaware of it. However, length of nap was important, as
well as when (and how) they were woken up. Being woken up in some
phases of sleep is better than others.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> They sure didn't include people like me in that study. I do not wake
> quickly whether from a good night's sleep or a nap.

Would you choose to take a nap? There is some self selection involved too.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
> turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
> doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
> work shifts.
>

No, they're not working doctors hours. If they were working doctors hours
they'd probably be provided beds for naps like doctors are.

I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two evening
shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.


>
> If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.
>

Agreed. What solution would you recommend? Allow naps while on break?
Send drowsy employees home on leave? Fire them?

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>
> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
> developed and implemented something similar.
>

What have they developed and deployed? I know Lockheed Martin built Common
ARTS under an FAA contract, and I'm aware that Boeing has proposed new
systems but I'm unaware of anything they've got operating in the field.
:

>
> You may be correct about the ultimate cost, but initially the
> contractor would have to propose something reasonably priced to win
> the bidding competition.
>

Why would privatization require any new equipment?

[Larry Dighera]

On Tue, 12 Sep 2006 21:36:24 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>:

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
>> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
>> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
>> developed and implemented something similar.
>
>What does Boeing or LocMart have that is better or more modern than
>STARS (which is being deployed now)?

Bob, I don't have a specific answer to your question, as I don't claim
to be familiar with STARS nor Boeing/LocMart ATC systems.

But, with the information available here:
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.ifr/browse_frm/thread/e67f2ab2d005e8b/810c5507efe7687a?lnk=st&q=&rnum=1&hl=en#810c5507efe7687a
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/4f1862a981125f4a/d7f2c064f4593ed8?lnk=st&q=&rnum=3&hl=en#d7f2c064f4593ed8
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/efa620dcc7c9bdef/cf21c48943be68c0?lnk=st&q=&rnum=4&hl=en#cf21c48943be68c0
http://groups.google.com/group/rec.aviation.piloting/browse_frm/thread/9beda7449e188a86/5468a4edd7c06ebd?lnk=st&q=&rnum=5&hl=en#5468a4edd7c06ebd
You may find the answer.

Is STARS space-based?

[bdl]

Jose wrote:
> However, we're talking about shorts, not bathrobe. Do you find that,
> WHEN you get dressed, that your performance improves with a higher
> standard of dress (once you are above the standard required to go to the
> store)? Do you work better in a tie?

I work more professionally. Personally, I find that when I'm working
with others that care about their appearance I find that we are more
productive. Professional is professional. Whether its in writing,
dress, mannerisms, or the voice on the radio.

And we aren't talking about a requirement for suit and tie. We're
talking about a dress code that (sometimes referred to as "business
casual") that probably 90% of the white-collar workforce uses. The
controllers want to be able to conform to the "beach bum" standard.
(Or at least their union does)

> Agreed. With rules like this, do you think the controllers feel like
> they're on the same team as the FAA (who is making the rules)?

I don't care if they think they are on the same team as the FAA. I
care if they think they are on the same team as their co-controllers.
FAA sets the standards as management. They should deal with it.

> Yes, key word "operating". I maintain that shorts do not affect how one
> controls traffic.

The FAA (who's setting the standards) disagrees. As do I.

> No. I'm saying dress is probably not high on the list.

And I'm saying that even things down on the list can help improve
things that are higher on the list. Like say forcing people who can't
conform to a simple dress code (anti-authority) to leave the
organzation or change their ways and be more team like. You see the
poor controllers that can't wear shorts. I see anti-authority
behavior. Something I seem to remember reading about in the AIM.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two evening
> shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
> That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
> juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
> natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
> closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
> about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

Thanks. Interesting scheduling. Whats the length of a shift and break
time? Is it standardized across all facilities?

> > If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.
> >
>
> Agreed. What solution would you recommend? Allow naps while on break?
> Send drowsy employees home on leave? Fire them?

I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work. Utilizing the
sick policy if they don't. Allowing naps, means that a controller might
be more willing to party hearty the night before, since they know they
can just take a nap during their breaks. If that option isn't
available to them, maybe they'll be more accommodating to their
required sleep schedule.

[bdl]

Jose wrote:
> > In the article that I read, the FAA said that the napping had a
> > detrimental affect on performance. It meant the controllers were
> > groggy when returning to the scope.
> >
> > So maybe the FAA has their own study.
>
> If they do, I'm unaware of it. However, length of nap was important, as
> well as when (and how) they were woken up. Being woken up in some
> phases of sleep is better than others.

