Terrain Avoidance at Night

[Dan[_1_]]

My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
paranoid about hitting terrain at night.

Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
make a plan?

--Dan

[Emily[_1_]]

Dan wrote:
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan
>
EGPWS?

Kidding.

I live in flatland, so I'm just thinking here, but I'm thinking you
could just take a look at the instrument approaches for the airports.
Take a look at the altitudes listed on the charts, stay above, and you
should be fine.

[Jay Beckman]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan
>

Hi Dan,

Welcome to the area! At which airport are you based?

Jay Beckman
Chandler

[Matt Whiting]

Dan wrote:

> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?

I tend to fly IFR at night so you can always fly a full approach if you
are really concerned. Often the light is good enough that you can still
see the mountains and other such obstacles. Study the sectional well
and know where the obstacles are located and you should be find.

Matt

[Larry Dighera]

On 12 Sep 2006 17:16:19 -0700, "Dan" > wrote in
om>:

>what other strategies do you all use?

Choose a night with a full moon and clear skies.

[Ron Lee]

>>what other strategies do you all use?

Stay in bed.

Ron Lee

[Mxsmanic]

Dan writes:

> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?

In the area around Phoenix these days, anything that isn't covered
with lights is likely to be a mountain, as I think that steep
mountainsides are the only spots left that aren't covered with
buildings and homes. The valley itself is quite flat, but it is
filled with traffic around the 12th-busiest airport in the world, and
the mountains rise rapidly around it. The terrain is flatter to the
southeast (Mesa, et al.) and southwest (towards Gila Bend), but there
are still mountains to contend with--flatter terrain is beyond. To
the north, the mountains don't let up much after you leave Phoenix.
South Mountain and its range to the south has large radio antennas
that help to mark the highest elevations.

KPHX is above 1135 feet, so 2000 MSL wouldn't give you much margin in
the valley and it will place you within terrain in many of the
surrounding mountains. I think 6000 MSL would clear most of the
mountains surrounding the valley, but I won't swear to it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?

Study the sectional, look for obstructions and terrain. If there's a
terminal area chart I look at that too. Read the comments in the AF/D
and on airnav about the airport in question. Stay high until you are
sure of the terrain. Fly a standard pattern (though in some places that
can put you pretty close to some obstructions - consider the approach to
26 at DXR). If in doubt, fly an instrument approach (but even those are
visual in the end)

Most airports are fine around the pattern, the oddball ones are often
evident by their lay on the sectional and the comments in the AF/D.

I copy relevant comments to my flight log to have them available to me
before approach (to remind me).

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Roy Smith]

"Dan" > wrote:
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?

Instrument procedures and airways are designed to keep you from hitting
terrain when you can't see it. If you can't see the terrain at night,
flying the instrument procedures seems like a perfectly reasonable way to
avoid hitting things.

You don't have to file IFR to fly an airway at a VFR altitude at or above
the MEA. If you've got GPS, flying the MOCA may get you lower than the MEA
but still above anything solid. Likewise, there's no reason you can't fly
an instrument approach while VFR.

[Dan[_1_]]

Jay,

I'm a member of Phoenix Flyers, 2 planes at DVT and 2 at CHD. I fly
out of both.

--Dan


Jay Beckman wrote:
> "Dan" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> > were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> > terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> > paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
> >
> > Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> > your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> > altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> > filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> > MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> > tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> > make a plan?
> >
> > --Dan
> >
>
> Hi Dan,
>
> Welcome to the area! At which airport are you based?
>
> Jay Beckman
> Chandler

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Dan" > wrote:

> ... or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and make a plan?

That's a good summary of what I do. If I know my route and the terrain issues from daytime flight or
examing the sectional, I can plan what altitude is required. e.g. "If I'm flying to Prescott, I know that if I'm
at 8500, I won't hit anything." As others have said, if you don't know the area, you can always fly an
instrument procedure.

