what exactly constitutes a troll? [Archive]

Gig 601XL Builder

September 29th 06, 03:06 PM

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> sorry for the naive question, but what is all this fuss
> about Mxsmanic? may be am I missing something obvious,
> I must confess that I haven't read all his posts, but I
> am a bit surprised by the rather hostile reactions that
> he received; I mean, ok, he doesn't fly 'for real',
> and sometimes his questions are a tad naives, but hey,
> as far as I am concerned if he is an aviation enthusiast,
> or at least a wanna-be, I don't see why he should be
> shuned. May be he cannot afford to fly, may be is he
> too young, may be is he a dog -- this is internet
> remember :-) -- or whatever, but we seem to be getting
> along just fine with Skylune who advocates grounding
> us all, so what am I missing?
>
> --Sylvain

The problem with him is that he asks a seemingly good question then when he
is answered by someone knowledgeable in the subject he argues that the
answer is wrong based on either his experience with MSFS or just his on
preconceived notions. Add to that his experience with MSFS isn't even
complete because he hasn't even gone through the tutorials that come with
it.

This isn't the first newsgroup where he has plaid this game either. Google
him via Google Groups and you will see the same thing elsewhere.

Neil Gould

September 29th 06, 03:56 PM

Recently, T o d d P a t t i s t > posted:

> Sylvain > wrote:
>
>>>> sorry for the naive question, but what is all this fuss
>>>> about Mxsmanic?
>>> Go back and read all the posts...
>>
>> ok, will do.
>
> I've read most of them and I don't think he's a troll. He
> sees things from a different perspective than most pilots
> here, he's often wrong, he's more certain that he's right
> than he ought to be, but IMHO, he's not a troll.
>
I have "known" Mxsmanic from other newsgroups for a number of years, and
agree with your opinion that he is not a troll. He may employ a rather
obnoxious learning style -- challenging those who actually know the real
answers to his questions with his misconceptions -- but I do think he is
genuine and not simply trying to upset folks a la Skylune.

Neil

Mike[_11_]

September 29th 06, 04:20 PM

Jim Logajan wrote:
> Wikipedia has a rather interesting article on the subject:
>
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll

By their definition:

"""
In Internet terminology, a troll is often someone who comes into an
established community such as an online discussion forum, and posts
inflammatory, rude, repetitive or offensive messages designed
intentionally to annoy or antagonize the existing members or disrupt the
flow of discussion, including the personal attack of calling others
trolls. Often, trolls assume multiple aliases, or sock puppets.
"""

So how exactly does Mxsmaniac fit that description?

--
Mike

Mike[_11_]

September 29th 06, 04:22 PM

> Go back and read all the posts... You'll probably understand at that
> point... If not, then read again, but this time try reading for
> comprehension...

So now your insulting anyone who doesn't take your view? Who says your
right?

--
Mike

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

September 29th 06, 04:26 PM

Denny wrote:
> What leaves me rolling on the floor is how he keeps trolling (see topic
> just below this one) and we keep taking the bait... So who is the
> fisher and who is the sucker in this little melodrama?

Apparently there are many suckers in this newsgroup, as well as in
rec.aviation.students. Most of the regulars are finally catching on although
there is always the die-hard "don't tell me who to talk to" folks who keep
things alive for him.

It has been quite entertaining but isn't it time to get back to arguing about
whether night follows day or day precedes night per our usual routine?

Enquiring minds....

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Andrew Sarangan[_1_]

September 29th 06, 04:41 PM

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Denny wrote:
> > What leaves me rolling on the floor is how he keeps trolling (see topic
> > just below this one) and we keep taking the bait... So who is the
> > fisher and who is the sucker in this little melodrama?
>
>
> Apparently there are many suckers in this newsgroup, as well as in
> rec.aviation.students. Most of the regulars are finally catching on although
> there is always the die-hard "don't tell me who to talk to" folks who keep
> things alive for him.
>
> It has been quite entertaining but isn't it time to get back to arguing about
> whether night follows day or day precedes night per our usual routine?
>
> Enquiring minds....
>

May be it is a troll, but it is aviation-related, and the comments
could be of some use to someone. There are plenty of non-aviation
topics posted by regulars that we tolerate in this group. Just look at
this thread. Apparently some joke about lower Michigan...

Gig 601XL Builder

September 29th 06, 05:30 PM

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
>
>>The problem with him is that he asks a seemingly good question then when
>>he
>>is answered by someone knowledgeable in the subject he argues that the
>>answer is wrong based on either his experience with MSFS or just his on
>>preconceived notions.
>
> This is a fair comment - he is argumentative, but that label
> can apply to many here :-) He does tend to argue based on
> his understanding, which is often wrong and often based on
> his flight sim experience, but the point is that he does it
> because he believes in his position, not because he's trying
> to be a troll and merely stir up argument. I suspect that
> what most object to is his style of questioning, coupled
> with some natural defensiveness of a sim pilot under attack
> in a pilot forum.
>

But Todd, you did it with one issue. He has done it with just about every
single thread he has started. He has also done it on other non-aviation
newsgroups and sounds like, from an earlier post, he did it in the MSFS
newsgroup as well.

He has not once in the many threads admitted that he was wrong on a issue.
That shows me that he just likes to heat and stir the pot and watch the
bubbles which is a troll no matter how Wikipedia defines a troll.