So perhaps in a on-demand facility (where a terrorist incident might
require ATC to perform a lot of functions at a moments notice) is the
wrong place to be taking a nap where you might not be at peak
proficiency if your in the wrong phase of sleep.

Brian

[bdl]

Jose wrote:
> I think the beautification projects had no impact on the traffic
> problems plaguing the city. They had no impact on bridge maintanance.
> They had no impact on water quality. They had no impact on corruption.
>
> They made the city prettier, in some places, by some people's opinions.
> Maybe this increased tourism, or encouraged businesses to stay rather
> than leave. It might have had an effect on rents.

Hmm. Might it have increased taxe revenue too? Thereby allowing more
bridge maintenance? How about those bridge maintenance crews didn't
have to spend as much time working around graffitti? Perhaps they took
more pride in their work? Gave that extra 10%? Made them feel more
professional? That their work wasn't just trashed to no avail by the
next street gang?

But now we're heading off-topic....

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I work more professionally. Personally, I find that when I'm working
> with others that care about their appearance I find that we are more
> productive. Professional is professional. Whether its in writing,
> dress, mannerisms, or the voice on the radio.
>

What work do you do on the radio?

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> What work do you do on the radio?

I don't. I was alluding to controllers.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Thanks. Interesting scheduling. Whats the length of a shift and break
> time? Is it standardized across all facilities?
>

Eight hour shifts, mimumum of eight hours off between shifts. Those are
national standards.


>
> I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work.
>

What if they do and they're drowsy anyway?


>
> Utilizing the sick policy if they don't.
>

That's not permitted.


>
> Allowing naps, means that a controller might
> be more willing to party hearty the night before, since they know they
> can just take a nap during their breaks. If that option isn't
> available to them, maybe they'll be more accommodating to their
> required sleep schedule.
>

Maybe. But what is the problem with napping while on a break anyway?

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> So perhaps in a on-demand facility (where a terrorist incident might
> require ATC to perform a lot of functions at a moments notice) is the
> wrong place to be taking a nap where you might not be at peak
> proficiency if your in the wrong phase of sleep.
>

You're describing controllers working a position. We're not talking about
them. We're talking about controllers napping while on a break so that they
may be alert when they return to work a position.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> I don't. I was alluding to controllers.
>

So it's just a guess on your part. It's not on mine. I do work on the
radio. I am a controller. I find I perform better when I'm comfortable and
I'm more comfortable working in a glass box on a sunny summer day when I'm
wearing a nice pair of shorts.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> > I would suggest they get sleep before coming into work.

> What if they do and they're drowsy anyway?

What is the penalty for showing up for your shift incapacitated?

> > Utilizing the sick policy if they don't.
> >
>
> That's not permitted.

Really? What constitutes sick then? Do you have to have a doctor's
note? Does a headache count? From articles I read, NY controllers
were using the sick policy to a great extent so obviously some people
are incapacitated enough to not show up for their shift.

> Maybe. But what is the problem with napping while on a break anyway?

The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> So it's just a guess on your part. It's not on mine. I do work on the
> radio. I am a controller. I find I perform better when I'm comfortable and
> I'm more comfortable working in a glass box on a sunny summer day when I'm
> wearing a nice pair of shorts.

Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> What is the penalty for showing up for your shift incapacitated?
>

Unrelated to the topic.


>
> Really?
>

Really.


>
> The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.
>

True, but not an answer to the question.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Really.

You didn't answer the second part. What does constitute sick?

> > The controlling authority (now) says its forbidden.
> >
>
> True, but not an answer to the question.

Yes it is.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.
>

It's not broken, it's just not up to the task. Should we spend your tax
dollars to upgrade it so that controllers can be comfortable and efficient
while wearing pants or should we just allow them to dress comfortably under
the present conditions?

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> You didn't answer the second part. What does constitute sick?
>

Did I really need to? You don't understand the word "sick"?


>
> Yes it is.
>

No it isn't. An answer would be the reason for the new policy.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> > Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.
> >
>
> It's not broken, it's just not up to the task. Should we spend your tax
> dollars to upgrade it so that controllers can be comfortable and efficient
> while wearing pants or should we just allow them to dress comfortably under
> the present conditions?

Do you wear shorts in the winter?

