Which Two Place Club Ship?

[ContestID67]

My home club is in the beginning stages of research on the purchase of
a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on what you would like
to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.

We would like to ask you a few questions;

- What two place gliders are owned by your club?
- What were the considerations when your purchased those gliders?
- Which glider would you purchase again?
- Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship? Why? Pros/cons?
- Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside is this in a
hangar or trailer?
- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disassembly
by club members?
- Does the club supply parachutes?
- What instruments do you consider necessary beyond altimeter, ASI,
compass, mech vario?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

- John

[BTIZ]

"ContestID67" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My home club is in the beginning stages of research on the purchase of
> a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on what you would like
> to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.
>
> We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
> - What two place gliders are owned by your club?
SGS 2-33, Grob 103

> - What were the considerations when your purchased those gliders?
2-33.. primary training.. Grob 103 advance training and transition to glass
single seat

> - Which glider would you purchase again? both.. but would prefer a ASK-21
> over the Grob 103

> - Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship? Why? Pros/cons?
either.. a 2 seat metal ship would be an L-13 or L-23.. we've lost two L-13
to spoiler vs speed brake handle confusion... we have no hangers to store
glass.. metal would hold up better to the elements

> - Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside is this in a
> hangar or trailer? Outside.. two seat.. no trailer available and hard to
> put together, no hangers available

> - If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disassembly
> by club members? Not everyone pays attention to assembly training of a
> large Glass Bird.. can take 4 people and an hour for the Grob 103

> - Does the club supply parachutes? Only 1, for the single seat glass

> - What instruments do you consider necessary beyond altimeter, ASI,
> compass, mech vario? Audio Vario, Radio, with boom mic and ppt switch

>
> Thanks in advance for your responses.
>
> - John
>

[Charles Yeates]

> we have no hangers to store glass.. metal would hold up better to the elements

Polyurethane coated glass stands up to the elements very well

>>- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disassembly
>>by club members? Not everyone pays attention to assembly training of a
>>large Glass Bird.. can take 4 people and an hour for the Grob 103

Two people with a wing dolly can assemble a PW-6 in twenty minutes -- my
wife and I do it every flying day --

Ship has performance of an ASK21 with esier ground handling too

[Al Eddie]

At 21:12 18 September 2006, Contestid67 wrote:
>My home club is in the beginning stages of research
>on the >purchase of a new/used two place glider. Rather
>than focus >on what you would like to own, we want to
>focus on what you >currently do own.
>
>We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
>- What two place gliders are owned by your club?

3 x Puchacz

>- What were the considerations when your purchased
>those gliders?

Reasonably priced glass 2-seater with ease of handling
and able to fulfil the entire training syllabus requirements

>- Which glider would you purchase again?

Same again

>- Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship?
> Why? Pros/cons?

With limited range of aluminum types, why bother...?

>- Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside
>is this in a
>hangar or trailer?

Kept rigged in hangar.

>- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disasse
>>mbly by club members?

Assembly / disassembly is rather clunky however not
undertaken frequently

>- Does the club supply parachutes?

Yes


>- What instruments do you consider necessary beyond
>>altimeter, ASI, compass, mech vario?

Audio vario - a must in all gliders

>Thanks in advance for your responses.

>- John

You're welcome.

Al

[HL Falbaum]

see below
--
Hartley Falbaum
Georgia USA

"ContestID67" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My home club is in the beginning stages of research on the purchase of
> a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on what you would like
> to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.
>
> We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
> - What two place gliders are owned by your club?
ASK21, 2 each. Previously we owned a G103 and several
L-13's

> - What were the considerations when your purchased those gliders?
Ease of assembly, for XC and glass transition trainning

> - Which glider would you purchase again?

ASK21
> - Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship? Why? Pros/cons?

Glass. Ease of assembly. Ease of repair--even small damage
is a major big deal to repair in a metal ship.
There are lots of llittle sharp edges in a Blanik that make you bleed. As a
CFIG, I found the view from the back seat
terrible! The Blanik is very intolerant of tail first landings. OTOH, the
K21 cannot do realistic spin training without a mod
kit to move the CG back.

> - Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside is this in a
> hangar or trailer?

Hangar now. Blaniks were stored outside. The Southern
climate encourages corrosion--and fabric deterioration.
Have had the glass in trailers before
> - If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disassembly
> by club members?

Yes---many members forget how quickly. They also won't
assemble as readily and so the ship is underutilized
> - Does the club supply parachutes?

Yes
> - What instruments do you consider necessary beyond altimeter, ASI,
> compass, mech vario?

Radio, Audio vario necessary. Boom Mike and PTT switch
highly desirable
>
> Thanks in advance for your responses.
>
> - John
>

[[email protected]]

> - What two place gliders are owned by your club?

Blanik L-23

> - What were the considerations when your purchased those gliders?

Unknown as I wasn't a member of the club at the time. The L-23 was
bought to replace a L-13 that was destroyed in a wind storm. I believe
the club membership at the time thought another Blanik would be a good
fit for the club.

> - Which glider would you purchase again?

If we had the funds we would like an ASK-21 to complement the Blanik
and also to prepare club pilots to fly our SGS 1-35. (Plus I find the
-21 a fun sailplane to fly)

> - Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship? Why? Pros/cons?

Aluminum is better due to our use of the Blanik as our training
aircraft. A glass ship would have to be assembled every time we would
want to fly. Due to our location in the Mojave desert glass wouldn't
hold up as well being tied down outside like our Blanik is.

> - Does the club supply parachutes?

Yes, we have two.

> - What instruments do you consider necessary beyond altimeter, ASI,
> compass, mech vario?

Audio Vario is a necessity for us. A G-meter is a nice to have.

Alex
Sierra Soaring Club
azobell at yahoo.com

[[email protected]]

You haven't specified any financial constraints, so...
Get a Duo Discus, with a good trailer and solo assembly rig.

We have a small syndicate/club. I assemble the Duo myself
and I'm ready to fly in the time many clubs take to unpack a hangar.
Easy to fly, suitable for primary instruction through advanced XC.

Of course, you're going to spend a bit more money than
some of the other options discussed, but it will retain its
value with very low maintenance costs, and you will never
be dissatisfied with performance or suitability for transition
training. Go fly it in a contest with a more experienced
pilot if you want to learn something (our Duo is featured
in the movie "A Fine Week of Soaring" with Karl Striedieck).

Get it equipped with two parachutes, and an ILEC SN10
varior/flight computer with Garmin GPS-35.

Only issues with club member assembly/disassembly: once
I dinged the gear doors putting it into the trailer, so we bought a
spare set of gear doors so it can be easily field repaired if
it happens again.

For clubs that own a Duo, its first out of the hangar in the
AM for primary training, some XC during the mid-day, and
then back to primary training late afternoon until dusk.

This is not at all crazy or out-of-reach for a small group.
Think seriously about it !

Best Regards, Dave

[Surfer!]

You don't mention what level of training it will be used for -
presumably ab initios?

We have two K21s. They are stored in a hanger so just get pulled out
when we use them, they are not constantly being assembled &
disassembled. The club also supplied the parachutes, and has a
parachute room with a bit of background heat and slatted wood shelves to
keep them in. They have identical instruments, but the really useful
ones you don't mention are an audio vario, and a radio.

I cannot comment on questions 2, 3 & 4.

They are very forgiving to fly, and very, very hard to spin - a spin
nearly always rapidly turns into a spiral dive. The air brakes are
powerful enough - I have heard that they are weak on the Grobs. So far
as I know all of us have managed to fit into them by hook or by crook.

Both of them have cracks in the front canopy from the DV panel (properly
stopped with a drilled hole & glued), not sure about the rear canopy.
They are easier to handle on the ground than some of the single-seaters
as it needs a lot less weight to push the nose down. Both of them have
a rear wheel instead of a skid.