Jose[_1_]

September 29th 06, 05:53 PM

> I finally researched and found the answer -
> partly elsewhere

So what was the answer?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Peter Duniho

September 29th 06, 07:54 PM

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> [...]
> I can recall being labeled a troll. I was trying to figure
> out why my glider's oxy tank got hot when it was filled.
> Every pilot I spoke to said it was because the oxy was being
> "compressed" That just makes no sense. You start with a
> high pressure fill tank and my empty oxy tank, connect the
> two together and let the oxy that was at high pressure in
> the fill tank, expand to fill the increased volume defined
> by the fill tank volume plus the empty tank volume. That
> seems like it should cause cooling due to expansion, not
> heating due to compression.

Well, that hardly seems fair. You post a perfectly interesting question,
without sharing the answer?

I'm not entirely swayed by your reasoning that it can't be due to
compression because the gas is expanding. It seems to me that tack ignores
the fact that the tank being filled *does* have gas inside it that is being
compressed. The gas coming in should get cooler while the gas already in
should get hotter. The net could go either way as far as I can tell.

Your hint implies that energy not used in the transfer (to run a windmill,
for example) must be expended some other way (as heat, for example). But to
me that ignores the fact that the energy IS actually being used in the form
of the velocity of the transfer (the windmill would extract energy and
reduce the velocity).

Of course, the gas moving at a high velocity has to slow down eventually,
once in the other tank. Was your conclusion that it was this reduction in
velocity that resulted in the increase in temperature?

I'm not saying your conclusion is incorrect, but you haven't posted enough
information to explain it (that is, we don't even know what the conclusion
was, never mind the method used to arrive at it). Unfortunately, you also
have already posted too much information for the curious among us to just
let it go. :)

Pete

Peter Dohm

September 29th 06, 08:01 PM

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
>
> >The problem with him is that he asks a seemingly good question then when
he
> >is answered by someone knowledgeable in the subject he argues that the
> >answer is wrong based on either his experience with MSFS or just his on
> >preconceived notions.
>
> This is a fair comment - he is argumentative, but that label
> can apply to many here :-) He does tend to argue based on
> his understanding, which is often wrong and often based on
> his flight sim experience, but the point is that he does it
> because he believes in his position, not because he's trying
> to be a troll and merely stir up argument. I suspect that
> what most object to is his style of questioning, coupled
> with some natural defensiveness of a sim pilot under attack
> in a pilot forum.
>
> I can recall being labeled a troll. I was trying to figure
> out why my glider's oxy tank got hot when it was filled.
> Every pilot I spoke to said it was because the oxy was being
> "compressed" That just makes no sense. You start with a
> high pressure fill tank and my empty oxy tank, connect the
> two together and let the oxy that was at high pressure in
> the fill tank, expand to fill the increased volume defined
> by the fill tank volume plus the empty tank volume. That
> seems like it should cause cooling due to expansion, not
> heating due to compression.
>
> Anyway, since no pilots knew the answer, I figured scuba
> enthusiasts could explain it, so I went to a scuba group
> where they deal with tank filling more than we do. Guess
> what - the majority of them thought it was due to
> compression too. They kept explaining air compressors and
> referring to the gas laws.
>
> I tried to explain calmly why that couldn't be right since
> we were dealing with expansion, not compression. We weren't
> looking at compressors, and the gas laws they quoted didn't
> define the answer (mostly they had the wrong volumes
> defined). They got hotter and hotter and started labeling
> this newcomer as a troll, insisting that they were trained
> in this, had instructors ratings, etc and they knew the
> answer. Pretty soon they were ganging up, saying how no
> one should discuss this any more, since I was so thick
> headed, not a diver (not true) and just trying to troll for
> more dispute. I finally researched and found the answer -
> partly elsewhere, but mostly from an astute comment by a
> physicist who liked to dive (Could you run a windmill
> generator on the flow between the two tanks - what happens
> to the energy you could extract if you don't extract it?) .
>
> Perhaps I became a bit defensive, perhaps I stated my point
> with more vigor than I should have used against some who
> seemed particularly dense, but my point is just that a
> different viewpoint from an outsider does not a troll make.
>
>
>
> --
> Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and
metal.
>
> - Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.'

On the issue of the O2 tank, I must admit that I still don't quite
understand. Intuitively, when filling a smaller tank from a larger one and
with both starting at the same temperature, I would expect the cooling due
to expansion of the gas from the larger tank to offset the heating due to
compression in the smaller tank being filled. I would have first expected
both tanks to end at the starting temperature; but I can also understand how
the source tank might end up cooler and the tank being filled might end up
warmer, in inverse relationship to their volumes, so that the added warmth
of the smaller tank might be more noticeable. Conservation of energy would
explain that much. However, if the difference was great, then I don't
understand the reason--but simply accept the observation pending further
data.

On the original subject of the thread. I have not personally tried any of
the PC sims since just after the 8080 days. However, in the old days, with
the very first MSFS, I seem to recall that the field of view was
approximately 90 degrees (or 45 degrees each side of center) for each screen
and the "camera" could be panned in either 90 degree or 45 degree increments
(I have forgotten which) to obtain a 360 degree view. Thus, with a single
monitor, it was extremely difficult to accurately simulate VFR operation of
a real aircraft. However, it is reputed to be a very credible IFR procedure
simulator; and can I've also been told that it is an acceptable substitute
for the old link trainers when a little turbulence is added and the
stability is reduced. In addition, millions of youths have proven that it
can be flown visually--and is acrobatic when treated as a video game--but
the cues are radically different from an aircraft and could even be a source
of really dangerous bad habits for a pilot (such as only looking straight
ahead).

So, I really don't know why Mxsmanic says he won't take a familiarization
flight. But remember that this is Usenet, and some of the inhabitants are
unusually large or small, or have other physical limitations. Therefore, I
reserve judgment.

