How much do you trim?

[Mxsmanic]

What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

I understand trim to be a convenience, so that a pilot doesn't have to
constantly maintain force against the controls for long periods. Thus
it should never be dangerous not to trim, except insofar as it can be
tiring to hold an untrimmed aircraft in a given attitude for long
periods.

The thing I wonder about is the possible distraction of trimming the
aircraft. It looks like trim controls are often in spots like the
pedestal or throttle quadrant, where presumably one must direct one's
attention in order to adjust trim. It's hard to imagine doing this
during critical phases of flight such as take-off or landing, and yet
I read recommendations for trim in both cases. Where do you draw the
line between trimming unnecessarily and not trimming enough? How
often do you actually reach for the trim controls?

Also, it seems that most trim is pitch trim. I don't see much mention
of aileron or rudder trim. Do you use it? Do you ever trim out
P-factor or torque effects? I turned both back on in my sim and
adjusted them to where the vendor says they should be to match the
real aircraft, and I find them irritating, but not overwhelming (the
vendor has apparently set the most realistic factors at 50% instead of
100%, so that masochists can increase their effects beyond real life
if desired).

Another problem I have: How do you remember where you set the trim?
I know you can look, and I know that you can guess if the aircraft is
behaving strangely, but how do you keep track of where you last set
the trim? Each time I set it I tend to forget about it until some
important moment when I'm already busy with other things.

Also, I presume that most autopilots use trim for pitch control. If
you shut off the autopilot, does the trim remain whereever the A/P set
it? If so, do you change it? Is it hard to remember that the A/P has
probably changed it?

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[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 10:05:20 +0200, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

I haven't trimmed in about two years. Plane doesn't have cockpit-adjustable
trim. I just bend the metal tabs on occasion.

Ron Wanttaja

[Doug[_1_]]

Trim every time you change pitch. Trim when needed even in level
flight. Basically, you trim whenever you need it, and that is fairly
often. IDEAL airplane would have trim in all three axis, but most small
GA don't.

[mike regish]

I consider trim to be the most important control on the plane. I learned to
fly in a $250 used hang glider-the original Rogallo "you-stall-you-die"
design. I didn't realize how out of balance it was until I took it on the
first soaring flight. After a half hour my arms were cramped and it was
really difficult to control. My second hang glider flew hands off and the
entire flying experience in it just didn't compare to that first glider. I
spent 5 1/2 hours over Mt. Greylock one time.

I got into an ultralight next, and that was also out of trim with no means
to adjust it in flight. If I let go of the stick, it would start going down
and to the right. Again, my arm would cramp after about 45 minutes and I
always felt I was balanced on the point of a pin and one moments inattention
would have me falling off.

My Tripaver has the trim handle overhead. It is a crank style rather than a
wheel, but at this point I don't even have to look for it. My hand goes
right to it and the inputs are automatic. Trim wheels are the same. Just
trim out the control pressure and you're along for the ride. I once flew
from Block Island to Barnes in Westfield-about 85 miles-without ever
touching the yoke (after takeoff) until I flared for landing. At one point I
noticed I had lost 100'. My front seat passenger was leaning forward looking
out the window. I had him sit back and we came right back to altitude, where
I kept the altimeter pinned on my desired altitude for the entire flight.

Trimming is much less distracting and effortless that constantly monitoring
and correcting your airspeed and altitude. One of the biggest problems
people have when landing is not trimming the plane for approach speed and
attitude. When you have to grip the yoke and maintain pressure on it all the
way in, it makes it harder to use the fine touch it takes to make a nice,
gentle touchdown.

The only time you need to visually check the trim setting is for takeoff.
While flying, it is set by feel. One thing that might make this more
apparent to you is a feedback controller. I used to use the Force Feedback
controller and it made simming a lot more realistic.

mike

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

[frghawk]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

Trim to releave control pressure for any given attitude that you plan
to maintain for more than a few seconds.
>
> Another problem I have: How do you remember where you set the trim?
> I know you can look, and I know that you can guess if the aircraft is
> behaving strangely, but how do you keep track of where you last set
> the trim? Each time I set it I tend to forget about it until some
> important moment when I'm already busy with other things.

Elevator trim: You don't have to keep track of it. You should just feel
when it's needed. Set it to neutral when procedures call for it -
before takeoff, that's about the only time you need to worry about its
exact position, except for big airliners, which I believe have to have
trim reset to 0 before landing as well. If you can't relax your hand on
the yoke because your input is needed to correct pitch at any given
time -- time to trim. Ailerons and rudder trims are a bit different.
Those are mostly used to keep coordinated flight once straight and
level.


------------------------------------------
Ed.
PP-ASEL, PA-28-161, FRG

[Robert Chambers]

The discussion of trim in a flight sim on a PC is academic. In an
aircraft, trim is not so much a "convenience" as you seem to think.
Flying a plane out of trip is a big distraction.

Most planes have elevator trim, some planes have aileron trim and some
have rudder trim. Having all 3 means you can trim the plane to fly
pretty much wherever you want it to.

You ought to save up your pocket money and take a discovery flight then
you can see and feel the things you're asking about.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?
>
> I understand trim to be a convenience, so that a pilot doesn't have to
> constantly maintain force against the controls for long periods. Thus
> it should never be dangerous not to trim, except insofar as it can be
> tiring to hold an untrimmed aircraft in a given attitude for long
> periods.
>
> The thing I wonder about is the possible distraction of trimming the
> aircraft. It looks like trim controls are often in spots like the
> pedestal or throttle quadrant, where presumably one must direct one's
> attention in order to adjust trim. It's hard to imagine doing this
> during critical phases of flight such as take-off or landing, and yet
> I read recommendations for trim in both cases. Where do you draw the
> line between trimming unnecessarily and not trimming enough? How
> often do you actually reach for the trim controls?
>
> Also, it seems that most trim is pitch trim. I don't see much mention
> of aileron or rudder trim. Do you use it? Do you ever trim out
> P-factor or torque effects? I turned both back on in my sim and
> adjusted them to where the vendor says they should be to match the
> real aircraft, and I find them irritating, but not overwhelming (the
> vendor has apparently set the most realistic factors at 50% instead of
> 100%, so that masochists can increase their effects beyond real life
> if desired).
>
> Another problem I have: How do you remember where you set the trim?
> I know you can look, and I know that you can guess if the aircraft is
> behaving strangely, but how do you keep track of where you last set
> the trim? Each time I set it I tend to forget about it until some
> important moment when I'm already busy with other things.
>
> Also, I presume that most autopilots use trim for pitch control. If
> you shut off the autopilot, does the trim remain whereever the A/P set
> it? If so, do you change it? Is it hard to remember that the A/P has
> probably changed it?
>

[Mxsmanic]

Doug writes:

> Trim every time you change pitch. Trim when needed even in level
> flight. Basically, you trim whenever you need it, and that is fairly
> often.

