oct 2 report to members

[5-BG]

Reading this report left me with some questions and prompts some editorial comments;
questions:
1. it seems that perhaps the financial misrepresentations could have been comprised of two distinct parts. Actual misappropriation of ssa funds by someone and covered up. AND perhaps spending beyond society means. Misappropriation is covered, hopefully , by insurance. Overspending is not. The question I have is did the SSA overspend its resources while at the same time get ripped off? If it is a 100% rip off of funds, then the insurance company should make good our loss. If there is a significant element of simple fiscal irresponsibility, then the ssa is out of luck in terms of recovering the shortfall in cash.

2. No mention was made of any discussion of possible conflict of interest among the board. No mention was made of any discussion by the board of their potential personal liability, either as ssa board or as foundation board members. Was this topic discussed? I find it difficult to believe that no one brought it up.

3. No mention was made of services to be curtailed or the terms of the loan from the foundation. If they don't have a plan by now, we are in trouble big time. What services will be curtailed?

comments:
1. It seems as if Chip is back in the fold after going public with his concerns re board actions. We have yet to be told of his complaints to the board and what actions they took to satisfy his concerns. This seems to me to be of legitimate concern to members.

2. The resignation of the ED basically leaves SSA WITHOUT an effective lobbyist for our interests. Since this is one of the main reasons for the existence of the society, I would assume that some sort of outsourcing of this function will be undertaken.It would be nice for the membership to be informed of how this function is to be handled if at all during the repayment period and the restructuring period.

3. The issue of the magazine was not addressed. This seems to me to be an immediate item ripe for drastic cutback. It is the single largest annual expense. Was the option of going all electronic discussed??? A 12 month halt in print publication would probably save almost enough to pay the loan back.

4. The restructuring task force has a large job in front of it if it is to succeed. I would hope that a timeline is being formulated and that the task is structured such that the members are presented with a series of choices along the way. So far, the excom and rest of the board have not presented members with any choices. They have taken the position that they were elected to run the show and that job extends to the task of total restructuring.
I disagree. They were elected to do a job and they failed miserably at the task of oversight. They were elected to oversee an smooth running organization and they did not.
They were NOT elected to radically restructure the organization. This is NOT business as usual. I have no confidence in them at this point. The chair wrote in her second note to members "Once the Society emerges from this awful situation, our intent is to tender resignations in respect of our leadership positions, hoping that new, qualified individuals will assume these roles."

I would suggest that the current excom borrow the immediately needed funds from the BANK rather than digging their personal hole any deeper and then follow through on this promise to resign immediately. The immediate fires will have been put out and fresh faces should be enlisted to run the show during this next year.
5bg

[Jay]

5-BG wrote: -- insert drivel here --

When and if you ever choose to identify yourself then your thoughts and
comments might have some merit for consideration ...
Until then ... ***POOF***

[Willie]

5-BG wrote:
> Reading this report left me with some questions and prompts some editorial comments;
> questions:
> 1. it seems that...
>
> 2. I find it difficult to believe...
>
> 3. If they don't have a plan by now...
>
> comments:
> 1. It seems as if...
>
> 2. I would assume that...
>
> 3. This seems to me to be ...
>
> 4. I would hope that...
>
> I disagree. They were elected to do...
> They were NOT elected to...

> hoping that new, qualified individuals will assume these roles."
>
> I would suggest that...
> 5bg

Hey there 5BG,

Well, It looks like there will be some openings coming up
shortly in the SSA executive committee. Since you seem
to have all the insight and knowledge of what to do, maybe you
should run for a position.

You could even offer your services as Executive Director.

I don't think you will though, because you don't even have the
stones to sign your name to your ranting post.

You are like the heckler in the back of the room making snide and
sniping comments hiding in the shadows.

Come on, since you seem to be so full of editorial comments,
step up to the plate and offer your services to the SSA.

Otherwise, your anonymous comments are nothing more than
a fart in the wind.

You can easily find me in the SSA member directory.

Willie Geiselmann

[Frank Reid]

Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!

Come on chicken speak up or shut up!

Warmest Regards,

Frank Reid

[[email protected]]

Frank:
"Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"

No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
class or character.

It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
transpired.

The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".

I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.

But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
days.


Frank Reid wrote:
> Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
>
> Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Frank Reid

[Pete Reinhart]

Dear 5-BG,
Absent identifying youself, your credibility is absent as well.
Though you raise some possibly valid points, your audience grows smaller by the hour.
Thus, as so well said by another poster on this thread,
POOF!!!!
Signed, for all the world to see, Pete Reinhart, Life Member
"5-BG" <5-bghatesspam @ fake.com> wrote in message ...
Reading this report left me with some questions and prompts some editorial comments;
questions:
1. it seems that perhaps the financial misrepresentations could have been comprised of two distinct parts. Actual misappropriation of ssa funds by someone and covered up. AND perhaps spending beyond society means. Misappropriation is covered, hopefully , by insurance. Overspending is not. The question I have is did the SSA overspend its resources while at the same time get ripped off? If it is a 100% rip off of funds, then the insurance company should make good our loss. If there is a significant element of simple fiscal irresponsibility, then the ssa is out of luck in terms of recovering the shortfall in cash.

2. No mention was made of any discussion of possible conflict of interest among the board. No mention was made of any discussion by the board of their potential personal liability, either as ssa board or as foundation board members. Was this topic discussed? I find it difficult to believe that no one brought it up.

3. No mention was made of services to be curtailed or the terms of the loan from the foundation. If they don't have a plan by now, we are in trouble big time. What services will be curtailed?

comments:
1. It seems as if Chip is back in the fold after going public with his concerns re board actions. We have yet to be told of his complaints to the board and what actions they took to satisfy his concerns. This seems to me to be of legitimate concern to members.

2. The resignation of the ED basically leaves SSA WITHOUT an effective lobbyist for our interests. Since this is one of the main reasons for the existence of the society, I would assume that some sort of outsourcing of this function will be undertaken.It would be nice for the membership to be informed of how this function is to be handled if at all during the repayment period and the restructuring period.

3. The issue of the magazine was not addressed. This seems to me to be an immediate item ripe for drastic cutback. It is the single largest annual expense. Was the option of going all electronic discussed??? A 12 month halt in print publication would probably save almost enough to pay the loan back.

4. The restructuring task force has a large job in front of it if it is to succeed. I would hope that a timeline is being formulated and that the task is structured such that the members are presented with a series of choices along the way. So far, the excom and rest of the board have not presented members with any choices. They have taken the position that they were elected to run the show and that job extends to the task of total restructuring.
I disagree. They were elected to do a job and they failed miserably at the task of oversight. They were elected to oversee an smooth running organization and they did not.
They were NOT elected to radically restructure the organization. This is NOT business as usual. I have no confidence in them at this point. The chair wrote in her second note to members "Once the Society emerges from this awful situation, our intent is to tender resignations in respect of our leadership positions, hoping that new, qualified individuals will assume these roles."

I would suggest that the current excom borrow the immediately needed funds from the BANK rather than digging their personal hole any deeper and then follow through on this promise to resign immediately. The immediate fires will have been put out and fresh faces should be enlisted to run the show during this next year.
5bg

[Frank Reid]

Pete,

I sorry I did not get your last name. Are you another like 5BG who is
too gutless to sign your posts? Maybe you and 5BG can form a club of
chicken****, gutless, cowards who mouth off but don't even have the
balls to identify themselves.

Funny you shoud mention responsibility and accountability and yet you
will not even take responsibility for your own post. You hide behind
Pete... Surely your last name is not "...". That would really be a
stupid last name, huh?

Warmest Regards Coward,

Frank Reid


wrote:
> Frank:
> "Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"
>
> No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
> class or character.
>
> It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
> train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
> ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
> transpired.
>
> The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
> "We have to rearrange the deck chairs".
>
> I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
> penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
> The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.
>
> But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
> days.
>
>
> Frank Reid wrote:
> > Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> > and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> > been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> > the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> > standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> > are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> > Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
> >
> > Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
> >
> > Warmest Regards,
> >
> > Frank Reid

[5-BG]

peter you wrote" reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".
Another reaction, mainly by life members and insiders who presided over this mess is to attack people who raise valid points, not on the substance of their message but on the trivial issue of whether or not they choose to identify themselves in a public forum. I choose not to place my name on posts for what I consider to be personal and very valid reasons. My signature should have very little to do with the points I raise. I am a nobody in the soaring community. While some may recognize my name from outside the soaring community arena, my identity has no import within the soaring community. I am not a contest pilot. I have not been active in any ssa governance. I am a simple member and have been to many years. one of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by the high profile "big names" who ran this organization for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into the ground.
The soaring society inside establishment has rallied to the defense of the status quo and seeks to deflect the discussion to that of who is posting what.
The issues are real. The train wreck is getting worse. The hole is getting deeper. The general membership is, imho, getting more disenfranchised by the day. Accountability is being shifted. responsibility diffused. Committees are being formed to study the problem.
information is being withheld and then only brought out a bit at a time. Case in point.. I just read the recently posted excom minutes which reveal that a donation of 84,000 was diverted and most of it never made it to fidelity. This info came to light just a week or so after the excom and treasurer gave assurances that all foundation money was accounted for. 84 grand is a sizeable chunk. how could they miss this???
when you cannot dispute the message with logic and facts, attack the messenger on a personal level.
I read in the bylaws "
ARTICLE VI - SUSPENSION, EXPULSION, ETC.