Peter

[email protected]

September 29th 06, 09:00 PM

Steven P. McNicoll > wrote:

> Yoopers are from upper Michigan, trolls from lower Michigan.

That is because trolls live "below the bridge".
The bridge connects the UP from the LP. :-)

I grew up in Wisconsin. :-)

Best regards,

Jer/ "Flight instruction and mountain flying are my vocations!"
--
Jer/ (Slash) Eberhard, Mountain Flying Aviation, LTD, Ft Collins, CO
CELL 970 231-6325 EMAIL jer<at>frii.com http://users.frii.com/jer/
C-206 N9513G, CFII Airplane&Glider FAA-DEN Aviation Safety Counselor
CAP-CO Mission&Aircraft CheckPilot BM218 HAM N0FZD 240 Young Eagles!

Matt Whiting

September 29th 06, 10:08 PM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Jon Kraus wrote:
>>
>>>as opposed to an uppie?
>>>
>>>Jon Kraus
>>>'79 Mooney 201
>>>4443H @ UMP
>>>
>>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>A native of lower Michigan.
>>>>
>>
>>I think that is a yooper, not an uppie. :-)
>>
>
>
> Yoopers are from upper Michigan, trolls from lower Michigan.

Correct. That is why I was correcting uppie to yooper.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]

September 29th 06, 10:48 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>
>>>Jon Kraus wrote:
>>>
>>>>as opposed to an uppie?
>>>>
>>>>Jon Kraus
>>>>'79 Mooney 201
>>>>4443H @ UMP
>>>>
>>>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>A native of lower Michigan.
>>>>>
>>>
>>>I think that is a yooper, not an uppie. :-)
>>>
>>
>>
>> Yoopers are from upper Michigan, trolls from lower Michigan.
>
> Correct. That is why I was correcting uppie to yooper.
>

You said a native of lower Michigan was a yooper, not an uppie. That's not
correct.

Matt Whiting

September 29th 06, 11:10 PM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>
>>>"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>>>
>>>
>>>>Jon Kraus wrote:
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>>as opposed to an uppie?
>>>>>
>>>>>Jon Kraus
>>>>>'79 Mooney 201
>>>>>4443H @ UMP
>>>>>
>>>>>Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>>A native of lower Michigan.
>>>>>>
>>>>
>>>>I think that is a yooper, not an uppie. :-)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>Yoopers are from upper Michigan, trolls from lower Michigan.
>>
>>Correct. That is why I was correcting uppie to yooper.
>>
>
>
> You said a native of lower Michigan was a yooper, not an uppie. That's not
> correct.

No, I said no such thing. A previous poster made the lower Michigan
comment. I commented to the poster that made the uppie comment. That
fact that he top-posted isn't my problem.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]

September 29th 06, 11:23 PM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, I said no such thing. A previous poster made the lower Michigan
> comment. I commented to the poster that made the uppie comment. That
> fact that he top-posted isn't my problem.
>

Yes, you did. Your statement, "I think that is a yooper, not an uppie.
:-)", immediately follows the statement, "A native of lower Michigan." You
are responsible for the content and format of what you post, don't blame
anyone else.

Sylvain

September 30th 06, 12:49 AM

Have you considered that he may come across as annoying because
of different cultural background? when I moved to USA it took
me a while to pick up the clues as to what was ok and what was
not in a conversation, and I had the advantage of a) having
travelled / lived in different countries before -- so I should
have known better about different sensitivities, and b) interacting
with people in person rather than over the net (which masks out
all non verbal clues); The other thing is that he might be also
quite young; teenagers can be really annoying even when they
don't mean to be :-) it eventually wears off (with most people) :-)

--Sylvain

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:
> The problem with him is that he asks a seemingly good question then when
> he is answered by someone knowledgeable in the subject he argues that the
> answer is wrong based on either his experience with MSFS or just his on
> preconceived notions. Add to that his experience with MSFS isn't even
> complete because he hasn't even gone through the tutorials that come with
> it.

Sylvain

September 30th 06, 01:02 AM

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
> and not evil minded. One of his more bizarre character traits is that
> he prefers simulations as a surrogate for real life;

I know quite a few people who use simulations as a surrogate for
real life, and not necessarily by choice but for the simple
reason that real life is not physically accessible to them; we
don't know anything about this guy (and about most other
participants to newsgroups for that matter)...

besides I have a natural tendency to root for the underdogs rather
than the mob, but may be is it just me :-)

--Sylvain

Matt Whiting

September 30th 06, 01:16 AM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>No, I said no such thing. A previous poster made the lower Michigan
>>comment. I commented to the poster that made the uppie comment. That
>>fact that he top-posted isn't my problem.
>>
>
>
> Yes, you did. Your statement, "I think that is a yooper, not an uppie.
> :-)", immediately follows the statement, "A native of lower Michigan." You
> are responsible for the content and format of what you post, don't blame
> anyone else.

I'm not responsible for the fact that you can't follow a threaded
discussion. Immediately follows in text, doesn't mean immediately
follows in time, especially when some folks insist on top posting.
Learn to use a threaded newsreader so you can keep the chronology straight.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]

September 30th 06, 02:38 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> I'm not responsible for the fact that you can't follow a threaded
> discussion. Immediately follows in text, doesn't mean immediately follows
> in time, especially when some folks insist on top posting. Learn to use a
> threaded newsreader so you can keep the chronology straight.
>

You made an error. Learn from it. Move on.