So how do you know when you need it?

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[Mxsmanic]

mike regish writes:

> The only time you need to visually check the trim setting is for takeoff.

I usually take off with trim neutral. I've heard varying opinions
about how to set it for that phase of flight.

> While flying, it is set by feel.

But if you set by feel, how do you keep track of how much control
surface movement you have remaining? If the trim has a control
service held very near the limit of its travel, you might run out of
space when you need it.


> One thing that might make this more
> apparent to you is a feedback controller. I used to use the Force Feedback
> controller and it made simming a lot more realistic.

I've heard opinions for and against. Some say it improves the feel,
others say the feel is there but very different from the real thing,
so much so that it's better to do without. Personally, on the one
hand feedback is hard to find and expensive, and on the other the
feedback would vary by aircraft, anyway, so there'd be no one ideal
feedback setting (and I fly with a joystick, while most aircraft are
using a yoke).

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[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> Oh that's right... Your simulator doesn't have control pressure.

It has springs, which serve much the same purpose. It's tiring to
hold the controls against a spring, too.

What does an A320 have?

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[Mxsmanic]

Robert Chambers writes:

> The discussion of trim in a flight sim on a PC is academic.

Hardly. Trim does the same thing on a simulator that it does in real
life.

> In an aircraft, trim is not so much a "convenience" as you seem
> to think.

A lot of aircraft and pilots seem to do without it, so obviously it is
not necessary.

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[mike regish]

If you can't let go of the stick without starting to climb or descend, you
need it. This is the thing I always had trouble with in sims, especially
with a cheap stick that didn't have trim on it.

mike

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Doug writes:
>
>> Trim every time you change pitch. Trim when needed even in level
>> flight. Basically, you trim whenever you need it, and that is fairly
>> often.
>
> So how do you know when you need it?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[mike regish]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> mike regish writes:
>
>> While flying, it is set by feel.
>
> But if you set by feel, how do you keep track of how much control
> surface movement you have remaining? If the trim has a control
> service held very near the limit of its travel, you might run out of
> space when you need it.

You don't need to keep track of anything. The only way you'll ever run out
of trim or control movement range is if you've loaded the plane grossly
outside the weight and balance envelope. Generally, the trim setting has
nothing to do with the range of control movement. It can be a small
adjustable tab on the elevator trailing edge or it can be the entire
horizontal stabilizer.
>

[Robert M. Gary]

It totally depends on the plane. I used to fly a Globe Swift and I
never found any reason to need to touch the trim. The plane flew hands
off at whatever you pointed it to. I currently own a Mooney and I spend
more time in the pattern moving the trim than holding the throttle. The
entire downwind of a Mooney is rolling the trim back, slowing the plane
down.

Bottom line is that it depends on the design of the plane how sensitive
it is to trim and how much trim change it requires for any
displacement.

-Robert, CFII

[mike regish]

The springs don't really serve the "same" purpose. The springs just return
the stick to the center position. When trimming a real plane, you hold yoke
pressure until your speed and altitude stabilize, then trim out that
pressure until you can let go of the yoke and the plane remains stable.

mike

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>B A R R Y writes:
>
>> Oh that's right... Your simulator doesn't have control pressure.
>
> It has springs, which serve much the same purpose. It's tiring to
> hold the controls against a spring, too.
>
> What does an A320 have?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-10-09, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert Chambers writes:
>
>> The discussion of trim in a flight sim on a PC is academic.
>
> Hardly. Trim does the same thing on a simulator that it does in real
> life.

Not really. In a real aircraft, you trim out the forces you're feeling
without actually moving the control itself.

However, controls for a PC don't work like this - so you have to feed in
trim to the simulator, while gradually moving the joystick to the centre
position - because all that's providing resistance is a set of static
springs.

It would be possible to design flight controls for a PC simulator (which
are inadequate on so many levels - even the expensive ones) which work
just like trim works on a real aircraft, but it would be extremely
expensive. The other problem with PC controls is that they don't move
nearly far enough. The CH yoke for example, goes in and out (for pitch)
about 3 or 4 inches, and turns about 45 degrees in each diretion. The
yoke on a Cessna 172 has probably 18 inches of fore/aft travel and turns
through about 120 degrees in each direction. CH rudder pedals maybe
displace an inch or so, but the rudder pedals on a C172 probably
displace a good 5 or 6 inches. This means that the controls on a
simulator are _insanely_ sensitive if you want them to be able to make
full control deflections.

>> In an aircraft, trim is not so much a "convenience" as you seem
>> to think.
>
> A lot of aircraft and pilots seem to do without it, so obviously it is
> not necessary.

Name ten!

If you're doing without trim in a real aircraft, you _are_ doing it
wrong, at least for any conventional light plane right up to airliners.
Trim is absolutely essential in pitch.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Tauno Voipio]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> Also, I presume that most autopilots use trim for pitch control. If
> you shut off the autopilot, does the trim remain whereever the A/P set
> it? If so, do you change it? Is it hard to remember that the A/P has
> probably changed it?
>

It seems that nobody has responded to this yet ...

The autopilot controls pitch with the elevator servo,
much in the same way the roll is controlled with the
aileron servo. The elevator servo can measure the force
needed to keep the proper attitude, and after a small
delay, it trims the force off with the trim servo.

When the autopilot is released, it leaves the airplane
in trim to the pilot - there's no need to remember the
trim position.

HTH

--

Tauno Voipio
tauno voipio (at) iki fi

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?
>
> I understand trim to be a convenience, so that a pilot doesn't have to
> constantly maintain force against the controls for long periods. Thus
> it should never be dangerous not to trim, except insofar as it can be
> tiring to hold an untrimmed aircraft in a given attitude for long
> periods.
>
> The thing I wonder about is the possible distraction of trimming the
> aircraft. It looks like trim controls are often in spots like the
> pedestal or throttle quadrant, where presumably one must direct one's
> attention in order to adjust trim. It's hard to imagine doing this
> during critical phases of flight such as take-off or landing, and yet
> I read recommendations for trim in both cases. Where do you draw the
> line between trimming unnecessarily and not trimming enough? How
> often do you actually reach for the trim controls?

A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
so many of your questions. Why not do it?

Dan

[Mxsmanic]

writes:

> A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
> so many of your questions. Why not do it?

If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?

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[A Lieberma]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> writes:
>
>> A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
>> so many of your questions. Why not do it?
>
> If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?

The above answer is as good as it gets.

Why wast our time asking questions when all your answers can be answered as
suggested above.

