For MXSMANIC: Flight Simulator Gear?

[Jay Honeck]

As long as we now have a certified MS Flight Simulator expert in-group,
with MXSMANIC, I may as well ask some sim advice...

Every Tuesday night we have "Movie Night" at the inn, where we show
free aviation movies in our theater. The theater has a 104" screen,
with a high-def projector hooked up to DVD/VHS -- and a PC.

Before (and, sometimes, after) the movie, we hold flight simulator
sessions, using both MS Flight Sim and X-Plane. This is a lot of fun
(that big screen is WAY cool for sim flying!), but the joystick
generates a significant number of "complaints" about how unrealistic
the controls are. And I agree.

Bottom line: Flying a Skylane with a joystick is just....wrong.

Sooooo...I've purchased the CH brand of yoke/throttles and rudder
pedals, all of which should be delivered early this week. These will
go a long ways toward making the flight experience a LOT more
realistic, but getting the controls into the correct ergonomic position
for users will be difficult in the theater, soooo:

See: http://www.avshop.com/prodinfo.asp?number=6531

I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or
having my A&P weld up something similar. Before I go to this extreme,
however, (well, what *I* think is extreme) how do YOU "fly" your sim
set up? What, in your opinion, is the best cockpit set up for
"piloting" a sim?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Paul Tomblin]

In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
>PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or

I've used a couple of those sims, including some pretty **** hot gear in
the X-Plane booth, and some Elite set-ups, and I've never liked the way
the trim doesn't actually trim the elevator forces out. I end up flying
with the trim wheel all the time.


--
Paul Tomblin > http://blog.xcski.com/
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary
Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" - Pennsylvania Assembly, 11Nov1755

[Gary Drescher]

"Paul Tomblin" > wrote in message
...
> In a previous article, "Jay Honeck" > said:
>>I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
>>PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or
>
> I've used a couple of those sims, including some pretty **** hot gear in
> the X-Plane booth, and some Elite set-ups, and I've never liked the way
> the trim doesn't actually trim the elevator forces out. I end up flying
> with the trim wheel all the time.

That's why I strongly prefer a force-feedback joystick over a non-FF yoke
for simulated flying. With the FF joystick, you *can* trim off the elevator
pressure.

But Jay could provide both and let his guests choose.

--Gary

[Mxsmanic]

Jay Honeck writes:

> I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
> PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or
> having my A&P weld up something similar. Before I go to this extreme,
> however, (well, what *I* think is extreme) how do YOU "fly" your sim
> set up? What, in your opinion, is the best cockpit set up for
> "piloting" a sim?

Well, I have to use the same computer for a lot of other things,
including work and school, so I'm limited in how much I can customize
the environment for flight. I just have a big LCD monitor and a
Saitek X52 joystick and throttle. After flying the keyboard alone for
years, this seems like a vast improvement to me, but it's nothing
compared to the kinds of kustom kockpits that people can set up if
they want to dedicate a machine to simulation. I might do that
someday, but not any time soon because I don't have the space (or
money or time).

My own attraction to simming is more intellectual than visceral, so I
do okay even if I don't have three monitors and a fancy yoke and so
on. I also believe that if the cockpit gets more elaborate, it has to
get more specific to a given aircraft, too. An elaborate, generic
cockpit effectively corresponds to nothing in real life, although it
might have a nice feel to it.

It sounds like your movie nights are fun, especially the sim sessions.
Who chooses to fly the sim?

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[FLAV8R[_1_]]

Jay,

You have to checkout this video it is a flight sim video showing what
you can do if you upgrade your sim.
His sim has all the latest gadgets and upgrades that will give you the most
realistic look and feel.
He also has some suggestions on the YouTube.com site that will
help make your sim out of this world.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z89Hkldgh0M&mode=user&search=

Here is partial list of add-ons he uses:
-Ground Environment Pro
-Ultimate Terrain Europe
-Active Sky 6
-Mega Airport Frankfurt
-PMDG 737-800

