MXSMANIC - The posts don't add up

[John Theune]

He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes. He has made mention of
a monthly income of 650.00 per month and his inability to earn more.
However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge. I also
understand that he is a frequent contributor to the photography groups.
His answers are frequently wrong when it comes aviation matters but the
bottom line is that he has a lot of knowledge. So the question is this:
Is he truly a poor Frenchman who cannot make enough money to pursue
flying or is he just spouting a line of bull? While no mention has been
made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
about the money. Things just don't add up.

[C. Massey]

"John Theune" > wrote in message
news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...
> He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
> flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes. He has made mention of a
> monthly income of 650.00 per month and his inability to earn more. However
> I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical subjects and
> he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge. I also understand that he
> is a frequent contributor to the photography groups. His answers are
> frequently wrong when it comes aviation matters but the bottom line is
> that he has a lot of knowledge. So the question is this: Is he truly a
> poor Frenchman who cannot make enough money to pursue flying or is he just
> spouting a line of bull? While no mention has been made of a physical
> issue that would prevent him from working, he has not made that a point as
> to why he will not fly planes, it's always been about the money. Things
> just don't add up.


If he only made $650 a month, do you think that he could afford a PC,
internet and flight sim?




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[Thomas Borchert]

John,

He is an American living in PAris.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Emily]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> John,
>
> He is an American living in PAris.
>
Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
in Paris? <g>

[Kev]

John Theune wrote:
> [..] While no mention has been
> made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
> made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
> about the money. Things just don't add up.

I think it's none of our business. He could be very young or
handicapped, but it doesn't matter. I've been online in some form or
another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.

Those latter people, who think they can dictate whom the rest of us
converse with, should be ashamed of themselves. I've lost a lot of
respect for some of the regulars here, because they've shown just how
full of themselves they are.

I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
everywhere?

Kevin

[John Theune]

Kev wrote:
> John Theune wrote:
>> [..] While no mention has been
>> made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
>> made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
>> about the money. Things just don't add up.
>
> I think it's none of our business. He could be very young or
> handicapped, but it doesn't matter. I've been online in some form or
> another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
> forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
> the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.
>
> Those latter people, who think they can dictate whom the rest of us
> converse with, should be ashamed of themselves. I've lost a lot of
> respect for some of the regulars here, because they've shown just how
> full of themselves they are.
>
> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
> can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
> flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
> everywhere?
>
> Kevin
>
Part of the issue is that this group has explained how aviation works
along with the cites of the FARs to back them up. He still insists that
he is right and he posts statements that are wrong and if believed by
less informed people could lead to very bad things. I question his
creditability because the facts don't add up. If he had not said he
would not go up with a instructor for training because of the money then
I would not question it. But he has stated that he has no money and
that's why he won't get the training. I question his statement about no
money because he shows too much knowledge to be un-employable at a more
then minimum wage job. He may choose to not work and that's his choice
but he should not use the lack of funds as a excuse for not getting the
training. He argues about relatively simple flying concepts and refuses
to get the knowledge but expects us to accept his theories without any
proof.

[Ron Natalie]

John Theune wrote:

> Part of the issue is that this group has explained how aviation works
> along with the cites of the FARs to back them up.

Yes the problem is that unless you know that all the authority he
espouses has to do with what he observes in MSFS. He talks about
what you can do in a Baron without mentioning that he's talking
about the rather poor simulation of a Baron. Fortunately, he's
not too dangerous because people jump all over him.

The major problem I have is not so much that he's flying a simulator
but that he refuses to do anything remotely reasonable to LEARN to
do things properly. I've suggested a couple of books to him.
Kerschner's Student Pilot Manual would be perfect as he dabbles
more into the physics and stuff and isn't quite as dry as most
of the "geared for groundschool for the written test" type stuff.

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

"John Theune" > wrote in message
news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...

> However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
> subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge.

I can't comment on his medical knowledge, but in the mathematical subjects I
recall, he applied the wrong formula for a given situation.

Pretty mach the same thing he does in aviation matters.

[John Theune]

Steve Foley wrote:
> "John Theune" > wrote in message
> news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...
>
>> However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
>> subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge.
>
> I can't comment on his medical knowledge, but in the mathematical subjects I
> recall, he applied the wrong formula for a given situation.
>
> Pretty mach the same thing he does in aviation matters.
>
>
True, he was wrong there also, but he knew enough math to make it appear
reasonable ( and wrong ) Not what I would expect from a minimum wage
earning person. If he had that level of knowledge/training he should be
able to get a better job. I know from what I've seen over the years at
work the ability to be right is not required for getting a job, it's
much more knowing the lingo. I'm sure you run into clueless people at
work before also. One wonders how they keep their jobs but its not
terrible surprising how they got them.
Bottom line is I don't buy his line of poverty as a reason to not learn
more about flying from a professional or even by himself from purchased
book.

[ktbr]

Who cares. I usually ignore his posts for the most part
but a few of his posts have generated some interesting
discussion.

All that aside, nutcases like skylunatic ar far more
irritating than mxsmanic, and even very bad for GA in
general because his type will move on to other forums
and spout off the same whiney drivel that aviation-ignorant
dimwits will believe.

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

C. Massey wrote:
>
> If he only made $650 a month, do you think that he could afford a PC,
> internet and flight sim?

- A kid living with parents

- A mentally, physically, or combination of both, disabled person living
with the assistance of relatives, or in a group setting

He's made references to manias and fears, so form your own opinion.

[Thomas Borchert]

Emily,

> What American would CHOOSE to live
> in Paris? <g>
>

Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Thomas Borchert]

Kev,

> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things.
>

You couldn't be more wrong. He doesn't WANT to have things explained.
He wants to trash people giving the explanation.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Kev]

John Theune wrote:
> [..] I question his statement about no
> money because he shows too much knowledge to be un-employable at a more
> then minimum wage job. He may choose to not work and that's his choice
> but he should not use the lack of funds as a excuse for not getting the
> training.

A polite "phooie" as reply :) Who needs an excuse? A lot of people
here could "afford" Instrument training and a lot of other things, but
don't.

For that matter, a lot of poeple here *should* learn how to quote,
post, spell, etc, but don't. In the overall scheme of things, it's all
Not A Big Deal. (I'm recovering from a cancer that should've killed me
last year.)

> He argues about relatively simple flying concepts and refuses
> to get the knowledge but expects us to accept his theories without any
> proof.

I would rather read his posts (actually, the attempted answers) than
read the "evil downwind turn" and other bull that *actual* pilots come
up with, for the millionth time. He at least, has an excuse for not
knowing such flight details.

It's too bad he's not near someone who could take him up. We all know
that one flight would answer (shatter?) a lot of his questions and
opinions.

Best, Kevin

[swag]

I agree. This is the second thread this week that has nothing to do
with aviation or piloting, whose only purpose is to trash Mxmanic. If
you read the threads he has been involved with, he does not criticize
or denigrate anyone. But he is personally attacked by a handful of
people who are enraged by his views.


Kev wrote:
> John Theune wrote:
> > [..] While no mention has been
> > made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
> > made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
> > about the money. Things just don't add up.
>
> I think it's none of our business. He could be very young or
> handicapped, but it doesn't matter. I've been online in some form or
> another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
> forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
> the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.
>
> Those latter people, who think they can dictate whom the rest of us
> converse with, should be ashamed of themselves. I've lost a lot of
> respect for some of the regulars here, because they've shown just how
> full of themselves they are.
>
> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
> can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
> flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
> everywhere?
>
> Kevin

[gatt]

"C. Massey" > wrote in message
m...
\
> If he only made $650 a month, do you think that he could afford a PC,


Sure. College kid.

-c

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Thomas Borchert > wrote:

> > What American would CHOOSE to live
> > in Paris? <g>
>
> Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.

Remember, Emily is living in Texas.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Bob Noel]

In article . com>,
"Kev" > wrote:

> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
> can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
> flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
> everywhere?

It is not a valid test when someone like him refuses to learn. You'd make
better progress convincing the long island looney bird that airplane noise
is music to his ears.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Quilljar]

The answer is that Myxo is a full-time TROLL who is laughing his socks off
at these threads. As long as they are about him, he's happy.
Killfile is the answer.
--
Quilljar
Flight by machines heavier than air is unpractical and insignificant,
if not utterly impossible Simon Newcomb US Astronomer 1902

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 18:09:59 +0200, Thomas Borchert wrote:

> Emily,
>
>> What American would CHOOSE to live
>> in Paris? <g>
>>
>>
> Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.

Come on! France has had a certain...reputation...for far longer than
that. Think "Jerry Lewis".

- Andrew

[.Blueskies.]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message ...
: Emily,
:
: > What American would CHOOSE to live
: > in Paris? <g>
: >
:
: Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.
:
: --
: Thomas Borchert (EDDH)
:

They are called French fries again in DC...

[.Blueskies.]

"John Theune" > wrote in message news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...
: He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
: flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes. He has made mention of
: a monthly income of 650.00 per month and his inability to earn more.
: However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
: subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge. I also
: understand that he is a frequent contributor to the photography groups.
: His answers are frequently wrong when it comes aviation matters but the
: bottom line is that he has a lot of knowledge. So the question is this:
: Is he truly a poor Frenchman who cannot make enough money to pursue
: flying or is he just spouting a line of bull? While no mention has been
: made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
: made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
: about the money. Things just don't add up.



Probably just a front for the FBI or something, trying to get info from us about airplanes...

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
B A R R Y > wrote:

> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:57:40 GMT, ".Blueskies."
> > wrote:
>
> >
> >They are called French fries again in DC...
> >
>
> CT, as well.
>
> We also have French toast, French bread, and French kissing!

cue the commercial...

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[buttman]

Kev wrote:
> John Theune wrote:
> > [..] While no mention has been
> > made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
> > made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
> > about the money. Things just don't add up.
>
> I think it's none of our business. He could be very young or
> handicapped, but it doesn't matter. I've been online in some form or
> another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
> forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
> the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.
>
> Those latter people, who think they can dictate whom the rest of us
> converse with, should be ashamed of themselves. I've lost a lot of
> respect for some of the regulars here, because they've shown just how
> full of themselves they are.
>
> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
> can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
> flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
> everywhere?
>
> Kevin

I agree with every word you said. I don't understand why everyone has
to obsess over him. He's not even that bad of a poster...

