Ferrying Aircraft

[[email protected]]

Well, being short of cash to fly with and reading about NW_PILOT's trip
of a lifetime ferrying a 172 across the Atlantic has left me wondering:
Is a commerical pilot certificate required to ferry an airplane for
someone? I think the answer is yes, even if I'm not being paid to fly,
if they pick up the tab for the plane & fuel. Am I correct?

John Stevens
PP-ASEL (which stands for "Poor Pilot-Airplane Single Engine Land")

[150flivver]

wrote:
> Well, being short of cash to fly with and reading about NW_PILOT's trip
> of a lifetime ferrying a 172 across the Atlantic has left me wondering:
> Is a commerical pilot certificate required to ferry an airplane for
> someone? I think the answer is yes, even if I'm not being paid to fly,
> if they pick up the tab for the plane & fuel. Am I correct?
>
> John Stevens
> PP-ASEL (which stands for "Poor Pilot-Airplane Single Engine Land")

You are receiving compensation in the form of flying time and thus need
a
commercial license.

[Jim Macklin]

Sounds like you understand the rules. Any ferry pilot going
over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument rating, a
passport, and tax and export/import certificates. You will
have your papers examined by customs at every border
crossing.




> wrote in message
oups.com...
| Well, being short of cash to fly with and reading about
NW_PILOT's trip
| of a lifetime ferrying a 172 across the Atlantic has left
me wondering:
| Is a commerical pilot certificate required to ferry an
airplane for
| someone? I think the answer is yes, even if I'm not being
paid to fly,
| if they pick up the tab for the plane & fuel. Am I
correct?
|
| John Stevens
| PP-ASEL (which stands for "Poor Pilot-Airplane Single
Engine Land")
|

[Jules]

You don't have to be the owner of the airplane to do it with a private
certificate.





wrote:
> Well, being short of cash to fly with and reading about NW_PILOT's trip
> of a lifetime ferrying a 172 across the Atlantic has left me wondering:
> Is a commerical pilot certificate required to ferry an airplane for
> someone? I think the answer is yes, even if I'm not being paid to fly,
> if they pick up the tab for the plane & fuel. Am I correct?
>
> John Stevens
> PP-ASEL (which stands for "Poor Pilot-Airplane Single Engine Land")
>

[Stefan]

Jim Macklin schrieb:

> Any ferry pilot going
> over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument rating, a

An instrument rating is defintely not required.

Stefan

[Emily[_1_]]

Stefan wrote:
> Jim Macklin schrieb:
>
>> Any ferry pilot going over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
>> rating, a
>
> An instrument rating is defintely not required.
>
> Stefan
Why is a commercial?

[Stache]

wrote:

John you can use your PPL for this no special certificate is required
as long as you hold the rating as a private pilot. In some case you
may have to be instrument rated depending on the length of the flight
and weather conditions.

Stache

[Stefan]

Emily schrieb:

>>> Any ferry pilot going over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
>>> rating, a

>> An instrument rating is defintely not required.

> Why is a commercial?

*I* didn't say it was. (It might if you're ferrying for someone else,
but I really don't know so I didn't comment this part.)

Stefan

[Jim Macklin]

If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you can
land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are further
apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly IFR.



"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin schrieb:
|
| > Any ferry pilot going
| > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument rating, a
|
| An instrument rating is defintely not required.
|
| Stefan

[Stefan]

Jim Macklin schrieb:
> If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you can
> land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are further
> apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly IFR.
>
>
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> |
> | > Any ferry pilot going
> | > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument rating, a
> |
> | An instrument rating is defintely not required.
> |
> | Stefan
>
>

It's one question what "the owners" expect (why would you know this,
anyway), but it's an entirely different question what's *required*.

Stefan

[Jim Macklin]

The owners of any property expect to get it back. Insurance
companies set requirements. US Customs doesn't care whether
a pilot is legal." Foreign nations do care and will check
ALL paperwork on the airplane, the insurance and the pilot's
certificates.

So required might mean several things, In 1927, an
instrument rating was not required [did even exist]. In
WWII, most bomber pilots could actually fly the gauges and
fly straight and level.

Remember Flight 19, a bunch of Navy pilots got lost over/in
the waters near Florida and have not been seen since.


"Stefan" > wrote in message
. ..
| Jim Macklin schrieb:
| > If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you
can
| > land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are
further
| > apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly
IFR.
| >
| >
| >
| > "Stefan" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
| > |
| > | > Any ferry pilot going
| > | > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
rating, a
| > |
| > | An instrument rating is defintely not required.
| > |
| > | Stefan
| >
| >
|
| It's one question what "the owners" expect (why would you
know this,
| anyway), but it's an entirely different question what's
*required*.
|
| Stefan

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you can
> land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are further
> apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly IFR.