The most tedious thing flying them is getting the trimmer set right, so
it works but isn't so tight that it's hard to move the trim knob and the
feel is removed from the stick.

Also, a K21 can be adapted (both seats) for being flown by paraplegics
by having a hand-operated rudder. Each seat is adapted independently of
the other, so you can have two paraplegics, two able-bodied or one of
each either way round.

You can argue the toss as to if it's better to teach ab initios on the
same kind of glider throughout, or to swap around.

In message om>,
ContestID67 > writes
>My home club is in the beginning stages of research on the purchase of
>a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on what you would like
>to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.
>
>We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
>- What two place gliders are owned by your club?
>- What were the considerations when your purchased those gliders?
>- Which glider would you purchase again?
>- Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship? Why? Pros/cons?
>- Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside is this in a
>hangar or trailer?
>- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disassembly
>by club members?
>- Does the club supply parachutes?
>- What instruments do you consider necessary beyond altimeter, ASI,
>compass, mech vario?
>
>Thanks in advance for your responses.
>
>- John
>

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Paul T]

You might find this link usefull if considering one
of the higher performance ships - for all round ability,
versatility and cost/performance ratio I think a DG505
is probably hard to beat as a higher end club ship:-
http://www.canberragliding.org/Gliding/Addition.html

[Nigel Pocock]

At 21:12 18 September 2006, Contestid67 wrote:
>My home club is in the beginning stages of research
>on the purchase of
>a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on
>what you would like
>to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.
>
>We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
>- What two place gliders are owned by your club?

9x ASK13
1x ASK21
1x Duo discus
1x DG1000
1x DG1000 turbo on order


>- What were the considerations when your purchased
>those gliders?

The ASK13s are ideal ab-initeo trainers Good visibility,
robust, spinable etc. we have them all fitted out with
the same instrumentataion and tailwheels.
The ASK21 is used for aerobatic training.
The duo and DG1000 used for cross country training
and glass conversion.

>- Which glider would you purchase again?

DG1000t on order for training to turbo gliders.
Some debate about possible replacements for the K13
going on at the moment.

>- Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship?
> Why? Pros/cons?

Glass. No suitable metal ships available.

>- Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside
>is this in a
>hangar or trailer?

All hangered.

>- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disasse
>>mbly
>by club members?

Many hands make light work, but you need a leader who
knows what they are doing. any of the above can be
rigged in 40 min.

>- Does the club supply parachutes?

Yes, plus spares.

>- What instruments do you consider necessary beyond
>altimeter, ASI,
>compass, mech vario?

Audio vario essential at our busy club.

>
>Thanks in advance for your responses.
>
>- John
>
>

[Jeremy Zawodny]

wrote:
> You haven't specified any financial constraints, so...
> Get a Duo Discus, with a good trailer and solo assembly rig.
>
> We have a small syndicate/club. I assemble the Duo myself
> and I'm ready to fly in the time many clubs take to unpack a hangar.
> Easy to fly, suitable for primary instruction through advanced XC.
>
> Of course, you're going to spend a bit more money than
> some of the other options discussed, but it will retain its
> value with very low maintenance costs, and you will never
> be dissatisfied with performance or suitability for transition
> training. Go fly it in a contest with a more experienced
> pilot if you want to learn something (our Duo is featured
> in the movie "A Fine Week of Soaring" with Karl Striedieck).
>
> Get it equipped with two parachutes, and an ILEC SN10
> varior/flight computer with Garmin GPS-35.
>
> Only issues with club member assembly/disassembly: once
> I dinged the gear doors putting it into the trailer, so we bought a
> spare set of gear doors so it can be easily field repaired if
> it happens again.
>
> For clubs that own a Duo, its first out of the hangar in the
> AM for primary training, some XC during the mid-day, and
> then back to primary training late afternoon until dusk.
>
> This is not at all crazy or out-of-reach for a small group.
> Think seriously about it !

