Tow Signals

[Ramy]

There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
if something is wrong with the tow plane.
I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
the rudder signal!
2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
the glider is at least 200
feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
the rudder or rocking the wings)
the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.

I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...

Ramy

[CLewis95]

Ramy,

I feel it is almost certain more accidents will occur in the confusion
of these important tow signals. I agree with you that it would be best
for the tow pilot to try the radio first if the "situation" allows for
it.

In an effort to help students keeps these signals straight ... I teach
the rudder wag as a visual metaphor(?) for being slapped in the face...
as in "WAKE UP!!!" and I repeat it every time signals are discussed or
practiced in flight. So far so good....

Curt Lewis - 95
Genesis 2
CFIG

On Oct 11, 2:02 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
> understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
> something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
> signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
> releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
> if something is wrong with the tow plane.
> I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> the rudder signal!
> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> the glider is at least 200
> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> the rudder or rocking the wings)
> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>
> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>
> Ramy

[Marc Ramsey]

Ramy wrote:
> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents.

No, we did not all pass a written test that had wiggling the rudder
meaning "check spoilers". This signal is a fairly recent innovation,
and there were several US sites that taught until recent years that
wiggling the rudder was a signal for the recommended release point,
hence some of the confusion.

> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> the rudder signal!

There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
radios, including at least one that you visit.

> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> the glider is at least 200
> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.

I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not
in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at
above pattern altitude.

> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> the rudder or rocking the wings)
> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.

No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look
around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases
you'll end up with the rope heading your way.

> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...

Likewise.

Marc

[SAM 303a]

Great metaphor to cement the signal's meaning!

"CLewis95" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ramy,
>
> I feel it is almost certain more accidents will occur in the confusion
> of these important tow signals. I agree with you that it would be best
> for the tow pilot to try the radio first if the "situation" allows for
> it.
>
> In an effort to help students keeps these signals straight ... I teach
> the rudder wag as a visual metaphor(?) for being slapped in the face...
> as in "WAKE UP!!!" and I repeat it every time signals are discussed or
> practiced in flight. So far so good....
>
> Curt Lewis - 95
> Genesis 2
> CFIG
>
> On Oct 11, 2:02 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
>> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
>> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
>> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
>> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
>> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
>> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
>> understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
>> something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
>> signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
>> releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
>> if something is wrong with the tow plane.
>> I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
>> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
>> the rudder signal!
>> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
>> the glider is at least 200
>> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
>> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
>> the rudder or rocking the wings)
>> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
>> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
>> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>>
>> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>>
>> Ramy
>

[Ramy]

Marc Ramsey wrote:
> > 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> > the rudder signal!
>
> There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
> radios, including at least one that you visit.

There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200
handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one.

>
> > 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> > the glider is at least 200
> > feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
>
> I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not
> in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at
> above pattern altitude.

Agree.

>
> > 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> > the rudder or rocking the wings)
> > the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> > In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> > signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>
> No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look
> around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases
> you'll end up with the rope heading your way.
>

It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the
situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself,
it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release
is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common,
and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such.


> > I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>
> Likewise.
>
> Marc

Ramy

[Marc Ramsey]

Ramy wrote:
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>>> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
>>> the rudder signal!
>> There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
>> radios, including at least one that you visit.
>
> There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200
> handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one.

I suggest you bring this up next time you visit someplace like Williams.
I'm sure the response will be rather amusing...

[Ken Ward]

In article . com>,
"Ramy" > wrote:

> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
> understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
> something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
> signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
> releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
> if something is wrong with the tow plane.
> I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> the rudder signal!
> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> the glider is at least 200
> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> the rudder or rocking the wings)
> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>
> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>
> Ramy

It might be that there was a spoiler malfunction. I think there was a
crash during a landing at Truckee where the spoilers on a G103 were
opened as a test, but then because of wear in the mechanism, they went
into a configuration where they couldn't be retracted.

There could have been a medical event, or a medical event combined with
an equipment malfunction, leaving a student to make a critical decision.

As usual, this is just speculation until an investigation is performed.

Still, I'm very sad to hear about Joe. He made a better pilot out of
me, when I was a student. For one thing, I learned to politely decline
if he offered me half of his pickle sandwich, which was his way of
rewarding good flying. Talk about spicy!!

Ken

[Phil Jeffery]

Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held
radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate
due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered
aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control
column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching
a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's
PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can
only be the rudder wiggle.


"Ramy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Marc Ramsey wrote:
>> > 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
>> > the rudder signal!
>>
>> There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
>> radios, including at least one that you visit.
>
> There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200
> handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one.
>
>>
>> > 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
>> > the glider is at least 200
>> > feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
>>
>> I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not
>> in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at
>> above pattern altitude.
>
> Agree.
>
>>
>> > 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
>> > the rudder or rocking the wings)
>> > the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
>> > In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
>> > signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>>
>> No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look
>> around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases
>> you'll end up with the rope heading your way.
>>
>
> It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the
> situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself,
> it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release
> is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common,
> and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such.
>
>
>> > I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>>
>> Likewise.
>>
>> Marc
>
> Ramy
>

[Ramy]

Ok, Ok, I stand corrected. Still, no excuse for no panel radio in a tug
IMHO.

Ramy

Phil Jeffery wrote:
> Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held
> radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate
> due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered
> aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control
> column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching
> a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's
> PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can
> only be the rudder wiggle.
>
>
> "Ramy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> >
> > Marc Ramsey wrote:
> >> > 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> >> > the rudder signal!
> >>
> >> There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
> >> radios, including at least one that you visit.
> >
> > There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200
> > handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one.
> >
> >>
> >> > 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> >> > the glider is at least 200
> >> > feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> >>
> >> I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not
> >> in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at
> >> above pattern altitude.
> >
> > Agree.
> >
> >>
> >> > 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> >> > the rudder or rocking the wings)
> >> > the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> >> > In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> >> > signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
> >>
> >> No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look
> >> around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases
> >> you'll end up with the rope heading your way.
> >>
> >
> > It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the
> > situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself,
> > it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release
> > is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common,
> > and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such.
> >
> >
> >> > I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
> >>
> >> Likewise.
> >>
> >> Marc
> >
> > Ramy
> >

[Tony[_1_]]

well gee, dont ya think that maybe the answer to this is to actually
learn the signals? apparently the towpilot took the time to learn the
standard signals, the least the pilot could do is return the favor.

As a towpilot, if i see airbrakes are out, but we are still climbing,
im not going to give the signal until i know you can make it back to
the airport. Ive heard too many of these stories. If we arent
climbing and are low, you are on your own, goodbye. if we are high but
not climbing you get the signal and i hope you figure it out.

also, for me, the biggest danger below 200 feet or so is not the
throttle slipping back. it is that you didnt hook up your elevator
right or something silly like that. I dont feel like getting taken out
with you so once the throttle is full, engine gauges checked,
everything normal, my hand is near the release ready to let you go.
Occasionally i come back to the throttle to double check it is at full,
which it always is. As we get higher and i have more time to recover
from the upset you cause while programming your geewhizbang palm
thingymajob then i go back to the throttle and mixture more,
controlling CHTs and all that stuff.


Ramy wrote:
> Ok, Ok, I stand corrected. Still, no excuse for no panel radio in a tug
> IMHO.
>
> Ramy
>
> Phil Jeffery wrote:
> > Do not expect any tug pilot with a normal life expectancy to use a hand-held
> > radio whilst anywhere near the ground especially with a reduced climb rate
> > due to deployed glider airbrakes. Ramy, obviously you don't fly powered
> > aircraft or you would know that one hand should be on the stick/control
> > column and the other ensuring the throttle stays full forward until reaching
> > a respectable altitude. If the tug pilot is wearing a head-set and there's
> > PTT on the stick by all means give a radio call but without these it can
> > only be the rudder wiggle.
> >
> >
> > "Ramy" > wrote in message
> > oups.com...
> > >
> > > Marc Ramsey wrote:
> > >> > 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> > >> > the rudder signal!
> > >>
> > >> There are plenty of places where some tow planes lack functioning
> > >> radios, including at least one that you visit.
> > >
> > > There is absolutly no excuse for this. The tow pilot can use a $200
> > > handheld if the tow plane is not equiped with one.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> > 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> > >> > the glider is at least 200
> > >> > feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> > >>
> > >> I'd go a bit farther and say that if the tow plane is climbing and not
> > >> in danger, it would be preferable to make the signal over the airport at
> > >> above pattern altitude.
> > >
> > > Agree.
> > >
> > >>
> > >> > 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> > >> > the rudder or rocking the wings)
> > >> > the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> > >> > In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> > >> > signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
> > >>
> > >> No, rocking the wings means release right *now*, not after you look
> > >> around and consider what is wrong. If you hesitate, in many cases
> > >> you'll end up with the rope heading your way.
> > >>
> > >
> > > It takes less then a second to look at the spoiler, but if the
> > > situation is so urgent then the tow pilot can release the rope himself,
> > > it shouldn't make much difference. But how often an immediate release
> > > is required vs open spoilers? I think the later is much more common,
> > > and as such, it would be statistcally better to treat it as such.
> > >
> > >
> > >> > I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
> > >>
> > >> Likewise.
> > >>
> > >> Marc
> > >
> > > Ramy
> > >

[Burt Compton - Marfa]

Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
Checkride!

CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
closed and locked."

Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
www.soaringsafety.org


Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
view):

Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
airbrakes.

IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
towpilot is aware of this.

Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".

Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."

If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
completed.

Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!

Burt CFIG / DPE
Marfa Gliders west Texas
www.flygliders.com

[BT]

how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag at
200ft AGL..
and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a previous
lesson of course..

and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start a
gradual descent?

so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave off..
the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me to
get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all appears
well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things did
not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be ready
for something.

BT

"CLewis95" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Ramy,
>
> I feel it is almost certain more accidents will occur in the confusion
> of these important tow signals. I agree with you that it would be best
> for the tow pilot to try the radio first if the "situation" allows for
> it.
>
> In an effort to help students keeps these signals straight ... I teach
> the rudder wag as a visual metaphor(?) for being slapped in the face...
> as in "WAKE UP!!!" and I repeat it every time signals are discussed or
> practiced in flight. So far so good....
>
> Curt Lewis - 95
> Genesis 2
> CFIG
>
> On Oct 11, 2:02 pm, "Ramy" > wrote:
>> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
>> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
>> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
>> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
>> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
>> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
>> understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
>> something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
>> signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
>> releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
>> if something is wrong with the tow plane.
>> I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
>> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
>> the rudder signal!
>> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
>> the glider is at least 200
>> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
>> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
>> the rudder or rocking the wings)
>> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
>> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
>> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>>
>> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>>
>> Ramy
>

[BT]

where and when?

"Ramy" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
> misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
> written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
> and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
> experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
> the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
> understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
> something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
> signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
> releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
> if something is wrong with the tow plane.
> I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
> 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> the rudder signal!
> 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> the glider is at least 200
> feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> the rudder or rocking the wings)
> the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
>
> I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
>
> Ramy
>

[Ramy]

All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to
the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
I'm sure this has happened before.

Ramy


Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
> Checkride!
>
> CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
> closed and locked."
>
> Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
> airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
> Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
> www.soaringsafety.org
>
>
> Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
> view):
>
> Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
> airbrakes.
>
> IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
> aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
> towpilot is aware of this.
>
> Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
>
> Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
> your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
>
> If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
>
> No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
> it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
> completed.
>
> Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
> 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
> pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
> ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
> remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!
>
> Burt CFIG / DPE
> Marfa Gliders west Texas
> www.flygliders.com

[Ramy]

http://www.ntsb.gov/NTSB/brief.asp?ev_id=20060923X01379&key=1

The instructor passed away after a month or so later and it may not be
directly related to the accident injuries, and of course we should not
jump to any conclusion how and why it happened, but I think we can all
learn from it and try to prevent something similar from happening
again.
I myself always look at my spoilers whenever I feel that the tow plane
is not climbing as well as I would expect, usually happens after I was
towing at sea level for a while...

Ramy


BT wrote:
> where and when?
>
> "Ramy" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > There had been yet another fatality recently as a result of
> > misinterpreting the open spoilers signal. True we all passed the
> > written test and know that wiggeling the rudder means check spoilers
> > and rocking the wings means release, yet so many students and
> > experienced pilots alike continiue to confuse this signal and releasing
> > the tow rope instead, often resulting in accidents. It is not hard to
> > understand why: The tow plane barely climb, the glider pilot suspects
> > something must be wrong with the tow plane, then he/she sees the rudder
> > signal which confirms his thought that something is wrong, then
> > releases the tow rope in panic, since this is what we were taught to do
> > if something is wrong with the tow plane.
> > I think that there is a relatively simple solution for this:
> > 1 - If radio is available (and it always should) - use it instead of
> > the rudder signal!
> > 2 - If this doesn't doesn't work, the signal should be avoided until
> > the glider is at least 200
> > feet, unless of course, the tow plane is in immediate danger.
> > 3 - If the glider pilot sees the tow plane signaling something (wigling
> > the rudder or rocking the wings)
> > the FIRST look at the spoilers, then release the tow rope if necessary.
> > In this case, the pilot will do the correct action regardless of the
> > signal. I think this is what needs to be taught.
> >
> > I am not an instructor myself, so this is just my humble opinion...
> >
> > Ramy
> >

[Tony[_1_]]

My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.

the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not
because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and
then get off.
you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of
rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine
problem, first thing is to pull the red handle.
Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.

Ramy wrote:
> All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
> human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to
> the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
> could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
> tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
> is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
> cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
> I'm sure this has happened before.
>
> Ramy
>
>
> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
> > Checkride!
> >
> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
> > closed and locked."
> >
> > Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
> > airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
> > Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
> > www.soaringsafety.org
> >
> >
> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
> > view):
> >
> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
> > airbrakes.
> >
> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
> > towpilot is aware of this.
> >
> > Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
> >
> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
> >
> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
> >
> > No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
> > it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
> > completed.
> >
> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
> > 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
> > pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
> > ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
> > remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!
> >
> > Burt CFIG / DPE
> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
> > www.flygliders.com

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Tony wrote:
> Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
> we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
> kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.

That's a point I hadn't thought about before. In remembering the few
times I was rocked off in training, I can't tell you if the tow pilot
rocked quickly from 30 degrees to 30 degrees, more slowly doing 45/45,
or whatever.

I *have* seen tow planes upset enough on tow (either wave season towing
out of Minden or summer thermals in the great basin) that I thought
"this could be a rock-off but I better wait and see..."

Back at sea level, I think it's quite a bit more clear.

Jeremy

[BT]

you get one wing rock..
if I really need you gone and you dealy
you will be holding the rope..

BT

"Tony" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.
>
> the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not
> because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and
> then get off.
> you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of
> rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine
> problem, first thing is to pull the red handle.
> Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
> we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
> kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.
>
> Ramy wrote:
>> All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
>> human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to
>> the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
>> could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
>> tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
>> is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
>> cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
>> I'm sure this has happened before.
>>
>> Ramy
>>
>>
>> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
>> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
>> > Checkride!
>> >
>> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
>> > closed and locked."
>> >
>> > Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
>> > airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
>> > Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
>> > www.soaringsafety.org
>> >
>> >
>> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
>> > view):
>> >
>> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
>> > airbrakes.
>> >
>> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
>> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
>> > towpilot is aware of this.
>> >
>> > Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
>> >
>> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
>> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
>> >
>> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
>> >
>> > No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
>> > it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
>> > completed.
>> >
>> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
>> > 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
>> > pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
>> > ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
>> > remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!
>> >
>> > Burt CFIG / DPE
>> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
>> > www.flygliders.com
>

[Ramy]

Fair enough, all I am saying is that I would recommend a quick glimpse
at the spoiler first (it really shouldn't take that long), so if I get
the rope, at least my spoilers are closed and I have a better chance to
make it back to the airport...

Ramy

BT wrote:
> you get one wing rock..
> if I really need you gone and you dealy
> you will be holding the rope..
>
> BT
>
> "Tony" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.
> >
> > the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not
> > because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and
> > then get off.
> > you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of
> > rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine
> > problem, first thing is to pull the red handle.
> > Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
> > we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
> > kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.
> >
> > Ramy wrote:
> >> All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
> >> human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment to
> >> the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
> >> could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
> >> tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
> >> is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
> >> cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
> >> I'm sure this has happened before.
> >>
> >> Ramy
> >>
> >>
> >> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> >> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
> >> > Checkride!
> >> >
> >> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
> >> > closed and locked."
> >> >
> >> > Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
> >> > airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring SAfety
> >> > Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
> >> > www.soaringsafety.org
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
> >> > view):
> >> >
> >> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
> >> > airbrakes.
> >> >
> >> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
> >> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
> >> > towpilot is aware of this.
> >> >
> >> > Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
> >> >
> >> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
> >> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
> >> >
> >> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
> >> >
> >> > No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or "know
> >> > it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
> >> > completed.
> >> >
> >> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used up
> >> > 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
> >> > pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there" like a
> >> > ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
> >> > remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!
> >> >
> >> > Burt CFIG / DPE
> >> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
> >> > www.flygliders.com
> >

[BT]

fair enough ramy..
but if I need you off tow.. its a wing rock and a radio call
if your problem is spoilers.. that I can see.. then its a rudder waggle and
radio call
and most likely.. if we have gotten this far into the air.. there is no need
to feed you the rope..
we don't have hills or powerlines in the way
as long as I can get you back over the top of the airport...
or in a position to make a suitable pattern with your spoilers stuck open

BT
(I do fly both ends of the rope)