I'm not sure if its still the case but I know at one time Cessna
prohibited its factory delivery pilots from flying IFR when deliverying
planes.

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

I'm not sure what you base that on. The courts have ruled that logging
free flight time is commercial and requires a commercial rating.

-Robert, CFII


Stache wrote:
> wrote:
>
> John you can use your PPL for this no special certificate is required
> as long as you hold the rating as a private pilot. In some case you
> may have to be instrument rated depending on the length of the flight
> and weather conditions.
>
> Stache

[Stefan]

Jim Macklin schrieb:
> The owners of any property expect to get it back. Insurance
> companies set requirements. US Customs doesn't care whether
> a pilot is legal." Foreign nations do care and will check
> ALL paperwork on the airplane, the insurance and the pilot's
> certificates.
>
> So required might mean several things, In 1927, an
> instrument rating was not required [did even exist]. In
> WWII, most bomber pilots could actually fly the gauges and
> fly straight and level.
>
> Remember Flight 19, a bunch of Navy pilots got lost over/in
> the waters near Florida and have not been seen since.
>
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> . ..
> | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> | > If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you
> can
> | > land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are
> further
> | > apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly
> IFR.
> | >
> | >
> | >
> | > "Stefan" > wrote in message
> | > ...
> | > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> | > |
> | > | > Any ferry pilot going
> | > | > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
> rating, a
> | > |
> | > | An instrument rating is defintely not required.
> | > |
> | > | Stefan
> | >
> | >
> |
> | It's one question what "the owners" expect (why would you
> know this,
> | anyway), but it's an entirely different question what's
> *required*.
> |
> | Stefan


You still didn't explain why an instrument rating is *required* to ferry
a plane from USA to Europe. Not surprizing, because I know several which
have been ferried to Europe with VFR-only equipment and from VFR-only
pilots. I can't present references to 1927, WW2 or the US Navy, though.

Stefan

[Jim Macklin]

But all the Cessna pilots were IR. The company just didn't
want them to be flying IFR.


"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you
can
| > land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are
further
| > apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly
IFR.
|
| I'm not sure if its still the case but I know at one time
Cessna
| prohibited its factory delivery pilots from flying IFR
when deliverying
| planes.
|
| -Robert
|

[Jim Macklin]

Apply for a job as a ferry pilot and if you don't have at
least a commercial and instrument rating, the insurance
company will "require" you to get rated.

What is required in the USA may or may not apply on a
delivery flight. If the airplane carries an "N number" USA
rules apply, but if it already has a G or D or F or what
ever. that nations rules apply.

Buy your own and fly anywhere you want, you can self-insure.
Fly somebody else's airplane and they will probably
"require" that you are a fully qualified pilot.

It really comes down to the question, is a pilot's
certificate required in order to fly an airplane? The
answer is clearly, NO. You can buy, beg or steal an
airplane and no license or insurance is "required."



"Stefan" > wrote in message
. ..
| Jim Macklin schrieb:
| > The owners of any property expect to get it back.
Insurance
| > companies set requirements. US Customs doesn't care
whether
| > a pilot is legal." Foreign nations do care and will
check
| > ALL paperwork on the airplane, the insurance and the
pilot's
| > certificates.
| >
| > So required might mean several things, In 1927, an
| > instrument rating was not required [did even exist]. In
| > WWII, most bomber pilots could actually fly the gauges
and
| > fly straight and level.
| >
| > Remember Flight 19, a bunch of Navy pilots got lost
over/in
| > the waters near Florida and have not been seen since.
| >
| >
| > "Stefan" > wrote in message
| > . ..
| > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
| > | > If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad,
you
| > can
| > | > land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are
| > further
| > | > apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can
fly
| > IFR.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > "Stefan" > wrote in message
| > | >
...
| > | > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
| > | > |
| > | > | > Any ferry pilot going
| > | > | > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
| > rating, a
| > | > |
| > | > | An instrument rating is defintely not required.
| > | > |
| > | > | Stefan
| > | >
| > | >
| > |
| > | It's one question what "the owners" expect (why would
you
| > know this,
| > | anyway), but it's an entirely different question
what's
| > *required*.
| > |
| > | Stefan
|
|
| You still didn't explain why an instrument rating is
*required* to ferry
| a plane from USA to Europe. Not surprizing, because I know
several which
| have been ferried to Europe with VFR-only equipment and
from VFR-only
| pilots. I can't present references to 1927, WW2 or the US
Navy, though.
|
| Stefan

