Insurance

[Mark A. Deal]

I passed my checkride two months ago and now rent aircraft from my flight
school.

Can anybody give me the FL20 overview of the insurance I should be carrying
and why I'll need it?

Father of three, husband of one, self employed. :~)

Thoughts?

--
Mark Deal

[Bob Gardner]

Because the FBO's insurance protects him, not you? If you cause damage to
his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and then come after you.

Bob Gardner

"Mark A. Deal" > wrote in message
...
>I passed my checkride two months ago and now rent aircraft from my flight
>school.
>
> Can anybody give me the FL20 overview of the insurance I should be
> carrying and why I'll need it?
>
> Father of three, husband of one, self employed. :~)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Mark Deal
>

[Vaughn Simon]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> If you cause damage to his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and
> then come after you.

Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes, even though my FBO has a
stable of new G1000 172s. I continually wonder why everybody else flies them,
because the last time I checked (just a few weeks ago) AOPA would not even quote
you on enough renter's insurance to cover one.

Vaughn

[Jose[_1_]]

> Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes

A cheap elderly airplane can do damage to costly things and people too.
You are not covered for that without renters insurance.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Robert M. Gary]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> "Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
> . ..
> > If you cause damage to his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and
> > then come after you.
>
> Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes, even though my FBO has a
> stable of new G1000 172s. I continually wonder why everybody else flies them,
> because the last time I checked (just a few weeks ago) AOPA would not even quote
> you on enough renter's insurance to cover one.

What part of the AOPA renter's insurance exempts G1000 aircraft?

-Robert

[Robert M. Gary]

Mark A. Deal wrote:
> I passed my checkride two months ago and now rent aircraft from my flight
> school.
>
> Can anybody give me the FL20 overview of the insurance I should be carrying
> and why I'll need it?
>
> Father of three, husband of one, self employed. :~)

Ask at the FBO, they have a vested interest in ensuring you are
properly insured. ;) Some FBOs (usually clubs) have insurance that
names the renters. This insurance provides you with liability and often
includes damage wavers. Right now it seems about 25/75 with 75% of FBOs
not having such coverage. If not, you can purchase such insurance
"renter's" insurance through AOPA.
However, keep well clear of some discount FBOs that do not have any
insurance and rely on renters buying renters insurance. That leaves a
very large hole in coverage and often results in the FBO trying to come
after you but your policy not covering it (i.e. if you were not at
fault). Renter's insurance *only* covers situations where you are at
fault. This is also why you cannot "borrow" your friends plane because
if a wheel falls off his policy will not cover the accident because you
were not named, and yours will not cover because you were not at fault.
Owner's policies are very, very, very strict about being named on the
policy or covered as "open pilot". Without that, they will not pay for
anything under any situation. This differs from car insurance.

However, be careful of the majority of opinons out there that you
should buy a butt load of liability coverage. In truth, life has risks
and there is no way, no how you can ever assign all your risk to an
insurance company. You must made a cost/benefit decision yourself on
how much risk you want to take and how much you want to assign to the
insurance company. Most of us would agree that $2000/yr for $10,000
coverage is not worth it for example.

Finally, remember that in aviation insurance, if your medical is 1 day
out of currency, if you don't have a current BFR ( by one day), etc
there is no coverage. There is no "grace" in aviation insurance.

-Robert

[Ron Natalie]

>> Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes, even though my FBO has a
>> stable of new G1000 172s. I continually wonder why everybody else flies them,
>> because the last time I checked (just a few weeks ago) AOPA would not even quote
>> you on enough renter's insurance to cover one.
>
> What part of the AOPA renter's insurance exempts G1000 aircraft?
>
The fact that it tops out at $150,000 or something along those lines.
The G1000 equipped aircraft have hull values in excess of that.

[Jose[_1_]]

> The fact that it tops out at $150,000 or something along those lines.
> The G1000 equipped aircraft have hull values in excess of that.

Well, it would pay =up=to= the policy limit. Most of the time, damage
to the airplane is a lot less. A gear up for example may be $10-20K.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes
>
> A cheap elderly airplane can do damage to costly things and people too. You
> are not covered for that without renters insurance.

Oh I buy the insurance, but I buy just enough hull insurance to pay for the
elderly hull. It leaves me more money for actual flying.

Vaughn

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> The fact that it tops out at $150,000 or something along those lines.
>> The G1000 equipped aircraft have hull values in excess of that.
>
> Well, it would pay =up=to= the policy limit. Most of the time, damage to the
> airplane is a lot less. A gear up for example may be $10-20K.