The reason he gets so much crap is because some people (90% of this
newsgroup), just absolutely have to constantly remind to the world how
wonderful and great they are. And they do that by condescending on
lesser knowledgeable people, such as mx.

The only reason mx gets so much crap is because he admitted to
everybody he is a below everyone else knowledge wise. He
(involuntarily) offered himself to be the wisemen-know-it-all-wannabe's
punching bag.

The same thing happened to me when I made a thread a few months ago,
and made the mistake of mentioning I was in my early 20's. It didn't
matter what my argument was, I was just a dumb, spoiled punk teenager,
and I knew nothing. If I had made the exact same thread, but portrayed
myself as a grey-haired 60-year old ex-army pilot or something, I would
have been treated so much differently. I swear, if mx would from now on
post only under random pseudo names (like me), no one would say a
single word about any of his posts.

It's not what you say, or how you say it as much as it is who you are.
Sometimes this place resembles a middle school playground more than a
professional discussion group.

[Emily]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Emily,
>
>> What American would CHOOSE to live
>> in Paris? <g>

I'll rephrase. What non-Parisian would choose to live in Paris?

> Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.
>
Personally, I've been to Paris, wasn't impressed, and couldn't imagine
choosing to live there. Loved Frankfurt, on the other hand. Loved
London too, but the traffic is terrible.

[Emily]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> Thomas Borchert > wrote:
>
>>> What American would CHOOSE to live
>>> in Paris? <g>
>> Please! Not you, too, joining the Freedom Fries Faction.
>
> Remember, Emily is living in Texas.
>
Ugh, it wasn't pro American, anti-French!

It was just anti rude Parisians.

[LWG]

Yes, but at least one of those (French toast) has little or nothing to do
with France.

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> B A R R Y > wrote:
>
>> On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 23:57:40 GMT, ".Blueskies."
>> > wrote:
>>
>> >
>> >They are called French fries again in DC...
>> >
>>
>> CT, as well.
>>
>> We also have French toast, French bread, and French kissing!
>
> cue the commercial...
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

[Sylvain]

buttman wrote:

> I agree with every word you said. I don't understand why everyone has
> to obsess over him. He's not even that bad of a poster...

he does indeed ask interesting questions (e.g., why are turbines
more expensive than pistons?) and he is not stupid; but he does
have a way of being annoying at times; one thing he does and which
is a sure way of being ostracized in many newsgroups, not just r.a.*,
is that he fails to do his homework: he will question an answer,
or re-ask the same question, even when provided with pretty good
references/sources of info that he obviously does not bother
to read...

--Sylvain

[Marc Adler]

On Oct 13, 7:37 am, Emily > wrote:

> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
> in Paris? <g>

Sidney Bechet, Dexter Gordon, Miles Davis, Josephine Baker, George
Gershwin...

Not that you know who any of those people are.

Oh and Benjamin Franklin. There's a sliver of a chance you've heard of
him. After all, you appear to be at least semi-literate.

Marc

[Sylvain]

Emily wrote:

> I'll rephrase. What non-Parisian would choose to live in Paris?

music to my ears! :-) someone who understands the difference :-)

--Sylvain

[Emily]

Marc Adler wrote:
> On Oct 13, 7:37 am, Emily > wrote:
>
>> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
>> in Paris? <g>
>
> Sidney Bechet, Dexter Gordon, Miles Davis, Josephine Baker, George
> Gershwin...
>
> Not that you know who any of those people are.
>
> Oh and Benjamin Franklin. There's a sliver of a chance you've heard of
> him. After all, you appear to be at least semi-literate.
>
> Marc
>
First, it was a joke. Notice that I ever put a <g> in. I don't assume
most of you people understand sarcasm.

Second, I already posted to Thomas explaining my feelings on Paris.

But plonk anyway. People like you bore me.

[Emily]

Sylvain wrote:
> Emily wrote:
>
>> I'll rephrase. What non-Parisian would choose to live in Paris?
>
> music to my ears! :-) someone who understands the difference :-)

Well, I've been to Paris. I'm sure the rest of France is very nice,
when you pretty much have to enter the country through CDG, well, let's
just say it's not a pleasant welcome.

[Marc Adler]

On Oct 13, 9:05 pm, Emily > wrote:

> Notice that I ever put a <g> in.

I don't think anyone makes derogatory statements about France on the
internet these days without attempting some kind of facetious tone, so
don't blame me, blame the bigots.

> Second, I already posted to Thomas explaining my feelings on Paris.

I'll be looking for the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica about
your feeling on Paris.

> But plonk anyway. People like you bore me.

Well, I imagine one of the downsides of being perfect (well, typing
aside) is that a lot of people must bore you.

What a burden you shoulder. My heart goes out to you.

Marc

[RK Henry]

On Fri, 13 Oct 2006 07:37:31 -0500, Emily
> wrote:

>Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> John,
>>
>> He is an American living in PAris.
>>
>Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
>in Paris? <g>

Well in the movie, Gene Kelly was a painter who mostly sings and
dances.

RK Henry

[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>

>
>I'll rephrase. What non-Parisian would choose to live in Paris?
>

>>
>Personally, I've been to Paris, wasn't impressed, and couldn't imagine
>choosing to live there.


What does it take to impress you?
Just say the word TEXAS and Parisians will be waiting for the punchline.
Yet you choose to live there...


I agree with you about CDG airport though - Operators like Air France
are aware of how bad it is, but so far the French in general have not
come to understand that their international gateway is a third-world
torture chamber!

GF

[Greg Farris]

In article . com>,
says...

I've been online in some form or
>another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
>forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
>the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.
>

All that experience still hasn't made you very observant.
Many of us with much less experience have learned to recognize abuse when we
see it, and I regret to see well meaning people, with the desire to teach
and share knowledge being insulted and taken for a ride.

Bob Gardner (to cite only one) has been flying and instructing for decades,
and has made a lifelong passion of trying to translate and explain flying
concepts to beginners of all ages who desire to learn. Even MXSMANIAC could
afford one of Bob's books, and if he were to purchase it, read it in earnest
and try to learn everything in it, he would be a more knowledgable poster,
and less irksome to others. It would also be indicative of a positive
attitude, which is absolutely indispensable to being a pilot. The fact that
he will not do this, and feels free to take the author to task and insult
him over his ignorance is indicative of a non-constructive attitude, which
is why his contributions are (understandably) seen by many here as
manipulative and abusive.

Manipulation and abuse by vindictive posters are very destructive forces in
the "self-governed" world of usenet, and can destroy otherwise useful and
constructive forums. This is why many here are concerned - it is not with
any desire to chastise or punish an individual, even less, as you posit, to
prove some sort of superiority to him - the concern is a degradation of
the quality of discourse here, mixed with just enough insult and
manipulation, to make well-meaning contributors feel they are wasting their
time. They will leave and not come back. Some probably already have.

I hope I have been explicit enough to help you understand.

GF

[Emily]

Greg Farris wrote:
> In article >,
> says...
>>
>
>> I'll rephrase. What non-Parisian would choose to live in Paris?
>>
>
>> Personally, I've been to Paris, wasn't impressed, and couldn't imagine
>> choosing to live there.
>
>
> What does it take to impress you?
> Just say the word TEXAS and Parisians will be waiting for the punchline.
> Yet you choose to live there...
My job is here.

[Emily]

Jon Kraus wrote:
> She appears to have done quite a lot in her short 20-something years on
> the Earth. She's a commercial pilot-CFI-A&P and now a world traveler to
> boot.
Don't believe it? I really don't care. The FAA records show the truth,
as does my passport. I know quite a few commercial pilot-CFI-A&P's and
most of us have at least been out of out home country. I don't see this
as ANYTHING worth suspecting to be a lie.

>And to top that off I hear she is now dating MXMANIC!!
Get lost. It makes you look sad and pathetic when you resort to saying
things like this.

> A couple of things that have already been proven about this girl; she is
> a liar and BS-artist.
I haven't lied about anything and I'm the worst BS'er in the world.

[Jon Kraus]

She appears to have done quite a lot in her short 20-something years on
the Earth. She's a commercial pilot-CFI-A&P and now a world traveler to
boot. And to top that off I hear she is now dating MXMANIC!! Wow... I
for one am impressed. And to think I thought a lot of 20-somethings were
angst-riddled complainers.. :-)

A couple of things that have already been proven about this girl; she is
a liar and BS-artist.

Jon Kraus
'79 Mooney 201
4443H @ UMP



Marc Adler wrote:

> On Oct 13, 9:05 pm, Emily > wrote:
>
>
>>Notice that I ever put a <g> in.
>
>
> I don't think anyone makes derogatory statements about France on the
> internet these days without attempting some kind of facetious tone, so
> don't blame me, blame the bigots.
>
>
>>Second, I already posted to Thomas explaining my feelings on Paris.
>
>
> I'll be looking for the article in the Encyclopedia Britannica about
> your feeling on Paris.
>
>
>>But plonk anyway. People like you bore me.
>
>
> Well, I imagine one of the downsides of being perfect (well, typing
> aside) is that a lot of people must bore you.
>
> What a burden you shoulder. My heart goes out to you.
>
> Marc
>

[Gary Drescher]

"Kev" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> I've been online in some form or
> another for over 30 years, and he's one of the most polite and
> forgiving posters I've seen (albeit extremely hard headed), considering
> the bile thrown at him by some crabby old men and women here.
>
> Those latter people, who think they can dictate whom the rest of us
> converse with, should be ashamed of themselves. I've lost a lot of
> respect for some of the regulars here, because they've shown just how
> full of themselves they are.
>
> I think he's a good test of how well we can explain things. If we
> can't convince someone like him, who's very interested in aviation, how
> flying works... then what chance do we have with people who want a TFR
> everywhere?

You're right that the schoolyard taunts directed at mxsmanic are an
embarrassment to this group (as is the credential-mongering that some people
have resorted to).

The problem, though, is that while much of mxsmanic's discussion is
reasonable (hence, my initial defense of his participation here), much of it
seems instead to be deliberately provocative (which still does not warrant
uncivil responses, but does explain some of the frustration that erupts).

Consider the following assertions he made in the recent "Flying patterns"
thread:

"In IFR, you don't have to look out the window for other aircraft. You
have help from controllers."