[Stefan]

Jim Macklin schrieb:
> Apply for a job as a ferry pilot and if you don't have at
> least a commercial and instrument rating, the insurance
> company will "require" you to get rated.
>
> What is required in the USA may or may not apply on a
> delivery flight. If the airplane carries an "N number" USA
> rules apply, but if it already has a G or D or F or what
> ever. that nations rules apply.
>
> Buy your own and fly anywhere you want, you can self-insure.
> Fly somebody else's airplane and they will probably
> "require" that you are a fully qualified pilot.
>
> It really comes down to the question, is a pilot's
> certificate required in order to fly an airplane? The
> answer is clearly, NO. You can buy, beg or steal an
> airplane and no license or insurance is "required."
>
>
>
> "Stefan" > wrote in message
> . ..
> | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> | > The owners of any property expect to get it back.
> Insurance
> | > companies set requirements. US Customs doesn't care
> whether
> | > a pilot is legal." Foreign nations do care and will
> check
> | > ALL paperwork on the airplane, the insurance and the
> pilot's
> | > certificates.
> | >
> | > So required might mean several things, In 1927, an
> | > instrument rating was not required [did even exist]. In
> | > WWII, most bomber pilots could actually fly the gauges
> and
> | > fly straight and level.
> | >
> | > Remember Flight 19, a bunch of Navy pilots got lost
> over/in
> | > the waters near Florida and have not been seen since.
> | >
> | >
> | > "Stefan" > wrote in message
> | > . ..
> | > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> | > | > If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad,
> you
> | > can
> | > | > land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are
> | > further
> | > | > apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can
> fly
> | > IFR.
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > | > "Stefan" > wrote in message
> | > | >
> ...
> | > | > | Jim Macklin schrieb:
> | > | > |
> | > | > | > Any ferry pilot going
> | > | > | > over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument
> | > rating, a
> | > | > |
> | > | > | An instrument rating is defintely not required.
> | > | > |
> | > | > | Stefan
> | > | >
> | > | >
> | > |
> | > | It's one question what "the owners" expect (why would
> you
> | > know this,
> | > | anyway), but it's an entirely different question
> what's
> | > *required*.
> | > |
> | > | Stefan
> |
> |
> | You still didn't explain why an instrument rating is
> *required* to ferry
> | a plane from USA to Europe. Not surprizing, because I know
> several which
> | have been ferried to Europe with VFR-only equipment and
> from VFR-only
> | pilots. I can't present references to 1927, WW2 or the US
> Navy, though.
> |
> | Stefan


The OP didn't ask what it takes to get a job, but what is required to
ferry fly a plane. Did it ever come to your mind that all owners are not
equal? Besides, VFR pilots *are* "fully qualified pilots". Fully
qualified to fly in VMC, be it locally or intercontinentally.

Stefan

[Bob Gardner]

Same thing for Piper...no night or IFR. I had to leave a plane in Baton
Rouge due to extensive low ceilings and go back to get it a week later.

Bob Gardner

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Jim Macklin wrote:
>> If you are over Kansas and the weather turns bad, you can
>> land anywhere. Over the ocean, landing spots are further
>> apart. The owner's expect that any ferry pilot can fly IFR.
>
> I'm not sure if its still the case but I know at one time Cessna
> prohibited its factory delivery pilots from flying IFR when deliverying
> planes.
>
> -Robert
>

[Stubby]

I don't have a FAR/AIM here, but I do seem to remember there are a
number of exceptions that allow things such as ferrying planes, flying
around political candidates, and humanitarian work such as delivering
patients. Correct me if I'm wrong.



Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I'm not sure what you base that on. The courts have ruled that logging
> free flight time is commercial and requires a commercial rating.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>
>
> Stache wrote:
>> wrote:
>>
>> John you can use your PPL for this no special certificate is required
>> as long as you hold the rating as a private pilot. In some case you
>> may have to be instrument rated depending on the length of the flight
>> and weather conditions.
>>
>> Stache
>

[Sylvain]

Stefan wrote:

>> Any ferry pilot going
>> over-seas needs a commercial and an instrument rating, a
>
> An instrument rating is defintely not required.

it is required if you intend to fly above 6000 feet
in the NAT region; some states (Canada and Denmark --
for Groenland -- if I am not mistaken) requires instrument
rating to fly the portion of NAT region under their
jurisdiction; See Advisory Circular 91-70 as
a good starting point.

Note that I haven't done it yet, but it's on my list of
things to do before I die ;-)

--Sylvain

[Jim Logajan]

Stubby > wrote:
> I don't have a FAR/AIM here, but I do seem to remember there are a
> number of exceptions that allow things such as ferrying planes, flying
> around political candidates, and humanitarian work such as delivering
> patients. Correct me if I'm wrong.