David - KGYH


"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> As long as we now have a certified MS Flight Simulator expert in-group,
> with MXSMANIC, I may as well ask some sim advice...
>
> Every Tuesday night we have "Movie Night" at the inn, where we show
> free aviation movies in our theater. The theater has a 104" screen,
> with a high-def projector hooked up to DVD/VHS -- and a PC.
>
> Before (and, sometimes, after) the movie, we hold flight simulator
> sessions, using both MS Flight Sim and X-Plane. This is a lot of fun
> (that big screen is WAY cool for sim flying!), but the joystick
> generates a significant number of "complaints" about how unrealistic
> the controls are. And I agree.
>
> Bottom line: Flying a Skylane with a joystick is just....wrong.
>
> Sooooo...I've purchased the CH brand of yoke/throttles and rudder
> pedals, all of which should be delivered early this week. These will
> go a long ways toward making the flight experience a LOT more
> realistic, but getting the controls into the correct ergonomic position
> for users will be difficult in the theater, soooo:
>
> See: http://www.avshop.com/prodinfo.asp?number=6531
>
> I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
> PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or
> having my A&P weld up something similar. Before I go to this extreme,
> however, (well, what *I* think is extreme) how do YOU "fly" your sim
> set up? What, in your opinion, is the best cockpit set up for
> "piloting" a sim?
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Sooooo...I've purchased the CH brand of yoke/throttles and rudder
> pedals, all of which should be delivered early this week.

You might set these up in the "standard" way (clamp the yoke to the edge
of a table, put the pedals on the floor) and see what the response is.
I suspect that it will be enough of an improvement over the joystick
that you won't _have_ to spring for the fancy jig for a while. On the
other hand, you may be optimizing for maximum shiny toys instead of for
minimum cost. :)

> I tested this unique rig at Oshkosh this year, and found it to be
> PERFECT for the task, and I'm thinking about either purchasing one or
> having my A&P weld up something similar.

I really think living in Oklahoma is starting to rub off on me: my first
thought was that a junk four-door car body and a Sawzall might do the
job. (An old pickup cab is almost perfect, except that they usually
have bench seats which isn't quite what you want.) Remove the doors,
hood, and front fenders, and cut the front of the car off just forward
of the firewall. Cut the A-pillars at the base of the windshield and
the B-pillars just below the roof so you can fold the roof back, then
cut the B-pillars again just above the floor and get rid of them. Cut
the floor just aft of the front seat attachment points. You then have
an assembly consisting of the dash and (adjustable) front seats. Get
rid of the steering column if it wasn't gone already; there is usually
a good hardpoint a few inches forward of the steering wheel where the
column mounted to the dash - this is where you bolt down the yoke. Get
rid of the car pedals and bolt the sim pedals to the floor where they
were. If you don't like the "I'm sitting in a car" sight picture, get
a piece of 1/4" plywood and cut it into roughly a "D" shape (like the
panel of a 172/182), paint it black, and mount it just forward of the
yoke. Grind down sharp edges, paint, and add carpeting/trim to taste.

Getting a junk airplane fuselage would of course look even better, but
those are usually harder to come by, and probably more expensive, than
junk cars. You might talk to the local fire department; they might be
able to do some of the cutting for you under the disguise of rescue
training. If the city department isn't interested, try the local
volunteer departments - many of them don't get to do training like that
as often and they may be more willing to help.

You do realize this is just the beginning, right? If you have a custom
chair/mount for the yoke and pedals, the next question we'll see from
you will be along the lines of "How do you mount some real instruments
in the 'panel' and drive them from the computer?" After that it will
probably be something like "So I was down at Tractor Supply today and I
saw some hydraulic cylinders and I started thinking..." On the other
hand, if you do end up building a full sim, you can charge way more for
it than you charge for a room. As a bonus, there's no social stigma
associated with renting sim time by the hour.

Matt Roberds

[Greg B]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> however, (well, what *I* think is extreme) how do YOU "fly" your sim
> set up? What, in your opinion, is the best cockpit set up for
> "piloting" a sim?

I used to fly MS sim years ago before I started pilot lessons. The last time
I flew a sim was during ground school in OKC, (the whole class) got a chance
to fly the FAA's 727(?) full-motion sim, now THAT was a sim! -- haven't
flown a sim since...

It'll depend on how much you want to invest... ;-)

-Greg B.

[Jay Honeck]

> That's why I strongly prefer a force-feedback joystick over a non-FF yoke
> for simulated flying. With the FF joystick, you *can* trim off the elevator
> pressure.
>
> But Jay could provide both and let his guests choose.

That's what we're using now. Joy sticks are great for flying combat
flight sims, but not very "real feeling" flying a spam can.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Jay Honeck]

> It sounds like your movie nights are fun, especially the sim sessions.
> Who chooses to fly the sim?

Usually everyone takes a turn at it, especially if the crowd is small.
We attract anywhere from 3 to 30 people on any given movie night, so we
never really know what to expect.

The older guys always choose to fly the Vickers, or the Spirit of St
Louis. The young guys always choose the 182, or the Caravan on floats.
It's really fun, and I'm thinking of adding a combat sim just for
variety.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gary Drescher]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
ps.com...
>> That's why I strongly prefer a force-feedback joystick over a non-FF yoke
>> for simulated flying. With the FF joystick, you *can* trim off the
>> elevator
>> pressure.
>>
>> But Jay could provide both and let his guests choose.
>
> That's what we're using now. Joy sticks are great for flying combat
> flight sims, but not very "real feeling" flying a spam can.