Matt Whiting

September 30th 06, 03:04 AM

Steven P. McNicoll wrote:
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>I'm not responsible for the fact that you can't follow a threaded
>>discussion. Immediately follows in text, doesn't mean immediately follows
>>in time, especially when some folks insist on top posting. Learn to use a
>>threaded newsreader so you can keep the chronology straight.
>>
>
>
> You made an error. Learn from it. Move on.
>
>

No, you aren't smart enough to know what a usenet thread is. Learn how
before claiming someone made an error. Even a usenet rookie can tell
that my reply was to Jon Kraus' post of 9/28/05 9:50 PM. Read that post
again and you'll understand (well maybe) the context of my message.

Matt

Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]

September 30th 06, 03:09 AM

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
>
> No, you aren't smart enough to know what a usenet thread is. Learn how
> before claiming someone made an error. Even a usenet rookie can tell that
> my reply was to Jon Kraus' post of 9/28/05 9:50 PM. Read that post again
> and you'll understand (well maybe) the context of my message.
>

You did not write what you think you did. You made an error. Learn from
it. Move on.

Peter Duniho

September 30th 06, 03:12 AM

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
>
> Have you considered that he may come across as annoying because
> of different cultural background?

As far as I can tell, he's an American ex-pat. But even so, we get plenty
of people from a wide variety of cultures and for the most part people deal
with it just fine. I don't think this is a cultural thing.

> [...] The other thing is that he might be also
> quite young; teenagers can be really annoying even when they
> don't mean to be :-)

I've known lots of teens who are just as respectful, or even more so, than
adults. But in any case, he's been around for years. He might have a
teen's maturity, but his actual age is almost certainly beyond that.

Pete

Jose[_1_]

September 30th 06, 06:01 AM

> when I moved to USA it took
> me a while to pick up the clues as to what was ok and what was
> not in a conversation

Are you willing to share examples? Where did you come from?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Sylvain

September 30th 06, 08:42 AM

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:

> Mixi is an American living in Paris.

ok, I understand now: bad influences/environment :-)

--Sylvain

Larry Dighera

September 30th 06, 04:23 PM

On 29 Sep 2006 15:09:02 -0500, T o d d P a t t i s t
> wrote in
>:

>>Was your conclusion that it was this reduction in
>>velocity that resulted in the increase in temperature?
>
>No, it was that the velocity goes from organized flow to
>random thermal energy.

I haven't read the entire thread, but does the analysis that lead to
your conclusion include the heat transfer from the ambient atmosphere
through the conductive copper fill tubing to the O2 between the
reservoir tank and the tank being filled? The temperature
differential between the gas leaving the reservoir tank and the
ambient air must be pretty significant, so I would expect the heat
transfer to figure in your conclusion. Of course the amount of time
the O2 being transferred is exposed to ambient temperatures is also a
factor. How long does it typically take to complete the filling
operation?

You mentioned ignoring the temperature of the residual gas (at one
atmosphere pressure) contained in the bottle you are filling because
it was insignificant, but if the gas flowing into the bottle is
picking up heat as it is transferred, and then being compressed to a
higher pressure as the bottle fills, it seems its temperature would
rise.

Grumman-581[_3_]

September 30th 06, 07:22 PM

"Mike" > wrote in message
. ..
> So now your insulting anyone who doesn't take your view? Who says your
> right?

As the current holder of the position of Arbiter of Truth in the Universe, I
do...

http://grumman581.googlepages.com/the-arbiter-of-truth-in-the-universe

mike regish

September 30th 06, 08:05 PM

The expansion only lasts until the tank is full to ambient pressure-a very
short time. Then it is all compression.

mike

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:

> I tried to explain calmly why that couldn't be right since
> we were dealing with expansion, not compression.

Grumman-581[_3_]

September 30th 06, 09:43 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> The expansion only lasts until the tank is full to ambient pressure-a very
> short time. Then it is all compression.

One mistake that some people make with the equations is not working with
temperature in degrees Kelvin... I always figured that it was a closed
system... If when you let gas out of a container the container gets cooler,
then whatever you are putting the gas into must get warmer... Work was done
with the initial compression of the gas into the tank and as such, the tank
heated up... Leave it alone long enough for the temperature to reach
equilibrium with the outside air and then let it out of the tank and you
will notice a definite drop in the temperature of the tank... For
conservation of energy to be maintained, it has to go someplace... If you
take the surrounding room out of the equation via insulation or whatever and
have one tank decanting into another tank, the only two heat sources that
you have to work with are the tanks... You can't gain energy in this system,
so if heat is being removed from one tank, it has to be added to the other
tank...

Grumman-581[_3_]

September 30th 06, 09:43 PM

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> besides I have a natural tendency to root for the underdogs rather
> than the mob, but may be is it just me :-)

Ahhh, an LA Clippers fan, I see...

Have you considered therapy for that?

Mike[_11_]

October 1st 06, 03:53 AM

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Mike" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> So now your insulting anyone who doesn't take your view? Who says your
>> right?
>
> As the current holder of the position of Arbiter of Truth in the Universe, I
> do...
>
> http://grumman581.googlepages.com/the-arbiter-of-truth-in-the-universe
>
>
Nice joke.

--
Mike

Grumman-581[_3_]

October 1st 06, 09:33 AM

"Mike" > wrote in message
. ..
> Nice joke.

Actually, just being a Texan has significantly helped in my being The
Arbiter Of Truth In The Universe since as a Texan, I'm always right...

Matt Whiting

October 1st 06, 01:34 PM

Grumman-581 wrote:

> "Mike" > wrote in message
> . ..
>
>>Nice joke.
>
>
> Actually, just being a Texan has significantly helped in my being The
> Arbiter Of Truth In The Universe since as a Texan, I'm always right...