"By definition, if you are flying by instruments, you aren't looking
out the window. ATC provides separation."

"> Most IFR flights are NOT in IMC.
But IFR means that they are conducted as if they were in IMC,
irrespective of actual conditions."

"You follow their instructions, therefore they are providing
separation."

"Show me where I said that you don't have to look out the window."

"A controller may ask if you have visual contact with traffic. If you
do, you can say so, and thereby assume responsibility for maintaining
separation with it. If you don't see it, you cannot maintain
separation, so you are not responsible for doing so."

"If you are flying IFR, by definition, you may or may not be able to
see other aircraft. If you can see aircraft, you can maintain visual
separation; otherwise you cannot."

"By definition, if you are flying IFR, you don't have to be able to see or
visually maintain separation from anything, unless you implicitly
agree to do so by acknowledging visual contact."

"> Where are you getting your information?
I read it, but I don't remember where."

"If you are flying IFR in VMC, VFR traffic is required to see you, but
you are not required to see VFR traffic (or any other traffic)."

In response to his earliest posts above, many of us explained the reality of
IFR in VMC, and provided him with the relevant (free, online) references.
But his stream of obviously, dangerously false assertions continued
unabated. He never tried to cite any factual basis for his claims, but did
phrase them as (insistent, authoritative) statements of fact, which (many of
us felt) required us to keep rebutting him in order to preserve the
integrity of the aviation advice presented here.

He did not appear to be making an effort to engage in responsible,
good-faith discussion in this instance and others. In some threads, he
behaves more reasonably, which may give you a different impression of his
participation.

--Gary

[Thomas Borchert]

Emily,

> Loved Frankfurt, on the other hand.
>

You've got a warped mind ;-)

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Emily]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Emily,
>
>> Loved Frankfurt, on the other hand.
>>
>
> You've got a warped mind ;-)
>
Maybe "loved" is a strong word. But the food was better, and the people
much more friendly than Paris. I did love Munich, but for some reason
Frankfurt came to mind first...I think because I'd never seen a train
station that big!

[Owen[_4_]]

Emily wrote:

> Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > He is an American living in PAris.
> >
> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
> in Paris? <g>

Have you lived in Paris? I did (well I accepted the invitation) and I
enjoyed those years immensely. I'm not a city person in general, but I
loved living in Paris, the city, the people, the culture, even the
architecture made it the experience of a lifetime. The one thing I hated
was parking when I had to have a car, but c'est la vie. If I move back to
France, I would like to live in the country/small town next time, just for
something different. Beautiful place. .

If you're forced to live in Paris, I doubt you would have a frown on your
face for long, except when it's time to leave.

Oh yeah, France has all kinds of opportunities for general aviation, cute
little airports all over the place. Very expensive though, not that it
isn't getting that way in USA too. :(

[Thomas Borchert]

Emily,

> I did love Munich, but for some reason
> Frankfurt came to mind first.
>

You dig yourself in even further ;-)

I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
anytime. With ease.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH), Hamburg

[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>Thomas Borchert wrote:
>> Emily,
>>
>>> Loved Frankfurt, on the other hand.
>>>
>>
>> You've got a warped mind ;-)
>>
>Maybe "loved" is a strong word. But the food was better, and the people
>much more friendly than Paris. I did love Munich, but for some reason
>Frankfurt came to mind first...I think because I'd never seen a train
>station that big!

If it's for that, the North station in Paris is the biggest in Europe, but
it will certainly not improve your impression of Paris. It's even worse
than CDG Airport!

GF

[Emily]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Emily,
>
>> I did love Munich, but for some reason
>> Frankfurt came to mind first.
>>
>
> You dig yourself in even further ;-)
>
> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
> anytime. With ease.
>
Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
Emily > wrote:

> > I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
> > anytime. With ease.
> >
> Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.

That's probably my fault for mentioning that you are from Texas.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Emily]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >,
> Emily > wrote:
>
>>> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
>>> anytime. With ease.
>>>
>> Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.
>
> That's probably my fault for mentioning that you are from Texas.
>
From is a strong word. My job is here.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Emily > posted:

> Bob Noel wrote:
>> In article >,
>> Emily > wrote:
>>
>>>> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
>>>> anytime. With ease.
>>>>
>>> Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.
>>
>> That's probably my fault for mentioning that you are from Texas.
>>
> From is a strong word. My job is here.
>
Some of the most interesting women I've known were from Texas. It was
probably not coincidental that they created their "from" status at the
earliest possible date. ;-)

Neil

[Emily]

Neil Gould wrote:
> Recently, Emily > posted:
>
>> Bob Noel wrote:
>>> In article >,
>>> Emily > wrote:
>>>
>>>>> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
>>>>> anytime. With ease.
>>>>>
>>>> Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.
>>> That's probably my fault for mentioning that you are from Texas.
>>>
>> From is a strong word. My job is here.
>>
> Some of the most interesting women I've known were from Texas. It was
> probably not coincidental that they created their "from" status at the
> earliest possible date. ;-)

They might have considered themselves from Texas, but Texans are
notoriously bad about accepting outsiders.

[Bruce Riggs]

Emily wrote:
> Neil Gould wrote:
>> Recently, Emily > posted:
>>
>>> Bob Noel wrote:
>>>> In article >,
>>>> Emily > wrote:
>>>>
>>>>>> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
>>>>>> anytime. With ease.
>>>>>>
>>>>> Who said I love Texas? For future reference, I don't.
>>>> That's probably my fault for mentioning that you are from Texas.
>>>>
>>> From is a strong word. My job is here.
>>>
>> Some of the most interesting women I've known were from Texas. It was
>> probably not coincidental that they created their "from" status at the
>> earliest possible date. ;-)
>
> They might have considered themselves from Texas, but Texans are
> notoriously bad about accepting outsiders.
Texans are notoriously bad about accepting outsiders who bitch about the
circumstances that find them in Texas. If your job has placed you here
against your will, then that's not the fault of Texans.

I would CHOOSE no other state to live, but that's just me.

[Emily]

Bruce Riggs wrote:
<snip>

> Texans are notoriously bad about accepting outsiders who bitch about the
> circumstances that find them in Texas. If your job has placed you here
> against your will, then that's not the fault of Texans.
>
> I would CHOOSE no other state to live, but that's just me.

Well, I probably came off a little harsh. I did, obviously, choose to
move here and eventually would have even without the job. In fact,I
told my now boss at my interview that I was planning on staying in Texas
and would not move to the state our headquarters in located in (I know a
few of you know who I work for, so that shouldn't be a surprise!). I'm
not a Yankee (Navy brat who spent most of her time in the South), but
since I moved here from Chicago, I'm pegged as one in Texas. That
really bothers me.

[Grumman-581[_4_]]

On Oct 13, 6:16 am, John Theune > wrote:
> He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
> flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes.

Some of those simmers get pretty ****in' involved in creating a home
sim cockpit... Check this one out:
http://www.goflightinc.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=11

>From what I understand, some of these guys are actually running into
the limit of the number of USB devices that can be on a machine...

[Emily]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> On Oct 13, 6:16 am, John Theune > wrote:
>> He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
>> flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes.
>
> Some of those simmers get pretty ****in' involved in creating a home
> sim cockpit... Check this one out:
> http://www.goflightinc.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=11

WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than going on
an intro flight?

[cjcampbell]

Emily wrote:
> Thomas Borchert wrote:
> > John,
> >
> > He is an American living in PAris.
> >
> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
> in Paris? <g>

Well, it sounds like a good idea to me.

[cjcampbell]

John Theune wrote:
> He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
> flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes. He has made mention of
> a monthly income of 650.00 per month and his inability to earn more.
> However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
> subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge. I also
> understand that he is a frequent contributor to the photography groups.
> His answers are frequently wrong when it comes aviation matters but the
> bottom line is that he has a lot of knowledge. So the question is this:
> Is he truly a poor Frenchman who cannot make enough money to pursue
> flying or is he just spouting a line of bull? While no mention has been
> made of a physical issue that would prevent him from working, he has not
> made that a point as to why he will not fly planes, it's always been
> about the money. Things just don't add up.

Maybe not. He also seems to agree with Skylune on most everything.
Maybe not a sock puppet, but you have to wonder if there is a
relationship.

[Sylvain]

cjcampbell wrote:

>> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
>> in Paris? <g>
>
> Well, it sounds like a good idea to me.

I have a French passport (I was born, grown up, educated and currently
living in other countries, but I know the place a little bit and I speak
the language), but I assure you that France in general, and Paris in
particular, would be the very last place where I would choose to live.

--Sylvain

[Sylvain]

Emily wrote:

>> http://www.goflightinc.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=11
>
> WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than going on
> an intro flight?

it is probably a lot more expensive actually, but it is a different hobby.
I am still trying to grasp the concept myself, but some folks have no
interest in actually flying...

--Sylvain

[cjcampbell]

Sylvain wrote:
> cjcampbell wrote:
>
> >> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
> >> in Paris? <g>
> >
> > Well, it sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> I have a French passport (I was born, grown up, educated and currently
> living in other countries, but I know the place a little bit and I speak
> the language), but I assure you that France in general, and Paris in
> particular, would be the very last place where I would choose to live.

Personally, if I had to live in France, I would choose Corsica.
Otherwise, considering the weather, I might as well stay in Puget
Sound. :-) But Paris seemed to me pretty because it was sunny when I
was there.

[Dave Stadt]

"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
> cjcampbell wrote:
>
>>> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
>>> in Paris? <g>
>>
>> Well, it sounds like a good idea to me.
>
> I have a French passport (I was born, grown up, educated and currently
> living in other countries, but I know the place a little bit and I speak
> the language), but I assure you that France in general, and Paris in
> particular, would be the very last place where I would choose to live.
>
> --Sylvain

Been there for an extended stay and could not agree more.

[Jay Beckman]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:36:43 -0500, Bruce Riggs
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>I would CHOOSE no other state to live, but that's just me.
>
> I love living in California. It's just all those Californians I have
> to deal with.

Just be patient...

Eventually they'll all end up over here in Arizona and you'll have a little
more elbow room.

