Cambridge 302/303 users - feedback please

[Colin MacAlpine]

The new glider is ordered and we consider what vario
to instal. Having had a 302/303 for 6 years; 4 repairs
and some doubts could you please let me have your experiences
of the instrument re the following to assist in our
decision - Borgelt or Cambridge.

1. Reliability
2. Wind calculation ( Intermittantly final glides are
mad numbers and the wind is at that point very wrong
)
3. On thermal entry it overreads then calms down after
a half turn ( Maybe our plumbing)
4. We have never been convinced that netto relative
works.

Many thanks , Colin

[kirk.stant]

May I suggest you look at the SN10? Particularly if you are interested
in racing, it's a really nice (and easy to use) system.

I've had mine for 6 years now with absolutely no problems.

Add a PDA for backup moving map/landing fields, and a backup minivario
(Tasman, B-400, Ilec, VW 910) and you have the whole deal.

You do need a GPS source, I use a dedicated Garmin 35. The SN10 has a
good but non-.igc logger, OK for OLC classic. It will work well with
any Garmin, or real .igc logger, too.

It also now talks to PDA software, such as MCU and Strepla.

I figure, if it's good enough for Dick Butler and George Moffat, it's
good enough for me!

(and no, I don't work for Ilec...)

Kirk

[Andy[_1_]]

I have used a 302, without the 303, but with Glide Nav for several
years:

1.Reliability. 2 cases of internal seal failure otherwise no problems
2. Wind calculation - not done in 302
3. Good TE compensation no problem with over-read on thermal entry. I
use 1.7 audio and 2.3 vario and see good correlation with B40 readings.
4. Reads lower sink than B40 in cruise but never ran the numbers to see
if difference matched polar. No problem finding thermals in cruise.
Not an issue.

I did replace the display as I had one with incorrect polarization.
Not a reliability issue but a poor parts screening process.

Andy

[BB]

Colin MacAlpine wrote:
> The new glider is ordered and we consider what vario
> to instal. Having had a 302/303 for 6 years; 4 repairs
> and some doubts could you please let me have your experiences
> of the instrument re the following to assist in our
> decision - Borgelt or Cambridge.
>
> 1. Reliability
> 2. Wind calculation ( Intermittantly final glides are
> mad numbers and the wind is at that point very wrong
> )
> 3. On thermal entry it overreads then calms down after
> a half turn ( Maybe our plumbing)
> 4. We have never been convinced that netto relative
> works.
>
> Many thanks , Colin

Crazy wind numbers in a glide means you're getting bad airspeed
information. This comes from bad pitot/static info, from a leak in the
lines, in an instrument sharing the lines. It can also come from a bad
airspeed sensor in the 302. All of these have happened to me. (Always
at national contests, of course) Check the 302 airspeed (one of the
later pages).

Undercompensation is another symptom of the same issues, especialy if
you're using electronic compensation. Of course regular old leaks in
the probe plumbing give undercompensation too.

In my experience the 302 can be a great vario, but it is sensitive to
plumbing.

John Cochrane BB

[[email protected]]

I've had mine since late 2001 (302 only). It was jumpy and tended to
overshoot early on but Marty Eiler at Caracole worked some magic with
the plumbing and it now matches my B-40 in response as well as
strength. The only problem has been with the gear warning system which
failed intermittently and finally gave up the ghost (yes, we checked
the switches and wiring all the way to the connections on the 302).
Next time the unit comes out for calibration, I'll send it back to have
this checked.

I use it with WinPilot Pro and am quite satisfied. The 302 is the only
system I've used, so I can't be of any help on comparisons with others.

Ray Warshaw

Andy wrote:
> I have used a 302, without the 303, but with Glide Nav for several
> years:
>
> 1.Reliability. 2 cases of internal seal failure otherwise no problems
> 2. Wind calculation - not done in 302
> 3. Good TE compensation no problem with over-read on thermal entry. I
> use 1.7 audio and 2.3 vario and see good correlation with B40 readings.
> 4. Reads lower sink than B40 in cruise but never ran the numbers to see
> if difference matched polar. No problem finding thermals in cruise.
> Not an issue.
>
> I did replace the display as I had one with incorrect polarization.
> Not a reliability issue but a poor parts screening process.
>
> Andy

[Marc Ramsey]

Andy wrote:
> 2. Wind calculation - not done in 302

The 302 does calculate wind, and it is used by the 303 and several third
party software packages. I've found it to be fairly accurate, but I'd
be a bit skeptical about what it's reporting after long periods of cruise...

[Marc Ramsey]

kirk.stant wrote:
> May I suggest you look at the SN10? Particularly if you are interested
> in racing, it's a really nice (and easy to use) system.

I had an SN10 a few years back, and found it to be excellent for
assigned tasks, but painful for flying without a set task. It was hard
to create a task on the fly, and there was no easy way to determine what
turnpoints were nearby. Perhaps this has been fixed in recent years...