And you can make a similar argument for the DG-1000. Plus you get
optional short tips for acro training, more effective spoilers, and full
rear seat gear operation (unless you're comparing to Duo X).

Jeremy

[[email protected]]

Same spoiler effectiveness (unless the Duo spoilers/wheelbrake
are improperly adjusted, which is common). If you're not doing
Acro, and you don't mind asking passenger to operate gear, no
difference (I always fly from back seat). Anyway, I know some
clubs are equally happy with DG-1000 as we are with our Duo !
I think DG rear seat is a tad more comfortable as well. I'll try
fly the DG one of these days...
Best Regards, Dave

Jeremy Zawodny wrote:
> wrote:
> > You haven't specified any financial constraints, so...
> > Get a Duo Discus, with a good trailer and solo assembly rig.
> >
> > We have a small syndicate/club. I assemble the Duo myself
> > and I'm ready to fly in the time many clubs take to unpack a hangar.
> > Easy to fly, suitable for primary instruction through advanced XC.
> >
> > Of course, you're going to spend a bit more money than
> > some of the other options discussed, but it will retain its
> > value with very low maintenance costs, and you will never
> > be dissatisfied with performance or suitability for transition
> > training. Go fly it in a contest with a more experienced
> > pilot if you want to learn something (our Duo is featured
> > in the movie "A Fine Week of Soaring" with Karl Striedieck).
> >
> > Get it equipped with two parachutes, and an ILEC SN10
> > varior/flight computer with Garmin GPS-35.
> >
> > Only issues with club member assembly/disassembly: once
> > I dinged the gear doors putting it into the trailer, so we bought a
> > spare set of gear doors so it can be easily field repaired if
> > it happens again.
> >
> > For clubs that own a Duo, its first out of the hangar in the
> > AM for primary training, some XC during the mid-day, and
> > then back to primary training late afternoon until dusk.
> >
> > This is not at all crazy or out-of-reach for a small group.
> > Think seriously about it !
>
> And you can make a similar argument for the DG-1000. Plus you get
> optional short tips for acro training, more effective spoilers, and full
> rear seat gear operation (unless you're comparing to Duo X).
>
> Jeremy

[Jeremy Zawodny]

wrote:
> Same spoiler effectiveness (unless the Duo spoilers/wheelbrake
> are improperly adjusted, which is common). If you're not doing
> Acro, and you don't mind asking passenger to operate gear, no
> difference (I always fly from back seat). Anyway, I know some
> clubs are equally happy with DG-1000 as we are with our Duo !
> I think DG rear seat is a tad more comfortable as well. I'll try
> fly the DG one of these days...

Heh. I happen to think the back seat is the worst feature of the
DG-1000, at least in terms of comfort. :-)

But, yeah, it's worth flying both. I haven't flown a Duo X yet, but I'd
like to someday.

Jeremy

[Paul Remde]

Hi,

Interesting. I was very fortunate to spent quite a few hours in the back
seat of a DG-1000 this summer and found it very comfortable - and I'm 6' 3"
tall with very long legs. I think it is a lovely glider in every way! Very
easy to fly and impressive performance. My longs legs get a bit cramped in
the front seat on long flights though.

Paul Remde

"Jeremy Zawodny" > wrote in message
...
> wrote:
>> Same spoiler effectiveness (unless the Duo spoilers/wheelbrake
>> are improperly adjusted, which is common). If you're not doing
>> Acro, and you don't mind asking passenger to operate gear, no
>> difference (I always fly from back seat). Anyway, I know some
>> clubs are equally happy with DG-1000 as we are with our Duo !
>> I think DG rear seat is a tad more comfortable as well. I'll try
>> fly the DG one of these days...
>
> Heh. I happen to think the back seat is the worst feature of the DG-1000,
> at least in terms of comfort. :-)
>
> But, yeah, it's worth flying both. I haven't flown a Duo X yet, but I'd
> like to someday.
>
> Jeremy

[Robert John]

You'll have seen a theme developing.... K21....K21...K21
They're still hard to beat for safety, simplicity,
ruggedness and flexibilty. If only you could spin
them!