SECTION 1 - Any member may be dropped from the roll of membership for nonpayment of dues; and any member whose activities are deemed hostile to the objectives or injurious to the purpose of the Society, or who violates its bylaws or established rules, may be removed from office, suspended or expelled from the Society by vote of the Board of Directors. "

I guess that means me if the board decides that it doesn't like criticism.. I am openly hostile to the objectives of the current board which I perceive to be self preservation and limiting personal responsibility. .

BUT WHO THROWS OUT THE BOARD if it knowingly and willfully violates the bylaws???

SECTION 2 - Annually, after the close of the fiscal year, the books and accounts shall be audited by an independent accounting firm and the findings and opinions of the firm published and distributed to the Directors, and to others requesting same.



THE BOARD CLEARLY VIOLATED THE BYLAWS.. no ands ifs or buts.. They are clearly in conflict of interest as section one specifies that the board has the power to throw out anyone who violates the bylaws.. There were no provisions for members to institute a recall process..

so the ssa is stuck with a board that is making decisions for the future that has the power to expel any with a hostile attitude but that also has the sole power to judge itself. The LEGITIMACY of this board and excom is seriously in question.



THIS SUCKS..

So I suggest to those of you who are life members, big names, directors, and insiders, that you consider the points raised by the faceless masses that you have for so long considered a necessary evil to be tolerated because they pay dues to support your self aggrandizing efforts and pet projects. . I challenge you right now to address my conclusion that the current board should be tossed out on the basis of the bylaws.

By the way, I also read in recent minutes that the excom is going to change the bylaws to eliminate the requirement for an annual audit.. NOW THIS MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE given recent events.. but then, they are vested with the power ( sole) to change bylaws. too bad they cannot make change retroactive..

this trainwreck is getting worse by the day. a measure of just how much worse is the degree to which insiders try to deflect meaningful questions, opinions and analysis by attacking a nobody on a personal basis because he exercises his right not to divulge his name in a public forum.



Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable explanation of the desire to remain faceless.

so to all you big names, directors,life members and other insiders who don't want to deal with the train wreck, SCREW YOU VERY MUCH

A faceless member (5bg)





A




> wrote in message oups.com...
Frank:
"Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"

No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
class or character.

It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
transpired.

The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".

I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.

But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
days.


Frank Reid wrote:
> Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
>
> Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Frank Reid

[[email protected]]

Frank:

"Maybe you and 5BG can form a club of
chicken****, gutless, cowards who mouth off but don't even have the
balls to identify themselves."

This is the internet, Frank, so everyone is anonymous. There's no way
to confirm anyone's ID. In case you haven't noticed, you aren't a
tough guy or the playground bully just because you act the part on the
internet.

You certainly represent what's wrong with message boards, the SSA and
the soaring community.

Instead of reacting to the outrageous SSA email to the membership sent
last night, you go around bashing people who are outraged with the SSA!

Frank, do you have half a BRAIN?!

You attack people who disagree with you such as 5BG even when he
offered a reasoned argument for his point of view.

If you can't take the heat, Frank, get out of the kitchen.

Signed,
You_hurt_my_feelins


Frank Reid wrote:
> Pete,
>
> I sorry I did not get your last name. Are you another like 5BG who is
> too gutless to sign your posts? >
> Funny you shoud mention responsibility and accountability and yet you
> will not even take responsibility for your own post. You hide behind
> Pete... Surely your last name is not "...". That would really be a
> stupid last name, huh?
>
> Warmest Regards Coward,
>
> Frank Reid
>
>
> wrote:
> > Frank:
> > "Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"
> >
> > No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
> > class or character.
> >
> > It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
> > train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
> > ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
> > transpired.
> >
> > The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
> > "We have to rearrange the deck chairs".
> >
> > I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
> > penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
> > The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.
> >
> > But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
> > days.
> >
> >
> > Frank Reid wrote:
> > > Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> > > and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> > > been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> > > the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> > > standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> > > are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> > > Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
> > >
> > > Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
> > >
> > > Warmest Regards,
> > >
> > > Frank Reid

[Airjunkie]

Children, SHhhhhh!!!! The solution is to join forces with the well
established and solid hang gliding and paragliding community to form
the United States Soaring Association. The hang glider guys would beat
the crap out of all you old duffs and straighten this mess out.
Waddaya think of that?

[Brian Glick]

So that my friends among soaring, who know that I can be very outspoken at
times, do not think that 5-BG is me. I will tell you that, I sign all my
posts, and I am not one to go off half cocked and not list my name. If I say
it, I will say it to your face.

With that said, I also do not agree with a full house cleaning of the SSA
EXComm. They decided to do this by themselves, so I guess that we will all
have to live with it. BUT, anyone who knows these people know that they were
duped bigtime while trying to do a thankless job. I have watched over the
years as Diane and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the
world team, and to better soaring as a whole. To take blanket shots at her
now is just without education, or common respect enough to get to know her
and the rest of the EXCOMM for that matter. I REPEAT what I said earlier.
Tone it down, and let them do their jobs. Every single one of you that has
been so short and quick to critisize, had better have their names on for
director the next election. Otherwise, I second what Frank Reid said, in
just as strong of language, and I will not be afraid to say that to your
face!!!! Shame on all of you!!!!!

Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA

"Frank Reid" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
>
> Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Frank Reid
>

[Stewart Kissel]

Clipped from the nameless wonder....

I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
the ground.

Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
explanation of the desire to remain faceless.


I did just that.....
SLAPP suit

A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
which a corporation or developer sues an organization
in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
the environment--for example, local residents who are
petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
interference with the developer's business interests.
Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
government.

So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
come knocking at your door if you come up with the
courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
we speak :)

How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?

[Tony Verhulst]

Airjunkie wrote:
> Children, SHhhhhh!!!! The solution is to join forces with the well
> established and solid hang gliding and paragliding community to form
> the United States Soaring Association. The hang glider guys would beat
> the crap out of all you old duffs and straighten this mess out.
> Waddaya think of that?

Amazing, isn't it? Those hippy freaks flinging themselves from mountain
tops with rag wings have a more professional organization, have a better
quality magazine, member liability insurance, site preservation system,
and (BGA like) effective rating system, than the sailplane guys.

Tony V
SSA 861766
USHPA 8671 (yeah, four digits :-( :-) )
(just so I won't be accused of not using my real identity :-) )

[5-BG]

to brian glick and frank reid and others.

There are two possible reasons that I can see for your fixation on the signature to posts.
1. you are trying to divert the discussion from its essence and to make the poster(me) the issue. A tried and proven Washington political tactic that does not work.
2, you are truly ignorant of the tradition of anomoninity that exists in the UNITED STATES.

I can do nothing if you fall into the first camp, but can offer a reasoned discussion of the tradition that exists within the United States that encourages and protects free and anonymous speech. read on if you choose to be enlightened. if your motive is to divert, hit delete now.

Within our country ( USA) there has evolved a tradition, that is protected, which encourages anonymous information to be disseminated. Whether you be a FOX watcher or a NY TIMES reader, your news is often derived from UNNAMED HIGH ADMINISTRATION OFFICIALS, or unnamed elected officials, or unnamed government functionaries who speak on condition of remaining unnamed. It is the reporters job to verify the accuracy of the information, not to reveal the name.
Bob Woodward brought down the Nixon administration with the information supplied by DEEP THROAT. History is replete with many many instances of unnamed sources blowing the whistle on government wrongdoing.
WHILE I do NOT condone the leaking of legitimately classified national security information, as this is a criminal offense, the anonymous leaking of information is a widely practiced art of national and local politics. Overclassification ( read adjourning to administrative session)) is also a practiced art of a government that is seeking to hide information from the public. Likewise of a board that is seeking to control a situation.

Bush hates unauthorized leaks, but makes liberal use of deep background discussions between high officials ( such as dick cheney) to get a message out . no names are attached.. does that make the information invalid?

The US Senate has a rule which permits a Senator to place an ANONYMOUS HOLD on a bill or appointment. Nothing will happen until the hold is removed and the senator's name is not made public. This is an old tradition and has a real basis in logic.
I could go on and on, but the point is that the IDEAS and opinions are what should be subject to debate. Adding a name is basically irrelevant unless one wants to enhance an argument by evoking an association to a specific name.