<Tongue --> Cheek [mostly]>

Jay B

[Greg Farris]

In article >,
says...
>
>
>
>"Sylvain" > wrote in message
t...
>> cjcampbell wrote:
>>
>>>> Well that explains it right there! What American would CHOOSE to live
>>>> in Paris? <g>
>>>
>>> Well, it sounds like a good idea to me.
>>
>> I have a French passport (I was born, grown up, educated and currently
>> living in other countries, but I know the place a little bit and I speak
>> the language), but I assure you that France in general, and Paris in
>> particular, would be the very last place where I would choose to live.
>>
>> --Sylvain
>
>Been there for an extended stay and could not agree more.
>
>


Outside of Paris, France is a very agricultural country - the biggest
agricultural base in Europe. So a statement like the above would tend to peg
you more as a farm person than a city person. Absolutely nothing wrong with
that - you probably don't have much good to say about New York either.

[Mxsmanic]

Grumman-581 writes:

> Some of those simmers get pretty ****in' involved in creating a home
> sim cockpit... Check this one out:
> http://www.goflightinc.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=11

A problem with very elaborate sims is that they must either become
more and more specific to a single aircraft, or they must become more
and more hokey (that is, so generic that they don't precisely
correspond to anything in real life). I'm not sure which is the
better goal, although a pilot who is keenly interested in one specific
aircraft (for example, the same one he flies in real life), might
prefer the former route.

To me, having a row of generic buttons for various things adds little
in the way of realism; having buttons that look and act and are
positioned just like those in a real aircraft adds a lot more. I
generally prefer just keyboard actions to buttons if the buttons are
just going to be generic.

> From what I understand, some of these guys are actually running into
> the limit of the number of USB devices that can be on a machine...

Unfortunately, that's not hard to do, with so many devices having USB
connections today. It's a bit like serial ports in the old days.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Emily writes:

> WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than going on
> an intro flight?

Yes, for total hours flown.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bob Noel]

In article >, Greg Farris >
wrote:

> Outside of Paris, France is a very agricultural country - the biggest
> agricultural base in Europe. So a statement like the above would tend to peg
> you more as a farm person than a city person. Absolutely nothing wrong with
> that - you probably don't have much good to say about New York either.

Lotsa nice farm land in New York. ;-)

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Greg Farris" > wrote in message
...
> you probably don't have much good to say about New York either.

Well, other than, "9/11 -- Couldn't have happened to a nicer town"...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Emily" > wrote in message
...
> but since I moved here from Chicago, I'm pegged as one in
> Texas. That really bothers me.

Buy yourself a pickup, put a couple of NRA stickers on your bumper and we'll
forgive ya'...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> I love living in California. It's just all those Californians I have
> to deal with.

Basically, "it's too nice of a state to be wasted on Californians"?

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

Greg Farris wrote:
>
> Outside of Paris, France is a very agricultural country - the biggest
> agricultural base in Europe. So a statement like the above would tend to peg
> you more as a farm person than a city person. Absolutely nothing wrong with
> that - you probably don't have much good to say about New York either.

France looks beautiful to me, at least from the Tour de France
helicopter video.

I'm looking forward to visiting one of these days.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:

> Emily writes:
>
>> WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than
>> going on an intro flight?
>
> Yes, for total hours flown.
>
Intro flights are typically well below $100. I don't think you'll get
anywhere near one of those setups for that amount, so the "hours flown" --
time during intro flight vs. the same amount of time in the sim -- would
be outrageously more expensive in the sim. And, at the end of the day,
you'd know a heck of a lot more about flying with the intro flight, so it
seems that the sim is money poorly spent either way if the ultimate goal
is to fly real planes.

Neil

[Owen[_4_]]

Neil Gould wrote:

> Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:
>
> > Emily writes:
> >
> >> WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than
> >> going on an intro flight?
> >
> > Yes, for total hours flown.
> >
> Intro flights are typically well below $100. I don't think you'll get
> anywhere near one of those setups for that amount, so the "hours flown" --
> time during intro flight vs. the same amount of time in the sim -- would
> be outrageously more expensive in the sim. And, at the end of the day,
> you'd know a heck of a lot more about flying with the intro flight, so it
> seems that the sim is money poorly spent either way if the ultimate goal
> is to fly real planes.

$100 in France?

[Thomas Borchert]

Owen,

> $100 in France?
>

Yes.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Richard Riley" > wrote in message
...
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:36:43 -0500, Bruce Riggs
> > wrote:
>
>>
>>I would CHOOSE no other state to live, but that's just me.
>
> I love living in California. It's just all those Californians I have
> to deal with.

Don't worry they're all moving to Oregon.

[Mxsmanic]

Neil Gould writes:

> Intro flights are typically well below $100.

I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated Baron, for
far less money than that.

> And, at the end of the day, you'd know a heck of a lot more about
> flying with the intro flight ...

I consider it extraordinarily unlikely that I could learn much of
anything during a 30-minute flight, unless I did everything from
taxiing out to taxiing back, plus some other stuff in between.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Owen writes:

> $100 in France?

Multiply everything by three for France.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:05:34 -0700, Sylvain wrote:

> but some folks have
> no interest in actually flying...

I've no interest in flying. I use my time in 172s and 182s to simulate
computing. I cannot afford a display of the same quality as the view
provided by the simulator simulation, so I must settle for actually going
places.

- Andrew

[Peter Clark]

On 15 Oct 2006 18:10:09 -0700, "Grumman-581" >
wrote:

>On Oct 13, 6:16 am, John Theune > wrote:
>> He has been posting quite a bit lately and a recurring theme has been he
>> flys sims because he can't afford to fly planes.
>
>Some of those simmers get pretty ****in' involved in creating a home
>sim cockpit... Check this one out:
>http://www.goflightinc.com/cgi-bin/ikonboard.cgi?;act=ST;f=9;t=11
>
>>From what I understand, some of these guys are actually running into
>the limit of the number of USB devices that can be on a machine...

Minor league compared to some.

You want to see touched, check out http://www.hyway.com.au/747/

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:

> Neil Gould writes:
>
>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>
> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated Baron, for
> far less money than that.
>
And it's worth exactly nothing in terms of knowing about flying a Baron.
If you're lucky, you may find where the switches and buttons are; the fact
is that they aren't always in the same place just because the plane is the
same model. But, you'd most likely kill yourself before you got off the
field.

>> And, at the end of the day, you'd know a heck of a lot more about
>> flying with the intro flight ...
>
> I consider it extraordinarily unlikely that I could learn much of
> anything during a 30-minute flight, unless I did everything from
> taxiing out to taxiing back, plus some other stuff in between.
>
I completely believe that you would learn very little, but that has more
to do with your attitude than the nature of the experience. One expecting
to learn nothing will most likely meet those expectations.

Neil

[Emily]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 19:05:34 -0700, Sylvain wrote:
>
>> but some folks have
>> no interest in actually flying...
>
> I've no interest in flying. I use my time in 172s and 182s to simulate
> computing. I cannot afford a display of the same quality as the view
> provided by the simulator simulation, so I must settle for actually going
> places.
>
> - Andrew
>
LMAO. What can you use to clean wine off of a notebook screen?

[Grumman-581[_4_]]

On Oct 15, 8:15 pm, Emily > wrote:
> WTF. And you're going to tell me that's cheaper or easier than going on
> an intro flight?

Probably depends upon what type of plane you want to be simming...
<grin> How much does an intro flight on a 737 go for?

I stumbled across that web page awhile back while looking for something
else (that's kind of how Google works, I guess)... Of course, it piqued
my interest a bit, so I read some more... Some of these guys are really
into it...

http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3573

[Dave Stadt]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Neil Gould writes:
>
>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>
> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated Baron, for
> far less money than that.

But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the air is worth
hundreds of hours behind a game.

[Tom Conner]

"Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
et...
>
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> ...
> > Neil Gould writes:
> >
> >> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
> >
> > I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
> > Baron, for far less money than that.
>
> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
>

Not to encourage the village idiot, but you are completely wrong.

Tell that to the military which makes extensive use of simulators. The Navy
uses MSFS to train new pilots.

"The Navy says that students who use Flight Simulator achieve "significantly
higher flight scores and fewer below-average and unsatisfactory flight
scores" than those who don't."

http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2000/prod0006.html

"Have you heard of Herb Lacy? In 1998, the ensign and U.S. Naval Academy
graduate saw a lifelong dream fulfilled when he was accepted into Naval
flight training. But Lacy, who had never flown an airplane, found himself at
a disadvantage in the extremely competitive program?many of his classmates
had previously received flight instruction, and some were certificated
pilots.

Lacy decided to level the playing field. He bought a copy of Microsoft's
Flight Simulator 98 and used software tools to create a representation of
the Beech T34C Mentor in which he would learn to fly. Lacy even added local
landmarks near Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas, to help him with
situational awareness. He spent more than 40 hours flying the customized
simulator before climbing into a Mentor cockpit.

His efforts were so successful that not only did Lacy graduate near the top
of his class, but the Navy investigated the idea of using computer gaming
software for training. An experiment showed that when pilot trainees
practiced with Flight Simulator, 54 percent more received above-average
flight scores. So the Navy decided to issue Flight Simulator 98?modified
with a software shell, much like Lacy's version to all of its flight
students."

http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/future0004.html

[Thomas Borchert]

Owen,

Despite what MS says, it is no problem at all to get a 100-$-intro ride
in France. Heck, if he asked nicely (yeah, right!), he'd probably get a
free ride. But that would shatter his world view now, would it?

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Tom Conner > posted:

> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> et...
>>
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> Neil Gould writes:
>>>
>>>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>>>
>>> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
>>> Baron, for far less money than that.
>>
>> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
>> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
>>
>
> Not to encourage the village idiot, but you are completely wrong.
>
> Tell that to the military which makes extensive use of simulators.
> The Navy uses MSFS to train new pilots.
>
(rest snipped for brevity)

Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong. The
Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point under
discussion here. MSFS can be quite useful as an adjunct to flight
training, and none of us have disagreed with that. In such usage, you can
simply chuckle at those things that MSFS gets wrong and move on. Without
flight training, you wind up with the kinds of notions and questions that
have been posted here recently.