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 14:00:50 GMT, "Steven P. McNicoll"
> wrote in
et>:

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>>
>> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
>> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
>> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
>> developed and implemented something similar.
>>
>
>What have they developed and deployed?

From Boeing's web site <http://www.boeing.com/phantom/ast/atm.html>, I
was unable to find mention of their having deployed anything yet, but
you are welcome to research it.


>I know Lockheed Martin built Common ARTS under an FAA contract,

It looks like LocMart did that in 2001 or before:


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11980&rsbci=0&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400
LOCKHEED MARTIN CONTINUES SUCCESSFUL COMMON ARTS INSTALLATIONS
ROCKVILLE, MD, December 3, 2001 -- Lockheed Martin Air Traffic
Management completed its 138th consecutive on- or
ahead-of-schedule installation of the world's most advanced
terminal air traffic control system with activation of its Common
Automated Radar Terminal System (ARTS) at the FAA's facility in
Minneapolis, Minnesota ...



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=12115&rsbci=0&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400
LOCKHEED MARTIN CONTINUES SUCCESSFUL COMMON ARTS INSTALLATIONS
ROCKVILLE, MD, May 14, 2001 -- The world's most advanced terminal
air traffic control system is in service at the nation's busiest
hub airport. Lockheed Martin Air Traffic Management announced
today that its Common Automated Radar Terminal System (ARTS) is
operational at the FAA's new state-of-the-art Air Traffic Control
facility in Atlanta, Ga. The new Atlanta Terminal Radar Approach
Control (TRACON) facility went into service at 4:35 a.m., April 7,
and was fully commissioned less than 72 hours later on April 10.

"As the terminal automation and display system provider, we salute
the FAA's achievement," says Don Antonucci, president, Lockheed
Martin Air Traffic Management. "The FAA professionals in the
Southern Region transitioned the nation's busiest hub airport from
the Hartsfield TRACON to the new Atlanta TRACON without any
degradation in air traffic control systems or services. We salute
their fine work and we're equally proud that this installation
continues Lockheed Martin's unbroken record of on-time and
on-budget performance on Common ARTS."


Here 're LocMart's ATC products:

http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=13214&sc=400


And a few actual deployments:


http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11209&rsbci=15271&fti=124&ti=0&sc=400
Taiwan Air Traffic Control Automation System
ATCAS
DESCRIPTION:

This system was commissioned into full operational service in July
1996. It provides fully integrated, around-the-clock en route,
terminal and tower automation functions at Taiwan's four busiest
air traffic control centers. The Taiwan Air Traffic Control
Automation System (ATCAS) is based on proven U.S. and U.K.
systems, which were modified to take advantage of the latest air
traffic control display technology, and customized for the Taiwan
CAA's unique requirements.



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11205&rsbci=13214&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400
New Zealand Air Traffic Control System
DESCRIPTION:

Under a 10-year partnership agreement with Airways New Zealand,
Lockheed Martin replaced the current New Zealand air traffic
control system with its SkyLine® ATM product and established a
technology center of excellence, providing an Asia/Pacific
software development and operational testing center in
Christchurch, New Zealand. In addition, the partners agreed to
jointly pursue global opportunities in airspace management and
communications, Navigation and Surveillance/Air Traffic Management
(CNS/ATM) technology modernization. The partnership agreement was
signed in May 2000.



http://www.lockheedmartin.com/wms/findPage.do?dsp=fec&ci=11203&rsbci=13214&fti=0&ti=0&sc=400
Nanchang and Hangzhou Automation Systems
DESCRIPTION:

Lockheed Martin is responsible for two new terminal approach
control systems installed for the Civil Aviation Administration of
China (CAAC) at the new Changbei Airport in Nanchang, in the
People's Republic of China. The contract, which was awarded to
Lockheed Martin in April 1999, was for two air traffic control
automation systems - one, to be installed at the new Changbei
Airport in Nanchang, and a second to be installed at the new
Xiaoshan Airport in Hangzhou. The Hangzhou system will undergo
integration and acceptance tests in July 2000, when the new ATC
facility is completed. The two systems are based on Lockheed
Martin's SkyLine® family of ATC systems.


And Raytheon is deploying STARS:

http://www.raytheon.com/products/stars_faa/

http://www.raytheon.com/products/stellent/groups/public/documents/content/cms01_052895.pdf
The STARS system is more reliable than the ARTS system, which has
no backup. STARS is composed of two separate, fully redundant
automation systems that are running in parallel, eliminating
common-mode failures and providing controllers with instantaneous
backup service.

