CFII Loses Medical

[Bob Chilcoat]

I'm roughly 15 hours into my Instrument training, with a friend who is a
former Eastern and Kiwi pilot. Yesterday he had triple bypass surgery. We
discussed what to do, since I would like to continue my training with him.
We seem to be very compatible.

As far as either of us can tell from the FARs, little has changed except
that he can no longer serve as PIC, which means that I will need to fly with
someone else in IMC. However, it is not completely clear about simulated
instrument conditions. Sec. 91.109 states that:

"No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
flight unless--
(1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who
possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class
ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."

No mention is made as to whether or not that "possessed" certificate needs
to be current. Furthermore we can find nothing elsewhere in the regulations
about this. Any thoughts? Can I fly with my foggles on, with Ken in the
right seat?

--
Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[Jim Macklin]

You must fly most of your instrument training in actual or
simulated conditions.

A CFI or CFII does not need a medical to instruct.
A safety pilot IS required for simulated instrument
conditions. That safety pilot is required to be qualified
with at least a private pilot certificate and a category and
class rating in the airplane.

Your CFII could instruct from the back seat and your buddy,
a private pilot, could be the safety pilot in the front
seat.

Your CFII can instruct in simulators.

You should find a CFII with a medical for the smoothest
training. Who owns the airplane and buys the insurance?


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Bob Chilcoat" > wrote in
message ...
| I'm roughly 15 hours into my Instrument training, with a
friend who is a
| former Eastern and Kiwi pilot. Yesterday he had triple
bypass surgery. We
| discussed what to do, since I would like to continue my
training with him.
| We seem to be very compatible.
|
| As far as either of us can tell from the FARs, little has
changed except
| that he can no longer serve as PIC, which means that I
will need to fly with
| someone else in IMC. However, it is not completely clear
about simulated
| instrument conditions. Sec. 91.109 states that:
|
| "No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated
instrument
| flight unless--
| (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety
pilot who
| possesses at least a private pilot certificate with
category and class
| ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."
|
| No mention is made as to whether or not that "possessed"
certificate needs
| to be current. Furthermore we can find nothing elsewhere
in the regulations
| about this. Any thoughts? Can I fly with my foggles on,
with Ken in the
| right seat?
|
| --
| Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)
|
|
|

[Ron Natalie]

Bob Chilcoat wrote:

> "No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
> flight unless--
> (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who
> possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class
> ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."
>
Nothing has invalidated his pilot (or CFI) certificate. That's all you
need for 91.109.

HOWEVER 61.3 requires a CURRENT, VALID meidcal for required crew members
which he is at this point. We went around with this and the local FSDO
(and even the FAA HQ) trying so see if there was some "interpretation"
or waiver that could allow my instructor who was in a similar situation
to instruct hooded pilots.

[Robert M. Gary]

You only need 15 hours of CFII instruction before your checkride. In
theory the CFII could sit in the back offering advice, not logging
dual, while a private pilot sits in the rigtht seat and acts as safety
pilot (since you can not put on the hood while your CFII non-medical
guy is in the right seat).

-Robert


Bob Chilcoat wrote:
> I'm roughly 15 hours into my Instrument training, with a friend who is a
> former Eastern and Kiwi pilot. Yesterday he had triple bypass surgery. We
> discussed what to do, since I would like to continue my training with him.
> We seem to be very compatible.
>
> As far as either of us can tell from the FARs, little has changed except
> that he can no longer serve as PIC, which means that I will need to fly with
> someone else in IMC. However, it is not completely clear about simulated
> instrument conditions. Sec. 91.109 states that:
>
> "No person may operate a civil aircraft in simulated instrument
> flight unless--
> (1) The other control seat is occupied by a safety pilot who
> possesses at least a private pilot certificate with category and class
> ratings appropriate to the aircraft being flown."
>
> No mention is made as to whether or not that "possessed" certificate needs
> to be current. Furthermore we can find nothing elsewhere in the regulations
> about this. Any thoughts? Can I fly with my foggles on, with Ken in the
> right seat?
>
> --
> Bob (Chief Pilot, White Knuckle Airways)

[Sylvain]

Jim Macklin wrote:

> Your CFII could instruct from the back seat and your buddy,
> a private pilot, could be the safety pilot in the front
> seat.

I have served as a safety pilot in such situation and it
actually works great; not only that but it was really
educational for me as well.

....and all three of us got to log the time :-)


> You should find a CFII with a medical for the smoothest
> training. Who owns the airplane and buys the insurance?

there are huge differences in CFIIs abilities to teach, not
only in the quality of the instruction but also in the number
of hours to get the rating. It might very well be worth the
effort to stick with someone with the experience and teaching
competence (and drive! this guy is teaching while recovering
from a pretty traumatic life experience)

--Sylvain

[Sylvain]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> theory the CFII could sit in the back offering advice, not logging
> dual,

if he is instructing, he logs the time; nowhere does it say he
has to do it from the front seat...