See below for answers (London Gliding Club)

At 21:12 18 September 2006, Contestid67 wrote:
>My home club is in the beginning stages of research
>on the purchase of
>a new/used two place glider. Rather than focus on
>what you would like
>to own, we want to focus on what you currently do own.
>
>We would like to ask you a few questions;
>
>- What two place gliders are owned by your club?

5xK21
1xK13 (largely for spinning)
1xDuo Discus (advanced XC training)
1xMotorfalke (field landing & nav training)

>- What were the considerations when your purchased
>those gliders?

Been operating them for over 20 years but we keep getting
a new one as we pension one off. General all-round
ability, ease of use, robustness etc.

>- Which glider would you purchase again?

K21 (for the purpose)

>- Do you prefer glass or aluminum for a club ship?
> Why? Pros/cons?

Glass. No metal gliders suitable/available.

>- Do you store the glider inside or outside? If inside
>is this in a
>hangar or trailer?

K21s and K13 live in hangar. Duo in trailer (less
hangar rash)

>- If in a trailer have there been any issues with assembly/disasse
>>mbly>by club members?

Occasional minor issues if people not familiar.


>- Does the club supply parachutes?

Yes

>- What instruments do you consider necessary beyond
>altimeter, ASI,
>compass, mech vario?

All club gliders have elec/adio varios and radios.
They also now have EW Microrecorder loggers (dead
easy - no need for numpties to touch anything!). Our
need of radios and loggers has to do with our unusual
proximity to Luton Airport. We're inside the TMA and
our boundaries change depending on their landing direction
so we need a high degree of control and awareness.

The Duo is great for XC but may unsuitable for general
club training. We don't usually winch it partly because
we have a limited site and people used to dropping
a K21 striaght ahead on cable-break might be 'embarrassed'
by the Duo flying into the next field. The Duo X is
much better in respect of brakes.
Haven't flown the DG1000 but it does do a lot of the
things a K21 and a Duo can do in one package.
>
>Thanks in advance for your responses.
>
>- John

Welcome
Rob
>
>

[Charles Yeates]

True -- but you can get the same qualities for a lower price by
purchasing a PW-6 -- and it spins as required. [:>))

> You'll have seen a theme developing.... K21....K21...K21
> They're still hard to beat for safety, simplicity,
> ruggedness and flexibilty. If only you could spin
> them!
>

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:29:49 GMT, Charles Yeates
> wrote:


>True -- but you can get the same qualities for a lower price by
>purchasing a PW-6 -- and it spins as required. [:>))

Having tried to squeeze my 6'7" into a PW-6 without success I can
testify that the PW-6 does not offer the same qualities as an
ASK-21...




Bye
Andreas

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Paul Remde wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Interesting. I was very fortunate to spent quite a few hours in the back
> seat of a DG-1000 this summer and found it very comfortable - and I'm 6' 3"
> tall with very long legs. I think it is a lovely glider in every way! Very
> easy to fly and impressive performance. My longs legs get a bit cramped in
> the front seat on long flights though.

Don't get me wrong. I love our DG-1000. Our club has a 2nd one on
order. But I just wish the back seat was more comfortable.

I've done a bit of experimenting with towels and cushions, so it's a lot
better now. But there's still tweaking to be done.

Jeremy

[[email protected]]

Andreas Maurer wrote:
> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:29:49 GMT, Charles Yeates

>
> Having tried to squeeze my 6'7" into a PW-6 without success I can
> testify that the PW-6 does not offer the same qualities as an
> ASK-21...
>

> Bye
> Andreas


Andreas,
I'm 72" , five inches more than you, and still comfy in
PW-5.
You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.
Bye, bye
Richard

[Jack[_7_]]

wrote:
> Andreas Maurer wrote:
>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:29:49 GMT, Charles Yeates
>
>> Having tried to squeeze my 6'7" into a PW-6 without success I can
>> testify that the PW-6 does not offer the same qualities as an
>> ASK-21...