There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
1. He may be a sitting judge.
2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.

NONE of these ( and many more) reasons add or subtract one little bit from the IDEAS, and OPINIONS presented by someone who exercises his right to remain anonymous. You retain the right to hit the delete button. it is a free country.

BUT be clear, seeking to divert the discussion does absolutely NOTHING towards resolving the problem or to clear the tracks of the train wreck that is in progress. Your obsession with who I am and not with my thoughts, opinions and cited facts is a clear indication that you seek to protect the establishment by diverting the conversation.
If you have learned anything from recent current events it should be that the facts and ideas that are presented anonymously follow a separate track from the discussion of who divulged the information. In the long run, it matters little who blows the whistle on government abuse of authority, it is the national discussion of the abuse that matters. The national discussion of NSA eavesdropping, of CIA secret prisons, Of homeland security regulations, of giving up individual rights towards the goal of counterterrorism of many other issues will be resolved at the polls very soon. unnamed leakers and off the record opinions play a big roll in the outcome. Both parties seek political advantage and use unnamed sources.

we are discussing abuse. it does not matter who I am. it is the discussion of a tradition of abuse that has evolved within the ssa among the INSIDERS that is in question. It is the discussion of how to change the organization to make it more relevant to the general membership that matters.
You mention that the chair and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the national team. That is a nice project. it is, however not relevant to my interests. Was her devotion to this task such that other projects were shortchanged? was I asked as a member if I approved of this project? It is my clear view that the "insiders who run the show" are committed to a set of values which may be diverging from that of the general membership.

So challenge my facts, disagree with my opinions, but park the bull**** attacks on me for not signing my name. As I said, that is either a transparent diversionary tactic, or ignorance.

a concerned ssa member.






"Brian Glick" > wrote in message ink.net...
So that my friends among soaring, who know that I can be very outspoken at
times, do not think that 5-BG is me. I will tell you that, I sign all my
posts, and I am not one to go off half cocked and not list my name. If I say
it, I will say it to your face.

With that said, I also do not agree with a full house cleaning of the SSA
EXComm. They decided to do this by themselves, so I guess that we will all
have to live with it. BUT, anyone who knows these people know that they were
duped bigtime while trying to do a thankless job. I have watched over the
years as Diane and her husband have worked tirelessly to raise funds for the
world team, and to better soaring as a whole. To take blanket shots at her
now is just without education, or common respect enough to get to know her
and the rest of the EXCOMM for that matter. I REPEAT what I said earlier.
Tone it down, and let them do their jobs. Every single one of you that has
been so short and quick to critisize, had better have their names on for
director the next election. Otherwise, I second what Frank Reid said, in
just as strong of language, and I will not be afraid to say that to your
face!!!! Shame on all of you!!!!!

Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA

"Frank Reid" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
>
> Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Frank Reid
>

[5-BG]

to stewart kissel
"How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?
They raise issues for discussion among reasonable people who are interested in the issues.
"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in message ...
Clipped from the nameless wonder....

I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
the ground.

Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
explanation of the desire to remain faceless.


I did just that.....
SLAPP suit

A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
which a corporation or developer sues an organization
in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
the environment--for example, local residents who are
petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
interference with the developer's business interests.
Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
government.

So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
come knocking at your door if you come up with the
courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
we speak :)

How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?

[Brian Glick]

Stewart

My point exactly. This individual may have some very valid points, and I
agree with some of them. He has absolutely no means to get his points heard
or considered by blogging them out here without courage to allow someone to
respond. All of the anonomous "leaks" he refers to in his earlier post are
indeed true, but those people have a whole lot to lose, and nothing to gain
in the long run. The amount of money and\or power abuse that happens in
national government needs many more leaks. This situation does not even hold
a candle to his examples. I also think that the critical point he makes
about "insiders" is just bull****. I will quit responding to anything he
says, because he insults people that he has not a clue about, and does not
have the guts to tell them who he is so they can personally addess his
concerns. I know many of them, and they would be happy to address his
concerns as well. Enough said. Now stear this discussion back to what
matters, REAL SOLUTIONS, and not more baseless accusations and innuendo!!!
Be a part of the solution, not the problem!!! And Stewart.....that was not
aimed at you!

As I always do
SIGNED......Brian Glick
Mifflin, PA


"Stewart Kissel" > wrote in
message ...
> Clipped from the nameless wonder....
>
> I am a simple member and have been to many years. one
> of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by
> the high profile 'big names' who ran this organization
> for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into
> the ground.
>
> Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable
> explanation of the desire to remain faceless.
>
>
> I did just that.....
> SLAPP suit
>
> A Strategic Lawsuit Against Public Participation, in
> which a corporation or developer sues an organization
> in an attempt to scare it into dropping protests against
> a corporate initiative. SLAPP suits typically involve
> the environment--for example, local residents who are
> petitioning to change zoning laws to prevent a real
> estate development might be sued in a SLAPP suit for
> interference with the developer's business interests.
> Many states have 'anti-SLAPP suit' statutes that protect
> citizens' rights to free speech and to petition the
> government.
>
> So some guys in suits and dark glasses are going to
> come knocking at your door if you come up with the
> courage to use your name to your rants? I am sure
> the 'big names' are searching for your IP address as
> we speak :)
>
> How are your anonymous dribbles contributing to a solution?
>
>
>

[[email protected]]

This enduring topic on the recent problems with the SSA has reminded me
of the short but insightful book "The Dog Poop Initiative" by Kirk
Weisler. In the book, Mr. Weisler describes different types of people:

Poopers - those that leave behind messes for others to deal with.
Pointers - those that spend all their time calling attention to the
mess but do nothing to clean it up.
Scoopers - those that just pitch in and get the mess cleaned up.

While the anonymous 5-BG could still prove me wrong, his/her posts have
given me cause to categorize 5-BG as a Pointer. Because of this, I am
one one those that just ignore the posts based on author alone. Too
bad, because that is probably the opposite of what 5-BG wants.

Horst
L33

[Frank Reid]

Pete dot dot dot,

What you said to me is Bla Bla Bla Bla I'm still a chicken**** gutless
coward like 5BG who still has no balls and will not even sign your
posts. You say "everyone is anonymous". Maybe the next Excom should
be the same way. I'm sure you would not whine over that. You and 5BG
are gutles wonders who are the best examples of what members of any
organization should not be. You contribute nothing and bitch when
something goes wrong. Both you and 5BG are hereby charter members of
the CGCC (Chicken**** Gutless Cowards Club). T shirts are available
but I know you won't get one because you have to give your address for
shipping.

The logo of the CGCC is a small yellow chicken peeking out from behind
a monitor with all the lights out. Sounds right to me.

I'm not trying to be a tough guy on the playground, just trying to get
you gutless wonders to identify yourselves. Why is that so hard for
you? Are you really that gutless?

Pete dot dot dot, I not only have a brain, but I also have a name.
Certainly you are missing at least half of the above and probably all.
Come on Pete dot dot dot. How can you live with yourself being such a
coward? You are indeed a charter member of the CGCC.

Until your next chicken **** gutless coward post I say good by.

Warmest Regards to you and other members of the CGCC.

Frank Reid


wrote:
> Frank:
>
> "Maybe you and 5BG can form a club of
> chicken****, gutless, cowards who mouth off but don't even have the
> balls to identify themselves."
>
> This is the internet, Frank, so everyone is anonymous. There's no way
> to confirm anyone's ID. In case you haven't noticed, you aren't a
> tough guy or the playground bully just because you act the part on the
> internet.
>
> You certainly represent what's wrong with message boards, the SSA and
> the soaring community.
>
> Instead of reacting to the outrageous SSA email to the membership sent
> last night, you go around bashing people who are outraged with the SSA!
>
> Frank, do you have half a BRAIN?!
>
> You attack people who disagree with you such as 5BG even when he
> offered a reasoned argument for his point of view.
>
> If you can't take the heat, Frank, get out of the kitchen.
>
> Signed,
> You_hurt_my_feelins
>
>
> Frank Reid wrote:
> > Pete,
> >
> > I sorry I did not get your last name. Are you another like 5BG who is
> > too gutless to sign your posts? >
> > Funny you shoud mention responsibility and accountability and yet you
> > will not even take responsibility for your own post. You hide behind
> > Pete... Surely your last name is not "...". That would really be a
> > stupid last name, huh?
> >
> > Warmest Regards Coward,
> >
> > Frank Reid
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> > > Frank:
> > > "Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"
> > >
> > > No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
> > > class or character.
> > >
> > > It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
> > > train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
> > > ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
> > > transpired.
> > >
> > > The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
> > > "We have to rearrange the deck chairs".
> > >
> > > I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
> > > penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
> > > The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.
> > >
> > > But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
> > > days.
> > >
> > >
> > > Frank Reid wrote:
> > > > Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> > > > and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> > > > been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> > > > the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> > > > standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> > > > are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> > > > Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
> > > >
> > > > Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
> > > >
> > > > Warmest Regards,
> > > >
> > > > Frank Reid

[Frank Reid]

5-BG wrote:

>
> A faceless member (5bg)


Or said another way (and a more accurate way) a charter member of the
CGCC (Chicken**** Gutless Cowards Club). 5BG is hereby appointed to be
the ED and the Chair (will not use the word man as it certainly does
not apply to 5BG) of the CGCC Pete dot dot dot has volunteered to be
the CFO. No doubt the new club will have no meetings as the members
would have to show their faces. Rather it will be an internet club
where each can bitch and whine without identifying themselves to each
other. Anyone want to be members of the club? All you have to do is
be too chicken**** and gutless to sign your posts. You instantly
become a member. Step up and join the CGCC. Pete dot dot dot is
waiting to collect the dues.

