Pushback for small planes

[Mxsmanic]

In simulation, I note that I'm apparently expected to have my plane
pushed back from its parking place before I start the engines and
taxi, judging from the way the aircraft are parked (with very little
room to turn around on their own). Are real small aircraft tugged and
pushed back, or do you just start the engines and move out under your
own power?

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[Dan[_1_]]

Mxsmaniac,

Where are you located. Has anyone taken you up in a real GA plane?

--Dan


Mxsmanic wrote:
> In simulation, I note that I'm apparently expected to have my plane
> pushed back from its parking place before I start the engines and
> taxi, judging from the way the aircraft are parked (with very little
> room to turn around on their own). Are real small aircraft tugged and
> pushed back, or do you just start the engines and move out under your
> own power?
>
> --
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[Mxsmanic]

B A R R Y writes:

> Small aircraft are typically parked nose out, or with room to get out.
> You start it up and move out.

OK. How do you park it, in that case?

> If you're in a hanger, you pull it out, by hand or with some sort of
> mini-tug, set it 90 degrees to the hanger, and start it up.

Are small aircraft easy to pull or push by hand (as compared to a
car)?

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[Mxsmanic]

Dan writes:

> Where are you located.

Paris, France.

> Has anyone taken you up in a real GA plane?

No.

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[Jim Macklin]

Sometimes you can back the airplane under its own power,
just like the airliners do. The King Air backs up nicely.
But since you have to trust that nobody parked a car behind
you after your walk-around, I don't do that unless I'm on a
taxiway or run-up pad and need to change heading, such as
when swinging a compass.



"B A R R Y" > wrote in
message ...
| On Sun, 15 Oct 2006 01:15:20 +0200, Mxsmanic
>
| wrote:
|
| >B A R R Y writes:
| >
| >> Small aircraft are typically parked nose out, or with
room to get out.
| >> You start it up and move out.
| >
| >OK. How do you park it, in that case?
|
| You either rotate on one brake into a spot, or push it
back into the
| space with a towbar.
|
| >Are small aircraft easy to pull or push by hand (as
compared to a
| >car)?
|
| Yes. They're often like pushing a light car that's out of
gear.

[Sylvain]

B A R R Y wrote:
>
> Small aircraft are typically parked nose out, or with room to get out.
> You start it up and move out.

lucky you! I got to push and pull the dang thing, or find
someone to help me; and for some reason, it always seem to be
going uphill. It is not always possible to taxi right off
parking for a number of reasons: for instance there might be
other aircraft parked nearby or behind, and it's not considered
good manners to blast gravel and dirt onto other aircraft,
and/or you might prefer controlling more precisely the
manoeuver. Some places ban the practice outright. Not being
very mobile this is the most difficult part of the exercise (I
know that I would fly more often at night -- when there are
fewer people that can be drafted as pushers/pullers -- if
that was not an issue); There exist some mechanized or
motorized tow-bars but they are awfully expensive; I know
how to convert old self propelled lawn mowers that would do
the job easily, but I haven't been able to 'sell' the idea
where I fly... that's probably what I'll do when I get to
own an aircraft.

--Sylvain

[Robert M. Gary]

Its considered bad for to "power" out of parking because it throws rock
on the plane next to you. Generally you pull the plane out before
starting the engine. Some people use tugs but most use a tow bar and
pull it. Its not very heavy unless you have to go up hill. Its about
like pulling an economy car by hand.

-Robert

Mxsmanic wrote:
> In simulation, I note that I'm apparently expected to have my plane
> pushed back from its parking place before I start the engines and
> taxi, judging from the way the aircraft are parked (with very little
> room to turn around on their own). Are real small aircraft tugged and
> pushed back, or do you just start the engines and move out under your
> own power?
>
> --
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[Neil Gould]

Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:

> In simulation, I note that I'm apparently expected to have my plane
> pushed back from its parking place before I start the engines and
> taxi, judging from the way the aircraft are parked (with very little
> room to turn around on their own). Are real small aircraft tugged and
> pushed back, or do you just start the engines and move out under your
> own power?
>
It depends on what's around you. Moving a small plane is not a big deal,
and it's better to be safe than to ding something because of laziness. You
do have to use some common sense in these matters.