"Ramy" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Fair enough, all I am saying is that I would recommend a quick glimpse
> at the spoiler first (it really shouldn't take that long), so if I get
> the rope, at least my spoilers are closed and I have a better chance to
> make it back to the airport...
>
> Ramy
>
> BT wrote:
>> you get one wing rock..
>> if I really need you gone and you dealy
>> you will be holding the rope..
>>
>> BT
>>
>> "Tony" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>> > My sentiments seem to echo Burts because he taught me to tow.
>> >
>> > the towpilot rocks the wings cause you need to get off now, not
>> > because you need to fiddle with a couple handles, pick your nose, and
>> > then get off.
>> > you should be happy that your towpilot gives you the courtesy of
>> > rocking the wings. If I in the towplane am experiencing an engine
>> > problem, first thing is to pull the red handle.
>> > Im not sure what kind of turbulence you are flying in, but the thermals
>> > we have here will not come anywhere close to mimicking a wing rock. my
>> > kind of wing rock is +/- 30 degrees of bank rapidly.
>> >
>> > Ramy wrote:
>> >> All good advises from Burt and Tony, but since we are all human, and
>> >> human makes human mistakes, wouldn't you all agree that an amendment
>> >> to
>> >> the "wing rocking" signal to first check airbrakes and then release
>> >> could save lives? It can take 5-10 seconds before recognizing that the
>> >> tow plane is rocking the wings and not just hitting turbulance, which
>> >> is plenty of time to take a quick look at the spoiler. This will also
>> >> cover the case where the tow pilot gives the wrong signal by mistake,
>> >> I'm sure this has happened before.
>> >>
>> >> Ramy
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
>> >> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
>> >> > Checkride!
>> >> >
>> >> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes
>> >> > (spoilers)
>> >> > closed and locked."
>> >> >
>> >> > Left hand in a fist - behind the airbrake handle may alert you that
>> >> > airbrakes are creeping open. The free video from the Soaring
>> >> > SAfety
>> >> > Foundation has a good segment on signals and checklists. Order from
>> >> > www.soaringsafety.org
>> >> >
>> >> >
>> >> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point
>> >> > of
>> >> > view):
>> >> >
>> >> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
>> >> > airbrakes.
>> >> >
>> >> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
>> >> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
>> >> > towpilot is aware of this.
>> >> >
>> >> > Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and
>> >> > locked".
>> >> >
>> >> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot
>> >> > "understand
>> >> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
>> >> >
>> >> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
>> >> >
>> >> > No one gets a tow without a "Marfa Aerotow Briefing". Casual or
>> >> > "know
>> >> > it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
>> >> > completed.
>> >> >
>> >> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way. This cat has used
>> >> > up
>> >> > 8 of my 9 lives over the past 39 years towing gliders. Many glider
>> >> > pilots view the tow as a means to an end- "just get me up there"
>> >> > like a
>> >> > ski lift operator. Do the checklists, follow the procedures, and
>> >> > remember the "joy of soaring"starts after you release!
>> >> >
>> >> > Burt CFIG / DPE
>> >> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
>> >> > www.flygliders.com
>> >
>

[Andy[_1_]]

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> Casual or "know
> it all" glider pilots are refused a tow unless our procedures are
> completed.

I assume you never tow at contests.


Andy

[Papa3]

BT wrote:
> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag at
> 200ft AGL..
> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a previous
> lesson of course..
>
> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start a
> gradual descent?
>
> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave off..
> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me to
> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all appears
> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things did
> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be ready
> for something.
>
> BT

BT,

I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
This is unacceptable.

Three that I always do:

- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.

- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
release or b) ask me "what's he doing."

- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
through this, though we do have the discussion.

Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.

Erik Mann
LS8-18 (P3)

[[email protected]]

Papa3 wrote:
> BT wrote:
> > how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag at
> > 200ft AGL..
> > and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a previous
> > lesson of course..
> >
> > and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
> > and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start a
> > gradual descent?
> >
> > so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
> > briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave off..
> > the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
> > pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me to
> > get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all appears
> > well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things did
> > not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be ready
> > for something.
> >
> > BT
>
> BT,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
> This is unacceptable.
>
> Three that I always do:
>
> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>
> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>
> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>
> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>
> Erik Mann
> LS8-18 (P3)

This is very interesting subject....preflight check? Brakes closed and
locked? Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
off in flapped gliders with negative flaps? Now imagine combination of
negative flaps and open brakes right on the take off. Isn't that a
recipe for disaster? How often ? I don't know exact number but I see it
very frequently. And the most amazing part of that is that the
instructors are teaching it this way. When I asked about it, I never
got a straight answer but everybody is saying "it must be done that
way". O really?

Jacek
CFI-G
Washington State

[KM]

Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
> Checkride!
>
> CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
> closed and locked."

Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.

>
>
> Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
> view):

Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.

> Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
> airbrakes.
>
> IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
> aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
> towpilot is aware of this.
>
> Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
>
> Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
> your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
>
> If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.

This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
much better habit pattern.


> Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.

No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
the tow planes signals.
>
> Burt CFIG / DPE
> Marfa Gliders west Texas
K Urban

[KM]

> Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
> pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
> achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
> off in flapped gliders with negative flaps?

Jacek, you have to make a distinction here between "taking off" and
starting the take off roll.To answer your question, I would say that
most pilots, when operating an older ship with a CG hook in a crosswind
will use spoilers or negative flap until they get some roll
authority.Another thing to consider is with ships like the ASW20 the
ailerons droop and rise with the flaps.This makes a HUGE difference on
the roll control at slow speeds.It is spelled out in the P.O.H. and
therefore it is considered normal operating procedure.

> Isn't that a
> recipe for disaster? How often ? I don't know exact number but I see it
> very frequently. And the most amazing part of that is that the
> instructors are teaching it this way.

Instructors are required to teach compliance with the POH, so I would
say this is perfectly normal.

When I asked about it, I never
> got a straight answer but everybody is saying "it must be done that
> way". O really?
>
> Jacek
> CFI-G
> Washington State

[Ramy]

Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good advises, but
still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion, which keeps
happening over and over again and occasionly cost life, it to amend the
standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse at the spoiler
handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most cases it will be
easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle position. No need
to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then it is another
serious problem.

Ramy

KM wrote:
> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once on your FAA
> > Checkride!
> >
> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes "airbrakes (spoilers)
> > closed and locked."
>
> Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had in mind on this
> thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and not the use of
> checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses a checklist he or she
> will never have a tow emergency?The "airbrakes closed and locked" runs
> contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting the take off
> roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I will
> readily admit that it works great when towing trainers though.
>
> >
> >
> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the towpilot's point of
> > view):
>
> Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about aileron authority.
>
> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot closes and locks
> > airbrakes.
> >
> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff for better
> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew confirms the
> > towpilot is aware of this.
> >
> > Glider pilot radios towpilot "canopy and airbrakes closed and locked".
> >
> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider pilot "understand
> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked."
> >
> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
>
> This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the procedure differs
> when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One of the three local
> tow operations used this procedure but then altered it by using the
> phraseology of "Canopy locked, controls checked" meaning 1;a positive
> control check has been acomplished by the line person who hooked you
> up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration for initiating
> the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot does not have to
> anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I think it sets up a
> much better habit pattern.
>
>
> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.
>
> No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that conflicts with the
> POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an excellent idea to
> look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion what so ever with
> the tow planes signals.
> >
> > Burt CFIG / DPE
> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
> K Urban

[Nyal Williams]

Nothing will take the place of really learning and
understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
and testing for them on every BFR.

If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
what it is.


At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
>Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
>advises, but
>still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
>which keeps
>happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
>it to amend the
>standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
>at the spoiler
>handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
>cases it will be
>easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
>position. No need
>to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
>it is another
>serious problem.
>
>Ramy
>
>KM wrote:
>> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
>> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
>>>on your FAA
>> > Checkride!
>> >
>> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
>>>'airbrakes (spoilers)
>> > closed and locked.'
>>
>> Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
>>in mind on this
>> thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
>>not the use of
>> checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
>>a checklist he or she
>> will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
>>and locked' runs
>> contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
>>the take off
>> roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
>>will
>> readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
>>though.
>>
>> >
>> >
>> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
>>>towpilot's point of
>> > view):
>>
>> Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
>>aileron authority.
>>
>> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
>>>closes and locks
>> > airbrakes.
>> >
>> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
>>>for better
>> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
>>>confirms the
>> > towpilot is aware of this.
>> >
>> > Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
>>>closed and locked'.
>> >
>> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
>>>pilot 'understand
>> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'
>> >
>> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
>>
>> This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
>>procedure differs
>> when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
>>of the three local
>> tow operations used this procedure but then altered
>>it by using the
>> phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
>>1;a positive
>> control check has been acomplished by the line person
>>who hooked you
>> up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
>>for initiating
>> the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
>>does not have to
>> anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
>>think it sets up a
>> much better habit pattern.
>>
>>
>> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.
>>
>> No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
>>conflicts with the
>> POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
>>excellent idea to
>> look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
>>what so ever with
>> the tow planes signals.
>> >
>> > Burt CFIG / DPE
>> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
>> K Urban
>
>

[Ramy]

But what if the tow pilot give the wrong signal? Or what if the tow
pilot had difficult climbing, did not realize the glider spoilers are
open (no mirrors) and rocked the wings instead of wigeling the rudder?
My suggestion to take a quick glimpse at the spoiler before releasing
will solve this scenario as well. Tow pilots can make mistakes as well,
especially if they did not practice the signal often. I had quiet a few
cases where I radioed to the tow pilots to turn towards 1 or 2 o'clock
and instead they turned towards 11 or 10 o'clock... (I know we all wear
digital watches these days ;-)
One quick glimpse at the spoiler before pulling the release will not
hurt anyone and only can save lives. The pilot in the accident
mentioned may have cleared the wires if he closed the spoilers first.

