Stucdent Pilot PIC Time

[William Snow]

Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
airplane.

It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
is the group consensus??

[ktbr]

William Snow wrote:
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??
>
>
A student pilot, currently endorsed for solo of a given type
of aircraft in his log book and student pilot certificate may
log PIC time while flying solo in that type aircraft.

[Gary Drescher]

"William Snow" > wrote in message
. ..
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??

The relevant regulation is 61.51e4. Being the sole manipulator does *not*
entitle a student pilot to log PIC time; only a sport, recreational,
private, or commercial pilot can log PIC time as sole manipulator(see
61.51e1).

However, 61.51e4 clearly states that a student pilot can log PIC time while
flying solo. What reason did anyone at your flight school give for doubting
that?

http://ecfr.gpoaccess.gov/cgi/t/text/text-idx?&c=ecfr&tpl=/ecfrbrowse/Title14/14tab_02.tpl

--Gary

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

William Snow wrote:
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??


Huh? Why wouldn't he? If there's no one else in the cockpit, who else possibly
could be in command?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Gary Drescher]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> William Snow wrote:
>> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
>> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
>> airplane.
>>
>> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator.
>> What
>> is the group consensus??
>
> Huh? Why wouldn't he? If there's no one else in the cockpit, who else
> possibly could be in command?

You're addressing a separate question. Being PIC isn't the same as being
entitled to log PIC time; those two concepts are different, with different
criteria set forth by different regulations.

--Gary

[Robert M. Gary]

You have too many old people at your FBO. I think there used to be some
differences in prehistoric times. Today, student pilots are specificly
allowed to log PIC while solo under 61.51(e) (assuming properly
endorsed, medical, etc).
Also, remember that *being PIC* (often called "serving as PIC") is a
very, very different subject than logging PIC. You log PIC because
61.51(e) says so, end of story, being PIC doesn't come into play.


-Robert

William Snow wrote:
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??

[Bob Gardner]

I think that you would be doing a public service if you bought a copy of the
regulations for your flight school so that similar questions can be answered
in the future.

Bob Gardner

"William Snow" > wrote in message
. ..
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??
>
>

[birdog]

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>>61.51e4 clearly states that a student pilot can log PIC time while
>>flying solo. What reason did anyone at your flight school give for
>>doubting
>>that?
>
> I presume the reason they doubted it was that once a upon a
> time a student could not log PIC. The student had to log
> "solo" time instead. "Once upon a time" was a long while
> ago, but there are still some around who remember those days
> (although I'm surprised they wouldn't know it has changed).

I started flying in 1944. I do not recall a time when a student pilot flying
solo was not allowed to log as PIC.????

[Ron Natalie]

Gary Drescher wrote:

> However, 61.51e4 clearly states that a student pilot can log PIC time while
> flying solo. What reason did anyone at your flight school give for doubting
> that?

This is correct and it was a change that came with the 1995 Part 61
rewrite. Prior to then, there was no provision for student pilots
to log pilot-in-command time. This may be what confuses your
instructors.

It further confuses them as to this question: I logged solo time
back before Part 61 changed and allowed me to count it as pic time
as well. Now when I apply for my instrument rating do I count the
20 or so ours of pre-private solo time as PIC? Who knows.
Didn't really make a difference with close to 600 hours otherwise
logged.

[Ron Natalie]

birdog wrote:

>
> I started flying in 1944. I do not recall a time when a student pilot flying
> solo was not allowed to log as PIC.????
>
>
They certainly could not log it between 1981 when I started flying in
August of 1997 when the Part 61 rewrite went into effect.

[Ron Natalie]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> William Snow wrote:
>> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
>> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
>> airplane.
>>
>> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
>> is the group consensus??
>
>
> Huh? Why wouldn't he? If there's no one else in the cockpit, who else possibly
> could be in command?
>
>
>
Being in pilot in command is not necessary NOR sufficient in order to
log it.

[GeorgeC]

I had some of the same questions, so I ask the AOPA Pilot Information Center.
Here was they reply.


George,

Thank you for your email.

As a student pilot you can only log PIC time when you are the sole occupant of
the aircraft. You will see that is found in FAR 61.51. After your solo
endorsement you are not rated for the aircraft. As a private pilot once you are
"rated" in the aircraft you can log PIC time for all that time that you are the
sole manipulator of the controls. So add up your solo time as a student pilot
plus your USAF solo time as well as your sole manipulator of the controls after
your obtaining your private and you will have your total PIC time. I hope this
helps you out.