> Andreas,
> I'm 72" , five inches more than you, and still comfy in
> PW-5. You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.


Read again, Richard.

6'7" = 79" v your 72".


Jack

[[email protected]]

Jack wrote:
> wrote:
> > Andreas Maurer wrote:
> >> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:29:49 GMT, Charles Yeates
> >
> >> Having tried to squeeze my 6'7" into a PW-6 without success I can
> >> testify that the PW-6 does not offer the same qualities as an
> >> ASK-21...
>
> > Andreas,
> > I'm 72" , five inches more than you, and still comfy in
> > PW-5. You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.
>
>
> Read again, Richard.
>
> 6'7" = 79" v your 72".
>
>
> Jack

Jack,
is it really 67"=79" ? or may be that 6' 7"=79"
Love your sharp sens of humor.
rk

[Graeme Cant]

wrote:
> Jack wrote:
>> wrote:
>>> Andreas Maurer wrote:
>>>> On Fri, 22 Sep 2006 15:29:49 GMT, Charles Yeates
>>>> Having tried to squeeze my 6'7" into a PW-6 without success I can
>>>> testify that the PW-6 does not offer the same qualities as an
>>>> ASK-21...
>>> Andreas,
>>> I'm 72" , five inches more than you, and still comfy in
>>> PW-5. You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.

> is it really 67"=79" ? or may be that 6' 7"=79"
> Love your sharp sens of humor.

Change your glasses. Andreas said he was 6'7" - six feet seven inches
in plain English. That's just about a full basketball taller than you.

Relaxing isn't going to help him.

GC

> rk
>

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

Hi Richard,

On 25 Sep 2006 21:00:23 -0700, wrote:


>Andreas,
> I'm 72" , five inches more than you, and still comfy in
>PW-5.

I also fit in the PW-5... unfortunately it's a little bit... err...
problematic to give dual instructions in the single seat PW-5, isn't
it? ;)

> You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.
Great advice! :)
Whenever I enter a really tight glider cockpit, I tell myself the
same... unfortunately it doesn't always work. ;)




Bye
Andreas

[Surfer!]

In message >, Andreas Maurer
> writes
<snip>
>
>> You should try again. This time relax, don't squeeze.
>Great advice! :)
>Whenever I enter a really tight glider cockpit, I tell myself the
>same... unfortunately it doesn't always work. ;)

A pair of shoe-horns and a pot of goose grease might help. :)

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net

[Andreas Maurer]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:40:14 +0100, Surfer! > wrote:


>A pair of shoe-horns and a pot of goose grease might help. :)

Been there, done that.
Next step is a chainsaw... ;)

On the other hand:
A tight fit makes you humble.
Whenever I step out of the lovely AS22-2 I get 20 minutes to think
about the luxury of flying an open class ship... it takes that long
until I'm able to walk without pain again.

Life is hard sometimes. ;)



Bye
Andreas

[Surfer!]

In message >, Andreas Maurer
> writes
>On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 13:40:14 +0100, Surfer! > wrote:
>
>
>>A pair of shoe-horns and a pot of goose grease might help. :)
>
>Been there, done that.

I just managed to fit into a club single-seater without the shoe-horns &
grease.

>Next step is a chainsaw... ;)

Not that could make me seriously unpopular!

>
>On the other hand:
>A tight fit makes you humble.

It stops you sliding around as well... And it makes me lament the
figure I had 12 years ago!

>Whenever I step out of the lovely AS22-2 I get 20 minutes to think
>about the luxury of flying an open class ship... it takes that long
>until I'm able to walk without pain again.

That sounds seriously bad! In fact it sounds like it could produce
pressure sores if you fly for several hours.

>
>Life is hard sometimes. ;)

--
Surfer!
Email to: ramwater at uk2 dot net