Another consideration is basic risk management. My instructor used to tell me, "Night, Terrain, or
Weather - any one might be OK, but any two and you're getting risky, all three..." I don't usually venture
too far north into the mountainous areas at night unless I know exactly where I'm going, and the weather
is not a factor. Or plan the trip for twilight when there's still some ground visibility. Night flight around the
valley is very nice - smooth air, good views of the city, and not too hard to be at an altitude where terrain
just isn't a factor. Still it requires basic situational awareness - not only for terrain, but also for all the
controlled airspace. Welcome to the valley!

Mike

[Jim Macklin]

Full moon helps. Don't do a long shallow let-down, stay at
cruise altitude and let-down over or very near the airport.

If you have radar, tilt it up so the ground clutter is not
displayed during a shallow descent. If you see the ground,
it will be a ridge above your light path.

Use the lights of the cities, as long as your view during
let-down doesn't get "blacked out" by ridges and mountains,
you should clear obstacles.

Use oxygen above 5,000, it will improve your night vision,
whether your IFR or VFR.




--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where
as long as you
| were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit
and no
| terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am
increasingly
| paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
|
| Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything
even close to
| your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to
pattern
| altitude at the destination airport as well as departure.
Short of
| filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for
some local
| MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems"
or
| tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the
sectional and
| make a plan?
|
| --Dan
|

[tony roberts[_1_]]

Here's what I do

Go to Landings.com
Enter your route and receive terrain avoidance altitudes
Check it on your charts
Plan route accordingly
Fly route, double checking with your terrain avoidance GPS - highly
recommend the Lowrance 2000 for $700.00

Tony
C-GICE



In article om>,
"Dan" > wrote:

> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan




--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[BTIZ]

know where you are
know where the ground is
and if lights in the distance start blinking or disappearing
there is either a cloud between you and the light
or solid ground
BT

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan
>

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Dan wrote:
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan

Actually, it is pretty much look out the window and make a plan. I have
flown in NM, AZ and CO quite a bit, and at first I used to worry about
this too. Even in the most remote areas of the country, mountains stand
out as dark areas. So don't fly towards a dark area unless you know
what's in there. Sometimes it could be a lake or a low level cloud, but
there are not too many of those in AZ. Don't descend to pattern
altitude unless you have positively identified the runway. If there is
an obstacle between you and the airport, it will stick out as a dark
object. If the dark object is moving up your windsheld, then you better
climb. If it is getting lower, then you are ok. Once in the traffic
pattern, don't wander off too far. Very few airports have obstacles
higher than the pattern altitude within a couple of miles of the
runway, so if you keep a normal traffic pattern you should be ok. Check
the sectional chart for any unusual obstacles.

[Robert M. Gary]

I live in California. All my night flights outside the Sacramento
valley are IFR and I carry O2.

-Robert

Dan wrote:
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
It sounds like you could use one of the newer GPS's that have terrain
awareness options. It would be pretty hard to hit something real hard, if
your flight path was not all red! <g>
--
Jim in NC

[Jay Beckman]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> In the area around Phoenix these days, anything that isn't covered
> with lights is likely to be a mountain, as I think that steep
> mountainsides are the only spots left that aren't covered with
> buildings and homes. The valley itself is quite flat, but it is
> filled with traffic around the 12th-busiest airport in the world, and
> the mountains rise rapidly around it. The terrain is flatter to the
> southeast (Mesa, et al.) and southwest (towards Gila Bend), but there
> are still mountains to contend with--flatter terrain is beyond. To
> the north, the mountains don't let up much after you leave Phoenix.
> South Mountain and its range to the south has large radio antennas
> that help to mark the highest elevations.
>
> KPHX is above 1135 feet, so 2000 MSL wouldn't give you much margin in
> the valley and it will place you within terrain in many of the
> surrounding mountains. I think 6000 MSL would clear most of the
> mountains surrounding the valley, but I won't swear to it.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

So now we're an expert in geography?