Warmest Regards.

Frank Reid

[Papa3]

5-BG wrote:
.. I am not a contest pilot. I have not been active in any ssa
governance. I am a simple member and have been to many years. one of
the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by the high profile "big
names" who ran this organization for their personal aggrandizement and
ultimately into the ground.

Dear 5-BG,

It's a shame that you discredit your good ideas with the above sorts of
crap. As a person who has, over the last 20 odd years, spent countless
hours on boards of various non-profit organizations for no pay and zero
aggrandizement, I couldn't blame every one of our directors for saying
"f*** this crap" and resigning en mass. With people like you to (not)
pick up the ball, where would that leave us?

Let me remind you of what our "big name" directors are getting out of
this mess:

- The right to spend approximately $2,000 out of their own pockets to
fly to various garden spots around the country for board meetings 3 or
4 times per year.
- The right to give up weekends with family, loved ones, fellow glider
pilots
- The right to spend countless hours not working on their business
interests or leisure time interests while they work on your behalf.

None of the above excuses the board as a whole or any individual on
that board for the current mess. However, at least in my book, it buys
them the right to my continued support and forebearance until all of
the facts are known and proposals for the future are presented.

So, how 'bout it 5-BG? Since you have all the answers, and by your
reckoning the time is right, can we count on seeing your name on the
next BOD ballot? I'll be glad to nominate you.

Regards,
Erik Mann

[Shawn[_2_]]

wrote:
> This enduring topic on the recent problems with the SSA has reminded me
> of the short but insightful book "The Dog Poop Initiative" by Kirk
> Weisler. In the book, Mr. Weisler describes different types of people:
>
> Poopers - those that leave behind messes for others to deal with.
> Pointers - those that spend all their time calling attention to the
> mess but do nothing to clean it up.
> Scoopers - those that just pitch in and get the mess cleaned up.
>
> While the anonymous 5-BG could still prove me wrong, his/her posts have
> given me cause to categorize 5-BG as a Pointer. Because of this, I am
> one one those that just ignore the posts based on author alone. Too
> bad, because that is probably the opposite of what 5-BG wants.

Maybe he's Lennie!
But that accusation is that fate of every saa troll.


Shawn

[Brian Glick]

Lennie was not even this bad!!!!

Brian

"Shawn" > wrote in message
. ..
> wrote:
>> This enduring topic on the recent problems with the SSA has reminded me
>> of the short but insightful book "The Dog Poop Initiative" by Kirk
>> Weisler. In the book, Mr. Weisler describes different types of people:
>>
>> Poopers - those that leave behind messes for others to deal with.
>> Pointers - those that spend all their time calling attention to the
>> mess but do nothing to clean it up.
>> Scoopers - those that just pitch in and get the mess cleaned up.
>>
>> While the anonymous 5-BG could still prove me wrong, his/her posts have
>> given me cause to categorize 5-BG as a Pointer. Because of this, I am
>> one one those that just ignore the posts based on author alone. Too
>> bad, because that is probably the opposite of what 5-BG wants.
>
> Maybe he's Lennie!
> But that accusation is that fate of every saa troll.
>
>
> Shawn

[Pete Reinhart]

5-BG
You seem to be familiar with the concept of "slapp suit".
It causes me to wonder, are you or have you ever been the slappER or the slappEE?
Which could it be?
Or is it merely in your dreams?
Cheers! Pete :=)
PS. This is in no way meant to be a personal attack, I'd just like to know where you got the idea. P.
"5-BG" <5-bghatesspam @ fake.com> wrote in message ...
peter you wrote" reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".
Another reaction, mainly by life members and insiders who presided over this mess is to attack people who raise valid points, not on the substance of their message but on the trivial issue of whether or not they choose to identify themselves in a public forum. I choose not to place my name on posts for what I consider to be personal and very valid reasons. My signature should have very little to do with the points I raise. I am a nobody in the soaring community. While some may recognize my name from outside the soaring community arena, my identity has no import within the soaring community. I am not a contest pilot. I have not been active in any ssa governance. I am a simple member and have been to many years. one of the faceless many who feel abused and ignored by the high profile "big names" who ran this organization for their personal aggrandizement and ultimately into the ground.
The soaring society inside establishment has rallied to the defense of the status quo and seeks to deflect the discussion to that of who is posting what.
The issues are real. The train wreck is getting worse. The hole is getting deeper. The general membership is, imho, getting more disenfranchised by the day. Accountability is being shifted. responsibility diffused. Committees are being formed to study the problem.
information is being withheld and then only brought out a bit at a time. Case in point.. I just read the recently posted excom minutes which reveal that a donation of 84,000 was diverted and most of it never made it to fidelity. This info came to light just a week or so after the excom and treasurer gave assurances that all foundation money was accounted for. 84 grand is a sizeable chunk. how could they miss this???
when you cannot dispute the message with logic and facts, attack the messenger on a personal level.
I read in the bylaws "
ARTICLE VI - SUSPENSION, EXPULSION, ETC.

SECTION 1 - Any member may be dropped from the roll of membership for nonpayment of dues; and any member whose activities are deemed hostile to the objectives or injurious to the purpose of the Society, or who violates its bylaws or established rules, may be removed from office, suspended or expelled from the Society by vote of the Board of Directors. "

I guess that means me if the board decides that it doesn't like criticism.. I am openly hostile to the objectives of the current board which I perceive to be self preservation and limiting personal responsibility. .

BUT WHO THROWS OUT THE BOARD if it knowingly and willfully violates the bylaws???

SECTION 2 - Annually, after the close of the fiscal year, the books and accounts shall be audited by an independent accounting firm and the findings and opinions of the firm published and distributed to the Directors, and to others requesting same.



THE BOARD CLEARLY VIOLATED THE BYLAWS.. no ands ifs or buts.. They are clearly in conflict of interest as section one specifies that the board has the power to throw out anyone who violates the bylaws.. There were no provisions for members to institute a recall process..

so the ssa is stuck with a board that is making decisions for the future that has the power to expel any with a hostile attitude but that also has the sole power to judge itself. The LEGITIMACY of this board and excom is seriously in question.



THIS SUCKS..

So I suggest to those of you who are life members, big names, directors, and insiders, that you consider the points raised by the faceless masses that you have for so long considered a necessary evil to be tolerated because they pay dues to support your self aggrandizing efforts and pet projects. . I challenge you right now to address my conclusion that the current board should be tossed out on the basis of the bylaws.

By the way, I also read in recent minutes that the excom is going to change the bylaws to eliminate the requirement for an annual audit.. NOW THIS MAKES A WHOLE LOT OF SENSE given recent events.. but then, they are vested with the power ( sole) to change bylaws. too bad they cannot make change retroactive..

this trainwreck is getting worse by the day. a measure of just how much worse is the degree to which insiders try to deflect meaningful questions, opinions and analysis by attacking a nobody on a personal basis because he exercises his right not to divulge his name in a public forum.



Perhaps you should google on SLAPP SUIT for a reasonable explanation of the desire to remain faceless.

so to all you big names, directors,life members and other insiders who don't want to deal with the train wreck, SCREW YOU VERY MUCH

A faceless member (5bg)





A




> wrote in message oups.com...
Frank:
"Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!"

No one can accuse the soaring community of not having any manners,
class or character.

It's amazing to watch this SSA fiasco take place. It's the classic
train wreck. What confuses me is why ANY SSA member would have an
ounce of faith in the management or board of the SSA after what has
transpired.

The membership has been abused and robbed and the reaction by many is,
"We have to rearrange the deck chairs".

I hope that the IRS and the State of New Mexico levies the MAXIMUM
penalty against the SSA since this is what the organization deserves.
The SSA broke the rules and should suffer the consequences.

But that's the rub, I guess responsibility is not in fashion these
days.