--Sylvain

[zatatime]

On Fri, 29 Sep 2006 15:25:28 -0400, "Bob Chilcoat"
> wrote:

>I'm roughly 15 hours into my Instrument training, with a friend who is a
>former Eastern and Kiwi pilot. Yesterday he had triple bypass surgery. We
>discussed what to do, since I would like to continue my training with him.
>We seem to be very compatible.

Where do you fly out of?

z

[RST Engineering]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:bCeTg.667$XX2.170@dukeread04...
> You must fly most of your instrument training in actual or
> simulated conditions.

Oh, bull****.

Jim

[Jim Macklin]

The word most does not mean all. You need to learn many
skills, some can best be learned while watching outside even
when flying an ILS. But you can't log a demonstrated ILS in
visual conditions with outside reference as "instrument"
time. Doing the ILS and seeing what it really looks like is
important and will save time since it speeds up the learned
skill of visualization. But it isn't logable as instrument
time, just dual instruction.

You have a nice day.



"RST Engineering" > wrote in message
...
|
| "Jim Macklin" > wrote
in message
| news:bCeTg.667$XX2.170@dukeread04...
| > You must fly most of your instrument training in actual
or
| > simulated conditions.
|
| Oh, bull****.
|
| Jim
|
|

[Robert M. Gary]

Sylvain wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > theory the CFII could sit in the back offering advice, not logging
> > dual,
>
> if he is instructing, he logs the time; nowhere does it say he
> has to do it from the front seat...

I think you are stretching the FARs a bit. Are you saying you think its
ok to give instruction when there are dual controls but the instructor
can't access them? I don't think that would hold up in court.

91.109
(a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free
balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft
has fully functioning dual controls. ...

[Robert M. Gary]

RST Engineering wrote:
> "Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
> news:bCeTg.667$XX2.170@dukeread04...
> > You must fly most of your instrument training in actual or
> > simulated conditions.
>
> Oh, bull****.

It would be quiet odd to see an instrument applicant who had received
most of his training outside of instrument (acutal or simulated
conditions). I've certainly never heard of that and the examiner will
certainly require most (if not all) the tasks be done in simulated or
actual instrument. Also curious would be the required 40 hours of
instrument time required before the checkride.

-Robert, CFII

[Sylvain]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> I think you are stretching the FARs a bit. Are you saying you think its
> ok to give instruction when there are dual controls but the instructor
> can't access them?

yes. That said I don't think it mattered in this case -- the instructor
most probably didn't log (past a few tens of thousands of hours) and
the flight didn't have to be an instruction flight.

> 91.109
> (a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free
> balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft
> has fully functioning dual controls. ...

there is more to it than the intro you just quoted.

--Sylvain

[Robert M. Gary]

Sylvain wrote:
> Robert M. Gary wrote:
>
> > I think you are stretching the FARs a bit. Are you saying you think its
> > ok to give instruction when there are dual controls but the instructor
> > can't access them?
>
> yes. That said I don't think it mattered in this case -- the instructor
> most probably didn't log (past a few tens of thousands of hours) and
> the flight didn't have to be an instruction flight.
>
> > 91.109
> > (a) No person may operate a civil aircraft (except a manned free
> > balloon) that is being used for flight instruction unless that aircraft
> > has fully functioning dual controls. ...
>
> there is more to it than the intro you just quoted.

Yes, I left out the part about throw over controls (hence the ...).
You're trying to change the subject. The fact is it would be a very
large stretch from the FARs to say a CFII can log dual while sitting in
the back of the plane.

-Robert

[Jose[_1_]]

> The fact is it would be a very
> large stretch from the FARs to say a CFII
> can log dual while sitting in
> the back of the plane.

Why? While unusual, I don't see the problem at all. The instructor is
not required for the flight to be safe. The pilot in command is seated
at a control seat. Instruction can very effectively take place from the
back seat.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Ron Natalie]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

>
> Yes, I left out the part about throw over controls (hence the ...).
> You're trying to change the subject. The fact is it would be a very
> large stretch from the FARs to say a CFII can log dual while sitting in
> the back of the plane.
>
Throw over controls...that brings up an off-topic but amusing story.
Yesterday, Margy and I were being given a ride in a friend's Seabee.
Since we were departing from the water, we had boarded through the
bow door and hence the right control yoke had been removed. After
takeoff the pilot asked if I wanted to fly. "Margy, pass Ron the
control yoke for his side." Took me a minute to figure out how to
install it, but I got it in.