The FSL (Full Service Level) system is based on Raytheon’s
AutoTrac air traffic management system while the ESL (Emergency
Service Level) is based on Raytheon’s TracView automation product.
Both of these air traffic management products are in use today by
civil aviation agencies throughout the world, including Amsterdam
and Frankfurt, two of the largest terminal area control facilities
in the world.


http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/9_24b/leadnews/185159-1.html
June 12, 2003
STAR Light, STAR Bright
By Arturo Weiss, Newswriter

FAA Commissions STARS In Philly...
On Monday, air traffic controllers in Philadelphia officially
began "STARS gazing." That's when the FAA commissioned the
Raytheon-built Standard Terminal Automation Replacement System
(STARS) ...


But the IG finds fault with FAA:
http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/9_27b/leadnews/185255-1.html


>and I'm aware that Boeing has proposed new systems but I'm unaware of anything
>they've got operating in the field.

I wasn't able to find any reference to actual Air Traffic Management
deployments on Boeing's web site.

>>
>> You may be correct about the ultimate cost, but initially the
>> contractor would have to propose something reasonably priced to win
>> the bidding competition.
>>
>
>Why would privatization require any new equipment?

Here's what Boeing is proposing:
http://www.boeing.com/phantom/ast/atm_product.html

It looks like it will be satellite based.

http://www.boeing.com/phantom/ast/61605_06FutureNow.pdf
As the world’s largest aerospace company Boeing is committed to
ensuring continued growth of aviation and is developing and
testing advanced concepts to help transform the air traffic
management (ATM) system. The accompanying diagram depicts the
future ATM system and Boeing’s key initiatives to achieve that
goal.

That's got to be a significant cost.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> Did I really need to? You don't understand the word "sick"?

Yes, you do, since you said that incapacitation do to drowsiness was
not an acceptable excuse for sick leave.


> > Yes it is.
> >
>
> No it isn't. An answer would be the reason for the new policy.

They provided it. They felt that controllers could be groggy coming
out of their nap onto their shift.

It doesn't matter what their reason is though. They set the rules.
Why are you so anti-authority?

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
> >
> > Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.
> >
>
> It's not broken, it's just not up to the task. Should we spend your tax
> dollars to upgrade it so that controllers can be comfortable and efficient
> while wearing pants or should we just allow them to dress comfortably under
> the present conditions?

All facilities aren't up to the task? Controllers in radar facilities
(those dark windowless rooms) should be able to wear shorts as well?

Do you wear jeans in the winter? Or is the dress code requirement of
dress pants ok then?

Is this a temperature issue, or an authority issue for you?

[Jose[_1_]]

> I don't care if they think they are on the same team as the FAA. I
> care if they think they are on the same team as their co-controllers.

Do you think they don't think they are on the same team as their
co-controllers? Why do you think that?

> The FAA (who's setting the standards) disagrees. As do I.

I often disagree with the FAA. This would be no exception (though I'm
open to other opinions, especially from actual controllers, about the
working conditions there and how dress affects it)

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> So perhaps in a on-demand facility (where a terrorist incident might...

On the battlefield, this is a consideration. We are not on a
battlefield, despite what our president wants us to think.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> You're describing controllers working a position. We're not talking about
> them. We're talking about controllers napping while on a break so that they
> may be alert when they return to work a position.

I want them alert BEFORE they return to work a position. I want them
at a minimum to be AWAKE when they are at the facility. On duty or on
break. If they've got nothing to do they can read the controller's
manual again. Or maybe the AIM. But in your world its too much to ask
that someone be required to be awake for a given predetermined 8 hour
shift.

It's as Jay suggested. If you think this type of attitude is going to
fly with the general public much less the pilot community when you
start complaining about privatization you're going to be surprised.

Most people would expect that someone at work could be expected to stay
awake.

[bdl]

Jose wrote:
> > So perhaps in a on-demand facility (where a terrorist incident might...
>
> On the battlefield, this is a consideration. We are not on a
> battlefield, despite what our president wants us to think.

They surely have a terrorist incident response plan. And part of a
plan to ground all aircraft (similar to 9/11) in the event of another
attack. One part of that plan might be that controllers on break are
required to be alert. Hence no naps.