"You pays your money and you takes your chances." But having insurance
that is only a fraction of the hull value of the plane I am renting is not a bet
I am willing to make at this stage of my life.

Depending on your state's laws, some people are effectively "judgment
proof" because no insurance company would waste tens of thousands just to win an
uncollectible "empty judgment" against someone with no attachable assets. In
that case, minimum (or no) renter's insurance may be just fine for you.

Vaughn

[RNR]

On Tue, 26 Sep 2006 00:04:38 GMT, "Vaughn Simon"
> wrote:

>
>"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>>> Which is why I only rent cheap, elderly airplanes
>>
>> A cheap elderly airplane can do damage to costly things and people too. You
>> are not covered for that without renters insurance.
>
> Oh I buy the insurance, but I buy just enough hull insurance to pay for the
>elderly hull. It leaves me more money for actual flying.
>
>Vaughn
>
>
>
I'm with you on this. I fly older 172s to limit my exposure.
Liability insurance is cheap and easy to get, and I have it. On the
other hand, hull insurance for renters is expensive and not generally
available in large numbers. So, I'm covered for the damage that I may
do to costly things or people and I have enough hull coverage to cover
most of the damage to a "cheap" plane.
Rich Russell

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Gardner" > wrote in message
. ..
> Because the FBO's insurance protects him, not you? If you cause damage to
> his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and then come after you.

Does that actually happen, though, other than in cases of gross negligence
by the pilot? I know about subrogation, but I've never heard of it being
invoked. Has anyone here ever had to pay for damage to a rental plane? (Many
FBOs include the rental pilot as an insured party, but of course that's a
different matter--the question here is what happens if that's not the case.)

--Gary

[[email protected]]

> Does that actually happen, though, other than in cases of gross negligence
> by the pilot? I know about subrogation, but I've never heard of it being
> invoked.

Yes, it does happen, I know personally of an individual (student pilot)
who asked the FBO up front "Am I covered under your policy?, Do I need
renters insurance?". The answer was yes you are covered, and no you
dont need insurance.

Fast forward a couple of months, and the pilot is flying his first solo
x/c into an unfamiliar airport, and he has a rough landing resulting in
a prop strike. The airplane is recovered, repaired and the returned to
service. The pilot goes on to complete his PVT certificate. A couple
months go by. The pilot then receives a threatening demand letter from
the FBO's insurer asking him to repay the $10000+ repair bill.

My opinions:

- Dont EVER rely on someone else to provide insurance coverage for you.
Even if you have thoroughly have read and understood their insurance
contract, how do you know that they paid the bill that month and that
the policy is even in force?

- Get SOME renters insurance. ANY amount is better than none at all.
What you are really buying is legal representation. Even if you get
named in some trivial lawsuit it can be very costly to clear your name.


Richard

[Gary Drescher]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> Fast forward a couple of months, and the pilot is flying his first solo
> x/c into an unfamiliar airport, and he has a rough landing resulting in
> a prop strike. The airplane is recovered, repaired and the returned to
> service. The pilot goes on to complete his PVT certificate. A couple
> months go by. The pilot then receives a threatening demand letter from
> the FBO's insurer asking him to repay the $10000+ repair bill.

Ok, thanks, that's good to know. (Did he end up having to pay the bill?)

> - Dont EVER rely on someone else to provide insurance coverage for you.
> Even if you have thoroughly have read and understood their insurance
> contract, how do you know that they paid the bill that month and that
> the policy is even in force?

If the FBO advertises in writing that rental pilots are covered by its
insurance, and that turns out not to be the case (due to a lapse in the
FBO's premium payments, or for any other reason), then I'd imagine that the
pilot could sue to recover from the FBO any damages that the insurance
company had sued to recover from the pilot.

--Gary

[BTIZ]

I carry $25K Hull coverage for the light twin I rent, it also covers for all
other aircraft.
I also carry the "standard" liability coverage.

The Flight School from which I rent, does not require enough to cover the
entire aircraft. Only enough to cover the deductible. As most insurance
policies are underwritten to the same carrier.. they won't sub to far to
recover.