.... up until that statement! :-)

Matt

Thomas Borchert

October 2nd 06, 09:06 PM

Neil,

> challenging those who actually know the real
> answers to his questions with his misconceptions
>

As a non-native speaker, I guess I have to relearn the meaning of the
word "to challenge". Then again, nope, looked it up, got it right. What
the guy does is nowhere near "challenging". He's lecturing on subjects
that he asked the most basic questions about only a few posts
previously. So either he is really too dumb to realize what he is doing
or he is a troll. My bet is on the latter.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert

October 2nd 06, 09:06 PM

T,

> but the point is that he does it
> because he believes in his position, not because he's trying
> to be a troll and merely stir up argument.
>

You know, that's exactly the point I don't buy. This "flaw" in his
discussion style has been pointed out to him so often and so explicitly
that the only reason for him to keep it up is purpose. And that makes
him a troll.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Thomas Borchert

October 2nd 06, 09:06 PM

Sylvain,

> Have you considered that he may come across as annoying because
> of different cultural background?
>

I don't think so. He's annoyed people from a wide range of backgrounds
here. Texans as well as Californians <g>, Germans, French...

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Neil Gould

October 2nd 06, 09:26 PM

Recently, Thomas Borchert > posted:

> Neil,
>
>> challenging those who actually know the real
>> answers to his questions with his misconceptions
>>
>
> As a non-native speaker, I guess I have to relearn the meaning of the
> word "to challenge". Then again, nope, looked it up, got it right.
> What the guy does is nowhere near "challenging".
>
I meant "challenging" as in "dueling" or "fighting" with, though not
physically. Strictly perjorative.

> He's lecturing on
> subjects that he asked the most basic questions about only a few posts
> previously. So either he is really too dumb to realize what he is
> doing or he is a troll. My bet is on the latter.
>
The problem that I have with some of his posts is that he makes statements
as matters of fact that are nothing more than complete misinformation. I
think that hurts the newsgroup.

Neil

Sylvain

October 2nd 06, 10:15 PM

Thomas Borchert wrote:

> I don't think so. He's annoyed people from a wide range of backgrounds
> here. Texans as well as Californians <g>, Germans, French...

whaoow. These people tend to be naturally annoyed at each other, to
make them all agree on what is annoying is impressive ;-)

--Sylvain

Stefan

October 2nd 06, 10:30 PM

Sylvain schrieb:

>> Mixi is an American living in Paris.

> ok, I understand now: bad influences/environment :-)

Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms, they don't start wars...)

Stefan

Sylvain

October 2nd 06, 11:23 PM

Stefan wrote:

> Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
> people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
> thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms, they don't start wars...)
>

you haven't spent much time in the French countryside, have you? :-)

(ok, they don't drive huge trucks)

--Sylvain

Stefan

October 2nd 06, 11:28 PM

Sylvain schrieb:

> you haven't spent much time in the French countryside, have you? :-)

Actually an awful lot, and I mostly enjoyed it. (Except some banlieus,
but that's an entirely different story.)

Stefan

Mortimer Schnerd, RN

October 3rd 06, 12:29 AM

Stefan wrote:
> Sylvain schrieb:
>
>>> Mixi is an American living in Paris.
>
>> ok, I understand now: bad influences/environment :-)
>
> Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
> people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
> thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms, they don't start wars...)

Sure they start wars. What they don't do is finish them. Also, I was going to
argue about them not driving insanely until I saw the following line. My bad.

--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN

Mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

Sylvain

October 3rd 06, 01:15 AM

Stefan wrote:
>> you haven't spent much time in the French countryside, have you? :-)
>
> Actually an awful lot, and I mostly enjoyed it. (Except some banlieus,
> but that's an entirely different story.)

and you haven't noticed all these dual barrels shot guns that about
everybody seems to be carrying in some parts? you were making a
statement about the number of guns; shot guns and binge drinking
in some parts seems to the standard night or weekend outing (during
the hunting season which pretty much lasts year round). Quite
scary actually.

--Sylvain

Grumman-581[_3_]

October 3rd 06, 05:56 AM

"Stefan" > wrote in message
...
> Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
> people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
> thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms, they don't start wars...)

Damn, how the **** do you manage to get along with people like *that*?

Stefan

October 3rd 06, 11:24 AM

Mortimer Schnerd, RN schrieb:

> Also, I was going to
> argue about them not driving insanely until I saw the following line.

I have to agree in this point: They *do* drive insanely.

Stefan

Stefan

October 3rd 06, 11:30 AM

Sylvain schrieb:

>>> you haven't spent much time in the French countryside,

> and you haven't noticed all these dual barrels shot guns that about

Yes, hunting... I overlooked the word "countryside". Although I'll never
understand this fascination either, I was talking about guns in
otherwise civilised environment. Heck, I assume you understood very well
against which mindset I was tackling.

Stefan

Thomas Borchert

October 3rd 06, 01:14 PM

Neil,

> The problem that I have with some of his posts is that he makes statements
> as matters of fact that are nothing more than complete misinformation. I
> think that hurts the newsgroup.
>

I couldn't agree more. I shudder to think someone would google an aviation
subject like separation responsibilities of IFR flights in VMC - and his
posts came up.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

Matt Barrow

October 3rd 06, 01:16 PM

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
...
> Stefan wrote:
>> Sylvain schrieb:
>>
>>>> Mixi is an American living in Paris.
>>
>>> ok, I understand now: bad influences/environment :-)
>>
>> Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
>> people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
>> thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms,

Like that means anything. Oh, and their crime rate is getting worse than the
US...

> they don't start wars...)

They do...and they facilitate those who do, too.

Shall we make a list of the super-fascist regimes that flew the French
Mirage?