Oh, and FWIW, Sky Harbor is 14th busiest worldwide and 8th busiest
domestically.

Ciao... (That's Italian for >PLONK<)

[Jay Beckman]

"Mike Adams" > wrote in message
news:caLNg.13772$c07.9506@fed1read04...
> "Dan" > wrote:
>
>> ... or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and make a plan?
>
> That's a good summary of what I do. If I know my route and the terrain
> issues from daytime flight or
> examing the sectional, I can plan what altitude is required. e.g. "If I'm
> flying to Prescott, I know that if I'm
> at 8500, I won't hit anything." As others have said, if you don't know the
> area, you can always fly an
> instrument procedure.
>
> Another consideration is basic risk management. My instructor used to tell
> me, "Night, Terrain, or
> Weather - any one might be OK, but any two and you're getting risky, all
> three..."

Nice approach to RM.

About a week after I'd flown my night dual XC to Prescott, I attended a
safety seminar geared specifically toward flying in AZ.

One particular presenter said he approached flying in AZ with these three
mindsets:
1) In the daytime, some parts of Arizona can be enjoyed as true VFR
2) Even, in the daytime, a few parts of Arizona should be treated as MVFR or
even IFR
3) At night, most of Arizona should be approached as HARD IFR (his
emphasis...)

Ok, so maybe Prescott wasn't such a good idea for a student cross country,
at night, when the moon was in a late rising phase...Guess I was too
ignorant to be scared. LOL!!

Jay Beckman
PP-ASEL
Chandler, AZ

[Margy Natalie]

tony roberts wrote:
> Here's what I do
>
> Go to Landings.com
> Enter your route and receive terrain avoidance altitudes
> Check it on your charts
> Plan route accordingly
> Fly route, double checking with your terrain avoidance GPS - highly
> recommend the Lowrance 2000 for $700.00
>
> Tony
> C-GICE
>
>
>
> In article om>,
> "Dan" > wrote:
>
>
>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>>
>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>>make a plan?
>>
>> --Dan
>
>
>
>
>
Yes, as I was reading this thread I starting thinking how much I REALLY
like my little box with the green triangles, the yellow triangles and
the red triangles. Even flying VFR on the east coast (5 in haze is GOOD
weather) the terrain avoidance as well as the traffic avoidance really
helps. The XM weather will probably end up paying for itself with the
savings in hotels and rental cars for those times you get up in the air
and say, hmmmmm, if this gets any worse, it could be bad. I'll just go
back and try again tomorrow. With the XM sometimes, if you are lucky,
it comes up and shows you are in the worst of it and if you just alter
your flight 20 miles east you will avoid everything.

Margy

Margy

[Roy Smith]

"BTIZ" > wrote:
> know where you are know where the ground is and if lights in the
> distance start blinking or disappearing there is either a cloud between
> you and the light or solid ground

This is a crucial point. I am always amazed when I fly licensed pilots at
night and they don't understand BTIZ's point.

At HPN, 29 has a displaced threshold due to trees just beyond the airport
boundary, and no VASI. If you're on final, the trees are invisible, but
the threshold lighting is bright and clear. If the threshold lights
suddenly disappear, that means you've fallen below a flight path that keeps
you clear of the trees.

When this happens, I'll say something like, "You're too low". If that
doesn't get a reaction pretty fast, the next hint is a much more emphatic,
"You need to climb NOW", quickly followed by my taking the controls. Some
people just don't seem to get it.

In a situation like this, the first glimpse you'll get of the trees is when
branches start coming through the windshield.

BTW, if the lights straight below you start blinking, that's because you're
looking straight down through a thin layer of ground fog. You take off a
little before sunset on a clear evening with a small temp/dewpoint spread.
The sun goes down, radiation cooling drops the surface temp 5 or 10
degrees, and suddenly there's fog. Maybe not in Pheonix, but it happens a
lot around here. This is bad news. A 100 foot thick layer of fog makes
the lights twinkle when you're looking straight down through it. On final,
when you're looking through it at an oblique angle, it's zero-zero landing
conditions.

