Are autopilots allowed for IFR training?

[Mxsmanic]

Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?

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[Blanche]

Mxsmanic > wrote:
>Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
>instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?

There are varieties of "autopilot". 1,2,3-axis, coupled to GPS,
coupled to ILS, wing-leveler, etc.

Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on, it holds
the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled to anything,
it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as winds. I can
start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
on the strength of the winds.

As for IFR training -- you betcha! It's one way to reduce the load on
the student. Need to get charts for an unexpected diversion? Turn on
the AP, reach over and get the charts and start looking for the
right one.

Now, the DE can fail the AP during the exam. In exams, almost anything
is fair game.

[Roy Smith]

Blanche > wrote:
> Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on, it holds
> the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled to anything,
> it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as winds. I can
> start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
> are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
> on the strength of the winds.

I assume you understand the difference between heading and track?

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
> instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?
>

A question like this might be best asked on Rec.Aviation.Student.

[The Visitor]

Yes.

In point of fact many large ac are not hand flown, except rarely.

In point of fact, gear up, ap on, autoland armed on approach. Or it is
taken at minimums.

On very large ac, there really is no hand flying happening. And with
three autopilots, it is not even considered to be a possible failure.
Meaning on rides, you can, without penalty, rely on "Otto". Yes even
with an engine out.

Mxsmanic wrote:

> Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
> instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?
>

[Rip]

Judah wrote:
> Mxsmanic > wrote in
> :
>
>
>>Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
>>instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?
>>
>
>
> A question like this might be best asked on Rec.Aviation.Student.
This guy's not a student. He's a nag with Microsoft Flight Simulator
that won't bother to take any of the suggestions provided here.

[Kev]

Roy Smith wrote:
> Blanche > wrote:
> > Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on, it holds
> > the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled to anything,
> > it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as winds. I can
> > start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
> > are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
> > on the strength of the winds.
>
> I assume you understand the difference between heading and track?

It sounds like he does. He was giving a simple example of what would
happen if he set his autopilot heading to his course, with no
adjustment for wind. His track would then be affected, as he said.

Regards, Kev

[Blanche]

Roy Smith > wrote:
>Blanche > wrote:
>> Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on, it holds
>> the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled to anything,
>> it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as winds. I can
>> start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
>> are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
>> on the strength of the winds.
>
>I assume you understand the difference between heading and track?

Heading: direction in which the longitudinal axis of the aircraft
points with respect to true or magnetic north. Heading is equal to
course plus or minus any wind correction angle.

Course: intended direction of flight in the horizontal plane measured
in degrees from north.

Track: actual flight path of an aircraft over the ground. Also referred
to as ground track.

Ref: Aviation Dictionary, Jeppesen, 2003.

OK - my bad. I should have stated "start out on a course of 120". But
the use of "track" is correct, true?

[Mxsmanic]

Kev writes:

> It sounds like he does. He was giving a simple example of what would
> happen if he set his autopilot heading to his course, with no
> adjustment for wind. His track would then be affected, as he said.

Are there autopilots that will actually hold the aircraft to a track
instead of a heading? I imagine it would require close integration
with a GPS or other navaids that permit the actual path over the
ground to be determined (GPS may provide this directly; it might have
to be inferred from other navaids).

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[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> A question like this might be best asked on Rec.Aviation.Student.

Because licensed pilots don't have instrument ratings?

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[Mxsmanic]

The Visitor writes:

> Yes.
>
> In point of fact many large ac are not hand flown, except rarely.
>
> In point of fact, gear up, ap on, autoland armed on approach. Or it is
> taken at minimums.
>
> On very large ac, there really is no hand flying happening. And with
> three autopilots, it is not even considered to be a possible failure.
> Meaning on rides, you can, without penalty, rely on "Otto". Yes even
> with an engine out.

If I can do everything on autopilot, I might as well go out and pick
up an instrument rating right now. It's easier to fly in low
visibility with a good autopilot than it is to hand-fly the plane in
VMC. And if there's a complete flight management system on board, it
becomes more of a course in computer programming than a form of
flight, although I guess one can still get satisfaction from taxis to
and from the runway (I know some systems can take you from gate to
gate, but I don't know if anyone is using them).

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[Jim Macklin]

Back to the OP question...
If the airplane used for the IR practical test has an
autopilot, the applicant is REQUIRED to be able to properly
use the AP. Therefore, training is required. AP failures,
IAP coupled, and tansitions to and from the AP are tested.
a.. Testing in modern aircraft with electronic flight
instrument displays has been addressed.
b.. The use of autopilot and flight management during
testing has been addressed.
c.. The requirement for the use of a view-limiting device
has been clarified.
d.. The need for testing in Single-Pilot Resource
Management has been addressed and clarified.
e.. Reference to the metric system has been eliminated.
f.. The body of the PTS has been updated to include
electronic flight instrument displays, flight management
systems, GPS, and autopilot usage.
g.. The need for testing basic instrument flight maneuvers
throughout the practical test instead of being treated as
separate TASKs has been addressed in AREA OF OPERATION IV.
FAA-S-8081-4D



The applicant is expected to utilize an autopilot and/or
flight management system (FMS), if properly installed,
during the instrument practical test to assist in the
management of the aircraft. The examiner is expected to test
the applicant's knowledge of the systems that are installed
and operative during the oral and flight portions of the
practical test. The applicant will be required to
demonstrate the use of the autopilot and/or FMS during one
of the nonprecision approaches.