>
>
>
> Sure they start wars. What they don't do is finish them. Also, I was
> going to argue about them not driving insanely until I saw the following
> line. My bad.
>

They're clueless, too.

Gig 601XL Builder

October 3rd 06, 03:07 PM

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" > wrote in message
...
> Stefan wrote:
>> Sylvain schrieb:
>>
>>>> Mixi is an American living in Paris.
>>
>>> ok, I understand now: bad influences/environment :-)
>>
>> Actually, I know a lot of French, and most of them are very pleasant
>> people. (E.g. they drink and smoke in public, they don't drive insanely
>> thursty trucks, they don't carry firearms, they don't start wars...)
>
>
>
> Sure they start wars. What they don't do is finish them. Also, I was
> going to argue about them not driving insanely until I saw the following
> line. My bad.
>
>
>
But they are pretty macho when it comes to attacking Green Peace ships.
While doing this normally wouldn't bother me there is something just wussy
about it when GP is the toughest guys you ever go up against as a nation.

Larry Dighera

October 3rd 06, 04:21 PM

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:24:20 +0200, Stefan >
wrote in >:

>I have to agree in this point: They *do* drive insanely.

You haven't been to Italy. I once witnessed a Mercedes sedan cross
the centerline of a highway in Rome from behind a bus waiting to turn
left, and proceed directly into oncoming traffic and make its left
turn across four lanes. Parisian drivers are pussycats by comparison
to Italians. But in those European countries you don't have to dodge
bullets like you do on Los Angeles freeways:
http://blogging.la/archives/2006/02/another_freeway_shooting_1.phtml

Stefan

October 3rd 06, 04:58 PM

Larry Dighera schrieb:

>> I have to agree in this point: They *do* drive insanely.

> You haven't been to Italy.

Actually, yes. Living myself pretty much in the middle of Europe, I've
been in many countries over the years, and not in "visit whole Europe in
7 days" style. Frankly, I prefer to drive in Italy than in France. I
think Italian drivers, while also insane, drive more forseeable. But
this may be just personal taste.

That said, there are nice people and assholes everywhere, in France, in
the USA and among pilots. No such thing as "the <whatever>".

Stefan

Larry Dighera

October 3rd 06, 05:12 PM

On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 17:58:10 +0200, Stefan >
wrote in >:

>Frankly, I prefer to drive in Italy than in France. I
>think Italian drivers, while also insane, drive more forseeable. But
>this may be just personal taste.

I will say, that in my experience, Italian drivers, while they may
gesticulate frantically, lack the malice in their hearts that pervades
those of drivers on LA's streets.

So, how do you characterize the temperament of pilots of various
European nationalities?

I have a feeling you wouldn't want to be heading to an English airport
cafe while being handled by French ATC, only to be violated by a
German air regulation enforcement officers? :-)

Neil Gould

October 3rd 06, 07:00 PM

Recently, Larry Dighera > posted:

> On Tue, 03 Oct 2006 12:24:20 +0200, Stefan >
> wrote in >:
>
>> I have to agree in this point: They *do* drive insanely.
>
> You haven't been to Italy.
>
No kidding! I was driving on the Amalfi Coast toward Naples when two buses
travelling in opposite directions approached a tight turn. That slowed
traffic to a near stop, which was quite reasonable under the
circumstances, but then some jerk on a motocycle tried to pass *between*
the two buses! Ay yi yi.

Then, there's Torre del Greco... a town about 6 blocks long and 4 blocks
wide that you can find on almost any map of Italy. After driving there, I
figure its inclusion on the map is a warning.

Neil

Sylvain

October 3rd 06, 07:59 PM

Stefan wrote:

> Yes, hunting... I overlooked the word "countryside". Although I'll never
> understand this fascination either, I was talking about guns in
> otherwise civilised environment. Heck, I assume you understood very well
> against which mindset I was tackling.

yes I did understood what you meant (I think); I just was pointing out that
this mindset might be more widespread than you thought, :-)

--Sylvain

Sylvain

October 3rd 06, 08:01 PM

Larry Dighera wrote:

> to Italians. But in those European countries you don't have to dodge
> bullets like you do on Los Angeles freeways:

where is the fun then? :-)

--Sylvain

ps the only time I got shot at while in my car was in Europe, but
I digress

Roger (K8RI)

October 3rd 06, 09:11 PM

What's a troll?

Just a tad faster than I can row to keep the bait off the bottom.
All I catch that way are a few weeds and bottom feeders.<:-))

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

Skylune[_2_]

October 4th 06, 03:31 PM

Grumman-581 wrote:
> Jim Logajan wrote:
> > Wikipedia has a rather interesting article on the subject:
> >
> > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
>
> Interesting read... Of course, it just confirms my opinion that trolls
> should be shot on sight...

Agreed. Boyer's newletter is really appalling, annoying, and intended
just to irritate.

mike regish

October 5th 06, 01:36 AM

Think the stresses on the metal tank might have anything to do with it?
I also like Grumman's explanation above, but just speculating...

mike

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
>>The expansion only lasts until the tank is full to ambient pressure-a very
>>short time. Then it is all compression.
>
> No, this is the same argument I met with at the scuba group.
> You have to use the volume of the gas and the pressure of
> the gas. You start with oxy at say 2000 psi =P1 in the main
> tank of volume V1, and you let it expand until it's filled
> the main tank V1 plus the empty small tank of V2 at a final
> pressure of say 1600 psi=P2
>
> starting volume of gas=V1
> starting pressure = P1
>
> final volume of gas= V1+V2
> final pressure = P2
>
> --
> Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and
> metal.
>
> - Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.'

mike regish

October 6th 06, 11:47 AM

But temperature *is* a measure of energy.

mike

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
>>Think the stresses on the metal tank might have anything to do with it?
>
> No.
>
>>I also like Grumman's explanation above, but just speculating...
>
> Read my enthalpy/entropy response to Grumman. He's confused
> conservation of energy with conservation of temperature.
>
> --
> Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and
> metal.
>
> - Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.'

