AS/MEL now need ATC permission over East River

[Gary Drescher]

!FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.

Also NYT:
http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en=7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage

--Gary

[Gary Drescher]

This restriction strikes me as semi-reasonable, since many or most pilots
(including me) already considered the East River U-turn (surrounded by dense
traffic) to be too risky to fly there. Now, ATC can ensure that you don't
fly up the river unless they're going to clear you to continue all the way.
(Helicopters and seaplanes are properly excluded from the restriction.)

The main problem I see is that the new restriction starts at the southwest
tip of Governor's Island instead of the northeast tip. That seems like an
unnecessary complication to navigation there, especially since it forces
pilots flying past to descend to 1100' instead of remaining just below
1500'. Perhaps that part of the rule can be changed. (skyvector.com)

--Gary

> !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
> FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
> FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
> SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
> FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
> ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
> CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
> GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
>
> Also NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en=7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[[email protected]]

This a change that I can live with. This just moved the end of the
"canyon" to the SW end of Roosevelt Island. This means that you can
still fly up the East river to almost Central Park. The Hudson corridor
is unaffected, plus, similar rules have not been put up over several
other large US cities. I think GA pilots should accept this graciously
as it does little to our right to fly, and may quiet the calls to ban
GA from flying over cities. That was a tight turn anyway. I think we
got off easy.

Bud

Gary Drescher wrote:
> This restriction strikes me as semi-reasonable, since many or most pilots
> (including me) already considered the East River U-turn (surrounded by dense
> traffic) to be too risky to fly there. Now, ATC can ensure that you don't
> fly up the river unless they're going to clear you to continue all the way.
> (Helicopters and seaplanes are properly excluded from the restriction.)
>
> The main problem I see is that the new restriction starts at the southwest
> tip of Governor's Island instead of the northeast tip. That seems like an
> unnecessary complication to navigation there, especially since it forces
> pilots flying past to descend to 1100' instead of remaining just below
> 1500'. Perhaps that part of the rule can be changed. (skyvector.com)
>
> --Gary
>
> > !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
> > FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
> > FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
> > SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
> > FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
> > ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
> > CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
> > GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
> >
> > Also NYT:
> > http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en=7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
> FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
> FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
> SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
> FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
> ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
> CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
> GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
>
> Also NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en
> =7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>
> --Gary

yep - ATC will prevent stupid pilot tricks. yeah, that's the ticket. Just what
we need.

:-(

Are we going to have ATC tell us we can't fly because we'll exceed the
max demonstrated crosswind?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[me[_1_]]

I also agree that it seems reasonable and makes sense considering the
difficulty of that airspace and the turn around.

Now if this type of solution could have been the focus of all the countless
blabbering media and politicians... But that would just make to much sense..




"Gary Drescher" > wrote in message
. ..
> !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
> FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
> FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
> SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
> FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
> ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
> CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
> GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
>
> Also NYT:
> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en=7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>
> --Gary
>
>

[me[_1_]]

Bob,

With respect.. The reason this will help is that when flying up that part
of the river while talking to atc they will be able to clear you into the
class b and LGA's airspace with out getting stuck in the canyon and not
being in a position to make the narrow turn to try and stay out of the class
b.

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >,
> "Gary Drescher" > wrote:
>
>> !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
>> FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
>> FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
>> SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
>> FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
>> ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
>> CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
>> GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
>>
>> Also NYT:
>> http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en
>> =7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>>
>> --Gary
>
> yep - ATC will prevent stupid pilot tricks. yeah, that's the ticket.
> Just what
> we need.
>
> :-(
>
> Are we going to have ATC tell us we can't fly because we'll exceed the
> max demonstrated crosswind?
>
> --
> Bob Noel
> Looking for a sig the
> lawyers will hate
>

[Bob Noel]

In article >, "me" > wrote:

> With respect.. The reason this will help is that when flying up that part
> of the river while talking to atc they will be able to clear you into the
> class b and LGA's airspace with out getting stuck in the canyon and not
> being in a position to make the narrow turn to try and stay out of the class
> b.

If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a requirement
for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.

Bottomline: rules/regulations should say what they want. Regulation by
hoping and hinting almost always fails and have unintended adverse
side-effects.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Gary Drescher]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
> In article >, "me" > wrote:
>
>> With respect.. The reason this will help is that when flying up that
>> part
>> of the river while talking to atc they will be able to clear you into the
>> class b and LGA's airspace with out getting stuck in the canyon and not
>> being in a position to make the narrow turn to try and stay out of the
>> class
>> b.
>
> If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a
> requirement
> for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.