[Nathan Young]

On 12 Sep 2006 17:16:19 -0700, "Dan" > wrote:

>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>
>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>make a plan?

I am a Midwesterner, but worry about the same when traveling far from
Chicago.

A few thoughts...

1. Review sectionals prior to flight, and make sure you are above the
MEF on all segments. This may not be realistic/practical in all
locations b/c the highest point in the quadrant may be far away from
where you are flying, un-necessarily driving a higher altitude.

2. Buy a Garmin 496 handheld with Terrain database. In addition to
all the other cool stuff, it will give you realtime terrain relative
to your location. The comfort factor is huge.

-Nathan

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Beckman writes:

> So now we're an expert in geography?

It depends on the location.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Larry Dighera]

On 12 Sep 2006 17:16:19 -0700, "Dan" > wrote in
om>:

>However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure.

It might be prudent to check here while planning your flight:

http://www.ngs.noaa.gov/AERO/dole.htm
The Airport Obstruction Chart (AOC) is a 1:12,000 scale graphic
(1:18,000 scale graphic for Denver International DEN 9077)
depicting Federal Aviation Regulations Part 77 surfaces, a
representation of objects that penetrate these surfaces, runway,
taxiway, and ramp areas, navigational aids, prominent airport
buildings, plus a selection of roads and other planimetric detail
in the airport vicinity.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Any "systems" or tricks to share, or is it pretty much just
> look at the sectional and make a plan?

If it's a clear night, stay up high until you can see the airport and then
descend... I once had to go from 14,000 ft to the 2011 ft pattern altitude
in 8 nm due to a TFR between the ridge and the airport... Throttle back to
80 kts, add full flaps, keep adding nose down pitch to maintain an 80 kt
descent... Couldn't even see the horizon through the top of the windshield
in my Grumman... Basically hanging on the flaps in a 2000+ fpm descent... At
around 4000 ft, I started reducing the flap setting and reducing the
elevator trim... Came out right on top of the airport and ready to intersect
the downwind at midfield... Interesting experience...

[RST Engineering]

Oh, PLEEZE keep doing that. My kids need college money and I want a Hawaii
vacation next year. I make a lot of money from shock-cooled engine work.

Jim
A&P IA



"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...

>
> If it's a clear night, stay up high until you can see the airport and then
> descend... I once had to go from 14,000 ft to the 2011 ft pattern altitude
> in 8 nm due to a TFR between the ridge and the airport... Throttle back to
> 80 kts, add full flaps, keep adding nose down pitch to maintain an 80 kt
> descent... Couldn't even see the horizon through the top of the windshield
> in my Grumman... Basically hanging on the flaps in a 2000+ fpm descent...
> At
> around 4000 ft, I started reducing the flap setting and reducing the
> elevator trim... Came out right on top of the airport and ready to
> intersect
> the downwind at midfield... Interesting experience...
>
>

[RST Engineering]

The sectional and preflight planning are OK, but in Arizona, you can see
your target destination from 50 to 100 miles out at night. When letting
down, if the lights of the city or the lights of the airport start to go
away, there is something big between you and the target.

Jim


"Dan" > wrote in message
ups.com...


Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan
>

[Mxsmanic]

RST Engineering writes:

> Oh, PLEEZE keep doing that. My kids need college money and I want a Hawaii
> vacation next year. I make a lot of money from shock-cooled engine work.

What is a shock-cooled engine?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> RST Engineering writes:
>
> > Oh, PLEEZE keep doing that. My kids need college money and I want a Hawaii
> > vacation next year. I make a lot of money from shock-cooled engine work.
>
> What is a shock-cooled engine?

Something that doesn't happen in MS flight sim.