Matt Whiting

October 6th 06, 10:03 PM

mike regish wrote:

> But temperature *is* a measure of energy.

It is a partial measure of energy. It doesn't measure potential energy.

Matt

mike regish

October 6th 06, 11:03 PM

This thing has me curious. I just found this little tidbit. See what you
think.

It comes from the work done compressing the gas in the cylinder.

The Temperature changes in response to compression due to addition of
more molecules of air to the closed, fixed-volume cylinder. Work is
produced. Temperature rises.

The temperature must change by following Ideal Gas Law:

P V = N k T

Where P = pressure, V = volume, N = number of gas molecules, k = is
Boltzman's constant and T is Kelvin.

The equation must balance. Pick any system of gasses at a specific
pressure, temperature and volume. Change any of those four conditions,
the others must change proportionately.

See also, http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLaw.html

mike

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>
>> But temperature *is* a measure of energy.
>
> It is a partial measure of energy. It doesn't measure potential energy.
>
> Matt

mike regish

October 6th 06, 11:15 PM

What other form of energy are we talking about here?

mike

"T o d d P a t t i s t" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote:
>
>>But temperature *is* a measure of energy.
>>mike
>
> What's your point? Conservation of energy does not require
> conservation of temperature. That's illustrated by the fact
> that reversible expansion of all the gas causes all the gas
> to cool. Temperature changed for the gas, but energy was
> conserved.
> --
> Rule books are paper - they will not cushion a sudden meeting of stone and
> metal.
>
> - Ernest K. Gann, 'Fate is the Hunter.'

Matt Whiting

October 7th 06, 12:20 AM

mike regish wrote:

> This thing has me curious. I just found this little tidbit. See what you
> think.
>
> It comes from the work done compressing the gas in the cylinder.
>
> The Temperature changes in response to compression due to addition of
> more molecules of air to the closed, fixed-volume cylinder. Work is
> produced. Temperature rises.
>
> The temperature must change by following Ideal Gas Law:
>
> P V = N k T
>
> Where P = pressure, V = volume, N = number of gas molecules, k = is
> Boltzman's constant and T is Kelvin.
>
> The equation must balance. Pick any system of gasses at a specific
> pressure, temperature and volume. Change any of those four conditions,
> the others must change proportionately.
>
> See also, http://scienceworld.wolfram.com/physics/IdealGasLaw.html
>
> mike
>
> "Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
> ...
>
>>mike regish wrote:
>>
>>
>>>But temperature *is* a measure of energy.
>>
>>It is a partial measure of energy. It doesn't measure potential energy.
>>
>>Matt

Yes, so what is your point with respect to temperature as a measure of
energy?

Matt

mike regish

October 7th 06, 01:33 AM

Not a thing.

mike
>
> Yes, so what is your point with respect to temperature as a measure of
> energy?
>
> Matt

Matt Whiting

October 7th 06, 03:38 AM

mike regish wrote:
> Not a thing.
>
> mike
>
>>Yes, so what is your point with respect to temperature as a measure of
>>energy?
>>
>>Matt

OK, I was trying to figure out the connection and didn't see one. :-)

Matt

mike regish

October 7th 06, 11:58 AM

My point was that I don't understand where the confusion is as to where the
heat comes from in filling a scuba tank. You are cramming a whole crapload
of molecules into a confined space and it makes heat. If you cram those
molecules into that space quickly (with respect to how fast you can
dissipate that heat) you get a VERY hot tank. This formula just explains it
better to me, though it doesn't seem to satisfy some as an explanation. It's
the same as a deisel engine except that rather than increasing the number of
molecules of air, the deisel decreases the volume of a fixed number of
molecules. It does it rapidly, so there's no time to dissipate the generated
heat through the cylinder walls, and the air heats up enough to ignite the
fuel when it's added by the injector. If you filled up the scuba tank very
slowly, giving it time to give up its heat to the surroundings (they're
filled in a water tank, no?), then it would not get so hot. I'm guessing
that they are filled from a pressurized tank. That TANK will get cold due to
the decreasing number of molecules in it as the scuba tank fills.

I guess I just don't get where all the confusion comes from. What do scuba
tanks get filled to? Something like 2 or 3 THOUSAND psi, no?

mike

"Matt Whiting" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish wrote:
>> Not a thing.
>>
>> mike
>>
>>>Yes, so what is your point with respect to temperature as a measure of
>>>energy?
>>>
>>>Matt
>
> OK, I was trying to figure out the connection and didn't see one. :-)
>
> Matt

Jose[_1_]

October 7th 06, 02:04 PM

> My point was that I don't understand where the confusion is as to where the
> heat comes from in filling a scuba tank. You are cramming a whole crapload
> of molecules into a confined space and it makes heat.

Yes, but you are cramming a whole crapload of =cold= molecules into that
space. The heat generated seems like it wouldn't be enough to
compensate for the cold of the inflowing gas.

That gas is cold because it expanded from the other tank, which was
under even higher pressure.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Morgans[_2_]

October 7th 06, 02:59 PM

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>> My point was that I don't understand where the confusion is as to where the
>> heat comes from in filling a scuba tank. You are cramming a whole crapload of
>> molecules into a confined space and it makes heat.
>
> Yes, but you are cramming a whole crapload of =cold= molecules into that
> space. The heat generated seems like it wouldn't be enough to compensate for
> the cold of the inflowing gas.
>
> That gas is cold because it expanded from the other tank, which was under even
> higher pressure.