Neil

[Dave Stadt]

"Tom Conner" > wrote in message
link.net...
>
> "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> et...
>>
>> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> ...
>> > Neil Gould writes:
>> >
>> >> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>> >
>> > I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
>> > Baron, for far less money than that.
>>
>> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
>> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
>>
>
> Not to encourage the village idiot, but you are completely wrong.
>
> Tell that to the military which makes extensive use of simulators. The
> Navy
> uses MSFS to train new pilots.
>
> "The Navy says that students who use Flight Simulator achieve
> "significantly
> higher flight scores and fewer below-average and unsatisfactory flight
> scores" than those who don't."
>
> http://www.aopa.org/members/files/pilot/2000/prod0006.html
>
> "Have you heard of Herb Lacy? In 1998, the ensign and U.S. Naval Academy
> graduate saw a lifelong dream fulfilled when he was accepted into Naval
> flight training. But Lacy, who had never flown an airplane, found himself
> at
> a disadvantage in the extremely competitive program?many of his classmates
> had previously received flight instruction, and some were certificated
> pilots.
>
> Lacy decided to level the playing field. He bought a copy of Microsoft's
> Flight Simulator 98 and used software tools to create a representation of
> the Beech T34C Mentor in which he would learn to fly. Lacy even added
> local
> landmarks near Naval Air Station Corpus Christi, Texas, to help him with
> situational awareness. He spent more than 40 hours flying the customized
> simulator before climbing into a Mentor cockpit.
>
> His efforts were so successful that not only did Lacy graduate near the
> top
> of his class, but the Navy investigated the idea of using computer gaming
> software for training. An experiment showed that when pilot trainees
> practiced with Flight Simulator, 54 percent more received above-average
> flight scores. So the Navy decided to issue Flight Simulator 98?modified
> with a software shell, much like Lacy's version to all of its flight
> students."
>
> http://www.aopa.org/pilot/features/future0004.html


Something significant went way over your head.

[Tom Conner]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
. ..
> Recently, Tom Conner > posted:
>
> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
> > et...
> >>
> >> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
> >> ...
> >>> Neil Gould writes:
> >>>
> >>>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
> >>>
> >>> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
> >>> Baron, for far less money than that.
> >>
> >> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
> >> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
> >>
> >
> > Not to encourage the village idiot, but you are completely wrong.
> >
> > Tell that to the military which makes extensive use of simulators.
> > The Navy uses MSFS to train new pilots.
> >
> (rest snipped for brevity)
>
> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong. The
> Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point under
> discussion here.

The poor reading comprehension skills of posters on this group never ceases
to amaze me. Nobody said the Navy is using MSFS in lieu of flight training.
I was responding to the completely wrong statement that "30 minutes in the
air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game."

[RK Henry]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 15:47:41 GMT, "Tom Conner" >
wrote:

>
>"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
. ..
>> Recently, Tom Conner > posted:
>>
>> > "Dave Stadt" > wrote in message
>> > et...
>> >>
>> >> "Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
>> >> ...
>> >>> Neil Gould writes:
>> >>>
>> >>>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>> >>>
>> >>> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
>> >>> Baron, for far less money than that.
>> >>
>> >> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
>> >> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
>> >>
>> >
>> > Not to encourage the village idiot, but you are completely wrong.
>> >
>> > Tell that to the military which makes extensive use of simulators.
>> > The Navy uses MSFS to train new pilots.
>> >
>> (rest snipped for brevity)
>>
>> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong. The
>> Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point under
>> discussion here.
>
>The poor reading comprehension skills of posters on this group never ceases
>to amaze me. Nobody said the Navy is using MSFS in lieu of flight training.
>I was responding to the completely wrong statement that "30 minutes in the
>air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game."

Except that I don't agree that the statement is "completely wrong." I
think the ratio is off, but I agree with both points of view.
Experience in the air is very different from experience in a simulator
and simulator experience isn't directly substitutable for flight
experience. However, many organizations have been using simulators for
years to augment training and, used properly, simulators can
accelerate training in specific areas and save a lot of fuel.

Now, can't we all get along?

RK Henry

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Tom Conner > posted:

> "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
>> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong.
>> The Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point
>> under discussion here.
>
> The poor reading comprehension skills of posters on this group never
> ceases to amaze me. Nobody said the Navy is using MSFS in lieu of
> flight training. I was responding to the completely wrong statement
> that "30 minutes in the air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game."
>
If that was the only comment you were responding to, then you should have
clipped the rest. The inclusion of other comments implies that you were
responding to *the post*, not some fragment therein, and it is quite
reasonable that a reader would assume as much. Reading comprehension is
helped by clear messages.

Neil

[Tom Conner]

"Neil Gould" > wrote in message
. ..
> Recently, Tom Conner > posted:
>
> > "Neil Gould" > wrote in message
> >> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely
> >> wrong. The Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training,
> >> the point under discussion here.
> >
> > The poor reading comprehension skills of posters on this group never
> > ceases to amaze me. Nobody said the Navy is using MSFS in lieu of
> > flight training. I was responding to the completely wrong statement
> > that "30 minutes in the air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game."
> >
> If that was the only comment you were responding to, then you should
> have clipped the rest. The inclusion of other comments implies that you
> were responding to *the post*, not some fragment therein, and it is quite
> reasonable that a reader would assume as much. Reading comprehension is
> helped by clear messages.
>

Okay. This is the entire post I responded to:

"
> >> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
> >
> > I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
> > Baron, for far less money than that.
>
> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
"

Again, reading comprehension in this group is abysmal. I wonder if it
carries over to the pilot population in general?

[Mxsmanic]

Neil Gould writes:

> And it's worth exactly nothing in terms of knowing about flying a Baron.

I disagree.

> If you're lucky, you may find where the switches and buttons are; the fact
> is that they aren't always in the same place just because the plane is the
> same model. But, you'd most likely kill yourself before you got off the
> field.

Here again, I disagree.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Dave Stadt writes:

> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the air is worth
> hundreds of hours behind a game.

Why?

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Neil Gould writes:

> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong. The
> Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point under
> discussion here.

That is not the point under discussion. Few simulators are suitable
for use in place of actual flight in the simulated aircraft. None
that don't include motion would be suitable.

> Without
> flight training, you wind up with the kinds of notions and questions that
> have been posted here recently.

Whereas with flight training, you become convinced that you know the
answers and never bother to ask.

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[Mxsmanic]

Grumman-581 writes:

> Probably depends upon what type of plane you want to be simming...
> <grin> How much does an intro flight on a 737 go for?
>
> I stumbled across that web page awhile back while looking for something
> else (that's kind of how Google works, I guess)... Of course, it piqued
> my interest a bit, so I read some more... Some of these guys are really
> into it...
>
> http://www.ch-hangar.com/forum/showthread.php?t=3573

Unfortunately, adding complexity without being faithful to real life
only drives the simulation further away from reality, rather than
towards it.

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[Mxsmanic]

Peter Clark writes:

> Minor league compared to some.
>
> You want to see touched, check out http://www.hyway.com.au/747/

At least that one seems like a more serious attempt, one that tries to
duplicate the real-life environment instead of just adding eye candy
and gadgets.

--
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[Dave Stadt]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt writes:
>
>> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the air is
>> worth
>> hundreds of hours behind a game.
>
> Why?

You would never understand.

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Tom Conner > posted:

> Okay. This is the entire post I responded to:
>
> "
>>>> Intro flights are typically well below $100.
>>>
>>> I've already logged nearly a hundred hours in my simulated
>>> Baron, for far less money than that.
>>
>> But you have not flown for even one minute. 30 minutes in the
>> air is worth hundreds of hours behind a game.
> "
>
> Again, reading comprehension in this group is abysmal. I wonder if it
> carries over to the pilot population in general?
>
Is it?

1) We are not mind readers. We can only base our understanding on what you
choose to present.

2) Although you now state that the above is the "entire post" you
responded to, it includes a comment to a previous post (mine regarding the
cost of intro flights). Therefore, it was reasonable to think that my
comment is somehow relevant. My comment had to do with the benefits of
actual flight experience in comparison to *only* sim time, as that is the
underlying subject of this thread.

3) It is reasonable to presume that responders to a thread are on-topic,
unless otherwise clarified. The original topic was established with the
comment, "While no mention has been made of a physical issue that would
prevent him from working, he has not made that a point as to why he will
not fly planes..." Your post was about people who *do* fly planes, and
thus my comment distinguishing between the original subject and your new
topic is apparently a correct interpretation.

4) According to your above statement, my comment is not relevant to your
point at all, and should have been excluded from your excerpt. Instead,
you went further and tied your post to the original topic with your
comment, "Not to encourage the village idiot..." To make matters worse,
you included my comment *again* in your current message. So, what about my
comment were you responding to, given that I don't see anything regarding
the cost of intro lessons?

If that is your idea of clear writing, then it's a small wonder that you
think that others can't read.

Neil

[Neil Gould]

Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:

> Neil Gould writes:
>
>> Sorry, but it's your usage of the example that is completely wrong.
>> The Navy is not using MSFS *in lieu* of flight training, the point
>> under discussion here.
>
> That is not the point under discussion.
>
AFICT, it's still about you not flying anything real. When and where did
that discussion change (your claim doesn't count)?

> Few simulators are suitable
> for use in place of actual flight in the simulated aircraft. None
> that don't include motion would be suitable.
>
Wrong, yet again. Pilots don't require motion to be able to use simulators
for many, if not most aviation scenarios. I can tell you that my time in a
Link trainer was not nearly as useful as my time in non-motion simulators
available today.

>> Without
>> flight training, you wind up with the kinds of notions and questions
>> that have been posted here recently.
>
> Whereas with flight training, you become convinced that you know the
> answers and never bother to ask.
>
Wrong, yet again. You have to learn the answers to the elementary
questions you're asking well prior to getting a certificate, and in our
flight school, well before you can even solo.

Neil

[Mxsmanic]

Neil Gould writes:

> AFICT, it's still about you not flying anything real. When and where did
> that discussion change (your claim doesn't count)?

It didn't. Nobody has ever suggested simulation in place of flight
training in a real aircraft, as far as I can recall.

> Wrong, yet again. Pilots don't require motion to be able to use simulators
> for many, if not most aviation scenarios.

If one intends to use simulation entirely in place of real flight to
prepare pilots to fly an actual aircraft without further practice or
instruction, a full-motion simulator is pretty much a necessity at
some point.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Dave Stadt writes:

> You would never understand.

