Class E extension

[SB]

I am still confused on this particular issue and was hoping somebody in here
could point me in the right direction. I'm sure most of you are familiar
with the class E extension from C&D airports to help facilitate instrument
approaches. Well here's the question. If I can operate in VMC in the class
E extension for a D airport, am I required to talk with tower for that
airport and can they deny me entry to that airspace? The AIM says I have no
comms requirement so long as I maintain VMC. I can't find anything in the
FAR to back this up, nor can the FSDO, and thus far the tower is under the
impression that when they are IMC, they own the E extension as well.

A response to my e-mail as well as this newsgroup with any thoughts on this
matter would be very much appreciated.

Tks,

[Ron Natalie]

SB wrote:
> I am still confused on this particular issue and was hoping somebody in here
> could point me in the right direction. I'm sure most of you are familiar
> with the class E extension from C&D airports to help facilitate instrument
> approaches. Well here's the question. If I can operate in VMC in the class
> E extension for a D airport, am I required to talk with tower for that
> airport and can they deny me entry to that airspace? The AIM says I have no
> comms requirement so long as I maintain VMC. I can't find anything in the
> FAR to back this up, nor can the FSDO, and thus far the tower is under the
> impression that when they are IMC, they own the E extension as well.
>
A class E extension is class E. There is no requirement for
communication. The restrictions for visibility, cloud clearance
and CEILING (it is what was formerly known as a control zone).

When the Control Zone is IMC they do own it.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"SB" > wrote in message
news:X6rMg.7863$Mz3.7788@fed1read07...
>
> I am still confused on this particular issue and was hoping somebody in
> here could point me in the right direction. I'm sure most of you are
> familiar with the class E extension from C&D airports to help facilitate
> instrument approaches. Well here's the question. If I can operate in VMC
> in the class E extension for a D airport, am I required to talk with tower
> for that airport and can they deny me entry to that airspace? The AIM
> says I have no comms requirement so long as I maintain VMC. I can't find
> anything in the FAR to back this up, nor can the FSDO, and thus far the
> tower is under the impression that when they are IMC, they own the E
> extension as well.
>
> A response to my e-mail as well as this newsgroup with any thoughts on
> this matter would be very much appreciated.
>

The weather observation at the core airport applies to the entire surface
area, including any Class E extensions. If it's 1000 and 3 or better you
can enter a Class E extension under VFR without calling the tower, that's
the reason the extensions were made Class E.

[Roy Smith]

Ron Natalie > wrote:
> A class E extension is class E. There is no requirement for
> communication. The restrictions for visibility, cloud clearance
> and CEILING (it is what was formerly known as a control zone).
>
> When the Control Zone is IMC they do own it.

Define "own".

[SB]

Thanks everybody for chiming in on this and Ron for e-mailing the response
as well. However, my head is still in the clouds.

By chance is there someplace where it actually says that in the FAR that the
tower "owns" the airspace? I'll assume "own" means you must contact them if
you intend to operate in the extension and they have the right per a
particular section of the FAR to deny you access. The AIM clearly states in
section 3-16 (Extension to a surface area) "Such airspace provides
controlled airspace to contain standard instrument approach procedures
without imposing a communications requirement on pilots operating under
VFR." I have not found anything in the FAR to contradict this.

Whaddya think guys? Please back up any responses with the associated FAR
section so I can hopefully put this to rest for myself and others. So far
all I have is the AIM.

Tks for your time and expertise,

Scott

"SB" > wrote in message
news:X6rMg.7863$Mz3.7788@fed1read07...
>I am still confused on this particular issue and was hoping somebody in
>here could point me in the right direction. I'm sure most of you are
>familiar with the class E extension from C&D airports to help facilitate
>instrument approaches. Well here's the question. If I can operate in VMC
>in the class E extension for a D airport, am I required to talk with tower
>for that airport and can they deny me entry to that airspace? The AIM says
>I have no comms requirement so long as I maintain VMC. I can't find
>anything in the FAR to back this up, nor can the FSDO, and thus far the
>tower is under the impression that when they are IMC, they own the E
>extension as well.
>
> A response to my e-mail as well as this newsgroup with any thoughts on
> this matter would be very much appreciated.
>
> Tks,
>
>
>

[Ron Natalie]

Roy Smith wrote:
> Ron Natalie > wrote:
>> A class E extension is class E. There is no requirement for
>> communication. The restrictions for visibility, cloud clearance
>> and CEILING (it is what was formerly known as a control zone).
>>
>> When the Control Zone is IMC they do own it.
>
> Define "own".