B

"Mark A. Deal" > wrote in message
...
>I passed my checkride two months ago and now rent aircraft from my flight
>school.
>
> Can anybody give me the FL20 overview of the insurance I should be
> carrying and why I'll need it?
>
> Father of three, husband of one, self employed. :~)
>
> Thoughts?
>
> --
> Mark Deal
>

[Sylvain]

BTIZ wrote:

> I carry $25K Hull coverage for the light twin I rent, it also covers for
> all other aircraft.

where did you find a renter insurance covering twins? avemco
no longer covers that...

--Sylvain

[BTIZ]

mine is with AVEMCO and they just renewed my policy last August.
what you do have to be careful of.. is they do not cover "experimental"..
your buddies RV-8
BT

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> BTIZ wrote:
>
>> I carry $25K Hull coverage for the light twin I rent, it also covers for
>> all other aircraft.
>
> where did you find a renter insurance covering twins? avemco
> no longer covers that...
>
> --Sylvain

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-09-25, Bob Gardner > wrote:
> Because the FBO's insurance protects him, not you? If you cause damage to
> his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and then come after you.

I can't be the only one to think insurance is a scam. The insurance
companies get it both ways - the FBO gets "insured", and then each
renter has to insure against the FBO's insurance company litigating!
Really, the FBO's insurance isn't aircraft insurance, it's legal cover
because they aren't really covering the aircraft as such - they are
covering the legal action to sue the renter.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-09-25, Robert M. Gary > wrote:
> fault). Renter's insurance *only* covers situations where you are at
> fault. This is also why you cannot "borrow" your friends plane because
> if a wheel falls off his policy will not cover the accident because you
> were not named,

That depends on your friend's insurance: most policies have an "open
pilot" policy which states if you have the required level of experience,
you can fly the aircraft and be covered by the insurance.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Peter Duniho]

"Dylan Smith" > wrote in message
...
> On 2006-09-25, Bob Gardner > wrote:
>> Because the FBO's insurance protects him, not you? If you cause damage to
>> his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and then come after you.
>
> I can't be the only one to think insurance is a scam. The insurance
> companies get it both ways - the FBO gets "insured", and then each
> renter has to insure against the FBO's insurance company litigating!

I guess that depends on what the coverage costs. Insurance companies insure
against a specific risk. In the case of the FBO, assuming the FBO has not
agreed to hold the renter harmless, then if they had no insurance they would
still have the right to go after the renter.

But there is considerable expense and risk associated with that. So most
FBOs choose instead to consolidate that risk into an insurance policy.

Assuming the insurance company is charging a premium appropriate to coverage
of that risk, rather than appropriate to the actual risk of an airplane
being flown hundreds of hours a year by the average rental pilot, I see
nothing wrong with the strategy.

And for what it's worth, whether you think it's a scam or not, the scenario
is not unique to aviation insurance.

> Really, the FBO's insurance isn't aircraft insurance, it's legal cover
> because they aren't really covering the aircraft as such - they are
> covering the legal action to sue the renter.

If you understand that, then why do you say the coverage is a scam? Two
different policies, taken out by two different individuals, to cover two
entirely different activities.

Pete

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> Fast forward a couple of months, and the pilot is flying his first solo
> x/c into an unfamiliar airport, and he has a rough landing resulting in
> a prop strike. The airplane is recovered, repaired and the returned to
> service. The pilot goes on to complete his PVT certificate. A couple
> months go by. The pilot then receives a threatening demand letter from
> the FBO's insurer asking him to repay the $10000+ repair bill.

A threatening letter is very different from a successful lawsuit.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Judah]

Dylan Smith > wrote in
:

> On 2006-09-25, Bob Gardner > wrote:
>> Because the FBO's insurance protects him, not you? If you cause damage to
>> his airplane, his insurance will cover his costs and then come after you.
>
> I can't be the only one to think insurance is a scam. The insurance
> companies get it both ways - the FBO gets "insured", and then each
> renter has to insure against the FBO's insurance company litigating!
> Really, the FBO's insurance isn't aircraft insurance, it's legal cover
> because they aren't really covering the aircraft as such - they are
> covering the legal action to sue the renter.
>

The whole legal system in the US is a scam that does very little to protect
anyone but the lawyers...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Judah" > wrote in message
. ..
> The whole legal system in the US is a scam that does very little to
protect
> anyone but the lawyers...

http://grumman581.googlepages.com/lawyer-problem-solution

[Judah]

"Grumman-581" > wrote in news:S%USg.677
:

> http://grumman581.googlepages.com/lawyer-problem-solution

I like your plan. Let's execute it.