I think the following is the relevant regulation:

§ 61.113 Private pilot privileges and limitations: Pilot in command.

(a) Except as provided in paragraphs (b) through (g) of this section, no
person who holds a private pilot certificate may act as pilot in command
of an aircraft that is carrying passengers or property for compensation
or hire; nor may that person, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft.

(b) A private pilot may, for compensation or hire, act as pilot in
command of an aircraft in connection with any business or employment if:

(1) The flight is only incidental to that business or employment; and

(2) The aircraft does not carry passengers or property for compensation
or hire.

(c) A private pilot may not pay less than the pro rata share of the
operating expenses of a flight with passengers, provided the expenses
involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees.

(d) A private pilot may act as pilot in command of an aircraft used in a
passenger-carrying airlift sponsored by a charitable organization
described in paragraph (d)(7) of this section, and for which the
passengers make a donation to the organization, when the following
requirements are met:

(1) The sponsor of the airlift notifies the FAA Flight Standards District
Office with jurisdiction over the area concerned at least 7 days before
the event and furnishes—

(i) A signed letter from the sponsor that shows the name of the sponsor,
the purpose of the charitable event, the date and time of the event, and
the location of the event; and

(ii) A photocopy of each pilot in command's pilot certificate, medical
certificate, and logbook entries that show the pilot is current in
accordance with §§61.56 and 61.57 of this part and has logged at least
200 hours of flight time.

(2) The flight is conducted from a public airport that is adequate for
the aircraft to be used, or from another airport that has been approved
by the FAA for the operation.

(3) No aerobatic or formation flights are conducted.

(4) Each aircraft used for the charitable event holds a standard
airworthiness certificate.

(5) Each aircraft used for the charitable event is airworthy and complies
with the applicable requirements of subpart E of part 91 of this chapter.

(6) Each flight for the charitable event is made during day VFR
conditions.

(7) The charitable organization is an organization identified as such by
the U.S. Department of Treasury.

(e) A private pilot may be reimbursed for aircraft operating expenses
that are directly related to search and location operations, provided the
expenses involve only fuel, oil, airport expenditures, or rental fees,
and the operation is sanctioned and under the direction and control of:

(1) A local, State, or Federal agency; or

(2) An organization that conducts search and location operations.

(f) A private pilot who is an aircraft salesman and who has at least 200
hours of logged flight time may demonstrate an aircraft in flight to a
prospective buyer.

(g) A private pilot who meets the requirements of §61.69 may act as a
pilot in command of an aircraft towing a glider or unpowered ultralight
vehicle.

[Stefan]

Sylvain schrieb:

>> An instrument rating is defintely not required.

> it is required if you intend to fly above 6000 feet
> in the NAT region;

An instrument rating is also required if you intend to fly above 18000ft
in USA airspace, so what's your point? Fact is, you *can* cross the
atlantic VFR. And it has been done so many times.


Stefan

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> I'm not sure what you base that on. The courts have ruled that logging
> free flight time is commercial and requires a commercial rating.
>
> -Robert, CFII
>
>

But there is no requirement that you must log every flight, and even if
you did log such flight there is no requirement to show this
information anyone except what is required to prove currency.

[Robert M. Gary]

The problem will happen if you put yourself out for hire. If you post
an ad to ferry planes, clearly you are commerical. However, if a friend
happens to need his plane moved you should be ok as a private.
Insurance will be another thing.

-Robert


Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:

> But there is no requirement that you must log every flight, and even if
> you did log such flight there is no requirement to show this
> information anyone except what is required to prove currency.

[Robert M. Gary]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> But all the Cessna pilots were IR. The company just didn't
> want them to be flying IFR.

I'm sure its a job requirement, because it can be. There is no national
shortage for single engine Cessna drivers. When there are more pilots
than jobs you can be picky.

-Robert

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> The problem will happen if you put yourself out for hire. If you post
> an ad to ferry planes, clearly you are commerical. However, if a friend
> happens to need his plane moved you should be ok as a private.
> Insurance will be another thing.

I've had this happen before... Quite a few years ago, a buddy of mine bought
a new plane, although he was still workiing on his PPL... I flew up to the
seller's location with him via Southwest and then I flew it back to HOU...
As a student pilot, he was definitely not PIC... It wasn't a commercial
endeavor nor did I consider the logging of the flight time to be any sort of
compensation -- it was just helping out a buddy... Hell, when I needed my
plane moved from Iowa back down to Houston, he did it for me since he was
already up there for Oshkosh anyway and it saved me a trip via commercial
airline doing the shuffle myself... Regardless of what is written in the
FARs, I don't think a friend helping out a friend in such a situation should
be classified as a commercial flight...