Marc

[kirk.stant]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> I had an SN10 a few years back, and found it to be excellent for
> assigned tasks, but painful for flying without a set task. It was hard
> to create a task on the fly, and there was no easy way to determine what
> turnpoints were nearby. Perhaps this has been fixed in recent years...

I find it extremely easy to change task on the fly - much easier than
any PDA program I've tried (I've flown with MCU, Winpilot, and
pocketStrePla, and played with GNII). You do have to know where the
turnpoints are - either a marked map, or a PDA map work well in this
case. Helps if they are numbered.

But I agree it is best for assigned tasks (which is what I prefer,
naturally...). A bit awkward for AATs, but I've yet to find a device
that does that well (without too much heads down time).

It now shows closest alternates, not the same as closest turnpoints.

Cheers,

Kirk

[HL Falbaum]

I have flown extensively with LNav, SNav, and 302/Winpilot. They have been
satisfactory. The 302 has been to the factory once for Malfunction since
2001.
I have a bit of experience with SN 10.
Didn't notice much difference in variometry.

--
Hartley Falbaum


"Colin MacAlpine" > wrote in
message ...
> The new glider is ordered and we consider what vario
> to instal. Having had a 302/303 for 6 years; 4 repairs
> and some doubts could you please let me have your experiences
> of the instrument re the following to assist in our
> decision - Borgelt or Cambridge.
>
> 1. Reliability
> 2. Wind calculation ( Intermittantly final glides are
> mad numbers and the wind is at that point very wrong
> )
> 3. On thermal entry it overreads then calms down after
> a half turn ( Maybe our plumbing)
> 4. We have never been convinced that netto relative
> works.
>
> Many thanks , Colin
>
>
>

[Greg Arnold]

If you live in the USA, the advantage of the 302 is that when it breaks
down (and it will), you can get a very quick turnaround on repairs.

However, when I had an SN-10, it once had to be sent to Germany for
repairs, and Dave Nadler sent me a loaner SN-10 to use in the meantime.
Great service from Dave.

Due to a lack of panel space in my A fuselage Schempp-Hirth, I don't
have the option of using the SN-10, but instead am running a PDA hooked
up to a 302. However, I probably would use the SN-10 if I had the space.



kirk.stant wrote:
> May I suggest you look at the SN10? Particularly if you are interested
> in racing, it's a really nice (and easy to use) system.
>
> I've had mine for 6 years now with absolutely no problems.
>
> Add a PDA for backup moving map/landing fields, and a backup minivario
> (Tasman, B-400, Ilec, VW 910) and you have the whole deal.
>
> You do need a GPS source, I use a dedicated Garmin 35. The SN10 has a
> good but non-.igc logger, OK for OLC classic. It will work well with
> any Garmin, or real .igc logger, too.
>
> It also now talks to PDA software, such as MCU and Strepla.
>
> I figure, if it's good enough for Dick Butler and George Moffat, it's
> good enough for me!
>
> (and no, I don't work for Ilec...)
>
> Kirk
>

[JS]

Colin MacAlpine wrote:
> The new glider is ordered and we consider what vario
> to instal. Having had a 302/303 for 6 years; 4 repairs
> and some doubts could you please let me have your experiences
> of the instrument re the following to assist in our
> decision - Borgelt or Cambridge.
>
> 1. Reliability
> 2. Wind calculation ( Intermittantly final glides are
> mad numbers and the wind is at that point very wrong
> )
> 3. On thermal entry it overreads then calms down after
> a half turn ( Maybe our plumbing)
> 4. We have never been convinced that netto relative
> works.
>
> Many thanks , Colin

Hallo:
Have owned 2 S-NAVs, 1 L-NAV, 1 SN-10b (all with CAI GPS-NAV), 2 302s
each with both 303 and WP. The one glider that I used all three types
in ended up with the 302/303/WP. That panel was fantastic.
Worst thing about the S-and L-NAVs was that the audio tops out at 10
knots. Got used to the wacky wind screens, only 250 navpoints in ye
olde GPS. The 123.5MHz noise problem is a pain.
Even though Dave Ellis thinks we're crazy, the 302 thermal entry
overread is fixed with a Scheuemann restrictor in the TE line. See
Ray's post.
I liked the SN-10b, could add/change turnpoints to a task (then with
only 250 points in the database, their turnpoint abbreviations are too
short so a larger database would be messy). When the Ilec went quiet
switching from cruise to climb I absolutely hated it. It was even worse
with auto cruise/climb switching. Had thought the "No Bad News" option
was "no sink in climb", but it provided "no push in cruise". Would
prefer the other way around. The newer software's moving map is
primitive, but useful for turn sectors and SUAs.
Have had a couple of problems with the 302s but very quickly repaired
by CAI.
No experience with any contemporary Borgelt but the trusty B40. Heard
service turnaround wasn't great.
Jim