Ramy

Nyal Williams wrote:
> Nothing will take the place of really learning and
> understanding the signals, reviewing them regularly
> and testing for them on every BFR.
>
> If every tow pilot gave the rudder wag on every tenth
> tow, pilots would begin to recognize this signal for
> what it is.
>
>
> At 19:31 12 October 2006, Ramy wrote:
> >Yes, this is exactly my point. All posters have good
> >advises, but
> >still, the only way to prevent this kind of confusion,
> >which keeps
> >happening over and over again and occasionly cost life,
> >it to amend the
> >standard procedure for tow signals to first glimpse
> >at the spoiler
> >handle, or better yet, at the spoiler itself, in most
> >cases it will be
> >easier and quicker then looking at the exact handle
> >position. No need
> >to look at both spoilers. If only one is open then
> >it is another
> >serious problem.
> >
> >Ramy
> >
> >KM wrote:
> >> Burt Compton - Marfa wrote:
> >> > Us a pretakeoff checklist - just like you did once
> >>>on your FAA
> >> > Checkride!
> >> >
> >> > CBSIFTCBE works - or any checklist that includes
> >>>'airbrakes (spoilers)
> >> > closed and locked.'
> >>
> >> Burt, If I may jump in here.I think what Ramy had
> >>in mind on this
> >> thread was the misinterpretation of tow signals and
> >>not the use of
> >> checklists.Are you sugesting that if a pilot uses
> >>a checklist he or she
> >> will never have a tow emergency?The 'airbrakes closed
> >>and locked' runs
> >> contrary to some sailplane P.O.H.s that suggest starting
> >>the take off
> >> roll in something other than the final take off configuration.I
> >>will
> >> readily admit that it works great when towing trainers
> >>though.
> >>
> >> >
> >> >
> >> > Our procedure at Marfa, TX USA (developed from the
> >>>towpilot's point of
> >> > view):
> >>
> >> Obviously the tow pilot doesnt have to worry about
> >>aileron authority.
> >>
> >> > Ground crew refuses to hook up towrope until pilot
> >>>closes and locks
> >> > airbrakes.
> >> >
> >> > IF glider pilot wishes to use airbrakes open on takeoff
> >>>for better
> >> > aileron control with water ballast, then ground crew
> >>>confirms the
> >> > towpilot is aware of this.
> >> >
> >> > Glider pilot radios towpilot 'canopy and airbrakes
> >>>closed and locked'.
> >> >
> >> > Towpilot (just before takeoff) repeats back to glider
> >>>pilot 'understand
> >> > your canopy and airbrakes are closed and locked.'
> >> >
> >> > If you do not follow our procedures - we don't launch.
> >>
> >> This is a good idea but you fail to mention how the
> >>procedure differs
> >> when a pilot uses spoilers (Or negative flap).One
> >>of the three local
> >> tow operations used this procedure but then altered
> >>it by using the
> >> phraseology of 'Canopy locked, controls checked' meaning
> >>1;a positive
> >> control check has been acomplished by the line person
> >>who hooked you
> >> up, and 2; The controls are in the proper configuration
> >>for initiating
> >> the take off (incuding the trim). This way a pilot
> >>does not have to
> >> anounce something over the radio that isnt right.I
> >>think it sets up a
> >> much better habit pattern.
> >>
> >>
> >> > Sorry but as your towpilot we gotta do it my way.
> >>
> >> No problem here, lets just not do it in a maner that
> >>conflicts with the
> >> POH.Getting back to Ramy's post, I think it is an
> >>excellent idea to
> >> look at the spoiler handle if there is any confusion
> >>what so ever with
> >> the tow planes signals.
> >> >
> >> > Burt CFIG / DPE
> >> > Marfa Gliders west Texas
> >> K Urban
> >
> >

[BT]

Papa3.. I like your third one..

now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land straight
ahead.

We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the tow
is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel beyond
the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can pull the
rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi way).. a good
student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it roll to the end
so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite direction. I've had
other students looking for a place to go and I've had to take over.

Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow is
airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to land...
your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft of good
landable grading beside the runway, whole length.

BT

"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> BT wrote:
>> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder wag
>> at
>> 200ft AGL..
>> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>> previous
>> lesson of course..
>>
>> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
>> a
>> gradual descent?
>>
>> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>> off..
>> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
>> to
>> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>> appears
>> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>> did
>> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>> ready
>> for something.
>>
>> BT
>
> BT,
>
> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
> This is unacceptable.
>
> Three that I always do:
>
> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>
> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>
> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>
> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>
> Erik Mann
> LS8-18 (P3)
>

[Bill Daniels]

What about tow plane aborts on the runway?

I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.

Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
training.

Bill Daniels


"BT" > wrote in message
news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
> Papa3.. I like your third one..
>
> now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
> just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
> but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
> straight ahead.
>
> We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
> tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
> beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
> pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
> way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
> roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
> direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
> to take over.
>
> Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
> is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
> land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
> of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>
> BT
>
> "Papa3" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>>
>> BT wrote:
>>> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>> wag at
>>> 200ft AGL..
>>> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>> previous
>>> lesson of course..
>>>
>>> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
>>> a
>>> gradual descent?
>>>
>>> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>> off..
>>> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
>>> to
>>> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>> appears
>>> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>> did
>>> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>> ready
>>> for something.
>>>
>>> BT
>>
>> BT,
>>
>> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>> This is unacceptable.
>>
>> Three that I always do:
>>
>> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>
>> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>
>> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>
>> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>
>> Erik Mann
>> LS8-18 (P3)
>>
>
>

[Jack[_4_]]

I don't fly both ends of the rope, but it seems to me that we at the
trailing end have fewer adverse effects that can be caused by the pilot
at the other end. In other words, we could cause the tug pilot more
problems that he can cause us. The two times I've been waved off, there
was no mistake about what was intended. To solve the spoiler open
thing... I just fly ships that don't have them (yukin' it up, here)...
Seriously, know and use the signal. Someone posted that there's no
excuse for not having a $200- portable... There's no excuse for not
knowing these important signals. Radios are great but... Radios DO
malfunction... Transmissions DO get walked on... And... you don't get
too much for $200- in a portable. That being the opinion of someone
that does radio for a living.

Jack Womack
PIK-20B N77MA (TE)

[BT]

good point Bill.. we do address runway aborts in our tuggy training..

normal release.. tug goes left.. glider goes right.
at our airport.. south bound departure.. tuggie goes left.. glider gets the
runway.. or normal departure
we do have a lot of room to the east of the paved runway..
same thing going north.. tuggie stays left (on runway).. glider goes right..
if tuggie can clear left between the taxiways to avoid culverts.. there is
room... glider has more room..

BUT DON"T JUST STOP ON THE RUNWAY... especially if you have been fast enough
to get the glider flying.. you are inviting a rear end collision.

Did not happen to us... but on our airport.. tuggie started moving.. stopped
within 50ft because his window popped open.. glider 2-32 in motion on tow..
no where to go.. another 2-32 parked waiting for the next tow, too close to
the runway.. glider in motion hits parked glider.. two dinged 2-32s

BT

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>
> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
> avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
> happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
> suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the
> tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the
> canopy.
>
> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
> if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
> to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
> abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
> pilot training.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>> Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>
>> now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>> just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
>> way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>> straight ahead.
>>
>> We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>> tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>> beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>> pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>> way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
>> it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>> direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
>> to take over.
>>
>> Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
>> is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
>> land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
>> 150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>
>> BT
>>
>> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> BT wrote:
>>>> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>> wag at
>>>> 200ft AGL..
>>>> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>> previous
>>>> lesson of course..
>>>>
>>>> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>>> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
>>>> start a
>>>> gradual descent?
>>>>
>>>> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>>> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>> off..
>>>> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>>> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
>>>> me to
>>>> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>> appears
>>>> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>>> did
>>>> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>> ready
>>>> for something.
>>>>
>>>> BT
>>>
>>> BT,
>>>
>>> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>
>>> Three that I always do:
>>>
>>> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>
>>> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>
>>> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>
>>> Erik Mann
>>> LS8-18 (P3)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Andreas Maurer[_1_]]

On 12 Oct 2006 08:53:26 -0700, wrote:


>Now, this leads me to another point of this subject...how many
>pilots are taking off with their brakes open because it "helps them
>achieve faster aileron response" ? And then how many pilots are taking
>off in flapped gliders with negative flaps? Now imagine combination of
>negative flaps and open brakes right on the take off. Isn't that a
>recipe for disaster?

Nope.

I do it always this way - because the glider I fly (AS22-2) has an
aileron authority of precisely nil if the airbrakes are not opened and
the wind is less than 15 miles exactly from the front.

Pretty complex since aileron authority starts late and therefore the
flaps have to be kept extended till about 30 kts, immediately followed
by a very smooth move from negativ to neutral flaps.

Some gliders simply require this... unfortunately.

For the ones who wonder: The ASH-25 has a lot better aileron authority
during the first phase of the aerotow.


Bye
Andreas

[Chris Reed[_1_]]

I had exactly this happen to me, but on a runway too narrow to land
either side. It's remarkable how fast the mind can work, as I had time
to think:

1. Can I land and stop before hitting tug - no.

2. Can I go over the top of tug - no.

3. So it's go to the left (marginally more room), which leaves me
directly in line for the fuel bowser - worry about that once I'm past
the tug.