It's a matter of taste. For me, the important thing is for the sim to convey
information similar to the real thing (in this case, force feedback), even
if it's presented in a slightly different form factor (joystick instead of
yoke). (Consumer-priced force-feedback yokes are not available as far as I
know; and for me at least, the joystick would still be preferable because a
yoke pretty much takes over the computer area, so it's inconvenient unless
the computer is dedicated to simming.)

--Gary

[Jay Honeck]

> I really think living in Oklahoma is starting to rub off on me: my first
> thought was that a junk four-door car body and a Sawzall might do the
> job. (An old pickup cab is almost perfect, except that they usually
> have bench seats which isn't quite what you want.)

<Snip of great ideas>

At first I was all excited about your ideas, Matt.

Unfortunately, reality intervened. Our theater must pull double-duty
as a meeting room. I'm not sure how I would explain away having the
cab of an old pickup truck in there, while some guy in a tie is giving
his Powerpoint presentation around it...

;-)
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>> It sounds like your movie nights are fun, especially the sim sessions.
>> Who chooses to fly the sim?
>
> Usually everyone takes a turn at it, especially if the crowd is small.
> We attract anywhere from 3 to 30 people on any given movie night, so we
> never really know what to expect.
>
> The older guys always choose to fly the Vickers, or the Spirit of St
> Louis. The young guys always choose the 182, or the Caravan on floats.
> It's really fun, and I'm thinking of adding a combat sim just for
> variety.
> --
> Jay Honeck
> Iowa City, IA
> Pathfinder N56993
> www.AlexisParkInn.com
> "Your Aviation Destination"
>

You need to turn it into a competition. Maybe spot landings a OSH one week
and ILS with zero/zero at LAX. the next.

[Stubby]

Jay Honeck wrote:
....
> Louis. The young guys always choose the 182, or the Caravan on floats.
....
Float plane in a sim? Does it know about things such as getting "on
the step", high speed taxi turns, sailing into a mooring or dock using
the rudder, going up on one float to cut down drag, ... ?

[Peter Dohm]

"Greg B" > wrote in message
...
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
> > however, (well, what *I* think is extreme) how do YOU "fly" your sim
> > set up? What, in your opinion, is the best cockpit set up for
> > "piloting" a sim?
>
> I used to fly MS sim years ago before I started pilot lessons. The last
time
> I flew a sim was during ground school in OKC, (the whole class) got a
chance
> to fly the FAA's 727(?) full-motion sim, now THAT was a sim! -- haven't
> flown a sim since...
>
> It'll depend on how much you want to invest... ;-)
>
> -Greg B.
>
>
I started to price doing something like that back around 1980. At that
time, the Cessna 402s commonly flying between Florida and the Bahamas were
experiencing a wave of ditchings--or so it seemed. All of the Cessna twins
that I know of have a single engine ceiling well above sea level, even in
summer, which which makes/made them nearly unique in the light twin market.
Therefore I, and a couple of friends, believed that simulator training might
be a viable market--since it could provide more complete and intense
training in emergency procedures and could bring the pilot proficiency level
up to that expected by the larger carriers. We believed that all of that
could be accomplished for about half the price of a real airplane.

We were just plain wrong!

The projected numbers quickly added up--to more than a million. Remember
that those were 1980 dollars! At that point, for a lot of reasons including
very optomistic assumptions about the engineering we could contribute, we
were probably still low by much more than half.

If you double the preliminary estimate that we reached, which is still
optomistic, and then add 25 years of inflation at the "true" rate of about
5.5%, a current cost estimate probably starts around 8 million to build just
one. (Yes, I know, production volume might improve that.)

Interestingly, the only thing that would have cost less that expected would
have been to have Cessna instrument an airplane and fly off the data points.

Peter

[Kev]

Jay Honeck wrote:
> > I really think living in Oklahoma is starting to rub off on me: my first
> > thought was that a junk four-door car body and a Sawzall might do the
> > job. (An old pickup cab is almost perfect, except that they usually
> > have bench seats which isn't quite what you want.)
>
> At first I was all excited about your ideas, Matt.
>
> Unfortunately, reality intervened. Our theater must pull double-duty
> as a meeting room. I'm not sure how I would explain away having the
> cab of an old pickup truck in there, while some guy in a tie is giving
> his Powerpoint presentation around it...

I can't find it right now, but there was a website dedicated to just
this kind of setup. Some guys had taken an trashed Ford Galaxy 500 or
something similar, and mounted it on hydraulics in their garage. The
dash was torn out and replaced with a dual flight yoke setup and
instruments. An overhead projector showed the outside view on the
garage wall. Pretty hilarious when you first saw it, then pretty
interesting.