[Emily[_1_]]

bdl wrote:
> Jose wrote:
>>> So perhaps in a on-demand facility (where a terrorist incident might...
>> On the battlefield, this is a consideration. We are not on a
>> battlefield, despite what our president wants us to think.
>
> They surely have a terrorist incident response plan. And part of a
> plan to ground all aircraft (similar to 9/11) in the event of another
> attack. One part of that plan might be that controllers on break are
> required to be alert. Hence no naps.
>
How would controllers on break help ground aircraft? They're on break.

[Jose[_1_]]

> One part of that plan might be that controllers on break are
> required to be alert. Hence no naps.

Good. Controllers will be tired instead.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Do you wear shorts in the winter?
>

No.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> I want them alert BEFORE they return to work a position.
>

Then you want them permitted to nap while on break.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
> They sure didn't include people like me in that study. I do not wake
> quickly whether from a good night's sleep or a nap. In the morning I
> roll out of bed into the "praying position" and then with the aid of
> the bed and wall, work myself into a standing position. After a nap I
> roll off the couch onto the floor, then climb into the praying
> position with the aid of the couch.

Must be nice to be so alert... I just manage to crawl to the nearest coffee
pot...

> I and others like me are a hazard to ourselves and those around us for
> an hour or so after waking and we are a long way from being unique.

Adrenaline works great for getting you initially awake, but if I find out
that there is nothing so pressing that needs killing at that point, I want
to go back to sleep...

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Yes, you do, since you said that incapacitation do to drowsiness was
> not an acceptable excuse for sick leave.
>

I didn't say that. I said the policy does not permit use of sick leave for
drowsiness.


>
> They provided it. They felt that controllers could be groggy coming
> out of their nap onto their shift.
>

They did? Cite please.


>
> It doesn't matter what their reason is though.
>

Shouldn't any change in policy be justified?


>
> They set the rules.
> Why are you so anti-authority?
>

I'm not. Why are you so imperceptive?

[Jose[_1_]]

> Hmm. Might it have increased taxe revenue too? Thereby allowing more
> bridge maintenance?

Maybe. However I suspect not by much.

> How about those bridge maintenance crews didn't
> have to spend as much time working around graffitti? Perhaps they took
> more pride in their work? Gave that extra 10%?

I doubt it actually.

> Made them feel [... t]hat their work wasn't just trashed to no avail by the
> next street gang?

Maintanance isn't just paint that gets trashed by a street gang.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Controllers in radar facilities (those dark windowless rooms) should be
> able to wear shorts as well?
>

Sure. Why not?


>
> Do you wear jeans in the winter?
>

I did.


>
> Or is the dress code requirement of
> dress pants ok then?
>

I don't like it for winter either.


>
> Is this a temperature issue, or an authority issue for you?
>

It appears to be an authority issue for FAA management.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:

> It appears to be an authority issue for FAA management.

FAA management is the authority.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> FAA management is the authority.
>

Of course. The question is why are they making an issue of it?

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> I didn't say that. I said the policy does not permit use of sick leave for
> drowsiness.

Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation? If they are so drowsy
they are not at 100% for work they shouldnt' be there.

> > They provided it. They felt that controllers could be groggy coming
> > out of their nap onto their shift.
> >
>
> They did? Cite please.
>
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/717-full.html

<quote>
Among the FAA's new work rules imposed on air traffic controllers last
week was a ban on napping during breaks and, predictably perhaps, the
agency and the controllers union differ on the impact of such a rule.
"Even though they're on break, they can be called back to work at any
time," FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown told The Associated Press. "If they
had to be called back to work traffic and they had been sleeping, they
would be groggy."
</qoute>


> Shouldn't any change in policy be justified?

It was justified.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.

That's what I suggested previously... If you want to make them quit wearing
shorts, just turn up the A/C...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
> It's not broken, it's just not up to the task. Should we spend your tax
> dollars to upgrade it so that controllers can be comfortable and efficient
> while wearing pants or should we just allow them to dress comfortably
under
> the present conditions?

The former because not everyone likes to wear shorts...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I want them alert BEFORE they return to work a position. I want them
> at a minimum to be AWAKE when they are at the facility. On duty or on
> break. If they've got nothing to do they can read the controller's
> manual again. Or maybe the AIM.

I thought you wanted them *awake*... Reading the AIM is *not* conducive for
that...

[Allen[_1_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> I want them alert BEFORE they return to work a position.
>>
>
> Then you want them permitted to nap while on break.