In some real planes, however, if you've been flying in cruise for
a while, and you quickly pull the power back hard for a fast
descent, you can cool the engine quickly and unevenly, causing
stress and eventual damage.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shock_cooling_(engines)

[Rob]

Dan wrote:
> ... Short of
> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> make a plan?
>
> --Dan

I fly out of DVT also. I earned my PP-ASEL in 2002, and in the
following year I made a couple of night VFR cross country trips - one
from Tucson to DVT and one from LAS to DVT. The trip from Tucson was a
repeat of the night XC trip I took while training and it was very
comfortable and enjoyable. There is a lot of civilization along I-10
between Phoenix and Tucson, and in VMC the visual reference to the
horizon at night is pretty much as easy to maintain as in daylight.
The pre-dawn trip home from Las Vegas was another story. It was, as
you say, pretty much "look at the sectional and make a plan".
There was very little moonlight that morning, and although the weather
was clear and a million my trust in the attitude indicator was as
critical to the success of the flight as it would have been in IMC.
The flight went without a hitch, but not having flown at night away
from the comfortable blanket of city lights in a couple of years I
wouldn't make that trip today without a CFI in the right seat.

My current personal minimums with respect to night flight away from the
city now are "VFR, night, mountainous terrain - pick any two at once
but not all three". I'm just starting to work on my instrument rating
now, so that pretty much means my X-C travel is all during the day. I
didn't learn about Obstacle Departure Procedures while training for the
private certificate. Now that I know of their existence and
application I'd use them even VFR to get out of an unfamiliar airport
near any rising terrain at night.

I do frequently enjoy taking in the city lights. I just don't venture
far from the city at night these days. Familiarize yourself with the
McDowell Mountains, Camelback & Squaw Peak (renamed Piestewa Peak a few
years ago, but still referred to on the charts, by ATC, and by many if
not most locals as Squaw Peak), South Mountain (the one with all the
radio and TV towers), the White Tanks, the Sierra Estrella, and the San
Tan mountains, and you'll be pretty much good to go. Utilize the VFR
class B transition right up and over Squaw Peak - in my experience,
Phoenix Approach has never been anything but accommodating.

The little bumps right off the east end of Deer Valley can be quite
intimidating at night (and take note of this current NOTAM: DVT 08/021
DVT HILL UNKN .5 E LGTS OTS TIL 0609302359). I keep a feel for flying
around them in the dark by regularly practicing touch-and-go's at
sunset. Get a few landings in while they're still clearly visible, and
you'll have a feel for their height and location relative to your
departure profile as it gets dark. On a high DA day the bumps off the
end of 7L (the short north runway) are very much a factor.

Rob

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> In some real planes, however, if you've been flying in cruise for
> a while, and you quickly pull the power back hard for a fast
> descent, you can cool the engine quickly and unevenly, causing
> stress and eventual damage.

This seems to be more of a theory than an established fact, although
it seems plausible.

In any case, when flying over the Arizona desert, I don't think that
shock cooling of anything would be a major risk.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Trevor]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> writes:
>
> > In some real planes, however, if you've been flying in cruise for
> > a while, and you quickly pull the power back hard for a fast
> > descent, you can cool the engine quickly and unevenly, causing
> > stress and eventual damage.
>
> This seems to be more of a theory than an established fact, although
> it seems plausible.
>
> In any case, when flying over the Arizona desert, I don't think that
> shock cooling of anything would be a major risk.

That's because what your PC runs at the same temp no matter what game
you are "flying." In an actual airplane with an actual powerplant,
(especially with a blower), that can be a real concern, particularly w/
high performance powerplants, whether in Arizona or Siberia. Have a
nice day.

[Jose[_1_]]

> In any case, when flying over the Arizona desert, I don't think that
> shock cooling of anything would be a major risk.

What is the temperature of the engine? What is the temperature of the
Arizona air at 10,000 feet? What do you get when you subtract the two?

Jose
--
There are more ways to skin a cat than there are cats.
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> What is the temperature of the engine? What is the temperature of the
> Arizona air at 10,000 feet? What do you get when you subtract the two?