Kev

[Jay Honeck]

> > The young guys always choose the 182, or the Caravan on floats.
> ...
> Float plane in a sim? Does it know about things such as getting "on
> the step", high speed taxi turns, sailing into a mooring or dock using
> the rudder, going up on one float to cut down drag, ... ?

It does get up on the step, and the rudders do work in the water. The
sounds and visuals are quite convincing, too.

Of course, I've never actually flown a float plane, so you may find it
hopelessly unrealistic.
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

Jay Honeck > wrote:
> Unfortunately, reality intervened. Our theater must pull double-duty
> as a meeting room.

It probably wouldn't be too hard to put casters or maybe some nylon skids
on the bottom of the car body, so you could at least shove it into a
corner when you're not using it. By careful selection of paint and trim,
it can be made to look as little like a car body as you want.

> I'm not sure how I would explain away having the cab of an old pickup
> truck in there,

"Welcome to Iowa"?

> while some guy in a tie is giving his Powerpoint presentation around
> it...

Powerpoint kills people anyway, so IMHO it's not a big loss if somebody
can't use it. On the other hand it likely _does_ help rent hotel rooms,
so you probably have a different opinion.

I think what all this is pointing to is that you need a simulator room.
You may want to go ahead and build it with a high ceiling (20 feet or
more) to prepare for the eventual full-motion sim.

Matt Roberds

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Mon, 23 Oct 2006 16:21:17 GMT, wrote:

> Jay Honeck > wrote:
> > Unfortunately, reality intervened. Our theater must pull double-duty
> > as a meeting room.
>
> It probably wouldn't be too hard to put casters or maybe some nylon skids
> on the bottom of the car body, so you could at least shove it into a
> corner when you're not using it. By careful selection of paint and trim,
> it can be made to look as little like a car body as you want.

There's a guy at a nearby airport (Vashon Muni) that has a DC-3 cockpit on
rollers. The cabin was cut out just under the cockpit floor to the limits of
the front windshield and side windows. Nothing (else) has been done with it
yet, but I was surprised at how compact the package was.

When I went to Space Camp a few years back, we got to fly PC-based simulators
from dummy fighter cockpits with the monitor image displayed in front using a
digital projector. Was surprisingly effective...you had enough image in your
peripheral vision. Similar trick would be cool with the DC-3 cockpit, too...

Ron Wanttaja

[Jay Honeck]

> There's a guy at a nearby airport (Vashon Muni) that has a DC-3 cockpit on
> rollers. The cabin was cut out just under the cockpit floor to the limits of
> the front windshield and side windows. Nothing (else) has been done with it
> yet, but I was surprised at how compact the package was.
>
> When I went to Space Camp a few years back, we got to fly PC-based simulators
> from dummy fighter cockpits with the monitor image displayed in front using a
> digital projector. Was surprisingly effective...you had enough image in your
> peripheral vision. Similar trick would be cool with the DC-3 cockpit, too...

Yeah, that 104-inch screen would work perfectly for this.
Unfortunately, my meeting room would be effectively eliminated -- which
wouldn't break my heart, but it DOES get used fairly regularly.

I wonder where you get a DC-3 cockpit nowadays?
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Gig 601XL Builder" <wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote in message
...
>
> "Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
>>> It sounds like your movie nights are fun, especially the sim sessions.
>>> Who chooses to fly the sim?
>>
>> Usually everyone takes a turn at it, especially if the crowd is small.
>> We attract anywhere from 3 to 30 people on any given movie night, so we
>> never really know what to expect.
>>
>> The older guys always choose to fly the Vickers, or the Spirit of St
>> Louis. The young guys always choose the 182, or the Caravan on floats.
>> It's really fun, and I'm thinking of adding a combat sim just for
>> variety.
>> --
>> Jay Honeck
>> Iowa City, IA
>> Pathfinder N56993
>> www.AlexisParkInn.com
>> "Your Aviation Destination"
>>
>
> You need to turn it into a competition. Maybe spot landings a OSH one week
> and ILS with zero/zero at LAX. the next.

If you want a competition: http://www.condorsoaring.com/index.htm
http://www.condorsoaring.com/serverlist.php

They have races going on all the time. Of course, this would mean leaving
the noise maker that spins the crutch on the front behind...

How do you think you could do against glider pilots?

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Jay Honeck" > wrote in message
oups.com...
<...>
> I wonder where you get a DC-3 cockpit nowadays?


I think that most of them are found somewhere near the front of DC-3's. :-)

--
--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.