How long is the break period?

Allen

[Jose[_1_]]

> Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation?

I'm drowsy to incapacitation every night. That doesn't make me sick
every night.

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jose[_1_]]

> ARTCCs have been upgraded as well. (Acronym?)

Air Route Traffic Control Centers

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Newps]

>
>>I'll admit I don't know what the "standard" shifts are. Nor, the
>>turnaround between shifts. But I would assume they aren't working
>>doctors hours, or anything similar. Please enlighten me as to typical
>>work shifts.

We bid days off every six months by seniority. My facility has no
turnover because it's a great place to work and live, therefore nobody
leaves and we need no people. We are going to start getting into some
retirements in the next few years. For that reason we are getting three
new people. First one this month then the other two in the spring. The
days off haven't changed for anybody in the last 5 or 6 years. We have
permanent days off, none of that rotating crap that are the legion of
poorly run facilities. In my case I have Saturdays and Sundays off.
Start work Monday at 3 pm, Tuesday at 1 pm, Wednesday at 7 am, Thursday
at 6 am and the mid shift Thursday night at 10 pm. Lately I have been
swapping my Thursday 6am for the Wednesday night mid with one of the
guys on those days off that don't ever want a mid, thereby working two
mids a week. I'll do that until mid October as I prefer to be home
days. Back when I worked at GFK we had the rotating days off until we
changed it to permanent days off.

>
>
>
>>If they are drowsy on shift, maybe they shouldn't be on shift.

Unavoidable. I am never 100% for the entirety of any midshift. Not
possible. The FAA knows this is a necessary part of working a 24 faciltiy.

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 13 Sep 2006 03:01:39 GMT, Jose >
wrote:

>> They sure didn't include people like me in that study. I do not wake
>> quickly whether from a good night's sleep or a nap.
>
>Would you choose to take a nap? There is some self selection involved too.

I can choose when not to sleep, but my body decides whether it is
going to sleep of not.

I'd have to be really tired to be able to take a nap on break. If I
was that tired they might as well send me home any way.


>
>Jose
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jose[_1_]]

> I'd have to be really tired to be able to take a nap on break.

This might not be true of others. Why not let them decide?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > FAA management is the authority.
> >
>
> Of course. The question is why are they making an issue of it?

They aren't.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> They aren't.
>

You're misinformed.

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"bdl" > wrote:

>> Do you work better in a tie?
>
> I work more professionally.

So naturally your experience must extrapolate to everyone else in
all other jobs...

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Trevor]

Jose wrote:

> > ARTCCs have been upgraded as well. (Acronym?)
>
> Air Route Traffic Control Centers

Heh. I meant for the upgrades, not for ARTCC itself. I think I have
that one down :) but there are numerous pieces/blocks of ARTCC
modernization, and being government you need a lot of acronyms to handle
that.

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote
>
> I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two
evening
> shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then repeat.
> That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
> juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
> natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
> closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
> about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.

I'm surprised that there are work schedules like that, still around. It
seems like that would put a person in perpetual jet lag. That would put
people in a state where fatigue would be unpreventable, I would think.

No wonder that some think naps are needed. I would need them, I think.
--
Jim in NC

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >
> > They aren't.
> >
>
> You're misinformed.

Not according to the AP.

[bdl]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article . com>,
> "bdl" > wrote:
>
> >> Do you work better in a tie?
> >
> > I work more professionally.
>
> So naturally your experience must extrapolate to everyone else in
> all other jobs...

Never said that. He was extrapolating his experience to me.

[bdl]

Jose wrote:
> > Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation?
>
> I'm drowsy to incapacitation every night. That doesn't make me sick
> every night.

Ok fine, whatever.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Even drowsiness to the extent of incapacitation?
>

Yes. The new "contract" says sick leave cannot be granted for rest.


>
> If they are so drowsy they are not at 100% for work they shouldnt' be
> there.
>

FAA management disagrees with you.


>
> http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/717-full.html
>
> <quote>
> Among the FAA's new work rules imposed on air traffic controllers last
> week was a ban on napping during breaks and, predictably perhaps, the
> agency and the controllers union differ on the impact of such a rule.
> "Even though they're on break, they can be called back to work at any
> time," FAA spokeswoman Laura Brown told The Associated Press. "If they
> had to be called back to work traffic and they had been sleeping, they
> would be groggy."
> </qoute>
>

That's simply fascinating. "Groggy" means "dazed and weakened, as from lack
of sleep". So FAA management cannot permit controllers to sleep while
they're on a break because if they had to be called back to work traffic and
they had been sleeping, they would be suffering from a lack of sleep.