Or better yet, just go to a sim group and ask your questions since you
don't want to experience flying a REAL PLANE.

Allen

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 19:11:06 +0200, Mxsmanic > wrote:

> writes:
>
> > A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
> > so many of your questions. Why not do it?
>
> If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?

Because no matter who responds, you're getting the answer filtered through their
senses and experience. It's like asking someone what an apple tastes like,
rather than biting into one yourself. Everyone's experience differs; you will
not gain a consensus on which to base an opinion. Five minutes in an aircraft
would allow you to understand the issues of trim, from both a conscious and
muscle-memory perspective.

Ron Wanttaja

[Tom Young[_2_]]

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> It totally depends on the plane.

Second that. The C150 I fly requires a lot less trim than the C172, to the
point that I forget to use it sometimes. The 172 really doesn't let me
forget.

Tom Young

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> writes:
>
> > A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
> > so many of your questions. Why not do it?
>
> If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?

I don't think its a waste of time. Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.
Its usually around 20 minutes and if you get a 1/2 way good instructor
you will be on the controls most of the time. I think most of the
questions you have will be very obvious when you get in the plane.
Imagine learning to run a lawn mower via a simulator. You'd have a lot
of questions that would just seem obvious when you get the real thing.
If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.

-Robert

[A Lieberma]

"Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:1160415719.703433.23610
@i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:

> If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
> for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
> place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
> plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.

He lives in France...... Needless to say, even if he lived at the approach
end of your local airport runway, he will make every excuse in the world to
get off his beloved simulater and get in a real plane.

I'd bet if he would get out of his lazy boy chair, off his simulator and
trundle up to his local GA airport, that he could even maybe get a local
pilot to give him a taste of aviation freedom.

But no, based on his posting history, I'd bet he would find an excuse for
not doing this......

Allen

[Peter Duniho]

"mike regish" > wrote in message
. ..
> [...] Generally, the trim setting has nothing to do with the range of
> control movement. It can be a small adjustable tab on the elevator
> trailing edge or it can be the entire horizontal stabilizer.

This has all already been explained to him in great detail in another
thread.

You guys are just falling into his net again...

[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> Because no matter who responds, you're getting the answer filtered through their
> senses and experience. It's like asking someone what an apple tastes like,
> rather than biting into one yourself. Everyone's experience differs; you will
> not gain a consensus on which to base an opinion. Five minutes in an aircraft
> would allow you to understand the issues of trim, from both a conscious and
> muscle-memory perspective.

Why ask what it's like to be President, when five minutes being
President can answer all your questions?

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[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> I don't think its a waste of time. Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.

Two days' wages for me. And there's still no way to get out to the
airport. And this is France, so you can multiply all costs by a
factor of 3 to 10.

> Its usually around 20 minutes and if you get a 1/2 way good instructor
> you will be on the controls most of the time.

Twenty minutes is not worth $49.

> If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
> for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
> place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
> plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.

But I can use the software for a lot longer than 20 minutes.

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[Dave Stadt]

"A Lieberma" > wrote in message
. 18...
> "Robert M. Gary" > wrote in news:1160415719.703433.23610
> @i3g2000cwc.googlegroups.com:
>
>> If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
>> for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
>> place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
>> plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.
>
> He lives in France...... Needless to say, even if he lived at the
> approach
> end of your local airport runway, he will make every excuse in the world
> to
> get off his beloved simulater and get in a real plane.
>
> I'd bet if he would get out of his lazy boy chair, off his simulator and
> trundle up to his local GA airport, that he could even maybe get a local
> pilot to give him a taste of aviation freedom.
>
> But no, based on his posting history, I'd bet he would find an excuse for
> not doing this......
>
> Allen

He doesn't have a simulator he has a Microsoft game. Saw an ad on TV last
night for their new verson and it was advertised as a game.

[A Lieberma]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in
t:

> He doesn't have a simulator he has a Microsoft game. Saw an ad on TV
> last night for their new verson and it was advertised as a game.

Cha Ching,

Considering we fly "toys at toy airports" per his response in another
thread, you are right, he's only a gamer.

Allen

[Tom Young[_2_]]

Ron Wanttaja wrote:

> Plane doesn't have cockpit-adjustable
> trim. I just bend the metal tabs on occasion.

I see how that makes sense with an open cockpit and all, but how do you
reach all the way back there when you're flying?

ba dum chhhh

Tom Young

[RK Henry]

On 9 Oct 2006 10:41:59 -0700, "Robert M. Gary" >
wrote:

>...Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.
>Its usually around 20 minutes and if you get a 1/2 way good instructor
>you will be on the controls most of the time.

Dangerous advice. For an introductory price you get addicted and find
yourself with an aviation habit and can't stop. That's what happened
to me, though it was quite a bit cheaper than $49 at the time.

It looks like Be-A-Pilot is a bit higher...
http://www.beapilot.com

Still, I always advise everyone that it's better to go ahead and do
it. You don't want to end up on your deathbed whispering "Rosebud!"
and wondering about your aviation life that might have been.

RK Henry

[Jim Macklin]

The pilot flies the control wheel and trims control
pressures to zero. Trim any and every time any change will
be for more than a few seconds, with one exception, don't
trim below Vx.



"Doug" > wrote in message
ups.com...
| Trim every time you change pitch. Trim when needed even in
level
| flight. Basically, you trim whenever you need it, and that
is fairly
| often. IDEAL airplane would have trim in all three axis,
but most small
| GA don't.
|

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Peter Duniho" > wrote

> This has all already been explained to him in great detail in another thread.
>
> You guys are just falling into his net again...

Really! Geez, what does he care about trim, anyway? Is he afraid his monitor
is going to slide off his desk and crash?

Let the sim groups handle his questions, guys! He doesn't want to, and never is
going to fly a real airplane!

Once again, don't answer him, until he has taken a lesson in a real airplane,
and has some questions about that experience!
--
Jim in NC

[Robert Chambers]

Get your mom to take you out to the airport one day and sign the release
for you. You will enjoy it and it will be good for show and tell at school.

Robert M. Gary wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
writes:
>>
>>
>>>A one-hour introductory flight (in a real airplane) would answer
>>>so many of your questions. Why not do it?
>>
>>If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?
>
>
> I don't think its a waste of time. Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.
> Its usually around 20 minutes and if you get a 1/2 way good instructor
> you will be on the controls most of the time. I think most of the
> questions you have will be very obvious when you get in the plane.
> Imagine learning to run a lawn mower via a simulator. You'd have a lot
> of questions that would just seem obvious when you get the real thing.
> If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
> for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
> place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
> plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.
>
> -Robert
>

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Morgans wrote:
> Let the sim groups handle his questions, guys! He doesn't want to, and never
> is going to fly a real airplane!