Perhaps exceptions can be made at the controller's discretion (for example,
in the case of a slower plane with a small turning radius).

> Bottomline: rules/regulations should say what they want. Regulation by
> hoping and hinting almost always fails and have unintended adverse
> side-effects.

Why deny the controller some reasonable flexibility in this situation?

--Gary

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"Gary Drescher" > wrote:

> > If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a
> > requirement
> > for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.
>
> Perhaps exceptions can be made at the controller's discretion (for example,
> in the case of a slower plane with a small turning radius).

Why ATC? Why shouldn't the responsibility be on the PIC?

> > Bottomline: rules/regulations should say what they want. Regulation by
> > hoping and hinting almost always fails and have unintended adverse
> > side-effects.
>
> Why deny the controller some reasonable flexibility in this situation?

I'm not. I'm questioning the reasoning behind the rule. I'm looking
for a logical justification for the rule and hoping that the rule it isn't
just a knee-jerk reaction.

And why deny the PIC his responsibility in this situation?

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Steven P. McNicoll[_1_]]

"Bob Noel" > wrote in message
...
>
> If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a
> requirement
> for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.
>

Then what would be the purpose of the corridor?

[Gary Drescher]

> wrote in message
oups.com...
> This a change that I can live with. This just moved the end of the
> "canyon" to the SW end of Roosevelt Island. This means that you can
> still fly up the East river to almost Central Park.

No, you misread the TFR and my summary. The restriction extends to the
southwest tip of Governor's Island, not just Roosevelt Island. I think the
northeast tip of Governor's Island would make more sense.

--Gary

> Gary Drescher wrote:
>> This restriction strikes me as semi-reasonable, since many or most pilots
>> (including me) already considered the East River U-turn (surrounded by
>> dense
>> traffic) to be too risky to fly there. Now, ATC can ensure that you don't
>> fly up the river unless they're going to clear you to continue all the
>> way.
>> (Helicopters and seaplanes are properly excluded from the restriction.)
>>
>> The main problem I see is that the new restriction starts at the
>> southwest
>> tip of Governor's Island instead of the northeast tip. That seems like an
>> unnecessary complication to navigation there, especially since it forces
>> pilots flying past to descend to 1100' instead of remaining just below
>> 1500'. Perhaps that part of the rule can be changed. (skyvector.com)
>>
>> --Gary
>>
>> > !FDC 6/3495 ZNY EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY UNTIL FURTHER NOTICE, VFR
>> > FLIGHT OPERATIONS INVOLVING FIXED WING AIRCRAFT (EXCLUDING AMPHIBIOUS
>> > FIXED WING AIRCRAFT LANDING OR DEPARTING NEW YORK SKYPORTS INC
>> > SEAPLANE BASE) IN THE EAST RIVER CLASS B EXCLUSION AREA EXTENDING
>> > FROM THE SOUTHWESTERN TIP OF GOVERNORS ISLAND TO THE NORTH TIP OF
>> > ROOSEVELT ISLAND, ARE PROHIBITED UNLESS AUTHORIZED AND BEING
>> > CONTROLLED BY ATC. TO OBTAIN AUTHORIZATION CONTACT LGA ATCT SOUTH OF
>> > GOVERNORS ISLAND ON 126.05.
>> >
>> > Also NYT:
>> > http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/nyregion/13wire-crash.html?hp&ex=1160798400&en=7fbffc592fc3b815&ei=5094&partner=homepage
>

[Ron Natalie]

Bob Noel wrote:
> In article >, "me" > wrote:
>
>> With respect.. The reason this will help is that when flying up that part
>> of the river while talking to atc they will be able to clear you into the
>> class b and LGA's airspace with out getting stuck in the canyon and not
>> being in a position to make the narrow turn to try and stay out of the class
>> b.
>
> If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a requirement
> for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.
>
You can't get a class B clearance outside the class B. Changing the
class B limits actually has a bit more of a sham procedure the FAA
must go through. Issuing random TFR restictions like this can be
done on a mere whim.

[Bob Noel]

In article .net>,
"Steven P. McNicoll" > wrote:

> > If that's the reason, then they should make a class b clearance a
> > requirement
> > for fixed-wing aircraft operating in that corridor.
> >
>
> Then what would be the purpose of the corridor?

bingo.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 11:58:18 -0400, Ron Natalie wrote:

> You can't get a class B clearance outside the class B. Changing the class
> B limits actually has a bit more of a sham procedure the FAA must go
> through. Issuing random TFR restictions like this can be done on a mere
> whim.

The TFR also permits the rotary exception.

Discrimination against the fixer-wingers, if you ask me. All because we
can't hover w/o a helping headwind.

- Andrew