>
> It was justified.
>

What was the justification?

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Allen" > wrote in message
...
>
> How long is the break period?
>

It varies. On a night shift, when a nap would be most beneficial, it could
be several hours.

I used to trade into many night shifts when I was taking college courses.
We'd work together until the traffic died down to practically nothing,
usually about an hour into the shift which began at 10PM. Then one of us
would take a break for about three hours. On my break I'd study, my partner
would usually nap. Before the traffic would pick up, with about an hour
left in the shift, we'd be working together again.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Not according to the AP.
>

Absurd. If FAA management wasn't making an issue of it there'd be nothing
to report.

[Dan Luke]

"Grumman-581" wrote:

>> Sounds like we need to fix the A/C.
>
> That's what I suggested previously... If you want to make them quit wearing
> shorts, just turn up the A/C...

Usually it's not that simple.

My company has designed and installed the HVAC controls in several tower
cabs. They are a difficult cooling design problem because of the small
volume and large solar radiation load. Sizing the cooling equipment for a
worst case summer day will cause it to be oversized for most other cooling
days, which can lead to inadequate dehumidification, particularly at night.
HVAC systems are almost never designed for worst case days.

--
Dan
C-172RG at BFM

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"bdl" > wrote:

> > >> Do you work better in a tie?
> > >
> > > I work more professionally.
> >
> > So naturally your experience must extrapolate to everyone else in
> > all other jobs...
>
> Never said that. He was extrapolating his experience to me.

"So while dockers and a collared shirt may not be as regimented as a
uniform its still better in my opinion than a cavalier, anything goes
attitude."

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Larry Dighera > wrote:

> >> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
> >> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
> >> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
> >> developed and implemented something similar.
> >
> >What does Boeing or LocMart have that is better or more modern than
> >STARS (which is being deployed now)?
>
> Bob, I don't have a specific answer to your question, as I don't claim
> to be familiar with STARS nor Boeing/LocMart ATC systems.

So why do you believe that Boeing and Locmart have already developed
more modern ATC systems than the FAA has?


>
> Is STARS space-based?

No. STARS uses multiple radar feeds (the typical traditional long-range and
terminal radars that we all know and love). It can be upgraded with other
sensor feeds as they become available.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[SeeAndAvoid]

This is what CAMI (Civil Aeronautical Medical Institute, or something)
calls "rapidly reversing rotating schedules" or something like that. It's
usually a late shift (3p-11p) followed by an earlier late shift, then a
quick
turnaround day shift and either two more early dayshifts, or dayshift then
midshift (8 hours apart). CAMI reported this was one of the worse
schedules on the human body, saying something similar to what you said,
perpetual state of jetlag. Just when your body recovers, if at all, it's
time
to start all over again. I've been doing it for 21+ years at 3 different
facilities, 2 swings, 3 days or 2 swings, 2 days, 1 mid (graveyard). One
year, citing these CAMI studies, I tried to do the opposite, 3 day shifts -
each one later than the prior, and 2 swing shifts. I even said I'd take the
less popular days-off, like Mo/Tu or Tu/We even though I had the seniority
to get whatever I wanted. Shot down, "not the way we do it or have ever
done it".
If I were to do those 20-25min power naps, I'd say they were extremely
effective and I wouldnt get up in a daze. I'd be able to get right into the
heaviest rush - IF I were to do that. But it's not for everyone, but I
could
come out of a snoring, drooling, REM laden snoozefest - and be ready
for anything. Those that say it's not possible are wrong, based on what
I've seen. Not working graveyards go a long way towards not needing
them at all.
This whole "contract" thing...most controllers I know just want to come to
work,
do their job and be left alone. Now we're getting bothered daily with
"contract"
interpretations, GENOT's about a wrong interpretation, told that 'flat'
shoes
no matter if they're dress shoes or not are not acceptable, then the
opposite, then
we can work credit for someone else, then we can't, that we're getting a pay
cut,
then pay freeze, then status quo, then supervisors are getting a 13% pay
raise,
followed by a possible $20k pay cut, then we can't flex in, then we can...on
and
on it goes. In other words, non-stop screwing around with us with rules
that
those enforcing them don't even understand, regardless of this fairly
expensive
"class" they all went to in St. Louis..on your dime. My take, it was just
one big
party celebrating the wide swing of the pendulum in their direction.
Because
they sure didnt come back very edumacated.
Put simply, picture the least respected traffic dodgers, in other words
someone
being paid, quite a bit, to NOT do the job they were hired to do. In some
cases
it's been years, several, since talking to an airplane. These are the ones
deciding
if the shirt you have on, or the bottom of your shoe, is acceptable or not.
Same
ones who monday morning quarterback you about how you work traffic,
nevermind
they'd be downright dangerous near a scope. Now they've been given the keys
to
the kingdom with this contract, and they're going to town. It'll get real
bad before
they realize the damage they've done, and we'll all pay for it, but they
won't. If
some of you think controllers are overpaid, you need to get a load of these
types.
Paid even more to do far less. They are the problem. I like to think we
(pilots and controllers) are on the same team. I'm just not sure who they
think
lower of, controllers (worker bee's) or the users.
Rots of ruck, Chris