I believe his reputation has been noted in the sim groups. The general
consensus is that he earned it. Oddly, he seems to seldom post there. He
prefers to pollute our air.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>
> If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?


You have the balls to ask about wasting time?



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Tom Young wrote:
> Second that. The C150 I fly requires a lot less trim than the C172, to the
> point that I forget to use it sometimes. The 172 really doesn't let me
> forget.


I ferried a C-172 with a coworker up to an engine shop a few years ago as one of
a flight of two. When we got there, I got into the back of the other C-172.
After we took off, I carefully noted when the pilot trimmed the aircraft, then
leaned forward to engage the guys in the front in conversation. The pilot would
fly along for a minute or two, then retrim. I'd lean back and wait a few
minutes until he retrimmed yet again. Then I leaned forward to talk to the guys
up front again.... making cracks about his apparent inability to hold altitude.

Heh heh... I must have done it four or five times before the pilot caught on.
<G> Lucky for me, there was no ejection seat in the C-172.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Emily]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Tom Young wrote:
>> Second that. The C150 I fly requires a lot less trim than the C172, to the
>> point that I forget to use it sometimes. The 172 really doesn't let me
>> forget.
>
>
> I ferried a C-172 with a coworker up to an engine shop a few years ago as one of
> a flight of two. When we got there, I got into the back of the other C-172.
> After we took off, I carefully noted when the pilot trimmed the aircraft, then
> leaned forward to engage the guys in the front in conversation. The pilot would
> fly along for a minute or two, then retrim. I'd lean back and wait a few
> minutes until he retrimmed yet again. Then I leaned forward to talk to the guys
> up front again.... making cracks about his apparent inability to hold altitude.
>
> Heh heh... I must have done it four or five times before the pilot caught on.
> <G> Lucky for me, there was no ejection seat in the C-172.

I'd have pushed you out the door. I had a 260 lb friend who would wait
patiently until I got the plane trimmed and then slam his seat all the
way back. He did it so fast that I didn't see it coming.

This was the same guy who completely shut an engine down on me once.
I'm sure it was payback for something, I just can't remember what.

[cjcampbell]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

You should be able to take your hands off the controls without the
airplane changing attitude. You set your pitch and then trim to hold it
there. You should never have to use more than two fingers to control
the plane.

There are some pilots who like a little pressure on the controls, but
these are the guys who have arms like Popeye.

[John Gaquin]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message

A) Buy a book.

or

B) Pay a flight instructor for an hour, and ask him.

[Emily]

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
>> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
>> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?

You don't ever need to trim, because you are not flying a real airplane.

[tony roberts[_1_]]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> How much do you trim?

For myself, not too much off the sides and just a tidy up at the back.

For my sim - a piece of card under the offending desk leg usually works
just fine.

For my plane - it's complicated to explain but easy to do - you learn
about it during flight training.

Tony

transpose Tony and "you're becoming a pain in the ass" to reach me by
email.


--

Tony Roberts
PP-ASEL
VFR OTT
Night
Cessna 172H C-GICE

[Peter Duniho]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> If you don't want to answer my question, why waste my time and yours?
>
> You have the balls to ask about wasting time?

It's Usenet. It doesn't take "balls" to write anything you want.

[Mxsmanic]

cjcampbell writes:

> You should be able to take your hands off the controls without the
> airplane changing attitude. You set your pitch and then trim to hold it
> there. You should never have to use more than two fingers to control
> the plane.

The closest I can come in a sim is to keep the plane trimmed so I
don't have to move the joystick, but I guess that's a useful
approximation. In real life, from what I understand, the controls
would actually be in a different position, assuming that they are
mechanically linked to the control surfaces.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jay Beckman]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Tom Young wrote:
>> Second that. The C150 I fly requires a lot less trim than the C172, to
>> the
>> point that I forget to use it sometimes. The 172 really doesn't let me
>> forget.
>
>
> I ferried a C-172 with a coworker up to an engine shop a few years ago as
> one of a flight of two. When we got there, I got into the back of the
> other C-172. After we took off, I carefully noted when the pilot trimmed
> the aircraft, then leaned forward to engage the guys in the front in
> conversation. The pilot would fly along for a minute or two, then retrim.
> I'd lean back and wait a few minutes until he retrimmed yet again. Then I
> leaned forward to talk to the guys up front again.... making cracks about
> his apparent inability to hold altitude.
>
> Heh heh... I must have done it four or five times before the pilot caught
> on. <G> Lucky for me, there was no ejection seat in the C-172.
> --
> Mortimer Schnerd, RN
> mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

About 3 months after I got my private certificate, I decided to go back for
a little XC with the CFI who had actually been my CFI at the time of my
checkride in order to just make sure I hadn't started to develop any early
bad habits.

As we were headed southeast from Phoenix, ATC called traffic overtaking us
from our six o'clock and co-alt (ATC was not talking to that traffic...)
Try as we might, we couldn't pick him up and eventually ATC suggests we
descend. Right before I reach to retard the throttle and before I can push
the nose down, my good old CFI racks the passenger seat back to the rear
stop and just flops the seat flat trying to look up through the rear
windows. We immediately gain about 150 feet which probably was not a good
thing since we were pretty sure the conflicting traffic was above and behind
us.

Scared the hell out of me and I didn't let him hear the end of it all the
way to our destination (and part of the way back, too...)

Jay B

[Thomas Borchert]

A,

> But no, based on his posting history, I'd bet he would find an excuse for
> not doing this......
>

He's deadly afraid of flying, in case you haven't noticed. And of many other
things.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Cubdriver]

I flew a J-3 Piper Cub, which has a crank handle (actually the window
handle from a Model A Ford, I believe) lower left where it can be
reached from front or rear seat. While it's possible to fly without
trimming, it's annoying to continually hold stick pressure, and I
think it's a bit dangerous on landing and even on takeoff. At those
times you want a 'nice' feel for the stick, which is spoiled if you
are holding it fore or aft in order to get neutral (if you follow!).

Basically, I check the position of the stabiliator (pitch trim on the
Cub is done by moving the front of the horizontal stabilizer up and
down--with an automobile jack worm!) while doing my preflight
walkaround. My pre-takeoff checklist is CIGARS, with the A standing
for Attitude, and at that letter I eyeball the trim indicator. I have
on rare occasions adjusted the trim in the course of taking off, if I
find myself holding forward stick in order to stay about say 50 mph on
the airspeed indicator.

I trim for level flight after I've finished the climb. Most of the
time that's full forward, and sometimes full forward isn't enough and
I hold a bit of forward stick.

And I trim for glide when I cut my power on the downleg opposite the
numbers. The object is to glide at 60 mph on the airspeed indicator;
that's neutral trim with the power off.