Neil

[Mxsmanic]

Neil Gould writes:

> It depends on what's around you. Moving a small plane is not a big deal,
> and it's better to be safe than to ding something because of laziness. You
> do have to use some common sense in these matters.

I notice that my (simulated) Baron has negative pitch adjustment
available, below the feather position. Does this mean reverse thrust,
or what? I tried setting it to -25 on the ramp with the engines
running, and each time I tried it, the engine stalled a few seconds
later. Am I supposed to be able to go backwards in a Baron? Is this
setting for reverse thrust on landing, or what? Or does it even mean
reverse thrust?

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[Neil Gould]

Recently, Mxsmanic > posted:

> Neil Gould writes:
>
>> It depends on what's around you. Moving a small plane is not a big
>> deal, and it's better to be safe than to ding something because of
>> laziness. You do have to use some common sense in these matters.
>
> I notice that my (simulated) Baron has negative pitch adjustment
> available, below the feather position. Does this mean reverse thrust,
> or what? I tried setting it to -25 on the ramp with the engines
> running, and each time I tried it, the engine stalled a few seconds
> later. Am I supposed to be able to go backwards in a Baron? Is this
> setting for reverse thrust on landing, or what? Or does it even mean
> reverse thrust?
>
Could it be just another thing that MSFS gets wrong? Why not start a new
thread with this question so that you can get an answer from a Baron pilot
that you can then ignore and argue with?

Neil

[Mike 'Flyin'8']

I either can power up and pull out, or I have to push it back on my
own. Depends on how the aircraft is parked. Noone has ever pushed it
back for me.

On Sat, 14 Oct 2006 23:14:47 +0200, Mxsmanic >
wrote:

>In simulation, I note that I'm apparently expected to have my plane
>pushed back from its parking place before I start the engines and
>taxi, judging from the way the aircraft are parked (with very little
>room to turn around on their own). Are real small aircraft tugged and
>pushed back, or do you just start the engines and move out under your
>own power?


Mike Alexander
PP-ASEL
Temecula, CA
See my online aerial photo album at
http://flying.4alexanders.com

[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> B A R R Y writes:
>
>> Small aircraft are typically parked nose out, or with room to get out.
>> You start it up and move out.
>
> OK. How do you park it, in that case?

When parked outside you usually can swing all the way into the space
or taxi parked pointed out just in front of your space and then it's
pretty easy to push it back.

In hangars you usually just get close and then either push or use
a small tug to move it. In my case, my truck is usually parked
inside my hangar when I am not there, so I park the plane at about
a 45 degree angle so the truck can clear the tail and then I use
a little powered tow bar (it uses a cordless drill as it's mostive
force) to bring it back in.

I use the tow bar to pull it out before starting up (my hangar is
a little tight so it's easier to preflight pulled out as well).

A friend of mine who has a hangar next to his house just taxis into the
hangar. He pushes (it's a very small plane) it before engine start.

>
>> If you're in a hanger, you pull it out, by hand or with some sort of
>> mini-tug, set it 90 degrees to the hanger, and start it up.
>
> Are small aircraft easy to pull or push by hand (as compared to a
> car)?
>

Most planes can be moved by hand. My Navion is a pig on the ground.
It's 2000 lbs. empty and has really big squishy tires so to push it
it has to be fairly level. I can step on the tail skid and lift
the nose gear and spin it around however. My hangar has a slight
incline going into it (you want this so that rain and snow drains
away from the doors). It takes me pushing with all my might to
get it back in without the tug.