[Ian McPhee]

In fairness to Cambridge there was a quality control prob when 302s etc were
manufactured by intermediate "Cambridge" at Martinville back about 4 years
(?) ago. There were problems for sure but the Horn Lake Cambridge people
fixed up the old problems and the last 3 years has been trouble
free...................Ian M

"JS" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Colin MacAlpine wrote:
>> The new glider is ordered and we consider what vario
>> to instal. Having had a 302/303 for 6 years; 4 repairs
>> and some doubts could you please let me have your experiences
>> of the instrument re the following to assist in our
>> decision - Borgelt or Cambridge.
>>
>> 1. Reliability
>> 2. Wind calculation ( Intermittantly final glides are
>> mad numbers and the wind is at that point very wrong
>> )
>> 3. On thermal entry it overreads then calms down after
>> a half turn ( Maybe our plumbing)
>> 4. We have never been convinced that netto relative
>> works.
>>
>> Many thanks , Colin
>
> Hallo:
> Have owned 2 S-NAVs, 1 L-NAV, 1 SN-10b (all with CAI GPS-NAV), 2 302s
> each with both 303 and WP. The one glider that I used all three types
> in ended up with the 302/303/WP. That panel was fantastic.
> Worst thing about the S-and L-NAVs was that the audio tops out at 10
> knots. Got used to the wacky wind screens, only 250 navpoints in ye
> olde GPS. The 123.5MHz noise problem is a pain.
> Even though Dave Ellis thinks we're crazy, the 302 thermal entry
> overread is fixed with a Scheuemann restrictor in the TE line. See
> Ray's post.
> I liked the SN-10b, could add/change turnpoints to a task (then with
> only 250 points in the database, their turnpoint abbreviations are too
> short so a larger database would be messy). When the Ilec went quiet
> switching from cruise to climb I absolutely hated it. It was even worse
> with auto cruise/climb switching. Had thought the "No Bad News" option
> was "no sink in climb", but it provided "no push in cruise". Would
> prefer the other way around. The newer software's moving map is
> primitive, but useful for turn sectors and SUAs.
> Have had a couple of problems with the 302s but very quickly repaired
> by CAI.
> No experience with any contemporary Borgelt but the trusty B40. Heard
> service turnaround wasn't great.
> Jim
>

[[email protected]]

I use a 302 with WinPilot PRO and I think it does a great job. The
vario readings match my B40 exactly.

My primary glide/task computer is an LX7007 and while they disagree
slightly on the winds, the glide calculations are nearly identical.

The SN10 is the most popular vario/glide-computer among the peelots I
fly with, however it does have its limitations, such as 10 max
turnpoints (in one flight) and it's not an IGC approved logger. But it
is a better value for the dollar, imho.

~ted/2NO

[Andy[_1_]]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Andy wrote:
> > 2. Wind calculation - not done in 302
>
> The 302 does calculate wind, and it is used by the 303 and several third
> party software packages. I've found it to be fairly accurate, but I'd
> be a bit skeptical about what it's reporting after long periods of cruise...

Ok I suppose I should have said - not displayed by 302. In my setup
the wind is displayed by GNII on a PDA . Those winds estimates seem
reasonable but I don't know if GNII uses the wind data directly from
the 302 or computes its own wind estimate. According to the interace
spec the 302 sends the following wind info:

<1> Vector wind direction in degrees
<2> Vector wind speed in 10ths of meters per second
<3> Vector wind age in seconds
<4> Component wind in 10ths of Meters per second + 500 (500 = 0, 495 =
0.5 m/s
tailwind)

So it advises user systems how stale the wind estimate is. GNII does
not pass that info on to the pilot. Does the 303?

Andy

[Eric Greenwell]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> Andy wrote:
>> 2. Wind calculation - not done in 302
>
> The 302 does calculate wind, and it is used by the 303 and several third
> party software packages. I've found it to be fairly accurate, but I'd
> be a bit skeptical about what it's reporting after long periods of
> cruise...

I'm read, and it seemed to be the case while I was using GN II, the wind
will update when you change course by about 20-30 degrees for at least
10 seconds. I believe this is true for most glide computers that don't
have heading information available to them.

--
Note: email address new as of 9/4/2006
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[ContestID67]

I own a 302. I have had zero problems with it.

No 303. Instead of the 303 I use a PDA to give me moving map,
navigation, other soaring task information, thermal analysis, etc.

Some pilots use a PDA plus a flight computer's navigation display (like
the 303) so that they can be analyze two possible turn points at the
same time. They do this to help make real time decisions during
contests. That is an advantage of the SN10 as it also provides an
additional navigation display. Personally I have enough on my hands
watching one display.

The other thing to think about is cost. The Cambridge system is less
expensive.

- John