If you have any further questions feel free to contact us at 1-800-872-2672.

Best Regards,

Nathan Rohrbaugh
Aviation Technical Specialist
Pilot Information Center
Fax 301-695-2372
www.aopa.org


Do your part to help GA. Find a new pilot today.
Sign up for PROJECT PILOT!
www.AOPAProjectPilot.org



On Wed, 27 Sep 2006 07:31:04 -0400, "William Snow" > wrote:

>Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
>student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
>airplane.
>
>It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
>is the group consensus??
>

GeorgeC

[Robert M. Gary]

GeorgeC wrote:
> As a student pilot you can only log PIC time when you are the sole occupant of
> the aircraft. You will see that is found in FAR 61.51. After your solo
> endorsement you are not rated for the aircraft. As a private pilot once you are
> "rated" in the aircraft you can log PIC time for all that time that you are the
> sole manipulator of the controls. So add up your solo time as a student pilot
> plus your USAF solo time as well as your sole manipulator of the controls after
> your obtaining your private and you will have your total PIC time. I hope this
> helps you out.

For your USAF(or airline, etc) time you can also add any time you were
captain in a multicrew aircraft, regardless of who was on the controls.

-Robert

[BTIZ]

that is the ONLY time he can log PIC, pertinent regulation references have
been posted.

BT

"William Snow" > wrote in message
. ..
> Around our flight school there seems to be dissention as to whether a
> student pilot, post solo, can log pic time when there is no CFI in the
> airplane.
>
> It looks like the FAR says they can as they are the sole manipulator. What
> is the group consensus??
>
>

[tjd]

What about the private checkride? I found some old threads on this
group but I'd call them inconclusive. 61.47 is clear that the examiner
is not (normally) the PIC and is "not subject to the requirements or
limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this
chapter." So how does that interact with 61.51e4? If the student
can't log it, does no-one log the PIC time?

Someone (probably my instructor) told me to log ny checkride as PIC, so
I did - now I'm wondering if I should change it.

todd.

[GeorgeC]

You were PIC. When I took my chick ride, my examiner told me before we got in
the airplane that I was PIC. I took the hint. When I fly with another pilot, we
always determine in advance who is PIC. It cut down on the confusion. Except
when I fly with my CFII, it's understood that I'm always PIC.

One way to look at it is. If there are two people in the airplane an one (the
examiner) is NOT the PIC, then the other one (you) is.

The reason examiners are not PIC's is so that neither the FAA nor the examiner
can be held liable.

On 28 Sep 2006 01:18:02 -0700, "tjd" > wrote:

>What about the private checkride? I found some old threads on this
>group but I'd call them inconclusive. 61.47 is clear that the examiner
>is not (normally) the PIC and is "not subject to the requirements or
>limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this
>chapter." So how does that interact with 61.51e4? If the student
>can't log it, does no-one log the PIC time?
>
>Someone (probably my instructor) told me to log ny checkride as PIC, so
>I did - now I'm wondering if I should change it.
>
>todd.

GeorgeC

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

tjd wrote:
>
> Someone (probably my instructor) told me to log ny checkride as PIC,

As did mine, so I did, and it's staying that way. <G>

[Ron Natalie]

tjd wrote:
> What about the private checkride?

Part 91 gives examiners special dispensation to not count
as passengers. Private candidates can hence carry them
under their pilot in command authority. If I were to
get an commercial checkride tomorrow, I could do it without
the three bounces in 90 days rule as well (though unlikely).

[Gary Drescher]

"tjd" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> What about the private checkride? I found some old threads on this
> group but I'd call them inconclusive. 61.47 is clear that the examiner
> is not (normally) the PIC and is "not subject to the requirements or
> limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this
> chapter." So how does that interact with 61.51e4? If the student
> can't log it, does no-one log the PIC time?
>
> Someone (probably my instructor) told me to log ny checkride as PIC, so
> I did - now I'm wondering if I should change it.

You're right that the regs are vague on that point. But it seems to be
accepted practice to log the time as PIC time. Apparently 61.47c is
construed to include an exemption from the sole-occupant provision of
61.51e4 (though that exemption is by no means clear from the wording
itself).

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

"GeorgeC" > wrote in message
...
> On 28 Sep 2006 01:18:02 -0700, "tjd" > wrote:
>
>>What about the private checkride? I found some old threads on this
>>group but I'd call them inconclusive. 61.47 is clear that the examiner
>>is not (normally) the PIC and is "not subject to the requirements or
>>limitations for the carriage of passengers that are specified in this
>>chapter." So how does that interact with 61.51e4? If the student
>>can't log it, does no-one log the PIC time?
>>
>>Someone (probably my instructor) told me to log ny checkride as PIC, so
>>I did - now I'm wondering if I should change it.
>
> You were PIC.