The gas in the tank that is expanding has all of the cold being produced, shared
among all of the gas in the tank, not just the gas that is leaving the tank.

If the cold was contained in, and limited to just the molecules that were
leaving, then the tank being compressed might not get hot. That is not
happening though, and much of the cold is left behind in the now, very cold
tank.
--
Jim in NC

mike regish

October 7th 06, 04:02 PM

The gas coming in isn't cold. The gas left in the filling tank is cold. The
gas coming into the scuba tank isn't expanding all that much...a little
through the lines, and a little as it comes into the lower pressure scuba
tank, but no that much.

mike

"Jose" > wrote in message
et...
>> My point was that I don't understand where the confusion is as to where
>> the heat comes from in filling a scuba tank. You are cramming a whole
>> crapload of molecules into a confined space and it makes heat.
>
> Yes, but you are cramming a whole crapload of =cold= molecules into that
> space. The heat generated seems like it wouldn't be enough to compensate
> for the cold of the inflowing gas.
>
> That gas is cold because it expanded from the other tank, which was under
> even higher pressure.
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

Grumman-581[_3_]

October 7th 06, 04:36 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
...
> (they're filled in a water tank, no?),

That practice tends to be discouraged these days... It has been determined
that a slow fill is better... There are some that say that especially with
aluminum tanks, the water tank method is especially bad since the
temperature of the surface of the metal might be radically different than
the temperature of the inner metal thus increasing the chance of fractures
in the metal...

mike regish

October 7th 06, 05:38 PM

That makes sense. It's been a while since I got mine filled, but they did it
in a water tank.

In researching this, I found scuba divers complaining about "hot fills"
where the tank is filled too rapidly and when it cools down they are left
with a less-than-full tank.

mike

"Grumman-581"
> "mike regish" > wrote in message

>> (they're filled in a water tank, no?),
>
> That practice tends to be discouraged these days... It has been determined
> that a slow fill is better... There are some that say that especially with
> aluminum tanks, the water tank method is especially bad since the
> temperature of the surface of the metal might be radically different than
> the temperature of the inner metal thus increasing the chance of fractures
> in the metal...
>
>

Grumman-581[_3_]

October 8th 06, 05:09 AM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> In researching this, I found scuba divers complaining about "hot fills"
> where the tank is filled too rapidly and when it cools down they are left
> with a less-than-full tank.

I suspect that the water bath approach just results in the skin temperature
of the tank being cooler whereas the gas hasn't really decreased that much
in temperature... Thus, they're still getting "hot fills", they just don't
notice it... The easiest solution to hot fills is to just fill it higher
than normal and when it cools, it's at the target pressure... Or you could
just do it right and slowly fill the tank...

mike regish

October 8th 06, 11:53 AM

Well, the water bath does keep the skin cooler, but that is because the
water increases the tanks ability to shed the heat produced in the gas. The
heat goes from the gas to the tank to the water. Over filling the tank and
letting it cool could over stress the tank. Not a good idea, IMO. Like you
say, much better to fill it slowly enough for the heat to dissipate to the
surroundings, be it air or water, and you get a full tank. Those tanks are
already under tremendous stresses without not only going over pressure, but
doing it when the tank is hot and the tanks strength could be weakened with
enough heat.

mike

"Grumman-581" > wrote in message
...
> "mike regish" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> In researching this, I found scuba divers complaining about "hot fills"
>> where the tank is filled too rapidly and when it cools down they are left
>> with a less-than-full tank.
>
> I suspect that the water bath approach just results in the skin
> temperature
> of the tank being cooler whereas the gas hasn't really decreased that much
> in temperature... Thus, they're still getting "hot fills", they just don't
> notice it... The easiest solution to hot fills is to just fill it higher
> than normal and when it cools, it's at the target pressure... Or you could
> just do it right and slowly fill the tank...
>
>

Grumman-581[_3_]

October 8th 06, 04:17 PM

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> Well, the water bath does keep the skin cooler, but that is because the
> water increases the tanks ability to shed the heat produced in the gas.
The
> heat goes from the gas to the tank to the water. Over filling the tank and
> letting it cool could over stress the tank. Not a good idea, IMO. Like you
> say, much better to fill it slowly enough for the heat to dissipate to the
> surroundings, be it air or water, and you get a full tank. Those tanks are
> already under tremendous stresses without not only going over pressure,
but
> doing it when the tank is hot and the tanks strength could be weakened
with
> enough heat.

More of a concern for the aluminum tanks than the steel ones... I've had
fills that were hot enough to the touch that I wouldn't keep my hands on
them... Probably not as hot as a black car left out in the sun during a
Houston summer though... <grin>

When they overfill them, they'll prehaps put 3300-3500 psi into a 3000 psi
tank... Considering what the hydro test pressure is for the tank, that's not
that big of a deal... One concern with a fast fill on aluminum tanks is that
since the tank is about 1/2 inch thick, there's a difference between the
surface temperature of the tank and the inner wall temperature which could
result in a greater chance of cracking... It is believed that having the
entire wall thickness the same temperature is less likely to produce a
problem... Well, at least that is what I've read on the issues over the
years... There's still come companies that fill with water baths and even
some who refrigerate the water in the bath, which probably further compounds
any potential problem that there might be... Personally, I prefer not having
my tanks filled in a water bath... If nothing else, it means that any
contaminates on the tank are at least my own doing, not what might have been
in the water bath tank...