[Huck]

It all comes down to who looks and what that person{faa} deems as
payment. If you advertise as a ferry pilot you need a comercial period.
If you are just helping a buddy move an airplane a private is fine
because you are not "holding out" or receiveing payment. I also say
lets have some common sense here people if you think that a brand new
private pilot should be moving airplanes all over the country with
little or no experience is just silly. I have pilots that have in
excess of 200-300 hrs but have never left the state. In this day and
age of TFR's and the crazy weather that we seem to be having these
days. Please take your time and plan everything well. I think this
takes the training that a commercial rating{preferably IFR rated}
supplies.

Matt Tiberii
Comm ASEL AMEL ASES INSTRUMENT
CFI CFII



Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > The problem will happen if you put yourself out for hire. If you post
> > an ad to ferry planes, clearly you are commerical. However, if a friend
> > happens to need his plane moved you should be ok as a private.
> > Insurance will be another thing.
>
> I've had this happen before... Quite a few years ago, a buddy of mine bought
> a new plane, although he was still workiing on his PPL... I flew up to the
> seller's location with him via Southwest and then I flew it back to HOU...
> As a student pilot, he was definitely not PIC... It wasn't a commercial
> endeavor nor did I consider the logging of the flight time to be any sort of
> compensation -- it was just helping out a buddy... Hell, when I needed my
> plane moved from Iowa back down to Houston, he did it for me since he was
> already up there for Oshkosh anyway and it saved me a trip via commercial
> airline doing the shuffle myself... Regardless of what is written in the
> FARs, I don't think a friend helping out a friend in such a situation should
> be classified as a commercial flight...

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Huck wrote:
> It all comes down to who looks and what that person{faa} deems as
> payment. If you advertise as a ferry pilot you need a comercial period.
> If you are just helping a buddy move an airplane a private is fine
> because you are not "holding out" or receiveing payment. I also say
> lets have some common sense here people if you think that a brand new
> private pilot should be moving airplanes all over the country with
> little or no experience is just silly. I have pilots that have in
> excess of 200-300 hrs but have never left the state. In this day and
> age of TFR's and the crazy weather that we seem to be having these
> days. Please take your time and plan everything well. I think this
> takes the training that a commercial rating{preferably IFR rated}
> supplies.
>
> Matt Tiberii
> Comm ASEL AMEL ASES INSTRUMENT
> CFI CFII
>
>
>

I agree with you for the most part, but except for TFR's I don't think
weather is any worse nowadays than it used to be. In fact, we have much
better tools for weather avoidance and navigation than in the past, so
all other things being equal a pilot is better equipped and safer today
for a ferry trip than in the past. However, that does not mean that a
newly minted PP should attempt such a thing.

[Huck]

You are sooooo correct in dealing with weather I would bot even think
of going cross counrty without my 496. It is so awsome, I brought a
C-210T back to SC from tulsa last tues night and it was an integal part
of making a go/nogo descision plus with O2 you can go 25000 in t210 so
we were able to go all the way back without even getting wet.
I take it back I would still do it without the weather but i would
have had to stop and double check front lines and so on and so forth
ATC will help tremendously but I feel it is still the PIC's duty to not
get into a position were ATC needs to help if it can be avoided.
{sometimes it cant} Well good luck to all!
matty
Andrew Sarangan wrote:
> Huck wrote:
> > It all comes down to who looks and what that person{faa} deems as
> > payment. If you advertise as a ferry pilot you need a comercial period.
> > If you are just helping a buddy move an airplane a private is fine
> > because you are not "holding out" or receiveing payment. I also say
> > lets have some common sense here people if you think that a brand new
> > private pilot should be moving airplanes all over the country with
> > little or no experience is just silly. I have pilots that have in
> > excess of 200-300 hrs but have never left the state. In this day and
> > age of TFR's and the crazy weather that we seem to be having these
> > days. Please take your time and plan everything well. I think this
> > takes the training that a commercial rating{preferably IFR rated}
> > supplies.
> >
> > Matt Tiberii
> > Comm ASEL AMEL ASES INSTRUMENT
> > CFI CFII
> >
> >
> >
>
> I agree with you for the most part, but except for TFR's I don't think
> weather is any worse nowadays than it used to be. In fact, we have much
> better tools for weather avoidance and navigation than in the past, so
> all other things being equal a pilot is better equipped and safer today
> for a ferry trip than in the past. However, that does not mean that a
> newly minted PP should attempt such a thing.