If the practical test is conducted in the aircraft, and the
aircraft has an operable and properly installed GPS, the
applicant must demonstrate GPS approach proficiency when
asked. If the applicant has contracted for training in an
approved course that includes GPS training in the system
that is installed in the airplane/simulator/FTD and the
airplane/simulator/FTD used for the checking/testing has the
same system properly installed and operable, the applicant
must demonstrate GPS approach proficiency. When a practical
test is conducted for a 14 CFR part 135 operator, the
operator's approved training program is the controlling
authority.

http://www.faa.gov/education_research/testing/airmen/test_standards/media/FAA-S-8081-4D.pdf



"Blanche" > wrote in message
...
| Roy Smith > wrote:
| >Blanche > wrote:
| >> Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on,
it holds
| >> the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled
to anything,
| >> it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as
winds. I can
| >> start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
| >> are from the north, then my actual track is more
southerly, depending
| >> on the strength of the winds.
| >
| >I assume you understand the difference between heading
and track?
|
| Heading: direction in which the longitudinal axis of the
aircraft
| points with respect to true or magnetic north. Heading is
equal to
| course plus or minus any wind correction angle.
|
| Course: intended direction of flight in the horizontal
plane measured
| in degrees from north.
|
| Track: actual flight path of an aircraft over the ground.
Also referred
| to as ground track.
|
| Ref: Aviation Dictionary, Jeppesen, 2003.
|
| OK - my bad. I should have stated "start out on a course
of 120". But
| the use of "track" is correct, true?

[Mxsmanic]

"Jim Macklin" > writes:

> e.. Reference to the metric system has been eliminated.

Interesting. What does this mean?

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[Morgans[_2_]]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
news:ZBF_g.13272$XX2.1656@dukeread04...
> Back to the OP question...
> If the airplane used for the IR practical test has an
> autopilot, the applicant is REQUIRED to be able to properly
> use the AP.

I will not take the opportunity to point out that this information, and ALL of
the other information the OP has asked about is available online, either at the
FAA web pages, or by googling this group.

This same subject was discussed here, not more than a couple months ago.

I wish you all would quit spoon feeding, and enabling this guy. You would have
told any other person to google it.
--
Jim in NC

[Roy Smith]

In article >,
Blanche > wrote:

> Roy Smith > wrote:
> >Blanche > wrote:
> >> Me, personally, have a 1/2-axis autopilot. Turn it on, it holds
> >> the heading. Well, not really. Since it's not coupled to anything,
> >> it doesn't know when there's any deviation, such as winds. I can
> >> start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
> >> are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
> >> on the strength of the winds.
> >
> >I assume you understand the difference between heading and track?
>
> Heading: direction in which the longitudinal axis of the aircraft
> points with respect to true or magnetic north. Heading is equal to
> course plus or minus any wind correction angle.
>
> Course: intended direction of flight in the horizontal plane measured
> in degrees from north.
>
> Track: actual flight path of an aircraft over the ground. Also referred
> to as ground track.
>
> Ref: Aviation Dictionary, Jeppesen, 2003.
>
> OK - my bad. I should have stated "start out on a course of 120". But
> the use of "track" is correct, true?

Yeah, I think you got it. I was a little worried from the way you phrased
things originally.

[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
> instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?
>
I used it for both my training and on my checkride. It shows
you know how to use all the tools effectively. If you got something
operational in the plane, it's fair game for the examiner to ask
about it. Mine was pretty cool, he was willing to let me fly the
partial panel approach with the autopilot even, but it was really
turbulent and it was hunting a bit so I decided to hand fly it
after the first part.

I would fly IFR without the autopilot, but you can't have my
moving map until you pry it from my cold dead fingers.

[Ron Natalie]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> Kev writes:
>
>> It sounds like he does. He was giving a simple example of what would
>> happen if he set his autopilot heading to his course, with no
>> adjustment for wind. His track would then be affected, as he said.
>
> Are there autopilots that will actually hold the aircraft to a track
> instead of a heading? I imagine it would require close integration
> with a GPS or other navaids that permit the actual path over the
> ground to be determined (GPS may provide this directly; it might have
> to be inferred from other navaids).
>

Any autopilot that has a NAV setting will he holding a track it just
follows a "virtual" needle from either a GPS or NAV receiver.

[Morgans[_2_]]

> Any autopilot that has a NAV setting will he holding a track it just
> follows a "virtual" needle from either a GPS or NAV receiver.