All flights are required to be under control of ATC.

[Ron Natalie]

SB wrote:

> By chance is there someplace where it actually says that in the FAR that the
> tower "owns" the airspace? I'll assume "own" means you must contact them if
> you intend to operate in the extension and they have the right per a
> particular section of the FAR to deny you access.

91.155 (d) no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the
traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries
of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace
designated for an airport --

(1) Unless ground visibility at that airport is at least 3 statute miles; or

(2) If ground visibility is not reported at that airport, unless flight
visibility during landing or takeoff, or while operating in the traffic
pattern is at least 3 statute miles.


---

The extensions are the "class E airspace designated for an airport."
That's why they exist, they are left over from the old control zones
which had such extensions and the same rules (Airport Traffic Areas:
control towered space was previously not controlled airspace, just
a communications requirement).

[Roy Smith]

In article >, Ron Natalie >
wrote:

> 91.155 (d) no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the
> traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries
> of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace
> designated for an airport --

The three actions prohibited by that rule are:

* Take off
* Land
* Enter the traffic pattern

It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
>
> The three actions prohibited by that rule are:
>
> * Take off
> * Land
> * Enter the traffic pattern
>
> It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000.
>

Are you in the Class E extension at that altitude?

[SB]

Thanks again guys for your responses on this and Ron for digging into the
FARs but it seems Roy has a point when he says:

"The three actions prohibited by that rule are:

* Take off
* Land
* Enter the traffic pattern

It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000"

I think if the tower is going to "own" the E airspace when their class D is
operating under IFR, the FAR should plainly state that and I don't think it
does. Anybody have an opinion on the section from the AIM which I quoted?


"Roy Smith" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, Ron Natalie >
> wrote:
>
>> 91.155 (d) no person may take off or land an aircraft, or enter the
>> traffic pattern of an airport, under VFR, within the lateral boundaries
>> of the surface areas of Class B, Class C, Class D, or Class E airspace
>> designated for an airport --
>
> The three actions prohibited by that rule are:
>
> * Take off
> * Land
> * Enter the traffic pattern
>
> It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000.

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"SB" > wrote in message
news:vEVMg.7893$Mz3.7238@fed1read07...
>
> Thanks again guys for your responses on this and Ron for digging into the
> FARs but it seems Roy has a point when he says:
>
> "The three actions prohibited by that rule are:
>
> * Take off
> * Land
> * Enter the traffic pattern
>
> It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000"
>
> I think if the tower is going to "own" the E airspace when their class D
> is operating under IFR, the FAR should plainly state that and I don't
> think it does. Anybody have an opinion on the section from the AIM which
> I quoted?
>

The tower doesn't even "own" the Class D airspace, that belongs to the
TRACON or ARTCC.

[SB]

Steve,

Thanks for chiming in. Yes I would be in the class E at that altitude.


"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote in message
ink.net...
>
> "SB" > wrote in message
> news:vEVMg.7893$Mz3.7238@fed1read07...
>>
>> Thanks again guys for your responses on this and Ron for digging into the
>> FARs but it seems Roy has a point when he says:
>>
>> "The three actions prohibited by that rule are:
>>
>> * Take off
>> * Land
>> * Enter the traffic pattern
>>
>> It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000"
>>
>> I think if the tower is going to "own" the E airspace when their class D
>> is operating under IFR, the FAR should plainly state that and I don't
>> think it does. Anybody have an opinion on the section from the AIM which
>> I quoted?
>>
>
> The tower doesn't even "own" the Class D airspace, that belongs to the
> TRACON or ARTCC.
>

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"SB" > wrote in message
news:BwYMg.7910$Mz3.397@fed1read07...
>
>Steve,
>
> Thanks for chiming in. Yes I would be in the class E at that altitude.
>

I think you're answering a question from a different message:


>
> It doesn't say anything about, for example, transitioning at TPA+1000.
>

Are you in the Class E extension at that altitude?


Would you be in the Class E extension to the Class D surface area if you
were operating 1000 feet above traffic pattern altitude? If the extension
did not exist the floor of controlled airspace would probably be 700 or 1200
AGL, I'd say you're above the Class E extension.