Frank Reid wrote:
> Everyone and everything in the SSA should, according to you, be open
> and transparent, yet you hide behind your nickname of 5-BG. You have
> been asked several times to speak up and tell us who you are. That is
> the one area of conversation that you avoid. Seems to be a double
> standard here, don't you think? Are you scared to let us know who you
> are? Are you ashamed of who you are? What the hell is with you?
> Identify yourself or shut the F#*# up!!
>
> Come on chicken speak up or shut up!
>
> Warmest Regards,
>
> Frank Reid

[KM]

Frank Reid wrote:
> Or said another way (and a more accurate way) a charter member of the
> CGCC (Chicken**** Gutless Cowards Club). 5BG is hereby appointed to be
> the ED and the Chair (will not use the word man as it certainly does
> not apply to 5BG) of the CGCC Pete dot dot dot has volunteered to be
> the CFO. No doubt the new club will have no meetings as the members
> would have to show their faces. Rather it will be an internet club
> where each can bitch and whine without identifying themselves to each
> other. Anyone want to be members of the club? All you have to do is
> be too chicken**** and gutless to sign your posts. You instantly
> become a member. Step up and join the CGCC. Pete dot dot dot is
> waiting to collect the dues.

Real mature Frank.I am pretty new to RAS and already I have noticed
there are two kinds of people who post here.Those who have something
constructive to ad (The vast majority), and people like you who just
want to sling mud.Judging by your posts on other threads, you like very
much to engage in personal attacks without anything constructive to
ad.How about it Frank, no personal attacks here, lets see you debate
5BG's post on an adult level.
>
> Warmest Regards.
>
> Frank Reid

Is this the F.R. who runs Bermuda Soaring?Holly cow dude, think of how
mature this looks to your customers.And another thing, can we watch the
language?I have a picture of my kids here on my computer desk!

Warmest Regards,
K Urban

[Frank Reid]

5-BG wrote:
> There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
> 1. He may be a sitting judge.
> 2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
> 3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
> 4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
> 5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
> 6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
> 7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
> 8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.


THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS

10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY

9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING

8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
CONGRESSMAN.

7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS

6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING

5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON

4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT

3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
THE US

2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
FOR HIMSELF

AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:

1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
SIGN HIS POSTS!!

Warmest Regards to All,

Frank Reid

[[email protected]]

Ok, having lurked, read, or mulled over all that is being written I do
need to say this last post is what is bad about RAS and this internet
stuff. Would you in a public meeting, use this kind of language to
persuade others? I know almost no one personally on this group, yet I
know who I would at least listen to if I met them. This is language I
hear at school and have to correct all the time...since most kids have
very limited verbal skills when making emotional comments. A little
skunk one said if ya can't say nothin nice, then don't say nothin at
all. Voice your concerns, leave the poor language to the people that
can think of no other way to express themselves.

Larry Johnson SSA member
Frank Reid wrote:
> 5-BG wrote:
> > There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
> > 1. He may be a sitting judge.
> > 2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
> > 3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
> > 4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
> > 5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
> > 6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
> > 7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
> > 8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.
>
>
> THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS
>
> 10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY
>
> 9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
> WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING
>
> 8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
> CONGRESSMAN.
>
> 7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS
>
> 6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
> TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
> OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING
>
> 5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON
>
> 4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT
>
> 3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
> THE US
>
> 2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
> FOR HIMSELF
>
> AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:
>
> 1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
> IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
> COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
> SIGN HIS POSTS!!
>
> Warmest Regards to All,
>
> Frank Reid

[Brad]

Imagine what it might be like thermaling with some of these folks.
Could you count on them to team fly on a long cross country? Bet most
of them have sailplanes that cost close to what my house costs. The
hang glider guys might be on to something; the more expensive your
flying toy is, the bigger the ego is.

BTW...........the only reason I belong to the SSA is because my club
requires it for insurance purposes.

Brad
199AK


wrote:
> Ok, having lurked, read, or mulled over all that is being written I do
> need to say this last post is what is bad about RAS and this internet
> stuff. Would you in a public meeting, use this kind of language to
> persuade others? I know almost no one personally on this group, yet I
> know who I would at least listen to if I met them. This is language I
> hear at school and have to correct all the time...since most kids have
> very limited verbal skills when making emotional comments. A little
> skunk one said if ya can't say nothin nice, then don't say nothin at
> all. Voice your concerns, leave the poor language to the people that
> can think of no other way to express themselves.
>
> Larry Johnson SSA member
> Frank Reid wrote:
> > 5-BG wrote:
> > > There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
> > > 1. He may be a sitting judge.
> > > 2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
> > > 3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
> > > 4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
> > > 5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
> > > 6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
> > > 7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
> > > 8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.
> >
> >
> > THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS
> >
> > 10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY
> >
> > 9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
> > WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING
> >
> > 8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
> > CONGRESSMAN.
> >
> > 7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS
> >
> > 6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
> > TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
> > OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING
> >
> > 5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON
> >
> > 4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT
> >
> > 3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
> > THE US
> >
> > 2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
> > FOR HIMSELF
> >
> > AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:
> >
> > 1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
> > IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
> > COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
> > SIGN HIS POSTS!!
> >
> > Warmest Regards to All,
> >
> > Frank Reid

[bumper]

Brad,

I too am appalled by some of the personal attacks and trash talk on ras. I
usually don't respond and wouldn't go out of my way to associate with those
who engage in such behavior.

However, I don't think it fair to characterize people with expensive toys as
all having big egos. I have a number wealthy friends in soaring. Without
exception they are as nice a people as one could hope to meet. Sure, I know
of a few "egos" out there too, but they truly are the exception.

It is fair to say that most of the expensive glider owners are or where
successful in their careers and have above average intelligence . . . but
that's probably also true of glider owners, as a whole. Some tend towards
being assertive, self confident, maybe even a bit eccentric (I've been
accused of that). Altogether an interesting group and a pleasure to
associate with.

bumper
ASH26E
Minden, NV

"Brad" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Imagine what it might be like thermaling with some of these folks.
> Could you count on them to team fly on a long cross country? Bet most
> of them have sailplanes that cost close to what my house costs. The
> hang glider guys might be on to something; the more expensive your
> flying toy is, the bigger the ego is.
>
> BTW...........the only reason I belong to the SSA is because my club
> requires it for insurance purposes.
>
> Brad
> 199AK
>
>
> wrote:
>> Ok, having lurked, read, or mulled over all that is being written I do
>> need to say this last post is what is bad about RAS and this internet
>> stuff. Would you in a public meeting, use this kind of language to
>> persuade others? I know almost no one personally on this group, yet I
>> know who I would at least listen to if I met them. This is language I
>> hear at school and have to correct all the time...since most kids have
>> very limited verbal skills when making emotional comments. A little
>> skunk one said if ya can't say nothin nice, then don't say nothin at
>> all. Voice your concerns, leave the poor language to the people that
>> can think of no other way to express themselves.
>>
>> Larry Johnson SSA member
>> Frank Reid wrote:
>> > 5-BG wrote:
>> > > There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want
>> > > to sign his name.
>> > > 1. He may be a sitting judge.
>> > > 2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in
>> > > soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his
>> > > political opponents.
>> > > 3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his
>> > > position, may have some distant possible conflict should his
>> > > principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
>> > > 4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people
>> > > or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the
>> > > membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
>> > > 5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who
>> > > does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
>> > > 6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to
>> > > risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
>> > > 7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the
>> > > flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
>> > > 8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way
>> > > things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and
>> > > "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.
>> >
>> >
>> > THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS
>> >
>> > 10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY
>> >
>> > 9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
>> > WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING
>> >
>> > 8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
>> > CONGRESSMAN.
>> >
>> > 7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS
>> >
>> > 6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
>> > TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
>> > OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING
>> >
>> > 5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON
>> >
>> > 4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT
>> >
>> > 3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
>> > THE US
>> >
>> > 2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
>> > FOR HIMSELF
>> >
>> > AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:
>> >
>> > 1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
>> > IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
>> > COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
>> > SIGN HIS POSTS!!
>> >
>> > Warmest Regards to All,
>> >
>> > Frank Reid
>

[Mike I Green]

Hi Brad,
I have flown thermals with several Directors, and wouldn't hesitate
flying with them again. I know one Director who can't afford a ship
right now. The ones I know personally are nice people who are working
their behind off to save our organization.

Have you read the committee notes? What have you contributed to soaring?