I did some training at Chandler AZ in a Super Cub, and the instructor
insisted that I stop trimming on landing. I didn't like it much, and
as soon as I was alone I reverted to going to neutral trim on every
downwind. (I suppose he was having me adjust the power on each leg of
the pattern, so I was adjusting trim on downwind, base, and final.)

No rudder or aileron trim on the Cub.

[Cubdriver]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:55:16 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>So how do you know when you need it?

Plane doesn't fly straight & level. Wants to lose altitude, less often
to gain altitude. Or in a climb, wants to climb at an angle
approaching stall. Or in a landing, wants to dive instead of glide.

The great thing is to be able to hold the stick so lightly that your
fingers aren't really touching it; the plane flies itself.

(Can't speak for those planes with steering wheels :)

Not for nothing is it called a joystick!

[Cubdriver]

On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:04:35 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>But if you set by feel, how do you keep track of how much control
>surface movement you have remaining? If the trim has a control
>service held very near the limit of its travel, you might run out of
>space when you need it.

That's what 'weight & balance' calculations are all about!

And that's why you don't fly a J-3 Cub solo from the front seat. It's
just barely possible (if it's not placarded!) but you run the risk of
running out of control with the stick.

In the Cub, I always run out of TRIM control in level flight. It's
right up against the stop.

[[email protected]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> The thing I wonder about is the possible distraction of trimming the
> aircraft. It looks like trim controls are often in spots like the
> pedestal or throttle quadrant, where presumably one must direct one's
> attention in order to adjust trim. It's hard to imagine doing this
> during critical phases of flight such as take-off or landing, and yet
> I read recommendations for trim in both cases. Where do you draw the
> line between trimming unnecessarily and not trimming enough? How
> often do you actually reach for the trim controls?

You can compare the trim thing a bit like changing gears in a car.
One knows where the gear lever is without looking and you know what to
do without thinking(release accelorator, press clutch, change gear,
release clutch while rev up engine)
Trimming a plane is about the same when it comes to distraction and
attention needed.

-Kees.

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-10-09, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I don't think its a waste of time. Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.
>
> Two days' wages for me. And there's still no way to get out to the
> airport. And this is France, so you can multiply all costs by a
> factor of 3 to 10.

Is pay really that low in France? That would be well below the minimum
wage just across the water in the UK presumably you're talking about
full time. (Or maybe you're a kid still living at home - I don't know).

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-10-10, Mortimer Schnerd, RN <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:
> Heh heh... I must have done it four or five times before the pilot caught on.
><G> Lucky for me, there was no ejection seat in the C-172.

You are only a student in evil tricks, I'm afraid :-)

When doing hood time for my instrument rating, I tended to do all the
training at night, since it simulates IMC better when under the hood -
no sunlight cues to tip you off.

At this point I had ILS approaches nailed - I could keep the needles in
the donut in the middle of the instrument. I was really proud on how I
could make it look like the instrument wasn't even functional.

My safety pilot - let's call him Paul because that's his real name and I
don't want to protect the guilty - gave me lots of aggro that night in
the name of training, but his best one was on the ILS.

Passing the outer marker, I made the customary power and pitch changes
and began to follow the glideslope. Then the plane started drifting
high. So I corrected. Then it drifted low. I just couldn't nail the
glideslope whatever I did. I was getting more and more distracted by
this, when two lights shone through that bit of the windscreen the hood
doesn't quite block, convincing my sense of balance that we were now in
a 60 degree bank. Not only was I fighting spatial disorientation, I was
all over the place on the glideslope, and now started to go all over the
place on the localiser. At the decision height I was so glad to whip the
hood up - I was starting to get overloaded.

We did the missed approach, and flew home.

When we were taxiing in, I grumbled about how terrible the ILS was - and
how I couldn't figure out how I'd flown it so badly. Paul did not say a
word. He just slid his seat back then forwards! The seat rails in a C172
are very long, so he could move an awful long way fore and aft - and
he's quite a big guy...

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Thomas Borchert]

Dylan,

> Is pay really that low in France?
>

You really need to read the other threads involving the guy. Pay is not
that low in France. One only needs to work.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[A Lieberma]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> approximation. In real life, from what I understand, the controls
> would actually be in a different position, assuming that they are
> mechanically linked to the control surfaces.

How would the controls be linked if they were not mechanically done so???
Osmosis?????

In the real world, everything is connected mechanically in some manner,
shape or form.

Ya know, a trip to your local GA airport will answer this question on REAL
PLANES and you don't even have to leave the ground instead of playing on
the game MSFS.

Allen

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
>B A R R Y writes:
>
>> Oh that's right... Your simulator doesn't have control pressure.
>
> It has springs, which serve much the same purpose. It's tiring to
> hold the controls against a spring, too.
>

The springs in your joystick just center the stick.

MSFS has a reasonable simulation of trim you should be able to trim the
aircraft to the point it will fly straight and level with the joystick
centered.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Chambers writes:
>
>> The discussion of trim in a flight sim on a PC is academic.
>
> Hardly. Trim does the same thing on a simulator that it does in real
> life.
>
>> In an aircraft, trim is not so much a "convenience" as you seem
>> to think.
>
> A lot of aircraft and pilots seem to do without it, so obviously it is
> not necessary.
>
> --

No really they don't. Elevator trim is taught during your first lesson for
your Private certificate.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
>> I don't think its a waste of time. Most FBOs offer a $49 intro ride.
>
> Two days' wages for me. And there's still no way to get out to the
> airport. And this is France, so you can multiply all costs by a
> factor of 3 to 10.
>
>> Its usually around 20 minutes and if you get a 1/2 way good instructor
>> you will be on the controls most of the time.
>
> Twenty minutes is not worth $49.
>
>> If you're in Sacramento, I can take you up on a 20 minute intro ride
>> for the $49 intro price. We'd fly out over the "naked place" (nudist
>> place) and do some basic turning and climbing to get a feel for the
>> plane. $49 is probably about what you paid for the software.
>
> But I can use the software for a lot longer than 20 minutes.
>
> --

If you really have this much interest in real aircraft $49 would be worth
every penny even if it was for less than 20 minutes. Since you don't have
interest in real aircraft would you please take the crap back over to the
sim group.

[Robert Chambers]

Well not in the A320 that you are a pilot in but in the toy airplanes
most of us fly - yes, they are mechanically linked to the control surfaces.