[Ron Natalie]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> Sometimes you can back the airplane under its own power,
> just like the airliners do. The King Air backs up nicely.
> But since you have to trust that nobody parked a car behind
> you after your walk-around, I don't do that unless I'm on a
> taxiway or run-up pad and need to change heading, such as
> when swinging a compass.
>
I don't know how well it works on the ground, but seabees back
nicely under power on the water.

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Neil Gould writes:
>
> > It depends on what's around you. Moving a small plane is not a big deal,
> > and it's better to be safe than to ding something because of laziness. You
> > do have to use some common sense in these matters.
>
> I notice that my (simulated) Baron has negative pitch adjustment
> available, below the feather position. Does this mean reverse thrust,
> or what? I tried setting it to -25 on the ramp with the engines
> running, and each time I tried it, the engine stalled a few seconds
> later. Am I supposed to be able to go backwards in a Baron? Is this
> setting for reverse thrust on landing, or what? Or does it even mean
> reverse thrust?

Sounds very odd since I've never seen a Baron that allowed you to
directly set the pitch of the prop. Maybe some strange MSFS thing.
-Robert, CFII

[John Clear]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:
>
>Are small aircraft easy to pull or push by hand (as compared to a
>car)?

My kids (7,5,5) have no problem pushing the plane back into the
tiedown. I just steer with the towbar and keep the plane from
going too fast.

http://www.clear-prop.org/images/kidsfly.jpg

John
--
John Clear - http://www.clear-prop.org/

[EridanMan]

> OK. How do you park it, in that case?

I think the piece of information that you're missing is that most small
planes have a bar which connects to the front gear that allows you to
pull/steer the plane into any position you need... it can be somewhat
combersome if the ground isn't flat... but you get used to it pretty
quickly.

In either case, yes you do block the parking taxiway for a few
minutes... but this is rarely an issue.

> Are small aircraft easy to pull or push by hand (as compared to a
> car)?

It's plenty easy... as long as you don't forget to release the parking
brake like I did today.

Pushing a plane is easy, just make sure you don't push the spinner, or
if you put preassure on the prop, its balanced. It can be kinda
difficult to back an airplane into a spot, you generally have to look
underneath the plane, or under one wing then the other, to make sure
you line up correctly with the tiedowns... Fortunately, the former
tenent at my tiedown hand-spraypainted the tiedown centerline out 30 or
so feet in front of the parking spot, which makes life _much_ easier...
(I'm sure it wasn't legal, but I didn't do it;))

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[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> Sounds very odd since I've never seen a Baron that allowed you to
> directly set the pitch of the prop. Maybe some strange MSFS thing.

There's a lever marked P on the throttle pedestal. It is present in
real aircraft also, and it has an effect on RPM. I suppose it
actually sets target RPM with automatic pitch adjustment, but what
does it do when you pull it back past the position that feathers the
props, and why does this stop the engine (at least in simulation)?

Since this sort of thing requires extra effort to simulate, I assume
it's not an artifact, and it must represent something in the real
aircraft.

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[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > Sounds very odd since I've never seen a Baron that allowed you to
> > directly set the pitch of the prop. Maybe some strange MSFS thing.
>
> There's a lever marked P on the throttle pedestal. It is present in
> real aircraft also, and it has an effect on RPM. I suppose it
> actually sets target RPM with automatic pitch adjustment, but what
> does it do when you pull it back past the position that feathers the
> props, and why does this stop the engine (at least in simulation)?

P=Prop RPM, not pitch of prop

I'm not sure what MSFS is trying to simulate. Usually when you pull the
prop lever back beyond feather the lever breaks off. The props are
stopping because they are feathered.

-Robert, CFII

[Mxsmanic]

Robert M. Gary writes:

> I'm not sure what MSFS is trying to simulate. Usually when you pull the
> prop lever back beyond feather the lever breaks off. The props are
> stopping because they are feathered.

MSFS indicates a range from +100% to -25%. I'm trying to figure out
what the negative numbers below the feather position indicate. It's
hard to see what the prop blades are doing (although their movements
are simulated).