Right, but that's not what he asked; rather, he asked whether the time is
loggable as PIC time. *Being* PIC is not one of the conditions that entitles
you to log PIC time (61.51e).

It's insanely confusing for the FAA to use the term "PIC time", since the
rules for logging "PIC time" have nothing to do with whether or not you're
PIC. It should instead be called "primary flight time" or something.

--Gary

[William Snow]

As evidenced by this thread, there is controversy as to what is loggable and
what is not.

To clarify the question is post solo, sole manipulator, & sole occupant
adequate to allow logging as pic?

There are many flight schools (Flight Safety for one) that do not allow any
pic time to be logged until the day of the checkride.

So, that begs another question, what is the thinking that justifies no
logging of pic time when dual is being logged, post solo, pre checkride??

WLS

[Gary Drescher]

"William Snow" > wrote in message
. ..
> As evidenced by this thread, there is controversy as to what is loggable
> and what is not.

Not with regard to the original question. A couple of people made hasty
remarks that they did not try to defend when the relevant regulations were
cited in reply.

> To clarify the question is post solo, sole manipulator, & sole occupant
> adequate to allow logging as pic?

Being sole-manipulator is not adequate for a student pilot to log PIC time,
whether before or after solo. Being sole-occupant is adequate for a student
pilot to log PIC time (with a solo endorsement, of course).

> There are many flight schools (Flight Safety for one) that do not allow
> any pic time to be logged until the day of the checkride.

I don't understand. It's your logbook. How could a flight school prevent you
from logging time in it in accordance with the FARs?

> So, that begs another question, what is the thinking that justifies no
> logging of pic time when dual is being logged, post solo, pre checkride??

That's entirely different. When the flight is dual rather than solo, a
student pilot cannot log PIC time (although a private pilot can). The
thinking is that 61.51e4i says that a student pilot can only log PIC time
when the student is alone in the plane.

Perhaps I see where your uncertainty might be coming from. Note that the
three clauses (i, ii, and iii) of 61.51e4 are joined by an "and"; that is,
all three clauses have to be satisfied in order for a student pilot to log
PIC time. Your question about post-solo sole-manipulator time suggests that
you may be reading those clauses as though the "and" applied only to the
second two clauses, with an "or" joining those to the first clause. But
that's not the case.

--Gary

[Newps]

William Snow wrote:
> As evidenced by this thread, there is controversy as to what is loggable and
> what is not.
>
> To clarify the question is post solo, sole manipulator, & sole occupant
> adequate to allow logging as pic?

Yes. 100% no questions asked, yes.


>
> There are many flight schools (Flight Safety for one) that do not allow any
> pic time to be logged until the day of the checkride.

They are wrong. Period.

[tjd]

Gary Drescher wrote:
> Right, but that's not what he asked; rather, he asked whether the time is
> loggable as PIC time. *Being* PIC is not one of the conditions that entitles
> you to log PIC time (61.51e).

Yeah, I should have been more clear about that - I definitely knew that
I *was* the PIC on the checkride, but I wasn't sure about logging it.
Sounds like we've got a few votes for logging it as PIC being accepted
practice even though the FARs are less than explicit.

thanks! happy to hear I don't have to let perfectly good PIC time go
to waste - I don't have very much to go around yet :)

todd.

[Ron Natalie]

William Snow wrote:

> So, that begs another question, what is the thinking that justifies no
> logging of pic time when dual is being logged, post solo, pre checkride??
>
Because nothing in the rules allow it. Post-solo is not any kind of
regulatory event. You can only be pilot in command on a student
certificate if you are the sole occupant of the aircraft (because
the student pilot limitations say you can't be PIC with passengers).

The rules for logging, say that recreational and better pilots
can log sole manipulator time (even when getting instruction) but
student pilots still have to be solo.

[Gary Drescher]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> William Snow wrote:
>
>> So, that begs another question, what is the thinking that justifies no
>> logging of pic time when dual is being logged, post solo, pre checkride??
>>
> Because nothing in the rules allow it.

It's worse than that--the rules explicitly *dis*allow it. That is, 61.51e4i
explicitly says that a student pilot can *only* log PIC time when the
student is the airplane's sole occupant.

--Gary