I flew 3, but there was standing crop to the left which I caught with
the wingtip. Result - a perfect 180 in mid-air and a backwards landing
with no damage to aircraft or crew. Interestingly, there's almost no
ground run on a backwards landing, so we never got near the fuel bowser.

Not sure I could repeat this successfully, and would rather not have to
attempt it.


Bill Daniels wrote:
> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>
> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
> hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
> another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
> decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
> left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.
>
> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
> the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
> left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
> that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
> training.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>
>>Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>
>>now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>>just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
>>but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>>straight ahead.
>>
>>We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>>tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>>beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>>pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>>way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
>>roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>>direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
>>to take over.
>>
>>Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
>>is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
>>land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
>>of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>
>>BT
>>
>>"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>>>BT wrote:
>>>
>>>>how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>>wag at
>>>>200ft AGL..
>>>>and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>>previous
>>>>lesson of course..
>>>>
>>>>and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>>>and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
>>>>a
>>>>gradual descent?
>>>>
>>>>so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>>>briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>>off..
>>>>the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>>>pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
>>>>to
>>>>get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>>appears
>>>>well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>>>did
>>>>not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>>ready
>>>>for something.
>>>>
>>>>BT
>>>
>>>BT,
>>>
>>>I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>>the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>>This is unacceptable.
>>>
>>>Three that I always do:
>>>
>>>- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>>due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>>500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>>might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>>the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>>student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>>we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>>20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>>time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>>finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>>enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>
>>>- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>>glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>>release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>
>>>- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>>I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>>will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>>marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>>the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>>student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>>ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>>b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>>forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>>whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>>Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>>towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>>traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>>through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>
>>>Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>>other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>
>>>Erik Mann
>>>LS8-18 (P3)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Bruce Greef]

I doubt it is common, but it does happen. Recent incident - Glider 5-10" AGL, on
the downhill section of runway, when Supecub deposits hot oily bits all over the
windshield. Tuggy has hands full just getting the whole plot on the ground with
the wings on top. ASW22 full of water behind has some excitement avoiding the
suddenly stopping tug, release the rope and land parallel to the tug.

Good thing it was two very experienced pilots, and that both were paying
attention. You can't make the assumption that the tug will be able to continue
the tow, or be able to see to clear the runway, or have a hand free to pull the
red handle.



Bill Daniels wrote:
> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>
> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
> hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
> another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
> decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
> left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.
>
> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
> the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
> left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
> that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
> training.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>
>>Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>
>>now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>>just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
>>but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>>straight ahead.
>>
>>We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>>tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>>beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>>pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>>way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
>>roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>>direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
>>to take over.
>>
>>Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
>>is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
>>land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
>>of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>
>>BT
>>
>>"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>
>>>BT wrote:
>>>
>>>>how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>>wag at
>>>>200ft AGL..
>>>>and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>>previous
>>>>lesson of course..
>>>>
>>>>and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>>>and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
>>>>a
>>>>gradual descent?
>>>>
>>>>so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>>>briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>>off..
>>>>the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>>>pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
>>>>to
>>>>get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>>appears
>>>>well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>>>did
>>>>not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>>ready
>>>>for something.
>>>>
>>>>BT
>>>
>>>BT,
>>>
>>>I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>>the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>>This is unacceptable.
>>>
>>>Three that I always do:
>>>
>>>- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>>due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>>500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>>might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>>the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>>student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>>we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>>20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>>time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>>finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>>enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>
>>>- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>>glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>>release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>
>>>- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>>I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>>will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>>marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>>the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>>student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>>ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>>b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>>forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>>whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>>Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>>towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>>traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>>through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>
>>>Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>>other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>
>>>Erik Mann
>>>LS8-18 (P3)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Bill Daniels]

Actually, since posting the note last evening, I now have 6 e-mails
describing simular runway aborts - all within the last year. Apparently
it's not all that uncommon.

Be careful out there.

Bill Daniels


"Bruce Greef" > wrote in message
...
>I doubt it is common, but it does happen. Recent incident - Glider 5-10"
>AGL, on the downhill section of runway, when Supecub deposits hot oily bits
>all over the windshield. Tuggy has hands full just getting the whole plot
>on the ground with the wings on top. ASW22 full of water behind has some
>excitement avoiding the suddenly stopping tug, release the rope and land
>parallel to the tug.
>
> Good thing it was two very experienced pilots, and that both were paying
> attention. You can't make the assumption that the tug will be able to
> continue the tow, or be able to see to clear the runway, or have a hand
> free to pull the red handle.
>
>
>
> Bill Daniels wrote:
>> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>>
>> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
>> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
>> avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
>> happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
>> suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case,
>> the tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto
>> the canopy.
>>
>> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
>> if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
>> to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
>> abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
>> pilot training.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>> "BT" > wrote in message
>> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>>
>>>Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>>
>>>now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>>>just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
>>>way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>>>straight ahead.
>>>
>>>We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>>>tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>>>beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>>>pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>>>way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
>>>it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>>>direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
>>>to take over.
>>>
>>>Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
>>>is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
>>>land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
>>>150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>>
>>>BT
>>>
>>>"Papa3" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>>>
>>>>BT wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>>>wag at
>>>>>200ft AGL..
>>>>>and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>>>previous
>>>>>lesson of course..
>>>>>
>>>>>and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>>>>and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
>>>>>start a
>>>>>gradual descent?
>>>>>
>>>>>so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>>>>briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>>>off..
>>>>>the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>>>>pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
>>>>>me to
>>>>>get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>>>appears
>>>>>well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>>>>did
>>>>>not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>>>ready
>>>>>for something.
>>>>>
>>>>>BT
>>>>
>>>>BT,
>>>>
>>>>I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>>>the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>>>This is unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>>Three that I always do:
>>>>
>>>>- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>>>due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>>>500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>>>might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>>>the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>>>student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>>>we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>>>20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>>>time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>>>finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>>>enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>>
>>>>- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>>>glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>>>release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>>
>>>>- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>>>I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>>>will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>>>marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>>>the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>>>student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>>>ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>>>b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>>>forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>>>whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>>>Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>>>towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>>>traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>>>through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>>
>>>>Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>>>other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>>
>>>>Erik Mann
>>>>LS8-18 (P3)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>

[BB]

Our club has evolved what seems to me a very sensible strategy for
dealing with spoilers open and similar problems.

If the towpilot is not in trouble -- if the towplane is climbing and at
a safe altitude and position -- he/she will not wag the tail. If the
glider pilot's brain has faded enough that the spoilers are out, it's
clear the pilot is having reduced situational awareness, so adding the
task of interpreting a seldom-used emergency signal does risk being
misinterpreted. A low-altitude release with spoilers out will be
catastrophic, and if the tow is still safe, why risk it.

Instead, the tow pilot will try to raise the pilot on the radio. The
tow pilot will keep climbing, keep trying by radio, and bring the
glider directly over the field before trying a rudder waggle. All this
is in a written tow procedures document that eveyrone has to read and
is reviewed at checkouts and flight reviews.

As I think about it, it might be even better to have the tow pilot
level out at 1,800' over the field until the problem is resolved, to
help ensure the glider will not release with the spoilers still out and
the problem undiagnosed.

This does not mean we ignore standard signals, so don't start flaming
on this. They are there, and pilots and towpilots are all expected to
know them and use them if necessary. If the tow pilot is in any doubt
about the safety of continuing the tow with spoiler out, they can wag
to their hearts' content or take whatever other action is appropriate.
And we also brief wing runners to look for spoilers and canopies, and
pilots to do checklists, etc. etc.

John Cochrane BB

[SAM 303a]

Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down, angled left; I released,
angled a bit right and banged into a thermal that bounced me to about 80',
providing a little short field landing practice.
Here's the stupid part--my hand was on the divebrakes and I was about to
deploy them, but when the ship started rising I took my hand off! Something
in me said "dive brakes aren't used in thermals". I should have been on the
dive brakes immediately and never gotten as high as I did. It wasn't a big
deal, I didn't even use all of the glide slope control my dear Mosquito
offers. I did behave in a way I wouldn't have predicted--that got my
attention.

"Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
. ..
> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>
> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
> avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
> happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
> suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the
> tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the
> canopy.
>
> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
> if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
> to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
> abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
> pilot training.
>
> Bill Daniels
>
>
> "BT" > wrote in message
> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>> Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>
>> now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>> just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
>> way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>> straight ahead.
>>
>> We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>> tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>> beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>> pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>> way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
>> it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>> direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
>> to take over.
>>
>> Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
>> is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
>> land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
>> 150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>
>> BT
>>
>> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>> ups.com...
>>>
>>> BT wrote:
>>>> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>> wag at
>>>> 200ft AGL..
>>>> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>> previous
>>>> lesson of course..
>>>>
>>>> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
>>>> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
>>>> start a
>>>> gradual descent?
>>>>
>>>> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
>>>> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>> off..
>>>> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
>>>> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
>>>> me to
>>>> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>> appears
>>>> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
>>>> did
>>>> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>> ready
>>>> for something.
>>>>
>>>> BT
>>>
>>> BT,
>>>
>>> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>
>>> Three that I always do:
>>>
>>> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>
>>> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>
>>> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>
>>> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>
>>> Erik Mann
>>> LS8-18 (P3)
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Jeremy Zawodny]

SAM 303a wrote:
> Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
> Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
> window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down, angled left; I released,
> angled a bit right and banged into a thermal that bounced me to about 80',
> providing a little short field landing practice.
> Here's the stupid part--my hand was on the divebrakes and I was about to
> deploy them, but when the ship started rising I took my hand off! Something
> in me said "dive brakes aren't used in thermals".