I give up. What are the actual numbers?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Thomas Borchert]

Mxsmanic,

> What is a shock-cooled engine?
>

<donning flak vest>

A myth.

Alternatively: The opposite of shock heating (e.g. during take-off)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Trevor,

> that can be a real concern, particularly w/
> high performance powerplants, whether in Arizona or Siberia.
>

Well, I htink it would fair to admit that damage through shock cooling
is anything but proven.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
> Oh, PLEEZE keep doing that. My kids need college money and I want a
Hawaii
> vacation next year. I make a lot of money from shock-cooled engine work.

From what I've heard, shock cooling is not a big issue on the Grummans...
Considering the way that students fly the planes, if it was an issue, it
would have presented itself before... Maybe with some of the high
performance aircraft, it might be more of an issue...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Something that doesn't happen in MS flight sim.

And some might argue that it doesn't happen that much in real aircraft
either...

http://www.avweb.com/news/maint/182883-1.html

My previous engine went to around 3000 hours with typical student use of two
throttle settings -- on and off... No problem with shock cooling... It even
still had good compressions, but the insurance company had a problem with
students renting an engine that far past TBO... I took it off leaseback and
flew it myself for quite awhile before deciding I wanted the high
compression cylinder STC and going ahead and doing an overhaul on it...

[Trevor]

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Trevor,
>
> > that can be a real concern, particularly w/
> > high performance powerplants, whether in Arizona or Siberia.
> >
>
> Well, I htink it would fair to admit that damage through shock cooling
> is anything but proven.

Well it can be hard to "prove" what causes some problems, but I would give
the powerplant that hauls my butt the benefit of the doubt and stick with
the manufacturer's advice:
http://www.lycoming.textron.com/main.jsp?bodyPage=/support/publications/keyReprints/operation/avoidSuddenCooling.html

or http://tinyurl.com/fgbq3

[Thomas Borchert]

Trevor,

> and stick with
> the manufacturer's advice:
>

You know, I'm dubious. That would keep you from doing really useful
stuff like running lean-of-peak. What the manufacturer recommends is
largely dictated by legal and marketing departments.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Doug[_1_]]

>From the Lycoming website:
"To reduce spark plug fouling and keep the cylinder cooling within the
recommended 50o per minute limit, the mixture should be left at the
lean setting used for cruise and then richened gradually during descent
from altitude. "

>From my experience it's just the first 100 degrees you have to worry
about, so that is the first two minutes. After that you can pretty much
pull the throttle back. But the key is that 50 degrees per minute on
the CHT. Lycoming says not to exceed 50 degrees per minute of cooling.

Planning descents in mountainous terrain is not trivial. You do not
want to shock cool and you do not want to be above Va due to
turbulence. Takes some planning.

As for terrain. If you are navigating VFR and you can't see the
terrain, you shouldn't be flying in the mountains. I have done PLENTY
of mountain flying in Colorado mountains, all VFR, but not at night. Of
course there are exceptions. If you fly above the highest obstacle then
you are ok. And if you are on an IFR flight plan and obeying the
terrain clearance rules you are of course ok. Both of these are hard to
do in the west without oxygen. Some pilots HAVE designed their own
terrain clearance waypoints by flying in the daytime and creating user
waypoints with altitudes along their saved route. I never wanted to
play that game, but in theory it should work if followed carefully.
Familiarity with the route helps a lot. Be careful out there.

One other item. There is a large amount of difference in the darkeness
at night. With a full moon and snow cover, one can see quite well at
night. Over heavily populated areas the ground lights create enough
light to be able to make out most of the terrain. So like in all
things, it all depends.

[RST Engineering]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> RST Engineering writes:
>>
>> > Oh, PLEEZE keep doing that. My kids need college money and I want a
>> > Hawaii
>> > vacation next year. I make a lot of money from shock-cooled engine
>> > work.
>>
>> What is a shock-cooled engine?
>
> Something that doesn't happen in MS flight sim.