There's nothing to understand. Thirty minutes is not worth hundreds
of hours of simulation in most contexts, unless, for example, one
wishes to die at the end of a spin, instead of surviving.

--
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[Kev]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> There's nothing to understand. Thirty minutes is not worth hundreds
> of hours of simulation in most contexts, unless, for example, one
> wishes to die at the end of a spin, instead of surviving.

It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
sim hours).

In one actual flight, you would understand:

1) Why trim is so important and thus why MSFS is so unrealistic.
2) What forces you feel when slipping or skidding.
3) What power vs attitude is all about.
4) How a GA plane is parked, etc.
5) What procedures are followed pre-take-off.
6) What real ATC is like.

And that's just scratching the surface! In other words, yes it would
be worth far far more than sim time, and sim time is only useful IMO if
you have real flight time.

Kev

[Emily]

Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>> Owen writes:
>>
>>> $100 in France?
>> Multiply everything by three for France.
>
> A C150 or C152 can be rented starting at ca 90 EUR/h here in Germany,
> about 140 EUR/h with instructor. France should be the same. Of course
> you don't have to do 60 mins.

140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
> your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
> everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
> your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
> sim hours).

I've been told this many times about many things over my lifetime, and
with only one or two exceptions, I've been told wrong. Perhaps such
experiences do dramatically change the viewpoints of many people, but
not me. My guess is that most people underestimate what I understand
in the absence of experiences similar to their own; they project.

--
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[Kev]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Kev writes:
> > It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
> > your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
> > everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
> > your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
> > sim hours).
>
> I've been told this many times about many things over my lifetime, and
> with only one or two exceptions, I've been told wrong. Perhaps such
> experiences do dramatically change the viewpoints of many people, but
> not me.

I guarantee that your view would change in this case. You see, almost
everyone who first flew, had misconceptions similar to yours. Use of
yoke, rudder, throttle, instruments, how to taxi, use the radio, heck
almost everything. A single ride can change a lot of that to one big
"aha!" of awakening. Especially the trim part. You'll see how
unrealistic a sim experience is in that respect.

> My guess is that most people underestimate what I understand
> in the absence of experiences similar to their own; they project.

Perhaps, but see above. What you're missing is that many others had a
similar experience.

While I think that you are very observant, your questions and
statements do make it abundantly clear that you overestimate what you
understand on this topic. You're basically at the point of someone who
knows how to ride a bicycle, and thinking that the experience is
equivalent to driving a car.

Kev

[Emily]

Kev wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> Kev writes:
>>> It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
>>> your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
>>> everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
>>> your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
>>> sim hours).
>> I've been told this many times about many things over my lifetime, and
>> with only one or two exceptions, I've been told wrong. Perhaps such
>> experiences do dramatically change the viewpoints of many people, but
>> not me.
>
> I guarantee that your view would change in this case. You see, almost
> everyone who first flew, had misconceptions similar to yours. Use of
> yoke, rudder, throttle, instruments, how to taxi, use the radio, heck
> almost everything. A single ride can change a lot of that to one big
> "aha!" of awakening.

I second that.

[Wizard of Draws[_2_]]

On 10/17/06 9:03 PM, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:

> Kev writes:
>
>> It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
>> your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
>> everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
>> your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
>> sim hours).
>
> I've been told this many times about many things over my lifetime, and
> with only one or two exceptions, I've been told wrong. Perhaps such
> experiences do dramatically change the viewpoints of many people, but
> not me. My guess is that most people underestimate what I understand
> in the absence of experiences similar to their own; they project.

Nearly everyone here has had experience with flight simulators (hundreds, if
not thousands of hours in my case) before they went on to climb into a real
cockpit.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Emily]

Wizard of Draws wrote:
> On 10/17/06 9:03 PM, in article ,
> "Mxsmanic" > wrote:
>
>> Kev writes:
>>
>>> It depends on what you're trying to understand. As much as I defend
>>> your asking naive questions about flight, it's also perfectly clear to
>>> everyone here that 30 minutes in a real airplane would utterly change
>>> your (mis)conceptions of flying (that you've gained over hundreds of
>>> sim hours).
>> I've been told this many times about many things over my lifetime, and
>> with only one or two exceptions, I've been told wrong. Perhaps such
>> experiences do dramatically change the viewpoints of many people, but
>> not me. My guess is that most people underestimate what I understand
>> in the absence of experiences similar to their own; they project.
>
> Nearly everyone here has had experience with flight simulators (hundreds, if
> not thousands of hours in my case) before they went on to climb into a real
> cockpit.

I never did. Then again, I've never been into computer games...not a
slam, just a statement. I did try both MSFS and the school's FTD when
i was working on my instrument, and kept crashing. Until then, my
instructor didn't know that the FTD had an ELT go off if it crashed.
<g> We decided that spending the money on the actual airplane was a
better use of time and money.

FWIW, I barely passed the sim section of driver's ed, too.

[Bob Noel]

In article <C15B0F89.9F11C%jeffbDELETEME@DELETEMETOOwizardofdr aws.com>,
Wizard of Draws > wrote:

> Nearly everyone here has had experience with flight simulators (hundreds, if
> not thousands of hours in my case) before they went on to climb into a real
> cockpit.

ahem... older pilots tend not to have sim experience of any value prior to
getting into a real cockpit. For example, I did my primary training in 1987.
MSFS was a horrible toy at that time. And my first flight was in 1973, when
a friend of my father got me hooked on flying with a xc in an arrow. Not
many sims available in 1973.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Dave Stadt]

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Dave Stadt writes:
>
>> You would never understand.
>
> There's nothing to understand. Thirty minutes is not worth hundreds
> of hours of simulation in most contexts, unless, for example, one
> wishes to die at the end of a spin, instead of surviving.

A half hour of real flight is worth eons of sitting behind a game.

> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Marty Shapiro]

Emily > wrote in news:9qWdnZhYJo4-
:

> Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>> :
>>
>>> Owen writes:
>>>
>>>> $100 in France?
>>> Multiply everything by three for France.
>>
>> A C150 or C152 can be rented starting at ca 90 EUR/h here in Germany,
>> about 140 EUR/h with instructor. France should be the same. Of course
>> you don't have to do 60 mins.
>
> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.

At 4:33 AM EDT, the excange rate quoted was 1 USD = 0.7974 Euro. That
makes 140 Euro = $175.57.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Emily]

Marty Shapiro wrote:
> Emily > wrote in news:9qWdnZhYJo4-
> :
>
>> Wolfgang Schwanke wrote:
>>> Mxsmanic > wrote in
>>> :
>>>
>>>> Owen writes:
>>>>
>>>>> $100 in France?
>>>> Multiply everything by three for France.
>>> A C150 or C152 can be rented starting at ca 90 EUR/h here in Germany,
>>> about 140 EUR/h with instructor. France should be the same. Of course
>>> you don't have to do 60 mins.
>> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.
>
> At 4:33 AM EDT, the excange rate quoted was 1 USD = 0.7974 Euro. That
> makes 140 Euro = $175.57.
>
Right...not that much higher. The way people talk, I was expecting well
over $200...kind of like renting a helicopter in the US.

[swag]

I believe that the "wrong math" citation that everyone is alluding to
was when he posited that if the probability of one engine failing was
1/1000 then a single engine plane's chance of turning into a glider was
1/1000, but a twin's chance of turning into a glider was 1/1000000,
although the chance of a twin losing an engine was 1/500. Our more
mathematically correct and esteemed colleagues cited the exact formula
(which would correct the 1/500 to 1/500- 1/1000000). I believe that
any engineer worth his salt would call the second term negligible.


John Theune wrote:
> Steve Foley wrote:
> > "John Theune" > wrote in message
> > news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...
> >
> >> However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
> >> subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge.
> >
> > I can't comment on his medical knowledge, but in the mathematical subjects I
> > recall, he applied the wrong formula for a given situation.
> >
> > Pretty mach the same thing he does in aviation matters.
> >
> >
> True, he was wrong there also, but he knew enough math to make it appear
> reasonable ( and wrong ) Not what I would expect from a minimum wage
> earning person. If he had that level of knowledge/training he should be
> able to get a better job. I know from what I've seen over the years at
> work the ability to be right is not required for getting a job, it's
> much more knowing the lingo. I'm sure you run into clueless people at
> work before also. One wonders how they keep their jobs but its not
> terrible surprising how they got them.
> Bottom line is I don't buy his line of poverty as a reason to not learn
> more about flying from a professional or even by himself from purchased
> book.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 20:09:26 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> Here again, I disagree.

Who cares? You've zero knowledge from which to come to your conclusion.
That you choose to disagree, despite a complete lack of knowledge, with
those that have the knowledge you lack is telling.

Stay aware from real airplanes. I've no doubt that your arrogance
combined with your distaste for actual knowledge and experience would
combine to kill you in short order.

And that, unfortunately, would be just another "black eye" for aviation.

- Andrew

[Al G[_1_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
>
> ahem... older pilots tend not to have sim experience of any value prior to
> getting into a real cockpit. For example, I did my primary training in
> 1987.
> MSFS was a horrible toy at that time. And my first flight was in 1973,
> when
> a friend of my father got me hooked on flying with a xc in an arrow. Not
> many sims available in 1973.
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

I agree with Bob. When I learned to fly the airplane didn't have
lights, they are electric, and electricity didn't come till later...

Al G

[Jon Woellhaf]

Emily has remarked a couple times about her inability to fly a MS-type
flight simulator without crashing it.

Emily,

I would be very interested to know how you'd do in a full motion simulator
like the airlines use.

Jon

[Sylvain]

Marty Shapiro wrote:

>> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.
>
> At 4:33 AM EDT, the excange rate quoted was 1 USD = 0.7974 Euro. That
> makes 140 Euro = $175.57.

one thing to note: although the rental prices tend to be much
higher in Europe, you are also more likely to find clubs that
provide instruction for free (instructors volunteering their
time); so training is not necessarily so much more expensive
as it might be in USA.

--Sylvain

[Mxsmanic]

Emily writes:

> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.

It is only slightly less than I earn in a week.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Andrew Gideon writes:

> Who cares?

Anyone who spends three paragraphs arguing about it.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> I guarantee that your view would change in this case.

People guaranteed me all sorts of things in the past, too. They were
still wrong.

> You see, almost everyone who first flew, had misconceptions
> similar to yours.