If you had thermalled and climbed away, you'd be a true legend--maybe
even gone down in history has having taken the shortest successful (in
one sense) areotow in history.

But it's a good thing you didn't try that...

Jeremy

[Ramy]

We had an interesting incident few years ago in an aero retrieve
attempt. They attempted a tow on a slightly up hill and relatively
short dirt runway (should have towed the other way) with power lines at
the end of the runway. The tow plane could not get off the ground on
time and aborted the takeoff, the glider was already in the air, could
not stop before the tow plane and could not land in front of the tow
plane due to the power lines. Luckily he already had enough energy to
zoom up and executed a perfect 180 and landed safely on the nearby
field.

Ramy

Chris Reed wrote:
> I had exactly this happen to me, but on a runway too narrow to land
> either side. It's remarkable how fast the mind can work, as I had time
> to think:
>
> 1. Can I land and stop before hitting tug - no.
>
> 2. Can I go over the top of tug - no.
>
> 3. So it's go to the left (marginally more room), which leaves me
> directly in line for the fuel bowser - worry about that once I'm past
> the tug.
>
> I flew 3, but there was standing crop to the left which I caught with
> the wingtip. Result - a perfect 180 in mid-air and a backwards landing
> with no damage to aircraft or crew. Interestingly, there's almost no
> ground run on a backwards landing, so we never got near the fuel bowser.
>
> Not sure I could repeat this successfully, and would rather not have to
> attempt it.
>
>
> Bill Daniels wrote:
> > What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
> >
> > I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> > centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
> > hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
> > another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
> > decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
> > left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.
> >
> > Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
> > the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
> > left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
> > that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
> > training.
> >
> > Bill Daniels
> >
> >
> > "BT" > wrote in message
> > news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
> >
> >>Papa3.. I like your third one..
> >>
> >>now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
> >>just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
> >>but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
> >>straight ahead.
> >>
> >>We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
> >>tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
> >>beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
> >>pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
> >>way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
> >>roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
> >>direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
> >>to take over.
> >>
> >>Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
> >>is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
> >>land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
> >>of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
> >>
> >>BT
> >>
> >>"Papa3" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> >>
> >>>BT wrote:
> >>>
> >>>>how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
> >>>>wag at
> >>>>200ft AGL..
> >>>>and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
> >>>>previous
> >>>>lesson of course..
> >>>>
> >>>>and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
> >>>>and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
> >>>>a
> >>>>gradual descent?
> >>>>
> >>>>so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
> >>>>briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
> >>>>off..
> >>>>the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
> >>>>pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
> >>>>to
> >>>>get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
> >>>>appears
> >>>>well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
> >>>>did
> >>>>not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
> >>>>ready
> >>>>for something.
> >>>>
> >>>>BT
> >>>
> >>>BT,
> >>>
> >>>I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
> >>>the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
> >>>This is unacceptable.
> >>>
> >>>Three that I always do:
> >>>
> >>>- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
> >>>due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
> >>>500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
> >>>might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
> >>>the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
> >>>student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
> >>>we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
> >>>20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
> >>>time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
> >>>finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
> >>>enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
> >>>
> >>>- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
> >>>glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
> >>>release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
> >>>
> >>>- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
> >>>I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
> >>>will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
> >>>marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
> >>>the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
> >>>student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
> >>>ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
> >>>b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
> >>>forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
> >>>whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
> >>>Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
> >>>towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
> >>>traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
> >>>through this, though we do have the discussion.
> >>>
> >>>Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
> >>>other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
> >>>
> >>>Erik Mann
> >>>LS8-18 (P3)
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >
> >

[Tony[_1_]]

Bummer, i was waiting for something like:
"towplane and glider took forever to get airborne, but neither aborted
or released due to inadequate training, and the combination flew
unscathed underneath the power lines and climbed away as if nothing had
happened"

now THAT wouldve been exciting!

Ramy wrote:
> We had an interesting incident few years ago in an aero retrieve
> attempt. They attempted a tow on a slightly up hill and relatively
> short dirt runway (should have towed the other way) with power lines at
> the end of the runway. The tow plane could not get off the ground on
> time and aborted the takeoff, the glider was already in the air, could
> not stop before the tow plane and could not land in front of the tow
> plane due to the power lines. Luckily he already had enough energy to
> zoom up and executed a perfect 180 and landed safely on the nearby
> field.
>
> Ramy
>
> Chris Reed wrote:
> > I had exactly this happen to me, but on a runway too narrow to land
> > either side. It's remarkable how fast the mind can work, as I had time
> > to think:
> >
> > 1. Can I land and stop before hitting tug - no.
> >
> > 2. Can I go over the top of tug - no.
> >
> > 3. So it's go to the left (marginally more room), which leaves me
> > directly in line for the fuel bowser - worry about that once I'm past
> > the tug.
> >
> > I flew 3, but there was standing crop to the left which I caught with
> > the wingtip. Result - a perfect 180 in mid-air and a backwards landing
> > with no damage to aircraft or crew. Interestingly, there's almost no
> > ground run on a backwards landing, so we never got near the fuel bowser.
> >
> > Not sure I could repeat this successfully, and would rather not have to
> > attempt it.
> >
> >
> > Bill Daniels wrote:
> > > What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
> > >
> > > I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
> > > centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to avoid
> > > hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it happen to
> > > another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie suddenly
> > > decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case, the tuggie
> > > left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto the canopy.
> > >
> > > Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go if
> > > the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far to the
> > > left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an abort if
> > > that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow pilot
> > > training.
> > >
> > > Bill Daniels
> > >
> > >
> > > "BT" > wrote in message
> > > news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
> > >
> > >>Papa3.. I like your third one..
> > >>
> > >>now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
> > >>just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which way
> > >>but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
> > >>straight ahead.
> > >>
> > >>We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
> > >>tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
> > >>beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
> > >>pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
> > >>way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let it
> > >>roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
> > >>direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've had
> > >>to take over.
> > >>
> > >>Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the tow
> > >>is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try to
> > >>land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about 150ft
> > >>of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
> > >>
> > >>BT
> > >>
> > >>"Papa3" > wrote in message
> > ups.com...
> > >>
> > >>>BT wrote:
> > >>>
> > >>>>how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
> > >>>>wag at
> > >>>>200ft AGL..
> > >>>>and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
> > >>>>previous
> > >>>>lesson of course..
> > >>>>
> > >>>>and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at 300ft?
> > >>>>and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe start
> > >>>>a
> > >>>>gradual descent?
> > >>>>
> > >>>>so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind turn..
> > >>>>briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
> > >>>>off..
> > >>>>the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that the
> > >>>>pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants me
> > >>>>to
> > >>>>get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
> > >>>>appears
> > >>>>well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if things
> > >>>>did
> > >>>>not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
> > >>>>ready
> > >>>>for something.
> > >>>>
> > >>>>BT
> > >>>
> > >>>BT,
> > >>>
> > >>>I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
> > >>>the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
> > >>>This is unacceptable.
> > >>>
> > >>>Three that I always do:
> > >>>
> > >>>- Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
> > >>>due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
> > >>>500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
> > >>>might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
> > >>>the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
> > >>>student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
> > >>>we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
> > >>>20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
> > >>>time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
> > >>>finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
> > >>>enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
> > >>>
> > >>>- Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
> > >>>glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
> > >>>release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
> > >>>
> > >>>- This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
> > >>>I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
> > >>>will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
> > >>>marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
> > >>>the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
> > >>>student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
> > >>>ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
> > >>>b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
> > >>>forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
> > >>>whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
> > >>>Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
> > >>>towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
> > >>>traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
> > >>>through this, though we do have the discussion.
> > >>>
> > >>>Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
> > >>>other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
> > >>>
> > >>>Erik Mann
> > >>>LS8-18 (P3)
> > >>>
> > >>
> > >>
> > >
> > >

[Tony Verhulst]

SAM 303a wrote:
> Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
> Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
> window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down......

What am I missing? The window pops open on a Pawnee, big deal - keep going.

Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

[Guy Acheson]

It struck me how similar this discussion is to the
use of transponders. Tow signals were all based upon
the fact that gliders did not have radios. Only through
wing waggles, wing rockings, rudder waggles and rudder
induced yawing could the glider pilot and tow pilot
communicate. With a radio, we can talk. The tow pilot
can start each tow with, 'DDS, confirm that your canopy
is locked and spoilers are closed.' A spoilers open
on tow situation could be corrected by the tow pilot
with, 'DDS, your spoilers are open, close your spoilers!'

A potential gear up landing could be avoided by someone
on the ground using the radio to say, 'glider on final,
your gear is not down.'