[SB]

Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it one
more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
guys on this issue again.

One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."

There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that is
under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due to
the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds that
roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.

I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.

One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?

Thanks to all.

Scott

[Peter Clark]

If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
approaching to land?

On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:23:43 -0700, "SB" > wrote:

>Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it one
>more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
>guys on this issue again.
>
>One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
>section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
>contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
>COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."
>
>There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that is
>under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
>into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
>though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due to
>the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds that
>roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.
>
>I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
>anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.
>
>One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
>there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the Class
>E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?
>
>Thanks to all.
>
>Scott
>

[SB]

Peter,

I see where you are coming from but that doesn't address the question.

"Is there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the
Class
E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?"

Here's a section right off an FAA website:
http://www.faa.gov/ATpubs/AIR/air1401.html

(e). CLASS E AIRSPACE AREA. Generally, if the airspace is not Class A, Class
B, Class C, or Class D, and it is controlled airspace, it is Class E
airspace. The types of Class E airspace areas are:

(1). Surface Area Designated for an Airport - When designated as a surface
area for an airport, the airspace will be configured to contain all
instrument procedures.

(2). Extension to a Surface Area - There are Class E airspace areas that
serve as extensions to Class B, Class C, Class D, and Class E surface areas
designated for an airport. Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
contain standard instrument approach procedures without imposing a
communications requirement on pilots operating under VFR.



If I can maintain VMC in a particular area, so should any other aircraft VFR
or IFR in the same area. Therefore, see and avoid will still apply and the
IFR aircraft in the Class E extension may be receiving radar traffic
advisories in the controlled airspace and be using see and avoid doctrine in
the VMC Class E Surface area just like any aircraft nearby operating VFR in
VMC.

I have not seen anything written, other than individual opinions, nothing
official, that says there is any type of communications requirement in a
Class E Surface area for aircraft operating under VFR. If anybody knows of
anything, that it what I am looking for.

Tks,

Scott




"Peter Clark" > wrote in message
...
> If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
> not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
> surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
> approaching to land?
>
> On Mon, 11 Sep 2006 08:23:43 -0700, "SB" > wrote:
>
>>Just in case we are getting away from my original question I will ask it
>>one
>>more time, maybe in a slightly different way, and then never bother you
>>guys on this issue again.
>>
>>One type of Class E airspace is the Extension to a Surface Area. Per
>>section 3-16 of the AIM..."Such airspace provides controlled airspace to
>>contain standard instrument approach procedures WITHOUT IMPOSING A
>>COMMUNICATIONS REQUIREMENT ON PILOTS OPERATING UNDER VFR."
>>
>>There is a tower in the San Diego area, Palomar Airport in Carlsbad, that
>>is
>>under the impression that I must contact them, and they can deny my entry
>>into the Class E extension when their airport Class D area is IMC even
>>though I can maintain VMC in the Class E. This weather happens often due
>>to
>>the fact that the airport itself is closer to the ocean and low clouds
>>that
>>roll in off the water, and the Class E extension is further inland.
>>
>>I was on the internet last night looking for 2 hours and couldn't find
>>anything to contradict the section of the AIM which I quoted above.
>>
>>One more time...aside from opinions, is there anybody that can tell me if
>>there is a section of the FAR which would prohibit me operating in the
>>Class
>>E if the associated Class D airport is IMC so long as I can maintain VMC?
>>
>>Thanks to all.
>>
>>Scott
>>

[Roy Smith]

Peter Clark > wrote:
> If the class D airport is IMC and thus requires approaches, would it
> not stand to reason that they also need their associated class E
> surface area under positive control for the aircraft which are
> approaching to land?

No.

Take a look at some place like CDW. It's got a CESA that runs about 18
miles from the airport, "protecting" the NDB-22 approach. I can't for the
life of me figure out how it gives aircraft on the approach any protection.

The minimum altitude outside of the FAF is 2000 MSL (approx 1800 AGL). How
does extending the floor of the CEAS from 700 AGL down to the surface
provide any protection for aircraft no lower than 1800 AGL or so?

It's even stranger than that. The procedure turn is noted "Remain within
10 NM". As far as I can measure on the sectional, the outer edge of the
CESA is 8 NM from the FAF. So what happens in the last 2 NM?