Mike Green

Brad wrote:
> Imagine what it might be like thermaling with some of these folks.
> Could you count on them to team fly on a long cross country? Bet most
> of them have sailplanes that cost close to what my house costs. The
> hang glider guys might be on to something; the more expensive your
> flying toy is, the bigger the ego is.
>
> BTW...........the only reason I belong to the SSA is because my club
> requires it for insurance purposes.
>
> Brad
> 199AK
>
>
> wrote:
>
>>Ok, having lurked, read, or mulled over all that is being written I do
>>need to say this last post is what is bad about RAS and this internet
>>stuff. Would you in a public meeting, use this kind of language to
>>persuade others? I know almost no one personally on this group, yet I
>>know who I would at least listen to if I met them. This is language I
>>hear at school and have to correct all the time...since most kids have
>>very limited verbal skills when making emotional comments. A little
>>skunk one said if ya can't say nothin nice, then don't say nothin at
>>all. Voice your concerns, leave the poor language to the people that
>>can think of no other way to express themselves.
>>
>>Larry Johnson SSA member
>>Frank Reid wrote:
>>
>>>5-BG wrote:
>>>
>>>> There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
>>>>1. He may be a sitting judge.
>>>>2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
>>>>3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
>>>>4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
>>>>5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
>>>>6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
>>>>7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
>>>>8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.
>>>
>>>
>>>THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS
>>>
>>>10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY
>>>
>>> 9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
>>>WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING
>>>
>>> 8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
>>>CONGRESSMAN.
>>>
>>> 7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS
>>>
>>> 6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
>>>TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
>>> OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING
>>>
>>> 5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON
>>>
>>> 4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT
>>>
>>> 3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
>>>THE US
>>>
>>> 2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
>>>FOR HIMSELF
>>>
>>> AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:
>>>
>>> 1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
>>>IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
>>> COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
>>>SIGN HIS POSTS!!
>>>
>>> Warmest Regards to All,
>>>
>>>Frank Reid
>
>

[KM]

Mike I Green wrote:
> Hi Brad,
> I have flown thermals with several Directors, and wouldn't hesitate
> flying with them again. I know one Director who can't afford a ship
> right now. The ones I know personally are nice people who are working
> their behind off to save our organization.

Mike, If I may join in here,I dont doubt that the directors you know
are great people.I am impressed by by my R.D.(Reigon 9).But, it only
takes the poor conduct of one individual like Frank Reid to cast a
shadow on the whole bunch.Look back at his post.He makes light of child
molestation, he is racist, and he takes unwaranted pot shots at SSA
directors.I personally wouldnt want to be in the same airspace with the
guy.

> Have you read the committee notes? What have you contributed to soaring?

Mike, in my humble opinion, Brad's post was not so much about
contributing as it was taking away.Frank Reid's conduct makes all of us
look bad and takes away from the sport.


>
> Mike Green

K. Urban

[Bruce Greef]

Brad wrote:
> Imagine what it might be like thermaling with some of these folks.
> Could you count on them to team fly on a long cross country? Bet most
> of them have sailplanes that cost close to what my house costs. The
> hang glider guys might be on to something; the more expensive your
> flying toy is, the bigger the ego is.
>
> BTW...........the only reason I belong to the SSA is because my club
> requires it for insurance purposes.
>
> Brad
> 199AK
>
Might be true in your community. My experience is contrary - some of the nicest,
hardest working and humblest glider pilots I know are also very successful in
business. Like with all things you get a range of personalities. We have a few
low paid artisans in our club, none of whom has much money, but one has his
backside surgically attached to a chair while another is always helping out -
driving the winch, instructing or maintaining things. Ditto we have some
directors of listed companies. One is to be found at all hours of the night,
using his precious limited free time fixing club members gliders, and making
ground handling kit. Another is almost never there, and when he is it's all
about getting his glider in front of the launch queue and telling the rest how
to do things. The rest fit in between.

People are what they are. Some have money, some don't. The ones who fly gliders
are generally better than average.

Think about it - you have to be something of an optimist to get into something
with no engine and really expect to fly 300km cross country.
Over sized egos tend to humbling experiences - in those who actually fly - those
who can't take it leave soaring. It's one of the nicer parts of the sport.

Some determined pillocks will always remain - fortunately most gliders are
single seaters...

[[email protected]]

Mike Green:

"What have you contributed to soaring?"

I've contributed $64, the cost of a yearly membership to the SSA. AOPA
costs $39, EAA costs $40 and the fine aviation magazine (and membership
to the Smithsonian Institution) Air and Space cost $24.

What is my point? All of these organizations exist to serve their
members. A prevailing attitude here seems to be that the members of
SSA exist to serve the SSA. This is a recipe for disaster and a very
poor business plan.

Did it ever occur to you that some people in the soaring community
might not have the time to volunteer to the SSA or to soaring outside
of their own personal involvement? People have families and other
responsibilities. Did it occur to you that some people may already be
volunteering their precious time to other more worthy causes, charities
or activities. Things like helping the elderly, poor, the sick, or
helping out with other civic, education or conservation organizations?

In my own case I work for a not for profit teaching and research
hospital where I do cancer research. I feel that I'm making an
important contribution to society and my community during my day job.
On the weekends I want a leisure activity and I don't feel that I'm
obligated to "give anything back" to soaring except for flying safe and
being responsible.

Since the SSA and many of the members here obviously feel that the
members exist to serve SSA and not the other way around, it should not
be surprising that the SSA is having its current problems.

I have not flown a glider in years and have only kept up my membership
with the intent that I might one day become active again. I never did
find the soaring community to be very friendly especially if you
weren't a competition pilot and just flew around the flagpole like I
used to do. Anyone who denies that there is a caste system in soaring
is just fooling themselves.

I don't live anywhere near Bermuda Soaring and Frank Reid, but if I did
I would never go fly there or recommend the operation to any friend.
The membership of the SSA has been stagnant and my own observations is
that there is less and less activity at the fields where I used to fly.


So my contribution to soaring would be that it better wake up--the SSA
should take the view that it exists to serve its members and to provide
services and products that are worth $64.

I won't be renewing my SSA membership. The soaring community and
environment are just too unpleasant and there are much better ways for
me to spend my precious weekends.

Lucky Lindy



Mike I Green wrote:
> Hi Brad,
> I have flown thermals with several Directors, and wouldn't hesitate
> flying with them again. I know one Director who can't afford a ship
> right now. The ones I know personally are nice people who are working
> their behind off to save our organization.
>
> Have you read the committee notes? What have you contributed to soaring?
>
> Mike Green
>
> Brad wrote:
> > Imagine what it might be like thermaling with some of these folks.
> > Could you count on them to team fly on a long cross country? Bet most
> > of them have sailplanes that cost close to what my house costs. The
> > hang glider guys might be on to something; the more expensive your
> > flying toy is, the bigger the ego is.
> >
> > BTW...........the only reason I belong to the SSA is because my club
> > requires it for insurance purposes.
> >
> > Brad
> > 199AK
> >
> >
> > wrote:
> >
> >>Ok, having lurked, read, or mulled over all that is being written I do
> >>need to say this last post is what is bad about RAS and this internet
> >>stuff. Would you in a public meeting, use this kind of language to
> >>persuade others? I know almost no one personally on this group, yet I
> >>know who I would at least listen to if I met them. This is language I
> >>hear at school and have to correct all the time...since most kids have
> >>very limited verbal skills when making emotional comments. A little
> >>skunk one said if ya can't say nothin nice, then don't say nothin at
> >>all. Voice your concerns, leave the poor language to the people that
> >>can think of no other way to express themselves.
> >>
> >>Larry Johnson SSA member
> >>Frank Reid wrote:
> >>
> >>>5-BG wrote:
> >>>
> >>>> There are MANY reasons that a poster to this board might nor want to sign his name.
> >>>>1. He may be a sitting judge.
> >>>>2. he may be a local or national politician with an interest in soaring who does not want this issue to be introduced by his political opponents.
> >>>>3. He may be a political staffer or appointee who , by way of his position, may have some distant possible conflict should his principal be called upon to enact legislation revelant to the SSA.
> >>>>4. He may be an ssa member who works for the IRS, the NM tax people or the NM ag.. who wants to send an unofficial message to the membership of the ssa that the **** is about to hit the fan.
> >>>>5. he may be a pilot who is seeking a berth on the national team who does not want to risk offending the powers that be.
> >>>>6. He may have a commercial interest in soaring and does not want to risk his business base, but has personal feelings.
> >>>>7. He may be a director of the ssa who is seeking to go against the flow and to affect change, but is running into the establishment.
> >>>>8. he may just be a member who is genuinely ****ed off at the way things have gone and who has reached the point of speaking out and "tipping at windmills" a la Don Quixote.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>>THE TEN TOP REASONS WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS NAME TO HIS POSTS
> >>>
> >>>10. HE IS REALLY JUDGE JUDY
> >>>
> >>> 9. HE IS A US REPRESENTATIVE, RECENTLY IN THE NEWS, AND WOULD LIKE TO
> >>>WORK WITH THE YOUTH IN SOARING
> >>>
> >>> 8. HE IS REALLY A PAGE WHO WORKED FOR THE ABOVE REFERRED TO
> >>>CONGRESSMAN.
> >>>
> >>> 7. HE IS DOUG JACOBS
> >>>
> >>> 6. HE OWNS THREE MAJOR SORING OPERATIONS IN THE US AND DOES NOT WANT
> >>>TO JEOPARDIZE THE MILLIONS
> >>> OF DOLLARS HE IS MAKING
> >>>
> >>> 5. HE IS REALLY A SHE - NAMELY DIANNE BLACK-NIXON
> >>>
> >>> 4. HE IS DENNIS WRIGHT
> >>>
> >>> 3. HE IS A RAG HEAD FROM THE MIDDLE EAST TRYING TO CAUSE TROUBLE IN
> >>>THE US
> >>>
> >>> 2. HE IS CHAIRMAN OF THE SSA FOUNDATION AND WANTS TO KEEP THAT MONEY
> >>>FOR HIMSELF
> >>>
> >>> AND THE NUMBER ONE REASON WHY 5BG WILL NOT SIGN HIS POSTS IS:
> >>>
> >>> 1. HE IS JUST AN OBNOXIOUS, LOUD MOUTHED MEMBER OFTHE SSA WHO REALLY
> >>>IS A CHICKEN**** GUTLESS
> >>> COWARD WHO DOES NOT HAVE THE CONVICTION NOR COURAGE NOR BALLS TO
> >>>SIGN HIS POSTS!!
> >>>
> >>> Warmest Regards to All,
> >>>
> >>>Frank Reid
> >
> >