PLEASE STOP FEEDING THIS FRIKKIN' TROLL!!!!!!!!!!!!

Jim

[Mike Adams[_2_]]

"Rob" > wrote:

> I fly out of DVT also.

Me too.

<snip>
> The little bumps right off the east end of Deer Valley can be quite
> intimidating at night (and take note of this current NOTAM: DVT 08/021
> DVT HILL UNKN .5 E LGTS OTS TIL 0609302359). I keep a feel for flying
> around them in the dark by regularly practicing touch-and-go's at
> sunset. Get a few landings in while they're still clearly visible, and
> you'll have a feel for their height and location relative to your
> departure profile as it gets dark. On a high DA day the bumps off the
> end of 7L (the short north runway) are very much a factor.

Yes, not a good airport for night operations. The PAPI's are your friends on 25L/R. If I'm just doing night
currency stop and go's, I'll use the south runway, (or go over to Glendale!)

Mike

[Ash Wyllie]

Matt Whiting opined

>Dan wrote:

>> My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>> were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>> terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>> paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>>
>> Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>> your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>> filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>> MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>> tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>> make a plan?

>I tend to fly IFR at night so you can always fly a full approach if you
>are really concerned. Often the light is good enough that you can still
>see the mountains and other such obstacles. Study the sectional well
>and know where the obstacles are located and you should be find.

Or just fly an approach VFR. Get flight folowing if you are worried about IFR
traffic.


-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Matt Whiting]

Ash Wyllie wrote:
> Matt Whiting opined
>
>
>>Dan wrote:
>
>
>>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>>>
>>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>>>make a plan?
>
>
>>I tend to fly IFR at night so you can always fly a full approach if you
>>are really concerned. Often the light is good enough that you can still
>>see the mountains and other such obstacles. Study the sectional well
>>and know where the obstacles are located and you should be find.
>
>
> Or just fly an approach VFR. Get flight folowing if you are worried about IFR
> traffic.

You might want to read the subject before posting. Saves the
embarrassment of making a completely irrelevant post.

Matt

[Ash Wyllie]

Matt Whiting opined

>Ash Wyllie wrote:
>> Matt Whiting opined
>>
>>
>>>Dan wrote:
>>
>>
>>>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>>>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>>>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>>>>
>>>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>>>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>>>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>>>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>>>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>>>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>>>>make a plan?
>>
>>
>>>I tend to fly IFR at night so you can always fly a full approach if you
>>>are really concerned. Often the light is good enough that you can still
>>>see the mountains and other such obstacles. Study the sectional well
>>>and know where the obstacles are located and you should be find.
>>
>>
>> Or just fly an approach VFR. Get flight following if you are worried about
>> IFR traffic.

>You might want to read the subject before posting. Saves the
>embarrassment of making a completely irrelevant post.

Quoting from the original post:

"...However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
filing IFR..."

I think that I am on topic. Perhaps I shouldn't have attached my suggestion to
the end of your post, but I didn't think that it mattered where I commented.

-ash
Cthulhu in 2005!
Why wait for nature?

[Matt Whiting]

Ash Wyllie wrote:
> Matt Whiting opined
>
>
>>Ash Wyllie wrote:
>>
>>>Matt Whiting opined
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>>Dan wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
>>>>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
>>>>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>>>>>
>>>>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
>>>>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
>>>>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
>>>>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
>>>>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
>>>>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
>>>>>make a plan?
>>>
>>>
>>>>I tend to fly IFR at night so you can always fly a full approach if you
>>>>are really concerned. Often the light is good enough that you can still
>>>>see the mountains and other such obstacles. Study the sectional well
>>>>and know where the obstacles are located and you should be find.
>>>
>>>
>>>Or just fly an approach VFR. Get flight following if you are worried about
>>>IFR traffic.
>
>
>>You might want to read the subject before posting. Saves the
>>embarrassment of making a completely irrelevant post.
>
>
> Quoting from the original post:
>
> "...However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> filing IFR..."
>
> I think that I am on topic. Perhaps I shouldn't have attached my suggestion to
> the end of your post, but I didn't think that it mattered where I commented.