I heard this, too. A lot of people are stupid. But I'm not.

> Perhaps, but see above. What you're missing is that many others had a
> similar experience.

But I did not. I am atypical.

> While I think that you are very observant, your questions and
> statements do make it abundantly clear that you overestimate what you
> understand on this topic. You're basically at the point of someone who
> knows how to ride a bicycle, and thinking that the experience is
> equivalent to driving a car.

I've heard this before as well. After decades of giving people the
benefit of the doubt and being disappointed, I no longer believe it.
Sorry.

--
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[Mxsmanic]

Dave Stadt writes:

> A half hour of real flight is worth eons of sitting behind a game.

A half-hour is just a half-hour. Eons are eons.

--
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[Marty Shapiro]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Emily writes:
>
>> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.
>
> It is only slightly less than I earn in a week.
>

Hmmm. A teen age high school drop out earns significantly more than
that at an entry level position with McDonalds.

--
Marty Shapiro
Silicon Rallye Inc.

(remove SPAMNOT to email me)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Emily writes:
>
>> 140 an hour dual really isn't *that* much higher than in the US.
>
> It is only slightly less than I earn in a week.


With some training you could be advanced to burger flipper in a year or two.
Then you'll be rolling in cash.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Steve Foley[_1_]]

He also quoted an incorrect formula showing something less than 2 Gs in a 60
degree bank.


"swag" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> I believe that the "wrong math" citation that everyone is alluding to
> was when he posited that if the probability of one engine failing was
> 1/1000 then a single engine plane's chance of turning into a glider was
> 1/1000, but a twin's chance of turning into a glider was 1/1000000,
> although the chance of a twin losing an engine was 1/500. Our more
> mathematically correct and esteemed colleagues cited the exact formula
> (which would correct the 1/500 to 1/500- 1/1000000). I believe that
> any engineer worth his salt would call the second term negligible.
>
>
> John Theune wrote:
> > Steve Foley wrote:
> > > "John Theune" > wrote in message
> > > news:BAKXg.9272$ms1.6478@trndny05...
> > >
> > >> However I've also seen him write on detailed medical and mathematical
> > >> subjects and he has demonstrated a fair amount on knowledge.
> > >
> > > I can't comment on his medical knowledge, but in the mathematical
subjects I
> > > recall, he applied the wrong formula for a given situation.
> > >
> > > Pretty mach the same thing he does in aviation matters.
> > >
> > >
> > True, he was wrong there also, but he knew enough math to make it appear
> > reasonable ( and wrong ) Not what I would expect from a minimum wage
> > earning person. If he had that level of knowledge/training he should be
> > able to get a better job. I know from what I've seen over the years at
> > work the ability to be right is not required for getting a job, it's
> > much more knowing the lingo. I'm sure you run into clueless people at
> > work before also. One wonders how they keep their jobs but its not
> > terrible surprising how they got them.
> > Bottom line is I don't buy his line of poverty as a reason to not learn
> > more about flying from a professional or even by himself from purchased
> > book.
>

[Kev]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Kev writes:
> > I guarantee that your view would change in this case.
> People guaranteed me all sorts of things in the past, too. They were
> still wrong.
>
> > You see, almost everyone who first flew, had misconceptions
> > similar to yours.
> I heard this, too. A lot of people are stupid. But I'm not.

LOL. I actually can't decide if you're A) a computer program, B)
an 80 year who's stuck in his ways, or C) a 15 year old who's not very
socially adept.

Your income and naïveté point to all of them :-)

Ah well, I"m still hoping someone can take you for a flight someday.

Cheers, Kev

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 21:03:10 +0000, Neil Gould wrote:

>> Whereas with flight training, you become convinced that you know the
>> answers and never bother to ask.
>>
> Wrong, yet again. You have to learn the answers to the elementary
> questions you're asking well prior to getting a certificate, and in our
> flight school, well before you can even solo.

And even after once is licensed, one is still a student. Thus the
"license to learn" label.

- Andrew

[Andrew Gideon]

On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:52:40 -0700, Kev wrote:

> I guarantee that your view would change in this case.

That is a losing bet. You're assuming a personality interested in
learning. There's no evidence of that.

Rather, we see evidence of opinions formed with bad information and then
retained despite any contrary evidence. We see valuation of an opinion
formed from nothing but games as equivalent (or superior) to opinions
formed from actual experience.

I've no difficulty believing that nothing ever causes this poster to learn
anything that involves correcting misunderstandings.

- Andrew

[Kev]

Andrew Gideon wrote:
> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:52:40 -0700, Kev wrote:
>
> > I guarantee that your view would change in this case.
>
> That is a losing bet. You're assuming a personality interested in
> learning. There's no evidence of that.
>
> Rather, we see evidence of opinions formed with bad information and then
> retained despite any contrary evidence. We see valuation of an opinion
> formed from nothing but games as equivalent (or superior) to opinions
> formed from actual experience.

That describes virtually everyone the 'net, especially when it comes to
say, political arguments. Neither side often gives in and admits a
mistaken belief.

<big grin>

I think everyone's just frustrated, because they really want him to
understand.

Kev

[Emily]

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Emily has remarked a couple times about her inability to fly a MS-type
> flight simulator without crashing it.
>
> Emily,
>
> I would be very interested to know how you'd do in a full motion simulator
> like the airlines use.
>
> Jon
>
>

I've flown a full motion 727 sim a few times and did fairly well (this
was before I got my multi). Not within standards by any means, but I
never crashed it.

[Wizard of Draws[_2_]]

On 10/17/06 11:48 PM, in article
, "Bob Noel"
> wrote:

> In article <C15B0F89.9F11C%jeffbDELETEME@DELETEMETOOwizardofdr aws.com>,
> Wizard of Draws > wrote:
>
>> Nearly everyone here has had experience with flight simulators (hundreds, if
>> not thousands of hours in my case) before they went on to climb into a real
>> cockpit.
>
> ahem... older pilots tend not to have sim experience of any value prior to
> getting into a real cockpit. For example, I did my primary training in 1987.
> MSFS was a horrible toy at that time. And my first flight was in 1973, when
> a friend of my father got me hooked on flying with a xc in an arrow. Not
> many sims available in 1973.

How old do you have to be to be considered "older"?
FWIW, I was standing in the corner being punished when Kennedy was shot.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Mxsmanic]

Marty Shapiro writes:

> Hmmm. A teen age high school drop out earns significantly more than
> that at an entry level position with McDonalds.

In the United States, perhaps. In France, it works out about the
same. It's a job that pays minimum wage, and it is only part-time.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> With some training you could be advanced to burger flipper in a year or two.
> Then you'll be rolling in cash.

With a bit of offshoring, you could be in the same position in a year
or two.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Emily writes:

> I've flown a full motion 727 sim a few times and did fairly well (this
> was before I got my multi). Not within standards by any means, but I
> never crashed it.

That's just a video game. If you haven't flown the real thing, you
don't know anything about it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Wizard of Draws writes:

> How old do you have to be to be considered "older"?

Older than the person making the assertion.

> FWIW, I was standing in the corner being punished when Kennedy was shot.

I always wondered who really did it. Seems like a lenient punishment.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Jon Woellhaf]

Emily wrote
> I've flown a full motion 727 sim a few times and did fairly well (this was
> before I got my multi). Not within standards by any means, but I never
> crashed it.

Do you think that's because of the control force feedback, the motion, or
both?

[Emily]

Jon Woellhaf wrote:
> Emily wrote
>> I've flown a full motion 727 sim a few times and did fairly well (this was
>> before I got my multi). Not within standards by any means, but I never
>> crashed it.
>
> Do you think that's because of the control force feedback, the motion, or
> both?
>
>
Not sure that it's the motion...I think feedback is probably what helps.
I thought it might have something to do with me only using a keyboard
to play MSFS, but the FTD at the FBO had actual controls, so who knows.
It might also be a mindset....you know, in a large airline training
sim it's a lot easier to think that you're flying a real airplane.

Of course, I was practicing approaches, so I was ignoring the motion anyway.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>> With some training you could be advanced to burger flipper in a year or two.
>> Then you'll be rolling in cash.
>
> With a bit of offshoring, you could be in the same position in a year
> or two.


I'm already rolling in cash. I'm a registered nurse, remember? We're in very
high demand where I live. But if I ever decide to give up nursing, I'll
remember and treasure your career advice.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Emily]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>>> With some training you could be advanced to burger flipper in a year or two.
>>> Then you'll be rolling in cash.
>> With a bit of offshoring, you could be in the same position in a year
>> or two.
>
> I'm already rolling in cash. I'm a registered nurse, remember? We're in very
> high demand where I live. But if I ever decide to give up nursing, I'll
> remember and treasure your career advice.

Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.

[Dave Stadt]

"Kev" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Andrew Gideon wrote:
>> On Tue, 17 Oct 2006 18:52:40 -0700, Kev wrote:
>>
>> > I guarantee that your view would change in this case.
>>
>> That is a losing bet. You're assuming a personality interested in
>> learning. There's no evidence of that.
>>
>> Rather, we see evidence of opinions formed with bad information and then
>> retained despite any contrary evidence. We see valuation of an opinion
>> formed from nothing but games as equivalent (or superior) to opinions
>> formed from actual experience.
>
> That describes virtually everyone the 'net, especially when it comes to
> say, political arguments. Neither side often gives in and admits a
> mistaken belief.
>
> <big grin>
>
> I think everyone's just frustrated, because they really want him to
> understand.

I think the wish is more along the lines of him going away. With his
attitude he will never understand.

> Kev
>

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> I'm already rolling in cash.

Unless it is in hard physical assets of lasting value, don't depend on
it.

> I'm a registered nurse, remember? We're in very
> high demand where I live.

For now. But if you are offshored, that may change.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Emily" > wrote in message
. ..
> Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
> gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.

It would depend... How would you look in this?
http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/pinupgirlclothing_1919_31480987

<dirty-old-man-grin>

[Emily]

Grumman-581 wrote:
> "Emily" > wrote in message
> . ..
>> Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
>> gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.
>
> It would depend... How would you look in this?
> http://us.st11.yimg.com/us.st.yimg.com/I/pinupgirlclothing_1919_31480987
>
> <dirty-old-man-grin>
>
>
He. If nurses are only half as perverted as people in aviation, I'd be
in good shape.