Mxsmanic wrote:
> cjcampbell writes:
>
>
>>You should be able to take your hands off the controls without the
>>airplane changing attitude. You set your pitch and then trim to hold it
>>there. You should never have to use more than two fingers to control
>>the plane.
>
>
> The closest I can come in a sim is to keep the plane trimmed so I
> don't have to move the joystick, but I guess that's a useful
> approximation. In real life, from what I understand, the controls
> would actually be in a different position, assuming that they are
> mechanically linked to the control surfaces.
>

[Ron Natalie]

mike regish wrote:
> If you can't let go of the stick without starting to climb or descend, you
> need it. This is the thing I always had trouble with in sims, especially
> with a cheap stick that didn't have trim on it.
>
Some aircraft like a 152, you could go a long time without trimming.
It's quite easy to hold pitch without even trying. Others are a
bit more demanding. I got to fly a Republic Seabee the other day.
Believe me, you want to retrim that puppy. It takes a lot of force
to hold her when she's out of trim. Other aircraft it's a convenience.

And I can tell you, I got used to the electric trim in the Navion
real fast.

[Ron Natalie]

Cubdriver wrote:
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:55:16 +0200, Mxsmanic >
> wrote:
>
>> So how do you know when you need it?
>
> Plane doesn't fly straight & level. Wants to lose altitude, less often
> to gain altitude. Or in a climb, wants to climb at an angle
> approaching stall. Or in a landing, wants to dive instead of glide.
>
> The great thing is to be able to hold the stick so lightly that your
> fingers aren't really touching it; the plane flies itself.
>
>
The thing MXMANICDEPRESSIVE won't ever see with his simulator is
how heavy the control forces will get with an out of trim aircraft.

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
...
> Cubdriver wrote:
>> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 16:55:16 +0200, Mxsmanic >
>> wrote:
>>
>>> So how do you know when you need it?
>>
>> Plane doesn't fly straight & level. Wants to lose altitude, less often
>> to gain altitude. Or in a climb, wants to climb at an angle
>> approaching stall. Or in a landing, wants to dive instead of glide.
>>
>> The great thing is to be able to hold the stick so lightly that your
>> fingers aren't really touching it; the plane flies itself.
>>
>>
> The thing MXMANICDEPRESSIVE won't ever see with his simulator is
> how heavy the control forces will get with an out of trim aircraft.

I forgot to set the trim to neutral once before takeoff in a C-172
(accidently skipped over it on the checklist), with my instructor on
board... started down the runway, hit 55kts, and went to pull back to
rotate, and was like "Wow!!! This is a lot heavier than normal!!!!" kind of
like when you do touch and goes, and kind of thought to myself that my
instructor had one too many doughnuts lately... Got the plane off the
ground and climbing... Then I guess my brain was quickly rationalizing what
could cause it to be so heavy, and glanced down and saw it had a fair amount
of nose down trim (probably from the person who landed it before me), and
went "Oh Crap!!!... forgot the trim!!!", and quickly took out a bunch of the
nose down trim... :-) Was much easier to fly then. :-) You can bet I
check that now everytime before take off. :-) You don't get this
experience (how hard it is to pull the plane off the ground) in MSFS, and
same for steep turns, first time I did steep turns (in C-172) I was shocked
at how hard you have to pull on the elevator to maintain altitude, it seemed
like it was probably at least a good 10 lbs, probably more.

Reason I say it felt like when you do touch and goes, is you typically don't
have time to reset the trim during a touch and go and kind of have to
wrestle the plane off the runway and trim during the climb... Or at least I
was not taught to reset the trim during a touch and go (while rolling on the
ground), but taught to trim while climbing out, probably because if you
reset it while on the ground you actually have to look down and a lot can
happen in those few seconds you aren't looking out the windshield, and
during the climb you can trim without having to look at the trim wheel and
beside if you set it you will more than likely have to retrim on the climb
anyway.

Wade Hasbrouck
PP-ASEL
http://spaces.live.com/wadehas

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Cubdriver" <usenet AT danford.net> wrote in message
...
> On Mon, 09 Oct 2006 17:04:35 +0200, Mxsmanic >
> wrote:
>
>>But if you set by feel, how do you keep track of how much control
>>surface movement you have remaining? If the trim has a control
>>service held very near the limit of its travel, you might run out of
>>space when you need it.
>
> That's what 'weight & balance' calculations are all about!
>
> And that's why you don't fly a J-3 Cub solo from the front seat. It's
> just barely possible (if it's not placarded!) but you run the risk of
> running out of control with the stick.
>
> In the Cub, I always run out of TRIM control in level flight. It's
> right up against the stop.

I remember in my "engine-out" practice for my license, trimming for best
glide speed of 65 kts in a C-172, basically when you run out of nose up
trim, you will be at best glide speed. Evertime I have trimed it (C-172)
for 65 kts, I ran out of nose up trim, but still had enough movement in the
elevator to fly the airplane. You have to be prepared though when you go to
apply full power with all that nose up trim, as you are going to have to
push hard on the yoke to keep it from pitching up too much, and retrim after
adding the power. :-)

Wade Hasbrouck
PP-ASEL
http://spaces.live.com/wadehas

[Emily]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Dylan,
>
>> Is pay really that low in France?
>>
>
> You really need to read the other threads involving the guy. Pay is not
> that low in France. One only needs to work.
>
Seriously. He owns a computer, after all. Along with MSFS and internet
access. Chop the internet access for a few months and you've got an
intro flight.

How much does an hour of flight time run you in Germany?

[Wade Hasbrouck]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Robert Chambers writes:
>
>> The discussion of trim in a flight sim on a PC is academic.
>
> Hardly. Trim does the same thing on a simulator that it does in real
> life.
>
>> In an aircraft, trim is not so much a "convenience" as you seem
>> to think.
>
> A lot of aircraft and pilots seem to do without it, so obviously it is
> not necessary.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

They must be some really strong pilots... as not trimming a C-172 will give
your arms quite a workout and results in a lot of unnecessary work on behalf
of the pilot, and makes it harder to fly "smoothly and precisely" as you are
constantly "fighting" the force on the elevator control. I can tell which
the difference between approaches where I have the plane nicely trimmed on
on final and the ones where the plane is slightly out of trim, as on the out
of trim approaches I am having to "work more" than I need to and it takes
away from other things I need to be concentrating on to ensure a nice smooth
landing.

Wade Hasbrouck
PP-ASEL
http://spaces.live.com/wadehas

[Gene Seibel]

Just about every time I touch the throttle or tweak my altitude.
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.


