RVSM from Cabin Class

[Kyle Boatright]

We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday from California after a
weeklong trip to San Francisco, Napa, and Yosemite. On the way home, I had
a window seat and was surprised on a couple of occasions at how close 1,000'
of vertical separation appears when you're looking out the window from seat
13A. When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.

Other than being startled a couple of times by close views of other
airliners, the flight was really nice. We saw the painted desert, Meteor
Crater, and got a distant view of the Grand Canyon among other things.

One more comment. We had a connecting flight through LAX and had to catch a
bus from one terminal to another. At LAX the inter-terminal busses run
around on the ramp with all of the other service vehicles. There is a LOT of
traffic on that ramp, which really surprised me!

[Mxsmanic]

Kyle Boatright writes:

> We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday from California after a
> weeklong trip to San Francisco, Napa, and Yosemite. On the way home, I had
> a window seat and was surprised on a couple of occasions at how close 1,000'
> of vertical separation appears when you're looking out the window from seat
> 13A. When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
> heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.

It IS close. Compare 1000 feet with the actual dimensions of the
airliner, which are an appreciable fraction of the separation distance
for larger aircraft.

--
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[john smith]

In article >,
Mxsmanic > wrote:

> Kyle Boatright writes:
>
> > We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday from California after a
> > weeklong trip to San Francisco, Napa, and Yosemite. On the way home, I had
> > a window seat and was surprised on a couple of occasions at how close
> > 1,000'
> > of vertical separation appears when you're looking out the window from seat
> > 13A. When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
> > heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.
>
> It IS close. Compare 1000 feet with the actual dimensions of the
> airliner, which are an appreciable fraction of the separation distance
> for larger aircraft.

And when you are flying 500 feet above CBAS ceiling and Approach is
vectoring inbound heavies 500 feet over your head, they look REAL BIG!!!

[BT]

How tall is the airliner.. with the gear retracted.. lower engine cowls to
top of rudder..
150ft ft? 200ft?
Odds of getting "perfectly" over/under each other is marginal, so add the
slant range distance.
Plus allowable altimeter errors.

1000ft is pleanty of room.

BT

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> Kyle Boatright writes:
>
>> We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday from California after a
>> weeklong trip to San Francisco, Napa, and Yosemite. On the way home, I
>> had
>> a window seat and was surprised on a couple of occasions at how close
>> 1,000'
>> of vertical separation appears when you're looking out the window from
>> seat
>> 13A. When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
>> heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.
>
> It IS close. Compare 1000 feet with the actual dimensions of the
> airliner, which are an appreciable fraction of the separation distance
> for larger aircraft.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

BT writes:

> How tall is the airliner.. with the gear retracted.. lower engine cowls to
> top of rudder..
> 150ft ft? 200ft?

Even with gear extended, a 747-400 is 63 feet high--about 1/16 of the
separation distance. That's very roughly the relationship of one inch
to one foot, if you want to visualize it.

> 1000ft is pleanty of room.

I don't know that it's plenty, but with the right equipment, it's
sufficient.

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[Christopher Brian Colohan]

"Kyle Boatright" > writes:
> We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday from California after a
> weeklong trip to San Francisco, Napa, and Yosemite. On the way home, I had
> a window seat and was surprised on a couple of occasions at how close 1,000'
> of vertical separation appears when you're looking out the window from seat
> 13A. When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
> heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.

I got the chance to sit up front in a plane in the flight levels a few
weeks ago, and it looks really close from the front window too. :-)
Especially dramatic is when you have two planes, one 1000' above you,
and another 1000' below you, passing at almost exactly the same time.
It feels like you are threading a needle between the other two
planes...

Chris

[BT]

so.. only 63ft tall.. and in your workds 1/16th the distance, so get the
point... 1000ft is pleanty,

And you are not a pilot so how do you know what is sufficient and what is
not.

B

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> BT writes:
>
>> How tall is the airliner.. with the gear retracted.. lower engine cowls
>> to
>> top of rudder..
>> 150ft ft? 200ft?
>
> Even with gear extended, a 747-400 is 63 feet high--about 1/16 of the
> separation distance. That's very roughly the relationship of one inch
> to one foot, if you want to visualize it.
>
>> 1000ft is pleanty of room.
>
> I don't know that it's plenty, but with the right equipment, it's
> sufficient.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[BT]

> I got the chance to sit up front in a plane in the flight levels a few
> weeks ago, and it looks really close from the front window too. :-)
> Especially dramatic is when you have two planes, one 1000' above you,
> and another 1000' below you, passing at almost exactly the same time.
> It feels like you are threading a needle between the other two
> planes...
>
> Chris

When you are at flight levels, due to the curvature of the earth, on first
apperance, the "higher" aircraft may appear to be lower, and as the distance
closes, the appearance is that he climbs from below to above, where he was
all the time.

I will agree that it is "dramatic".

BT

[Mxsmanic]

BT writes:

> so.. only 63ft tall.. and in your workds 1/16th the distance, so get the
> point... 1000ft is pleanty,
>
> And you are not a pilot so how do you know what is sufficient and what is
> not.

There's nothing magic about being a pilot, and reasoning ability is
not the sole domain of the licensed pilot.