[Vaughn Simon]

> wrote in message
ups.com...
> Mike Green:
>
> I don't live anywhere near Bermuda Soaring and Frank Reid, but if I did
> I would never go fly there

Then that would be your loss.

Frank's recent intemperate posts aside, Bermuda Soaring is one of the best
commercial soaring operations in the United States. Soaring needs commercial
operators like Frank and other entrepreneurs if it is going to survive. Every
one of them is putting their life and their future on the line for our sport,
which is hardly a growth market.

I have worked at a commercial soaring operation long enough to know the
challenges involved, and I have been to Business school, so I know a shaky
business plan when I see one. I know too much to ever go into the soaring
business, so I try to be nice to those optimistic people who do.

Vaughn

[KM]

Vaughn Simon wrote:
> Then that would be your loss.

Vaughn,
I find this imposible to imagine! I dont know what passes for
acceptable in your neck of the woods, but where I am from (out in So.
Cal.) we have a pretty diverse group of pilots, and any business owner
who goes about publicly making fun of molestation victims and using
racical slurs would find himself with a rapidly diminishing customer
base.
>
> Bermuda Soaring is one of the best
> commercial soaring operations in the United States. Soaring needs commercial
> operators like Frank and other entrepreneurs if it is going to survive.

Frank's conduct is doing the sport no favors.I dont know which is
worse, F.R.'s conduct, or the guys like you and Brian G. who are
cheering him on.If a prominent business owner and former SSA director
goes off like this, how do you think it looks to the casual R.A.S.
lurker?We ALL should be denouncing his behavior, not encouraging it.

> Each one of them is putting their life and their future on the line for our sport,
> which is hardly a growth market.

Could the fact that soaring is hardly a growth market be due in part to
the caste system L.L. made mention of?

> I have worked at a commercial soaring operation long enough to know the
> challenges involved, and I have been to Business school, so I know a shaky
> business plan when I see one. I know too much to ever go into the soaring
> business, so I try to be nice to those optimistic people who do.

Vaughn, You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.If
you had to endure Frank's "Gutless Chicken****" speech in person, I
hardly think you would be nice to him.

> Vaughn

K. Urban

[Willie]

:wrote

I never did find the soaring community
to be very friendly especially if you weren't
a competition pilot and just flew around the
flagpole like I used to do.

The soaring community and
environment are just too unpleasant and
there are much better ways for
me to spend my precious weekends.

Lucky Lindy
____________________________

Wow, I just had a Lennie flashback.

That isn't you, is it Lennie?

I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll
say "sorry" if you had an unpleasant
experience at a contest or in a club.

I've met many more nice/friendly people
involved in soaring than in many other
pursuits I've tried. Sure, there are a few
arrogant SOB's in every aspect of life
but for the most part glider pilots are a
decent group.

I hope you find a way to give the sport
another chance in the future.

Willie Geiselmann

[bumper]

Willie,

I was thinking the same (g).

You and I must be dealing with the same group. All the "ramp folks" I've met
at Minden, NV are right nice people!

--
bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
"Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
Quiet Vent kits and MKII "high tech" yaw strings

"Willie" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> :wrote
>
> I never did find the soaring community
> to be very friendly especially if you weren't
> a competition pilot and just flew around the
> flagpole like I used to do.
>
> The soaring community and
> environment are just too unpleasant and
> there are much better ways for
> me to spend my precious weekends.
>
> Lucky Lindy
> ____________________________
>
> Wow, I just had a Lennie flashback.
>
> That isn't you, is it Lennie?
>
> I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll
> say "sorry" if you had an unpleasant
> experience at a contest or in a club.
>
> I've met many more nice/friendly people
> involved in soaring than in many other
> pursuits I've tried. Sure, there are a few
> arrogant SOB's in every aspect of life
> but for the most part glider pilots are a
> decent group.
>
> I hope you find a way to give the sport
> another chance in the future.
>
> Willie Geiselmann
>

[[email protected]]

Willie:

"Wow, I just had a Lennie flashback.


That isn't you, is it Lennie?"

Who is "Lennie" because I'm not "Lennie". I assume that you are
taking a swipe at me. I would appreciate it if you could refrain from
personal attacks. You are only validating my point.

Did it ever occur to any of you that the soaring community is
responsible for the declining membership in the SSA and the declining
numbers of soaring pilots?

Lucky Lindy

Willie wrote:
> :wrote
>
> I never did find the soaring community
> to be very friendly especially if you weren't
> a competition pilot and just flew around the
> flagpole like I used to do.
>
> The soaring community and
> environment are just too unpleasant and
> there are much better ways for
> me to spend my precious weekends.
>
> Lucky Lindy
> ____________________________
>
> Wow, I just had a Lennie flashback.
>
> That isn't you, is it Lennie?
>
> I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll
> say "sorry" if you had an unpleasant
> experience at a contest or in a club.
>
> I've met many more nice/friendly people
> involved in soaring than in many other
> pursuits I've tried. Sure, there are a few
> arrogant SOB's in every aspect of life
> but for the most part glider pilots are a
> decent group.
>
> I hope you find a way to give the sport
> another chance in the future.
>
> Willie Geiselmann

[Ray Lovinggood]

Lone Beagle wrote:
Did it ever occur to any of you that the soaring community
is
responsible for the declining membership in the SSA
and the declining numbers of soaring pilots?

My anwser: No. And what would be the basis for such
an argument?

Heck, it's the 'soaring community' that is bringing
in more to the sport. The only way people around here
find out about soaring is through word of mouth, webpage
searches, and the rare newspaper article. All of the
above are directly attributed to members of our 'soaring
community.' We talk to our non-flying friends, we
talk to our coworkers, and heck, we might even talk
to strangers who ask 'what's that in the trailer.'
We create our own webpages. And, we might even contact
our local newspaper and they come out, take a flight,
and write a story.

Here's one article:
http://www.mydailyrecord.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=81012&Sec
tionID=1&SubSectionID=&S=1

Here's another:

http://www.mydailyrecord.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=81011&Sec
tionID=1&SubSectionID=&S=1


Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Willie]

Lucky Lindy,

First off, It was not a personal swipe. It was an
inside joke to the many people who have been
on this message board for over 5 years.

I was sincere in my blanket apology to you
about whomever offended you. It takes a thick
skin to be around guys who can afford very
expensive toys.

Try a different club, or buy a motorglider and
fly by yourself.

Go to the main groups page on RAS and in the
top right corner of your browser there should be
a search engine for this group. Type "Lennie"
no quotes and you will get an idea of my reference.

I am not calling you Lennie, I would never be that
cruel or mean. I was making a reference to the
tone of your post.

Lennie also wanted to quit Soaring, but instead of
quietly disappearing, he chose to stay on RAS and
say pretty much what your post said.
_________________________________________

wrote:

1.) I never did find the soaring community
to be very friendly...

2.) The soaring community and
environment are just too unpleasant...

3.)the soaring community is
responsible for the declining membership...
________________________________________

Now it seems like you are the one taking a swipe
at the "soaring community"

Exactly what type of a response did you think
you were going to get to that post?

Look, I'm really not going to get into a war
of words with you. You want to quit? go ahead.
You don't have to insult all of us on the way out
the door.