[Sylvain]

Emily wrote:
> Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
> gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.

yes, but don't you have to hang around a whole bunch of sick
people as part of the job description?

--Sylvain

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>> I'm a registered nurse, remember? We're in very
>> high demand where I live.
>
> For now. But if you are offshored, that may change.



BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thanks for my laugh of the day. Apparently aviation isn't the
only subject you're ignorant of.




--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Emily wrote:
> He. If nurses are only half as perverted as people in aviation, I'd be
> in good shape.


Half? We're probably the most perverted people in polite society. No subject,
no matter how disgusting or secretion-based, is off-topic while people are
eating. We get to see all the things about people that they'd rather pretend
don't exist. Even George Bush probably has skid marks in his shorts; know what
I mean?

But irregardless of Numbnut's dire predictions, until someone in the United
States can be intubated from the other side of the ocean, my line of work is
probably safe. The only way to give hands-on care is to be on hand. I don't
see that changing in my lifetime.

So, bottom line... I make more on my coffee breaks than he does in a week. And
I only have to work 2 days a week. Life is good.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Sylvain wrote:
> Emily wrote:
>> Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
>> gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.
>
> yes, but don't you have to hang around a whole bunch of sick
> people as part of the job description?


What gave you that idea? I do paperwork. I send my tech in to do the dirty
work. <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Sylvain]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote:

> Half? We're probably the most perverted people in polite society. No
> subject, no matter how disgusting...

Try hanging around veterinarians, you might meet your match...

As for job being safe from offshoring, I still think my
plumber is the smartest guy I have met. Ok, you can't
do medical procedures from afar, but people are willing to
travel far to save quite a bit (and still get the same
quality of care -- medical tourism I believe they call
that); and with fast internet connections, how long do
you reckon it will take before we get our clearances all
the way from Bangalore?

--Sylvain

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
>
> I'm already rolling in cash. I'm a registered nurse, remember? We're in very
> high demand where I live.

I think you're in demand all over the US.

How do you offshore a nurse? <G>

[Sylvain]

B A R R Y wrote:

> How do you offshore a nurse? <G>

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Medical_tourism

--Sylvain

[Emily]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Sylvain wrote:
>> Emily wrote:
>>> Rub it in. I've been thinking ever since I graduated that I should have
>>> gotten a nursing degree. Hmm...maybe it's not too late.
>> yes, but don't you have to hang around a whole bunch of sick
>> people as part of the job description?
>
>
> What gave you that idea? I do paperwork. I send my tech in to do the dirty
> work. <G>
>
>
>
Hey, I can do paperwork. That's what I do now, and it's funny how many
people think I wrench.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Emily wrote:
>> What gave you that idea? I do paperwork. I send my tech in to do the dirty
>> work. <G>
>>
> Hey, I can do paperwork. That's what I do now, and it's funny how many
> people think I wrench.


I think you misspelled "wench". <G>



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> But irregardless of Numbnut's dire predictions, until someone in the United
> States can be intubated from the other side of the ocean, my line of work is
> probably safe.

There are many things that RNs do that do not require RN
qualifications. A person with much more summary training, at a much
lower salary, could do the same thing. In some cases regulatory
barriers exist, but such barriers can be removed.

> The only way to give hands-on care is to be on hand. I don't
> see that changing in my lifetime.

I know lots and lots of people who didn't see any change coming before
they lost their jobs.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! Thanks for my laugh of the day. Apparently aviation isn't the
> only subject you're ignorant of.

Famous last words. What a feeling of déjà vu this creates!

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> How do you offshore a nurse? <G>

The same way you offshore doctors. To some extent it is already being
done, for both doctors and nurses. A radiology consult offshored
costs only a few dollars, instead of a few hundred dollars in the US.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> I think you misspelled "wench". <G>

Damn, you beat me to it...

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"Thomas Borchert" > wrote in message
...
> I love Paris. Beats Dallas, Lubbock and even Austin (which I like)
> anytime. With ease.

Paris is a quiet little town... The good thing about Dallas though is how
close it is to the other well known cities... Only about 2.3 hours from
Paris... 3.3 hours from Moscow... 5 hours from London... 4 hours
from Berlin... 2 hours from New York... 2.5 hours from Boston...
6 hours from Los Angeles... 2.6 hours from Detroit... 6.6 hours from
San Diego... 6.5 hours from Miami...

Of course, this is just driving distances...

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:

> There are many things that RNs do that do not require RN
> qualifications. A person with much more summary training, at a much
> lower salary, could do the same thing. In some cases regulatory
> barriers exist, but such barriers can be removed.


Now you're going to lecture ME about NURSING? How do you even walk, with that
huge set of balls you possess?


>> The only way to give hands-on care is to be on hand. I don't
>> see that changing in my lifetime.
>
> I know lots and lots of people who didn't see any change coming before
> they lost their jobs.


Well, then, you can be the first to tell me "I told you so". In the meanwhile,
you'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath. Oh, yeah, and go cash my paycheck.
The damned things just keep piling up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> B A R R Y writes:
>
>> How do you offshore a nurse? <G>
>
> The same way you offshore doctors. To some extent it is already being
> done, for both doctors and nurses. A radiology consult offshored
> costs only a few dollars, instead of a few hundred dollars in the US.


Yeah... some Indian nurse will call my patient and tell them it's time for them
to change their IV and start their blood transfusion. I'm sure anybody in South
Carolina will easily be able to follow their instructions from the other side of
the earth.

My opinion of your intellect has not improved.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Emily]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN wrote:
> Emily wrote:
>>> What gave you that idea? I do paperwork. I send my tech in to do the dirty
>>> work. <G>
>>>
>> Hey, I can do paperwork. That's what I do now, and it's funny how many
>> people think I wrench.
>
>
> I think you misspelled "wench". <G>
>
>
>
Hmmm...that's one thing I don't think I've ever been accused of doing.
Have to work on that!

[Wizard of Draws[_2_]]

On 10/19/06 12:45 AM, in article ,
"Mxsmanic" > wrote:

>
> For now. But if you are offshored, that may change.

Offshoring is good. I can't begin to count how many clients I've worked with
that were overseas. I love taking jobs away from foreigners.
--
Jeff 'The Wizard of Draws' Bucchino

Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.wizardofdraws.com

More Cartoons with a Touch of Magic�
http://www.cartoonclipart.com

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> Now you're going to lecture ME about NURSING?

I'm just explaining how your profession, like virtually any other, can
be outsourced and offshored.

> Well, then, you can be the first to tell me "I told you so".

People who lose their jobs are already depressed enough; I don't
bother to tell them that.

> In the meanwhile, you'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath. Oh,
> yeah, and go cash my paycheck. The damned things just keep piling up.

Live for the moment. The one sure thing in the world is change.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> Yeah... some Indian nurse will call my patient and tell them it's time for them
> to change their IV and start their blood transfusion. I'm sure anybody in South
> Carolina will easily be able to follow their instructions from the other side of
> the earth.

Rest assured, a lot of people have thought this through a lot more
than you seem to have done. There may be surprises in the future.

> My opinion of your intellect has not improved.

It's a question of experience, not intellect.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Mxsmanic wrote:
>> My opinion of your intellect has not improved.
>
> It's a question of experience, not intellect.


My opinion of your experience was even lower. You shouldn't have brought it up.



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in message
...
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>
>> There are many things that RNs do that do not require RN
>> qualifications. A person with much more summary training, at a much
>> lower salary, could do the same thing. In some cases regulatory
>> barriers exist, but such barriers can be removed.
>
>
> Now you're going to lecture ME about NURSING? How do you even walk, with
> that huge set of balls you possess?
>
>
>>> The only way to give hands-on care is to be on hand. I don't
>>> see that changing in my lifetime.
>>
>> I know lots and lots of people who didn't see any change coming before
>> they lost their jobs.
>
>
> Well, then, you can be the first to tell me "I told you so". In the
> meanwhile, you'll excuse me if I don't hold my breath. Oh, yeah, and go
> cash my paycheck. The damned things just keep piling up.
>

Add to that your check is probably a little larger than the Manic's
$637/week.

[Mxsmanic]

Mortimer Schnerd, RN writes:

> My opinion of your experience was even lower. You shouldn't
> have brought it up.

Why not? Your opinion need not be correlated with reality, and
certainly does not effect it.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Judah]

"Mortimer Schnerd, RN" <mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com> wrote in
:

> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> B A R R Y writes:
>>
>>> How do you offshore a nurse? <G>
>>
>> The same way you offshore doctors. To some extent it is already being
>> done, for both doctors and nurses. A radiology consult offshored
>> costs only a few dollars, instead of a few hundred dollars in the US.
>
>
> Yeah... some Indian nurse will call my patient and tell them it's time
> for them to change their IV and start their blood transfusion. I'm sure
> anybody in South Carolina will easily be able to follow their
> instructions from the other side of the earth.

Sure... All they need to do is change the human body to have easily
removable and changable parts, like Dell did with screwless and easily
removable skins, hard drives, and controller cards. Then you can call a
company in India, and say, "I would like to remove this brain tumor." And
they will say, "Your approximate hold time will be ... 7 minutes ..."

Eventually, they will say, "Please lift the skin tab under your left ear.
Now pull the plastic lever attached to your cranial lobe until the lobe
easily swivels off the base. Be careful not to dislodge the cerebral
cortex, as this could cause failed reflexes or total paralysis..."

Of course, the toughest part will be putting it all back together. After
all, every time I do it on a Dell PC, there are parts left on the table
that somehow didn't seem to make it back in... I'm never 100% sure if they
weren't really necessary. Hopefully if you finish removing your brain tumor
and can't seem to remember anything longer than 10 minutes, you will have
been smart enough to let a loved one know that you were planning this brain
tumor removal in your living room, and they will be able to call back for
you and let them know that you managed to disconnect your cerebrum from the
rest of the brain and provide additional instructions. Hopefully you wrote
the number down in advance, since you won't remember it.

How exactly do you reboot, though?

:)

[Mortimer Schnerd, RN[_2_]]

Judah wrote:
> How exactly do you reboot, though?



It's called a "code blue" or "code alpha" or even a "Dr. Heart".



--
Mortimer Schnerd, RN
mschnerdatcarolina.rr.com