"Morgans" > wrote in message
...
>
> "Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote
>>
>> I believe most facilities still work on a seven week rotation. Two
> evening
>> shifts, followed by two day shifts, followed by two days off, then
>> repeat.
>> That's six days so your two days off advance by one day each week. It's
>> juggled a bit when the two days off are on a weekend so that there's two
>> natural weekends off in a row. That's the schedule for a facility that
>> closes at night. At 24 hour facilities you'll get a day-mid. Come in at
>> about six AM and then back that same day about 10 PM.
>
> I'm surprised that there are work schedules like that, still around. It
> seems like that would put a person in perpetual jet lag. That would put
> people in a state where fatigue would be unpreventable, I would think.
>
> No wonder that some think naps are needed. I would need them, I think.
> --
> Jim in NC
>

[bdl]

Bob Noel wrote:

>
> "So while dockers and a collared shirt may not be as regimented as a
> uniform its still better in my opinion than a cavalier, anything goes
> attitude."

I stand by that statement. I thought you were talking about the tie
comment.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message

> Absurd. If FAA management wasn't making an issue of it there'd be nothing
> to report.

If NATCA weren't making an issue of it there'd be nothing to report.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"bdl" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> If NATCA weren't making an issue of it there'd be nothing to report.
>

That's not the way it works, this isn't a chicken and egg issue. If FAA
management wasn't making an issue of it there'd have been nothing for NATCA
to respond to and thus nothing to report.

[Larry Dighera]

On Sat, 16 Sep 2006 19:44:37 -0400, Bob Noel
> wrote in
>:

>In article >,
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> >> Well, I believe Boeing and LocMart have already developed (and
>> >> deployed) modern ATC systems (probably superior to the existing FAA
>> >> stuff), so modernization could be much more rapid than if the FAA
>> >> developed and implemented something similar.
>> >
>> >What does Boeing or LocMart have that is better or more modern than
>> >STARS (which is being deployed now)?
>>
>> Bob, I don't have a specific answer to your question, as I don't claim
>> to be familiar with STARS nor Boeing/LocMart ATC systems.
>
>So why do you believe that Boeing and Locmart have already developed
>more modern ATC systems than the FAA has?

I recalled having read that Boeing was proposing ATC management to
Britain a few years ago, and figured they had a product to market. It
would seem, that perhaps they were looking for someone to fund
development. But if not Boeing, which companies are contracting ATC
services to Oz, GB, Canada, ...?

>
>>
>> Is STARS space-based?
>
>No.

Somehow it seems apparent to me, that ATC of the future will employ
satellite based communications and observation equipment in addition
to the current terrestrial systems. It just seems a natural, with the
exception of solar ejections.

>STARS uses multiple radar feeds (the typical traditional long-range and
>terminal radars that we all know and love). It can be upgraded with other
>sensor feeds as they become available.

What is the current attitude of controllers toward STARS? I haven't
heard of any more problems like those that occurred during its initial
deployment.

[bdl]

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "bdl" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > If NATCA weren't making an issue of it there'd be nothing to report.
> >
>
> That's not the way it works, this isn't a chicken and egg issue. If FAA
> management wasn't making an issue of it there'd have been nothing for NATCA
> to respond to and thus nothing to report

It takes two to tango.

But whatever. I now join the rest of those that have debated with you
Steven. Too tired to care what you think.