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[BT]

ahh... but there is somethign magical about being a pilot... and because you
are not you do not know that.
and as far as reasoning ability? one cannot reason, what one has not
experienced..

I've known a lot of smart people that were just not cut out to be in a
cockpit.

BT

"Mxsmanic" > wrote in message
...
> BT writes:
>
>> so.. only 63ft tall.. and in your workds 1/16th the distance, so get the
>> point... 1000ft is pleanty,
>>
>> And you are not a pilot so how do you know what is sufficient and what is
>> not.
>
> There's nothing magic about being a pilot, and reasoning ability is
> not the sole domain of the licensed pilot.
>
> --
> Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[John Gaquin]

"Kyle Boatright" > wrote in message

> We flew commercial back to Atlanta yesterday....
> .... When another airliner passes 1,000' right under you on a reciprocal
> heading with a closing speed of over 1,000 mph, it looks CLOSE.

At normal cruising altitudes (ie, above 290) opposite direction vertical
separation will be 2000 feet.

[Jose[_1_]]

> When you are at flight levels, due to the curvature of the earth, on first
> apperance, the "higher" aircraft may appear to be lower,

The curvature of the earth is greater in the bugsmasher altitudes.

How far away are you seeing these airplanes?

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Matt Barrow]

"BT" > wrote in message
news:laT_g.6027$gM1.3433@fed1read12...
> ahh... but there is somethign magical about being a pilot... and because
> you are not you do not know that.
> and as far as reasoning ability? one cannot reason, what one has not
> experienced..

Sure you can; it's called "abstraction".

[Stache]

Matt Barrow wrote:
> "BT" > wrote in message
> news:laT_g.6027$gM1.3433@fed1read12...
> > ahh... but there is somethign magical about being a pilot... and because
> > you are not you do not know that.
> > and as far as reasoning ability? one cannot reason, what one has not
> > experienced..
>
> Sure you can; it's called "abstraction".

Because of my job I sit up in the cockpit all to often and watch the
TCAS alot. Flying into LA is tough sitting behind the pilot with no
control, but thank God go working equipment. Aircraft do seem close,
but they are not well not that close.

Stache

[BT]

during normal air refueling join ups.. the contrail may give away the
location
sometimes about 15 miles distant the aircraft can be picked up
especially with a sun glint
10 miles, very easily
BT

"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> When you are at flight levels, due to the curvature of the earth, on
>> first apperance, the "higher" aircraft may appear to be lower,
>
> The curvature of the earth is greater in the bugsmasher altitudes.
>
> How far away are you seeing these airplanes?
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Capt.Doug]

>"John Gaquin" wrote in message
> At normal cruising altitudes (ie, above 290) opposite direction vertical
> separation will be 2000 feet.

Are you current? Most of the modern world now uses 1000' seperation up to
FL410.

D.

[John Gaquin]

"Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
>
> Are you current? Most of the modern world now uses 1000' seperation up to
> FL410.

I stand (or sit) corrected. Haven't flown a thing in eleven years, but your
comment prompted a bit of research, and I see the reg. Just a couple of
years ago, wasn't it?

[Bob Noel]

In article >,
"John Gaquin" > wrote:

> "Capt.Doug" > wrote in message
> >
> > Are you current? Most of the modern world now uses 1000' seperation up to
> > FL410.
>
> I stand (or sit) corrected. Haven't flown a thing in eleven years, but your
> comment prompted a bit of research, and I see the reg. Just a couple of
> years ago, wasn't it?

In the US NAS, yes. North Atlantic tracks started using RVSM in the later
1990's.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Capt.Doug]

>"John Gaquin" wrote in message > Just a couple of
> years ago, wasn't it?

Yes, and it is a welcome addition. It gives us a lot more flexibilty to find
smooth air, get shortcuts from ATC, and conserve fuel.

D.

[Mxsmanic]

BT writes:

> ahh... but there is somethign magical about being a pilot... and because you
> are not you do not know that.

It always makes me smile to hear claims like that.

> and as far as reasoning ability? one cannot reason, what one has not
> experienced..

How do you "experience" 1000/63?

> I've known a lot of smart people that were just not cut out to be in a
> cockpit.

I've known a number of people who were licensed to be in a cockpit but
were not smart.

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[Mxsmanic]

Jose writes:

> > When you are at flight levels, due to the curvature of the earth, on first
> > apperance, the "higher" aircraft may appear to be lower,
>
> The curvature of the earth is greater in the bugsmasher altitudes.
>
> How far away are you seeing these airplanes?

FWIW, at FL360 aircraft will be already be in line of sight as much as
200 nm away (ground distance). Of course, human vision and
atmospheric conditions put more restrictive limits on visibility.

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[Aluckyguess]

You can see the curve 20 miles away.
"Jose" > wrote in message
om...
>> When you are at flight levels, due to the curvature of the earth, on
>> first apperance, the "higher" aircraft may appear to be lower,
>
> The curvature of the earth is greater in the bugsmasher altitudes.
>
> How far away are you seeing these airplanes?
>
> Jose
> --
> "Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where it
> keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
> for Email, make the obvious change in the address.