--
All of Mxsmanic's questions could be easily answered by googling this group,
googling the web for products, or by reading the FAA web pages. Please do not
enable him by answering his questions. He is a troll, and that is what he
wants, not to learn anything.
Jim in NC

[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> A question like this might be best asked on Rec.Aviation.Student.
>
> Because licensed pilots don't have instrument ratings?
>

No, because Rec.Aviation.Piloting is a forum for pilots to discuss flying
planes. Rec.Aviation.Student is a forum for flight students to discuss flight
training and flight testing standards. A question about whether an autopilot
is permitted during a flight test applies to the latter.



A bit of respect might go a long way...

[Andrew Gideon]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2006 09:43:49 +0200, Mxsmanic wrote:

> It's easier to fly in low visibility with a
> good autopilot than it is to hand-fly the plane in VMC.

And this is based upon your extensive gaming experience?

[Mxsmanic]

Judah writes:

> No, because Rec.Aviation.Piloting is a forum for pilots to discuss flying
> planes. Rec.Aviation.Student is a forum for flight students to discuss flight
> training and flight testing standards. A question about whether an autopilot
> is permitted during a flight test applies to the latter.

What's the definition of a pilot?

> A bit of respect might go a long way...

I'm unmoved by disrespect, but you're welcome to try, if you wish.

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[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:

All of Mxsmanic's questions could be easily answered by googling this
group, googling the web for products, or by reading the FAA web pages.
Please do not enable him by answering his questions. He is a troll, and
that is what he wants, not to learn anything.
Jim in NC

Take a hike, Jim. I'll talk to who I wish. Your netcopping
contributes nothing to to the forum or this discussion.

[BT]

if it is in the airplane, you can be expected to demonstrate it's use on a
check ride.
but you can also be expected to hand fly the approaches to check ride
tolerances.

BT

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
> instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?
>
> --
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[Mxsmanic]

Andrew Gideon writes:

> And this is based upon your extensive gaming experience?

It is my experience thus far with simulation. Presumably I'll get
better at hand-flying with practice.

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[Judah]

Mxsmanic > wrote in
:

> Judah writes:
>
>> No, because Rec.Aviation.Piloting is a forum for pilots to discuss
>> flying planes. Rec.Aviation.Student is a forum for flight students to
>> discuss flight training and flight testing standards. A question about
>> whether an autopilot is permitted during a flight test applies to the
>> latter.
>
> What's the definition of a pilot?

What is the definition of a student?

[Morgans[_2_]]

"Ron Natalie" > wrote in message
m...
> Morgans wrote:
>
> All of Mxsmanic's questions could be easily answered by googling this group,
> googling the web for products, or by reading the FAA web pages. Please do not
> enable him by answering his questions. He is a troll, and that is what he
> wants, not to learn anything.
> Jim in NC
>
> Take a hike, Jim. I'll talk to who I wish. Your netcopping
> contributes nothing to to the forum or this discussion.

Other than the fact that he is slowly destroying this group?

You need to get a fresh breath of reality.

Go ask your bride what she thinks about this troll. Oh, don't bother. I
already know.
--
Jim in NC

[Thomas Borchert]

Blanche,

> I can
> start out on a heading of 120, turn on the AP. If winds
> are from the north, then my actual track is more southerly, depending
> on the strength of the winds.
>

Your heading would remain 120, however.

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Dylan Smith]

On 2006-10-21, Mxsmanic > wrote:
> Can you use an autopilot when training for or being examined for an
> instrument rating, or do you have to fly the aircraft by hand?

In my multi-engine instrument checkride, I used the autopilot on several
occasions. The examiner will expect you to know how to use all the
equipment in the aircraft, and demonstrate correct cockpit resource
management. In real world IFR this very much means the autopilot is an
important tool - and if you have one, the examiner will expect you to
know how to use it and demonstrate its use.

--
Yes, the Reply-To email address is valid.
Oolite-Linux: an Elite tribute: http://oolite-linux.berlios.de

[Ron Natalie]

Morgans wrote:
\
>
> Other than the fact that he is slowly destroying this group?

Posh. Half the time what he starts ends up a fairly reasonable
discusssion (other than his own stupid observations on aviation
as seen through flightsim).

>
> Go ask your bride what she thinks about this troll. Oh, don't bother.
> I already know.

I don't let my wife tell me who I can talk to, so I certainly
am not going to worry about what you think.

[B A R R Y[_1_]]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
> \
>>
>> Other than the fact that he is slowly destroying this group?
>
> Posh. Half the time what he starts ends up a fairly reasonable
> discusssion (other than his own stupid observations on aviation
> as seen through flightsim).

There are probably more messages arguing about him than with him. <G>

[Margy Natalie]

Ron Natalie wrote:
> Morgans wrote:
> \
>
>>
>> Other than the fact that he is slowly destroying this group?
>
>
> Posh. Half the time what he starts ends up a fairly reasonable
> discusssion (other than his own stupid observations on aviation
> as seen through flightsim).
>
>>
>> Go ask your bride what she thinks about this troll. Oh, don't
>> bother. I already know.
>
>
> I don't let my wife tell me who I can talk to, so I certainly
> am not going to worry about what you think.
I think you should remember our previous conversation, DEAR! hmm, maybe
this post was before this conversation, I've been really busy.

Margy

I'm with Jim on this one