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[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"B A R R Y" > wrote in message
...
> Small aircraft are typically parked nose out, or with room to get out.
> You start it up and move out.

Since my Grumman has a castering nosewheel, I like the fact that I can just
head into a parking space, lock one wheel, and pivot about until I'm facing
out from the parking spot... Yeah, it's probably a bit of a show off towards
those lowly Cessna pilots, but they get the last laugh when I have to land
without brakes on one side... <grin>

> If you're in a hanger, you pull it out, by hand or with some sort of
> mini-tug, set it 90 degrees to the hanger, and start it up.

On my aircraft, I can fit into my hangar either nose first or tail first...
I use an ATV for a tug and there's enough room to pull it in nose first and
leave the ATV hooked up so that I then back it out the next time I want to
fly... If the hangar didn't have a nice lip of concrete at the door opening
and an incline from the taxi area to the edge of the hangar foundation, I
wouldn't need the ATV... Pushing it by hand, I just can't quite get it far
enough up to speed that it can hop that concrete lip...

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Grumman-581" > wrote

> Pushing it by hand, I just can't quite get it far
> enough up to speed that it can hop that concrete lip...

Why not get someone with a table saw to rip a piece of wood with a long slope on
it, like a ramp, to make an easy transition onto the floor?
--
Jim in NC

[Robert M. Gary]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Robert M. Gary writes:
>
> > I'm not sure what MSFS is trying to simulate. Usually when you pull the
> > prop lever back beyond feather the lever breaks off. The props are
> > stopping because they are feathered.
>
> MSFS indicates a range from +100% to -25%. I'm trying to figure out
> what the negative numbers below the feather position indicate. It's
> hard to see what the prop blades are doing (although their movements
> are simulated).

Usually, if the blades do "reverse" for the purpose of slowing during
landing it will be on the throttle. Some planes have a "beta" position
for the blades that make them push air rather than pull it. It usually
involves moving the throttle past the idle stop and up and over the
stop and then further back. Pulling the prop lever back would not be a
good design to put the blades in beta. I've not heard of Baron's
having a Beta position, usually you only see that with turbo prop
engines, like in a King Air.

-Robert

[Ben Hallert]

I used to rent a plane with a sweet parking spot at Santa Monica
airport. It was a Cherokee (N8258S) that parked in the lower
southeast. It was parked with the tail a few feel from a cyclone fence
and faced outwards into the taxi lane. You'd start up and taxi
straight out without having the pull the plane anywhere.

The magic part about the parking spot was putting it back. I'd taxi
down to in front of the parking spot, do a neat partial pirouette so
the plane was facing outwards, then shut down the engine. The parking
was a very slight hill, so the plane would slowly roll backwards into
its parking spot. I'd steer it as needed with the rudder, then slow it
gently with the brakes (it never got over 1mph) when it was about time
to stop. The wheels would drop down into the slight depression in the
asphalt they'd made over the years and no further brake pressue was
required. No parking brake needed, no crazed runaway plane backing
into the fence, nothin'. Just sweet, non-sweaty zero-towbar parking
without needing the luxury of pull-through.

I've since moved, and the lower southeast has been turned into some
non-aviation (or at least, non-aircraft parking) area so I believe the
plane lives elsewhere in the airport now.

[Grumman-581[_4_]]

On Oct 16, 4:02 pm, "Morgans" > wrote:
> Why not get someone with a table saw to rip a piece of wood with a long slope on
> it, like a ramp, to make an easy transition onto the floor?

But then I wouldn't have had an excuse to buy the ATV (which I use in
the woods near the airport when the weather is too crappy for
flying)... <grin>

Actually, I thought about adding some concrete along the edge to make
it easier to get over the lip, but I don't remember which side of the
lip the door comes down on... We've had 6" of rain within the last two
days -- thunder storms, low ceilings, basically weather that I don't
want to be flying in... I'll try to remember to get a better look at
the lip the next time I'm at the airport...