Mxsmanic wrote:
> What I see in the literature seems to vary between warnings against
> spending too much trim or flying with trim tabs, and not ever trimming
> the aircraft at all. So how much and when should I trim?
>
> I understand trim to be a convenience, so that a pilot doesn't have to
> constantly maintain force against the controls for long periods. Thus
> it should never be dangerous not to trim, except insofar as it can be
> tiring to hold an untrimmed aircraft in a given attitude for long
> periods.
>
> The thing I wonder about is the possible distraction of trimming the
> aircraft. It looks like trim controls are often in spots like the
> pedestal or throttle quadrant, where presumably one must direct one's
> attention in order to adjust trim. It's hard to imagine doing this
> during critical phases of flight such as take-off or landing, and yet
> I read recommendations for trim in both cases. Where do you draw the
> line between trimming unnecessarily and not trimming enough? How
> often do you actually reach for the trim controls?
>
> Also, it seems that most trim is pitch trim. I don't see much mention
> of aileron or rudder trim. Do you use it? Do you ever trim out
> P-factor or torque effects? I turned both back on in my sim and
> adjusted them to where the vendor says they should be to match the
> real aircraft, and I find them irritating, but not overwhelming (the
> vendor has apparently set the most realistic factors at 50% instead of
> 100%, so that masochists can increase their effects beyond real life
> if desired).
>
> Another problem I have: How do you remember where you set the trim?
> I know you can look, and I know that you can guess if the aircraft is
> behaving strangely, but how do you keep track of where you last set
> the trim? Each time I set it I tend to forget about it until some
> important moment when I'm already busy with other things.
>
> Also, I presume that most autopilots use trim for pitch control. If
> you shut off the autopilot, does the trim remain whereever the A/P set
> it? If so, do you change it? Is it hard to remember that the A/P has
> probably changed it?
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Emily writes:

> He owns a computer, after all.

The computer doesn't belong to me.

> Chop the internet access for a few months and you've got an
> intro flight.

I can't work or communicate without the Internet. I need it for work,
school, and (to a lesser extent) for leisure.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

mike regish writes:

> The springs don't really serve the "same" purpose. The springs just return
> the stick to the center position. When trimming a real plane, you hold yoke
> pressure until your speed and altitude stabilize, then trim out that
> pressure until you can let go of the yoke and the plane remains stable.

OK, but aircraft like those of Airbus have no mechanical connections
to the control surfaces. How do they do it? It must be some sort of
elaborate force-feedback joystick, too (if they provide any feedback
at all).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> MSFS has a reasonable simulation of trim you should be able to trim the
> aircraft to the point it will fly straight and level with the joystick
> centered.

It works pretty well, although it's time-consuming to get it right.
Also, the keyboard adjusts trim in fairly significant steps, whereas
something like the autopilot can adjust it to a thousandth of a
degree.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> This means that the controls on a
> simulator are _insanely_ sensitive if you want them to be able to make
> full control deflections.

And the cheaper the controls, the worse they are. I tried a cheapo
joystick today and almost dived into the ground. I don't think it
moves more than a quarter of an inch from stop to stop for control
surfaces.

> Name ten!

Anyone who flies an aircraft that doesn't provide trim.

> Trim is absolutely essential in pitch.

I just worry about not knowing how far away I am from neutral. I
could be applying enormous control surface deflection with trim
without necessarily being aware of it. So I might try to move a bit
further with the yoke and find that I'm already against the stop.

The other thing that worries me is distraction. Takeoffs, landings,
climbs, and approaches seem like bad times to be fiddling with trim,
although I suppose that depends on where the trim controls are (I get
the impression that they are often in odd places).

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> It totally depends on the plane. I used to fly a Globe Swift and I
> never found any reason to need to touch the trim. The plane flew hands
> off at whatever you pointed it to. I currently own a Mooney and I spend
> more time in the pattern moving the trim than holding the throttle. The
> entire downwind of a Mooney is rolling the trim back, slowing the plane
> down.

Interesting. So what is it that's different between the two planes?
If the aircraft requires no trim, does that mean that control surfaces
stay where they are put, or what?

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[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> When we were taxiing in, I grumbled about how terrible the ILS was - and
> how I couldn't figure out how I'd flown it so badly. Paul did not say a
> word. He just slid his seat back then forwards! The seat rails in a C172
> are very long, so he could move an awful long way fore and aft - and
> he's quite a big guy...

So what was his purpose in messing up the approach?

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[Mxsmanic]

Ron Wanttaja writes:

> Because no matter who responds, you're getting the answer filtered through their
> senses and experience.

True, but with enough responses, I can average it all out and get a
pretty accurate picture. Some things cancel out, and others
reinforce. If everyone says X, but nobody agrees on Y, then X is a
pretty good rule, but Y is not.

> Five minutes in an aircraft
> would allow you to understand the issues of trim, from both a conscious and
> muscle-memory perspective.

And a few hours in a 737 simulator would teach me a lot about that
aircraft. But neither of these things is likely to happen any time
soon.

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[Mxsmanic]

Dave Stadt writes:

> He doesn't have a simulator he has a Microsoft game. Saw an ad on TV last
> night for their new verson and it was advertised as a game.

Games make more money than simulators. Initial reports are that the
latest version has shifted a bit more towards a game, apparently to
broaden the market. All the more reason to stay with the previous
version.

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[Mxsmanic]

Dylan Smith writes:

> Is pay really that low in France?

Low pay is only part of it. It's a long story.

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[Mxsmanic]

Gig 601XL Builder writes:

> If you really have this much interest in real aircraft $49 would be worth
> every penny even if it was for less than 20 minutes.

It takes two days for me to earn $49.

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[Mxsmanic]

RK Henry writes:

> Dangerous advice. For an introductory price you get addicted and find
> yourself with an aviation habit and can't stop.

That is a risk that has occurred to me as well. And I definitely
cannot afford an expensive addiction like that.

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[Mxsmanic]

A Lieberma writes:

> How would the controls be linked if they were not mechanically done so???
> Osmosis?????

Fly-by-wire.

> In the real world, everything is connected mechanically in some manner,
> shape or form.

See above.

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[Jim Stewart]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> RK Henry writes:
>
>
>>Dangerous advice. For an introductory price you get addicted and find
>>yourself with an aviation habit and can't stop.
>
>
> That is a risk that has occurred to me as well. And I definitely
> cannot afford an expensive addiction like that.

LOL

A friend of mine turned down a ride on a
high-performance helicopter because "It might
cause me to make a bad career decision"

[Mxsmanic]

Cubdriver <usenet AT danford.net> writes:

> I trim for level flight after I've finished the climb. Most of the
> time that's full forward, and sometimes full forward isn't enough and
> I hold a bit of forward stick.

Why do you need full forward for level flight? Doesn't that imply a
badly placed center of gravity? If the aircraft is just that way, it
sounds a bit dangerous if you have to hold it like that just to stay
level.

If you let go with neutral trim, what happens?