A canopy open situation could possibly be improved
by someone on the radio talking to the pilot and reminding
them to fly the plane.

I really think it is time for the glider community
to move into the 21st century and use radios. Current
radios and batteries leave no reason to not have them
installed and operating. We use the tow signals so
infrequently that they are not part of your core flying
skills. I know that when I have had high stress flying
situations, my rational brain has shut down. Under
high stress I am in survival mode. I am pretty sure
that the human voice over a radio has a much better
chance of getting the stressed pilot's attention than
all the rudder wagging and wing rocking the tow pilot
can muster.

Now I feel better.

Guy Acheson 'DDS' and '59'

[BT]

If I'm in the air and the window pops open on my Pawnee.. I'm going to keep
flying.. get the glider to a safe altitude and then return. Yes the POH says
not to fly with the window open, keep the speed down.
We know it will fly with the window open.

There have been too many power accidents from pilots forgetting to fly and
worried about an open window or door.. and something worse happens.

BT

"SAM 303a" <brentDAHTsullivanATgmailDAHTcom> wrote in message
...
> Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
> Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
> window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down, angled left; I released,
> angled a bit right and banged into a thermal that bounced me to about 80',
> providing a little short field landing practice.
> Here's the stupid part--my hand was on the divebrakes and I was about to
> deploy them, but when the ship started rising I took my hand off!
> Something in me said "dive brakes aren't used in thermals". I should have
> been on the dive brakes immediately and never gotten as high as I did. It
> wasn't a big deal, I didn't even use all of the glide slope control my
> dear Mosquito offers. I did behave in a way I wouldn't have
> predicted--that got my attention.
>
> "Bill Daniels" <bildan@comcast-dot-net> wrote in message
> . ..
>> What about tow plane aborts on the runway?
>>
>> I had a tug pilot shut down and brake sharply to a stop right on the
>> centerline just after I had lifted off. It took some trick flying to
>> avoid hitting him. I thought this was one in a million until I saw it
>> happen to another glider pilot only a year later. In my case the tuggie
>> suddenly decided he didn't want to fly right then. In the other case,
>> the tuggie left the fuel cap off the Pawnee and gas was streaming onto
>> the canopy.
>>
>> Part of the "Emergency" pre-takeoff planning has to be about where to go
>> if the tug slams on the brakes. I'd think the tuggie should move as far
>> to the left as possible - even departing the runway to the left during an
>> abort if that is possible. AFAIK, runway aborts aren't addresed in tow
>> pilot training.
>>
>> Bill Daniels
>>
>>
>> "BT" > wrote in message
>> news:LhAXg.4029$gM1.2379@fed1read12...
>>> Papa3.. I like your third one..
>>>
>>> now another... how many instructors pull the rope at about 20-30ft AGL..
>>> just as the climb starts.. and watch the student try to go every which
>>> way but straight ahead and land. Remember the mantra.. below 200ft land
>>> straight ahead.
>>>
>>> We have a long 3500ft runway, we stage about 500ft down the runway, the
>>> tow is normally airborn with 1500ft remaining.. we have 600ft of gravel
>>> beyond the paved portion, that is 2100ft to land on from 40ft AGL. I can
>>> pull the rope at 20-40ft at the 1500ft remaining marker.. (cross taxi
>>> way).. a good student will get it down and I'll have to coax him to let
>>> it roll to the end so we can just turn around and tow out the opposite
>>> direction. I've had other students looking for a place to go and I've
>>> had to take over.
>>>
>>> Tow pilot may be briefed ahead.. but we have a standing rule.. if the
>>> tow is airborne and feels a release.. the tow keeps going.. do not try
>>> to land... your blocking the runway for the glider.. we also have about
>>> 150ft of good landable grading beside the runway, whole length.
>>>
>>> BT
>>>
>>> "Papa3" > wrote in message
>>> ups.com...
>>>>
>>>> BT wrote:
>>>>> how many instructors coordinate with their tow pilot to give a rudder
>>>>> wag at
>>>>> 200ft AGL..
>>>>> and then watch what happens.. after appropriate ground school in a
>>>>> previous
>>>>> lesson of course..
>>>>>
>>>>> and then.. on another lesson day.. coordinates for a wave off at
>>>>> 300ft?
>>>>> and a good tow pilot might reduce power with the wave off or maybe
>>>>> start a
>>>>> gradual descent?
>>>>>
>>>>> so many times.. I've had the tow pilot pull a close in down wind
>>>>> turn..
>>>>> briefed of course.. never get above 500ft AGL and then start the wave
>>>>> off..
>>>>> the student or rated pilot on a flight review does not realize that
>>>>> the
>>>>> pattern IS NOT NORMAL... what's going on.. and then... ohh.. he wants
>>>>> me to
>>>>> get off.. and then takes his sweet time doing it.. granted.. if all
>>>>> appears
>>>>> well.. make sure you are in a safe place to get off tow.. but if
>>>>> things did
>>>>> not look normal before.. that should have been the earlier clue to be
>>>>> ready
>>>>> for something.
>>>>>
>>>>> BT
>>>>
>>>> BT,
>>>>
>>>> I couldn't agree with you more - many instructors let students get all
>>>> the way to their rating without the above sorts of "dirty tricks".
>>>> This is unacceptable.
>>>>
>>>> Three that I always do:
>>>>
>>>> - Towpilot begins to slowly throttle back (simulating loss of power
>>>> due to any number of reasons) at a pre-arranged altitude of about
>>>> 500-700 AGL without a waveoff. In real-life, this is exactly what
>>>> might happen in the event of a non-catastrophic towplane problem while
>>>> the towpilot tries to figure out "what the ***". What does the
>>>> student do? Most will watch as the inevitable slack line develops and
>>>> we begin to transition from positive rate of climb to descent. About
>>>> 20% figure out something is wrong and release while they still have
>>>> time to make a reasonable pattern and landing. When towpilot
>>>> finally gives the wave off MOST of the remainder are already on a high
>>>> enough alert level that they release immediately. A few freeze.
>>>>
>>>> - Towpilot gives the rudder waggle at altitude (always above a safe
>>>> glide to the airport). Most do the right thing. A few either a)
>>>> release or b) ask me "what's he doing."
>>>>
>>>> - This last one is "fun", though it isn't really a tow signal per se.
>>>> I admit that it's a hassle, but it can be a great learning tool. I
>>>> will have the towpilot plan on a particularly slow acceleration and a
>>>> marginal liftoff well down the field. All the while, I'll be asking
>>>> the student "does this feel right"? I will then pull the release (if
>>>> student hasn't already) and land straight ahead. The discussion that
>>>> ensues is along the lines of : a) Hey, it's your neck on the line.
>>>> b) Don't trust the towpilot blindly - maybe he's got a problem and has
>>>> forgotten about you. c) The trees at the end of the runway won't care
>>>> whose fault it was when you impact them 20 feet below the tops.
>>>> Caution: This requires careful coordination and briefing with the
>>>> towpilot, an ample length of remaining runway, coordination with other
>>>> traffic, etc. etc. I'll admit that not every student of mine has been
>>>> through this, though we do have the discussion.
>>>>
>>>> Anyway, I think a lot of people get through training without these and
>>>> other dirty tricks, and it's a shame.
>>>>
>>>> Erik Mann
>>>> LS8-18 (P3)
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[BT]

There is something to be said for power.. POWER!!
like a 250HP Pawnee..
BT

"BB" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Our club has evolved what seems to me a very sensible strategy for
> dealing with spoilers open and similar problems.
>
> If the towpilot is not in trouble -- if the towplane is climbing and at
> a safe altitude and position -- he/she will not wag the tail. If the
> glider pilot's brain has faded enough that the spoilers are out, it's
> clear the pilot is having reduced situational awareness, so adding the
> task of interpreting a seldom-used emergency signal does risk being
> misinterpreted. A low-altitude release with spoilers out will be
> catastrophic, and if the tow is still safe, why risk it.
>
> Instead, the tow pilot will try to raise the pilot on the radio. The
> tow pilot will keep climbing, keep trying by radio, and bring the
> glider directly over the field before trying a rudder waggle. All this
> is in a written tow procedures document that eveyrone has to read and
> is reviewed at checkouts and flight reviews.
>
> As I think about it, it might be even better to have the tow pilot
> level out at 1,800' over the field until the problem is resolved, to
> help ensure the glider will not release with the spoilers still out and
> the problem undiagnosed.
>
> This does not mean we ignore standard signals, so don't start flaming
> on this. They are there, and pilots and towpilots are all expected to
> know them and use them if necessary. If the tow pilot is in any doubt
> about the safety of continuing the tow with spoiler out, they can wag
> to their hearts' content or take whatever other action is appropriate.
> And we also brief wing runners to look for spoilers and canopies, and
> pilots to do checklists, etc. etc.
>
> John Cochrane BB
>

[5Z]

Guy Acheson wrote:
> I really think it is time for the glider community
> to move into the 21st century and use radios.

Seems like I get almost as many "say again" as actual replies to a
simple air to air chatter question. And then there's getting stepped
on, etc... I agree a radio call in conjunction with a visual signal is
a good idea. There are literally an infinite number of ways to screw
things up between the radio check and the "must work" transmission a
few minutes later.