It is considered good net form to reply to a message that actually has
something in it relevant to your reply. And this is still not the case
as even what you quoted mentions nothing about IFR traffic.

Matt

[Timmay]

> >>>>Dan wrote:
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> >>>>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> >>>>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> >>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
> >>>>>
> >>>>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> >>>>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> >>>>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> >>>>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> >>>>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> >>>>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> >>>>>make a plan?


Descend over lit checkpoints, whether that be an airport or the
neighboring city. It's that simple. I'll never descend over darkness.

[vincent p. norris]

>>>>>>> Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
>> >>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
>> >>>>>
>>>>>>>> Any "systems" or tricks to share?>
>
>Descend over lit checkpoints, whether that be an airport or the
>neighboring city. It's that simple. I'll never descend over darkness.

That is good advice. However, in the military, a procedure we used,
for example in approaching Albuquerque, was to hold cruise altitude
until ABQ's lights came into view. Then continue for a minute or
two, and then start a gradual let-down keeping ABQ's lights in the
same position (the way we hold the runway end in constant position
when on long final). So long as the lights are in view like that,
there is nothing solid between the airplane and the lights.

vince norris

[[email protected]]

Shock cooling is probably a myth. I believe both Light Plane
Maintainence and Aviation Consumer have taken that position. It MAY be
true in extreme cases for turbos. According to their research, every
takeoff causes more thermal shock than any descent. As for the
manufacturers, Lycoming recommends running at 50 deg rich of peak,
which G. Braly's research has shown is the absolute worst place to
operate, so they may or may not know what is best about shock cooling.
I certainly wouldn't let a fear of shock cooling my engine cause me to
make an unsafe night(or day) approach, that's for sure. It won't cost
you to use a gentle descent to avoid the possibility of shock cooling,
so that is how I fly, but it probably doesn't matter.

Bud

Timmay wrote:
> > >>>>Dan wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>
> > >>>>>My early years of flying were spent in the Midwest where as long as you
> > >>>>>were over 2000 MSL, there were very few obstacles to hit and no
> > >>>>>terrain. Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> > >>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
> > >>>>>
> > >>>>>Choosing a cruise altitude is easy (well above anything even close to
> > >>>>>your route). However, what I worry about is my letdown to pattern
> > >>>>>altitude at the destination airport as well as departure. Short of
> > >>>>>filing IFR (which carries with it Oxygen requirements for some local
> > >>>>>MEAs) what other strategies do you all use? Any "systems" or
> > >>>>>tricks to share, or is it pretty much just look at the sectional and
> > >>>>>make a plan?
>
>
> Descend over lit checkpoints, whether that be an airport or the
> neighboring city. It's that simple. I'll never descend over darkness.

[Timmay]

vincent p. norris wrote:
> >>>>>>> Now that I have moved out West (Phoenix) I am increasingly
> >> >>>>>paranoid about hitting terrain at night.
> >> >>>>>
> >>>>>>>> Any "systems" or tricks to share?>
> >
> >Descend over lit checkpoints, whether that be an airport or the
> >neighboring city. It's that simple. I'll never descend over darkness.
>
> That is good advice. However, in the military, a procedure we used,
> for example in approaching Albuquerque, was to hold cruise altitude
> until ABQ's lights came into view. Then continue for a minute or
> two, and then start a gradual let-down keeping ABQ's lights in the
> same position (the way we hold the runway end in constant position
> when on long final). So long as the lights are in view like that,
> there is nothing solid between the airplane and the lights.
>
> vince norris

That would work too. I teach landings practically the same way, if you
hold the runway in the same position as your straight-ahead reference,
and maintain airspeed while you come down, you'll hit right where
you're pointing.

Coming into ABQ from the east at night would certainly be something I'd
watch myself do, that's one heck of a ridge out there.