> I did some training at Chandler AZ in a Super Cub, and the instructor
> insisted that I stop trimming on landing. I didn't like it much, and
> as soon as I was alone I reverted to going to neutral trim on every
> downwind. (I suppose he was having me adjust the power on each leg of
> the pattern, so I was adjusting trim on downwind, base, and final.)

See, if I spend time adjusting trim during those phases of flight, I
lose track of everything else. I suppose it might be easier to adjust
trim on some real aircraft, but from what I've seen of the placement
of trim controls, it doesn't seem likely. I'd be afraid of getting
distracted by trim when I should be looking at other things, like the
tree approaching my windshield.

> No rudder or aileron trim on the Cub.

What about torque effects and stuff like that?

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[Mxsmanic]

Jim Stewart writes:

> A friend of mine turned down a ride on a
> high-performance helicopter because "It might
> cause me to make a bad career decision"

I think I know exactly what he means. The risk of addiction is
probably low, but since I can't even pay my rent these days, it's
still too high a risk to take.

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[A Lieberma]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> A Lieberma writes:
>
>> How would the controls be linked if they were not mechanically done
>> so??? Osmosis?????
>
> Fly-by-wire.

Excuse me?????? WRONG AGAIN.

Look up in Google fly by wire. Nothing to do with the rigging of controls.

You know I am in a nice mood tonight. Check out
http://www.google.com/search?
hl=en&lr=&defl=en&q=define:Fly+by+wire&sa=X&oi=glossary_definition&ct=title

>> In the real world, everything is connected mechanically in some
>> manner, shape or form.
>
> See above.

WRONG AGAIN. See above.

Sheeze, when will you learn to stick with your games and leave this group
for REAL PILOTS that fly REAL PLANES.

I have yet to find anything of value in your postings since I keep typing
WRONG AGAIN on just about every one of your response.

Allen

[A Lieberma]

A Lieberma > wrote in
. 18:

Hell, reader word wrapped the URL.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fly_by_wire

Allen

[Mxsmanic]

A Lieberma writes:

> Excuse me?????? WRONG AGAIN.

No, quite right. Fly-by-wire systems are systems that have no direct
mechanical connections between pilot controls and control surfaces.
The pilot provides input to a computer with his controls; the computer
then decides what movement, if any, must be imparted to the control
surfaces, and carries out those movements. In full-authority
fly-by-wire systems, there is no way for the pilot to override the
computer; the computer is assumed to know best under all
circumstances.

Airbus became famous for putting fly-by-wire into commercial
airliners. Apparently Airbus had to find _something_ to distinguish
it from Boeing, so it decided to depend on gadgets. There have been a
lot of problems with FBW, but fortunately for Boeing, Airbus has done
most of the debugging.

Personally, I still do not trust FBW, thanks to my extensive
experience with computers. While computers can intrinsically be
trusted, the software they run cannot (since it is written by human
beings).

> I have yet to find anything of value in your postings since I keep typing
> WRONG AGAIN on just about every one of your response.

Typing it won't make it so.

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[Nik]

Msxmanic:
If you could stop wasting your time typing and arguing with people
here, and put that time to more useful things, like a job. Another job?
If I was making $49 bucks in two days, and I would want to fly, I would
instead of arguing and fly the flight-simulator (Which I am sure you do
ALOT!) I would go out there and get another job. Also I would look for
less expensive ways to fly, Gliders and Ultralights are one way. France
has many glider clubs which provide lot's of flying for alot less than
you think.

So stop arguing, bitching, whining and flying (The sim) and get to work
to fly for real!

-Nik

[Thomas Borchert]

Emily,

> How much does an hour of flight time run you in Germany?
>

Depends on what you want to fly. A 152 will be around 100 dollars,
clubs will be cheaper. Instruction in clubs is typically free,
otherwise 60 to 80 dollars is realistic for basic instruction.

The 1984 TB-10 Tobago I fly with a group of five, IFR-equipped
(including 430, Stormscope and S-TEC 50) and quite nice, flies about
100 to 120 hours per year. We figure on a total of about 190 dollars
per hour, including everything. Really everything, database updates and
such. Oh, except landing fees, about 10 dollars at a normal field, up
to and above 100 at the big international airports. It's still easily
worth 100 to land at Berlin Tempelhof (EDDI) occasionally, the "mother
of all airports", according to architect Norman Foster. You might know
it from the Billy-Wilder-movie "One, Two, Three". Built by Adolf, still
looks much like back then.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Nik,

> So stop arguing, bitching, whining and flying (The sim) and get to work
> to fly for real!
>

Two things:

1. If he has the attitude he shows here in real life, too, that might,
well, influence his efforts to get a decent job, to put it mildly.

2. I am convinced he is deadly afraid of flying. His post show that quite
clearly.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-10-11, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Dylan Smith writes:
>
>> When we were taxiing in, I grumbled about how terrible the ILS was - and
>> how I couldn't figure out how I'd flown it so badly. Paul did not say a
>> word. He just slid his seat back then forwards! The seat rails in a C172
>> are very long, so he could move an awful long way fore and aft - and
>> he's quite a big guy...
>
> So what was his purpose in messing up the approach?

To cause a distraction. This was a training flight, and you have to be
able to handle distractions in the real world - anything from trying to
get down with failed instruments or equipment to a leaky door seal
allowing rain to spray all over you.

--
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[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Gig 601XL Builder writes:
>
>> If you really have this much interest in real aircraft $49 would be worth
>> every penny even if it was for less than 20 minutes.
>
> It takes two days for me to earn $49.
>


If you just took the time you wasted in this newsgroup over the last month
or so you could have earned enough to take the flight. And two days work for
something like your first flight is not really such a waste of money.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:


> Interesting. So what is it that's different between the two planes?
> If the aircraft requires no trim, does that mean that control surfaces
> stay where they are put, or what?

My guess... its the lever difference between the CG and center of
pressure. My guess is because the C-150 and the Swift are 2 seat planes
that the moment between CG and center of pressure is small so the plane
does not have the same degree of stability and therefore, wants to stay
at the pitch you put it at. This is not generally considered a good
thing, most designs keep those distances larger such that letting go of
the controls will cause the plane to seek its trimed airspeed right
away. However, since the trim in the Swift was in the back behind my
head, I didn't complain that I never needed to get to it.

-Robert

[Mxsmanic]

Wade Hasbrouck writes:

> You don't get this experience (how hard it is to pull the plane
> off the ground) in MSFS ...

You don't get it in all aircraft, either. If you know your aircraft
well and you know it will do this, fine, but you cannot assume it as a
general rule.

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[A Lieberma]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> You don't get it in all aircraft, either. If you know your aircraft
> well and you know it will do this, fine, but you cannot assume it as a
> general rule.

WRONG AGAIN.

You don't fly a REAL PLANE, so you DON"T KNOW.

Allen