-Tom

[Nyal Williams]

I have never flown a Pawnee and I'm not a tow pilot.
Some of our tow pilots say the plane is so noisy that
the radio is practically useless except to transmit.
They have good headsets..

At 03:12 14 October 2006, 5z wrote:
>
>Guy Acheson wrote:
>> I really think it is time for the glider community
>> to move into the 21st century and use radios.
>
>Seems like I get almost as many 'say again' as actual
>replies to a
>simple air to air chatter question. And then there's
>getting stepped
>on, etc... I agree a radio call in conjunction with
>a visual signal is
>a good idea. There are literally an infinite number
>of ways to screw
>things up between the radio check and the 'must work'
>transmission a
>few minutes later.
>
>-Tom
>
>

[Guy Acheson]

I am sorry, but to say a Pawnee is too noisy for a
tow pilot to hear the radio, with headphones, is just
too much of a stretch. That is just a crappy installation
or very poor headphones. The glider community is too
full of just too many excuses for not using a radio.
'The transmission is poor.' ' Engine noise too great.'
' Wind noise too much.' 'English is a second language.'
Come on! Radios should be a standard piece of equipment
and they should work. Tow signals are a valuable back-up
to radio communication, but they should only be a back-up...not
an excuse. Aviation is a serious business, not a casual
walk in the park. People die in aviation and a great
number of incidents in glider aviation could be avoided
with better, more direct communication.

Anyway, that is my opinion.

Guy Acheson 'DDS' and '59'

[Bruce Greef]

Guy Acheson wrote:
> I am sorry, but to say a Pawnee is too noisy for a
> tow pilot to hear the radio, with headphones, is just
> too much of a stretch. That is just a crappy installation
> or very poor headphones. The glider community is too
> full of just too many excuses for not using a radio.
> 'The transmission is poor.' ' Engine noise too great.'
> ' Wind noise too much.' 'English is a second language.'
> Come on! Radios should be a standard piece of equipment
> and they should work. Tow signals are a valuable back-up
> to radio communication, but they should only be a back-up...not
> an excuse. Aviation is a serious business, not a casual
> walk in the park. People die in aviation and a great
> number of incidents in glider aviation could be avoided
> with better, more direct communication.
>
> Anyway, that is my opinion.
>
> Guy Acheson 'DDS' and '59'
>
>
>
Too many excuses by far.

We run a "vintage glider" club by most standards. My 1970 Std Cirrus was the hot
ship until we got a 1971 Kestrel.

That said - they all have working radios. From the 1956 Bergfalke II/55 to the
Kestrel. Soem of the radios are as old and low performance as what they are
bolted into, butthey all work.

Club rule is - no launch is allowed without the pilot in the glider making a
successful call to ground, on the appropriate frequeny. No excuses, no fuss. Use
a handheld if you must.

Personally, I found fitting a boom microphone and PTT switch to my steam era
King Kx195 radio was an outstanding investment. Next move is to get a decent 760
channel into the panel. Not that the King is a bad radio - it is powerful and
clear. But the amount of battery power it consumes is cause for concern on a
long cross country...

So, my advise is to stop making excuses and fit a halfway decent radio. Your
life could depend on it soem day.

[Andy[_1_]]

Guy Acheson wrote:
With a radio, we can talk. The tow pilot
can start each tow with, 'DDS, confirm that your canopy
is locked and spoilers are closed.'


This may work at a site that operates only one tow plane but it is a
safety hazard when multiple tow operations are in progress as at a
regional or national contest. The frequency should be kept clear so it
can be used to communicate abnormal or emergency situations.

The required procedure using SSA approved signals is - glider about to
launch confirm that you have completed your pre-takeoff checks and are
ready to launch by wagging your rudder. No radio use required.


Andy

[[email protected]]

Tony Verhulst wrote:
> SAM 303a wrote:
> > Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
> > Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
> > window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down......
>
> What am I missing? The window pops open on a Pawnee, big deal - keep going.
>
> Tony V. LS6-b "6N"

Tony I am not a Tow Pilot but a friend was killed by the opening
window on a Pawnee
tow plane.
If the front hinge mounts are damaged or weak in any way the abrupt
wind force can break the hinge point and the window will pivot on the
rear hinge and flail in the slipstream, this happened and killed or
knocked unconcious the towpilot in flight, we knew this happened in
flight because of the stream of blood on the fuse.
Unfortunately the canopy handle is at the perfect position to hit the
the Temporal artery on the head if it lets go.
It has been mandatory to wear a crash helmet when towing in the Pawnee
ever since.

[Tony Verhulst]

wrote:
> Tony Verhulst wrote:
>> SAM 303a wrote:
>>> Had one of these 6 weeks ago.
>>> Both of us 15-20' off the ground with 1500+ ft of runway ahead and the
>>> window popped open on the Pawnee. He shut down......
>> What am I missing? The window pops open on a Pawnee, big deal - keep going.
>>
>> Tony V. LS6-b "6N"
>
> Tony I am not a Tow Pilot but a friend was killed by the opening
> window on a Pawnee
> tow plane.
> If the front hinge mounts are damaged or weak in any way the abrupt
> wind force can break the hinge point and the window will pivot on the
> rear hinge and flail in the slipstream, this happened and killed or
> knocked unconcious the towpilot in flight, we knew this happened in
> flight because of the stream of blood on the fuse.
> Unfortunately the canopy handle is at the perfect position to hit the
> the Temporal artery on the head if it lets go.
> It has been mandatory to wear a crash helmet when towing in the Pawnee
> ever since.
>

Wow! Thanks for the info. My club has 2 Pawnees and I've forwarded your
post to our tow pilot's email list.

Tony

[Vaughn Simon]

"Bruce Greef" > wrote in message
...

> Too many excuses by far.

Exactly! I fly with a little Vertex VXA-150 hanging on a light lanyard
around my neck like a piece of jewelry. It costs a whole $230.00, weighs a few
ounces, runs all day on a charge, and is packed with features, including the
weather band. If you can't afford that, you probably should find another hobby.
http://www.wingsandwheels.com/page6.htm

Vaughn

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jack" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Radios are great but... Radios DO
> malfunction... Transmissions DO get walked on...

Parachutes sometimes fail to open, but you still see plenty of them around
gliderports.

>And... you don't get
> too much for $200- in a portable. That being the opinion of someone
> that does radio for a living.

From someone else who does radios for a living, I respectfully disagree.
My little $230.00 Vertex ricebox compares well to some of the stuff my employers
pays $ thousands for! Why would anybody fly without a radio?

Vaughn

[Jack[_4_]]

Vaughn,

Please don't put words in my mouth... I never would suggest that
anyone fly without a radio. Don't tell me now how good your $230- radio
is now, tell me 10 years from now. If it's still working and hasn't
fallen apart, I'll agree with you.

A radio should always be used as primary. It's the safest thing to do.
As a backup... know the signals. If you are out working trackside and
your handheld radio craps out, you had better know the hand/lantern
signals or you might just get run over my the train... or fired... or
fined by the FRA... or all of the above... (like the FAA, but for choo
choos.) Heck, they even take the slack out.

Jack Womack

[Andy[_1_]]

Jack wrote:
>A radio should always be used as primary.

Yes, a radio should be primary for abnormals and emergencies.
Cluttering the frequency with non essential transmissions may make it
unavailable when it is really needed.

Andy

[Vaughn Simon]

"Jack" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Vaughn,
>
> Please don't put words in my mouth...

I don't believe I did, and that certainly was not my intention. My
comments were aimed at the group, not you in particular.

>I never would suggest that
> anyone fly without a radio.

Good.

>Don't tell me now how good your $230- radio
> is now, tell me 10 years from now. If it's still working and hasn't
> fallen apart, I'll agree with you.

I have had it for several years. It is showing no signs of "falling
apart". Where I work, we pay over $3000,00 for Motorola portable radios and
expect them to last 5 to 7 years. By that comparison, anything made by Vertex
or Icom looks like a heluva bargain.


Vaughn

[Jack[_4_]]

We bouhgt Motorolas for years. When they got over $2200- each in bulk
of 1000, we switched to Kenwoods. I think we bought over 6000 of them
last year. They're running about $720- each for a full kit in the
numbers we buy. They don't hold up, but in reality, probably do as well
as the Motorolas in the rough service of the railroads.

Radio should be used as primary if there's a problem. A sailplane on
tow, spoilers open, and not climbing needs to be told if possible.
There's no confusion in a transmission that says "check your spoilers!"
I don't think that qualifies as cluttering up the airwaves... That
situation is the subject of this post, not just casual conversation
between friends in the air.

Jack Womack

[Jack[_1_]]

wrote:

> ...I am not a Tow Pilot but a friend was killed by the opening
> window on a Pawnee tow plane.
> If the front hinge mounts are damaged or weak in any way the abrupt
> wind force can break the hinge point and the window will pivot on the
> rear hinge and flail in the slipstream, this happened and killed or
> knocked unconcious the towpilot in flight, we knew this happened in
> flight because of the stream of blood on the fuse.
> Unfortunately the canopy handle is at the perfect position to hit the
> the Temporal artery on the head if it lets go.
> It has been mandatory to wear a crash helmet when towing in the Pawnee
> ever since.

Was there evidence of the cause of the initial opening? Bad latch?
Operator error? Broken hinge? Lost hinge pin?


Jack