I won't respond anymore, so you can have the
last word, and if it is something negative, then
hopefully it will be your last post here.

Good luck in the future.

I do hope you change your perception / mind
about soaring and give it another try sometime
in the future.

Willie Geiselmann

[Brad]

Hey Ray,

Been hearing the news about that chemical fire down your way. Hope you
and yours are all ok!

Brad


Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> Lone Beagle wrote:
> Did it ever occur to any of you that the soaring community
> is
> responsible for the declining membership in the SSA
> and the declining numbers of soaring pilots?
>
> My anwser: No. And what would be the basis for such
> an argument?
>
> Heck, it's the 'soaring community' that is bringing
> in more to the sport. The only way people around here
> find out about soaring is through word of mouth, webpage
> searches, and the rare newspaper article. All of the
> above are directly attributed to members of our 'soaring
> community.' We talk to our non-flying friends, we
> talk to our coworkers, and heck, we might even talk
> to strangers who ask 'what's that in the trailer.'
> We create our own webpages. And, we might even contact
> our local newspaper and they come out, take a flight,
> and write a story.
>
> Here's one article:
> http://www.mydailyrecord.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=81012&Sec
> tionID=1&SubSectionID=&S=1
>
> Here's another:
>
> http://www.mydailyrecord.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=81011&Sec
> tionID=1&SubSectionID=&S=1
>
>
> Ray Lovinggood
> Carrboro, North Carolina, USA

[Brian Glick]

KM

I think you better re-read my posts. I have been urging calm and civility,
and the means Frank Reid uses on her are not good. I may have siad I agreed
with some of his points, but not how he is going about it!!!

Brian G.
"KM" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Vaughn Simon wrote:
>> Then that would be your loss.
>
> Vaughn,
> I find this imposible to imagine! I dont know what passes for
> acceptable in your neck of the woods, but where I am from (out in So.
> Cal.) we have a pretty diverse group of pilots, and any business owner
> who goes about publicly making fun of molestation victims and using
> racical slurs would find himself with a rapidly diminishing customer
> base.
>>
>> Bermuda Soaring is one of the best
>> commercial soaring operations in the United States. Soaring needs
>> commercial
>> operators like Frank and other entrepreneurs if it is going to survive.
>
> Frank's conduct is doing the sport no favors.I dont know which is
> worse, F.R.'s conduct, or the guys like you and Brian G. who are
> cheering him on.If a prominent business owner and former SSA director
> goes off like this, how do you think it looks to the casual R.A.S.
> lurker?We ALL should be denouncing his behavior, not encouraging it.
>
>> Each one of them is putting their life and their future on the line for
>> our sport,
>> which is hardly a growth market.
>
> Could the fact that soaring is hardly a growth market be due in part to
> the caste system L.L. made mention of?
>
>> I have worked at a commercial soaring operation long enough to know
>> the
>> challenges involved, and I have been to Business school, so I know a
>> shaky
>> business plan when I see one. I know too much to ever go into the
>> soaring
>> business, so I try to be nice to those optimistic people who do.
>
> Vaughn, You and I are going to have to agree to disagree on this one.If
> you had to endure Frank's "Gutless Chicken****" speech in person, I
> hardly think you would be nice to him.
>
>> Vaughn
>
> K. Urban
>

[KM]

Brian Glick wrote:
> KM
>
> I think you better re-read my posts. I have been urging calm and civility,
> and the means Frank Reid uses on her are not good. I may have siad I agreed
> with some of his points, but not how he is going about it!!!

Brian, I did reread your post and here is a direct quote "I second what
Frank Reid said in just as strong of language".Kinda looks like you are
behind the guy and his conduct.Brian, I dont know what the standards
are in your part of the country, but it may come as a surprise to you
that this sport is not just limited to rich old white guys.I would
suggest that you distance yourself from racist ding dongs like Frank
Reid.

K Urban

[Brad]

Bumper,

I have had the same good experience as you, here in Washington, both at
Arlington and in Ephrata. Very friendly people and quite helpful.
And........most have reeeeaaaaaly nice sailplanes, some with engines in
them!

Brad

PS........a friend of mine has a brother that plays bass.........he
himself is a wicked guitar player, might that be you? same name and
same nickname!


bumper wrote:
> Willie,
>
> I was thinking the same (g).
>
> You and I must be dealing with the same group. All the "ramp folks" I've met
> at Minden, NV are right nice people!
>
> --
> bumper ZZ (reverse all after @)>
> "Dare to be different . . . circle in sink."
> Quiet Vent kits and MKII "high tech" yaw strings
>
> "Willie" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > :wrote
> >
> > I never did find the soaring community
> > to be very friendly especially if you weren't
> > a competition pilot and just flew around the
> > flagpole like I used to do.
> >
> > The soaring community and
> > environment are just too unpleasant and
> > there are much better ways for
> > me to spend my precious weekends.
> >
> > Lucky Lindy
> > ____________________________
> >
> > Wow, I just had a Lennie flashback.
> >
> > That isn't you, is it Lennie?
> >
> > I can't speak for anyone else, but I'll
> > say "sorry" if you had an unpleasant
> > experience at a contest or in a club.
> >
> > I've met many more nice/friendly people
> > involved in soaring than in many other
> > pursuits I've tried. Sure, there are a few
> > arrogant SOB's in every aspect of life
> > but for the most part glider pilots are a
> > decent group.
> >
> > I hope you find a way to give the sport
> > another chance in the future.
> >
> > Willie Geiselmann
> >

[[email protected]]

Wille:
"If it is something negative, then
hopefully it will be your last post here."

So unless I post something that agrees with you, then you would prefer
that I don't post anything else here?

Is that correct, Willie?

The purpose of message boards is to discuss and that means that boards
are not necessarily mutual admiration societies.

And your attempt to stifle any descension is also not very American or
in tune with our rights to free speech.

You also cherry picked partial sentences of my post out of context and
you completely missed the larger points that I was making.

Do you consider yourself an open minded and friendly person who can see
the point of views of others?

No, I didn't think so.

Lucky Lindy.

ps, I'll post here in the future it I so desire since I didn't see your
name as the owner of Goggle.

Willie wrote:
> Lucky Lindy,
>
> First off, It was not a personal swipe. It was an
> inside joke to the many people who have been
> on this message board for over 5 years.
>
> I was sincere in my blanket apology to you
> about whomever offended you. It takes a thick
> skin to be around guys who can afford very
> expensive toys.
>
> Try a different club, or buy a motorglider and
> fly by yourself.
>
> Go to the main groups page on RAS and in the
> top right corner of your browser there should be
> a search engine for this group. Type "Lennie"
> no quotes and you will get an idea of my reference.
>
> I am not calling you Lennie, I would never be that
> cruel or mean. I was making a reference to the
> tone of your post.
>
> Lennie also wanted to quit Soaring, but instead of
> quietly disappearing, he chose to stay on RAS and
> say pretty much what your post said.
> _________________________________________
>
> wrote:
>
> 1.) I never did find the soaring community
> to be very friendly...
>
> 2.) The soaring community and
> environment are just too unpleasant...
>
> 3.)the soaring community is
> responsible for the declining membership...
> ________________________________________
>
> Now it seems like you are the one taking a swipe
> at the "soaring community"
>
> Exactly what type of a response did you think
> you were going to get to that post?
>
> Look, I'm really not going to get into a war
> of words with you. You want to quit? go ahead.
> You don't have to insult all of us on the way out
> the door.
>
> I won't respond anymore, so you can have the
> last word, and if it is something negative, then
> hopefully it will be your last post here.
>
> Good luck in the future.
>
> I do hope you change your perception / mind
> about soaring and give it another try sometime
> in the future.
>
> Willie Geiselmann

[Brian Glick]

KM

That was my one transgression that you caught, and if you still read it all,
you will see that I was trying to say that 5-BG was not me, as I have back
bone, will sign my posts, and, if I say it here on RAS, I will say it to
your face in in "just as strong of language as Frank Reid" I stand by those
comments, and I do not think this was inciting him to act as he has been. I
still urge calm with the situation, and confidence in the actions of those
trying to fix it.


Brian Glick
"KM" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>
> Brian Glick wrote:
>> KM
>>
>> I think you better re-read my posts. I have been urging calm and
>> civility,
>> and the means Frank Reid uses on her are not good. I may have siad I
>> agreed
>> with some of his points, but not how he is going about it!!!
>
> Brian, I did reread your post and here is a direct quote "I second what
> Frank Reid said in just as strong of language".Kinda looks like you are
> behind the guy and his conduct.Brian, I dont know what the standards
> are in your part of the country, but it may come as a surprise to you
> that this sport is not just limited to rich old white guys.I would
> suggest that you distance yourself from racist ding dongs like Frank
> Reid.
>
> K Urban
>