flight school installing an autofuel tank

[M[_1_]]

The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
the self serve pump at AWO).

In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
$1.30/gallon.

[J. Severyn]

You are fortunate that alcohol-free autogas is available. In our area of
the US (SF Bay area), all autofuel now has alky, making my autogas STC
useless. Believe me I would love to use unleaded autogas. I did so for
over 1500 hours and the engine was never cleaner internally. The oil stayed
cleaner looking for many hours. My plugs were nearly spotless when pulled
for inspection and regapping. I'd even pay more for autogas, if I could get
it without alcohol.

John Severyn
@LVK

"M" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> the self serve pump at AWO).
>
> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> $1.30/gallon.
>

[M[_1_]]

That's just terrible. I think AOPA and EAA's lobby wasn't as
experienced or ramped up when the stupid ethanol rule went in at
California at what, 7 years ago?

Washington state has passed an ethanol law last year. Thanks for the
AOPA lobby the final version of the law had a few minor but very
important changes: it exempted aircraft fuel from ethanol blending
(which is common in many states), and more importantly, it changed a
per-gallon blending requirement to a total volume requirement for each
oil supplier. Basically, instead of requiring each gallon of gasoline
contain 2% ethanol, it requires 2% of total gasoline sale by each oil
company throughout the state to be pure ethanol on a quarterly basis.
Given ethanol has to be blended at a terminal facility (thank goodness
for its pipeline corroding property!!!), this gives the oil company a
lot of freedom to sell ethanol free gasoline, as long as they blend
some of their gasoline sale with higher than 2% ethanol to meet the
quota.

The effect of that law is yet to be seen because it won't take effect
until 2007. However I think the way the law is written, bulk fuel
purchaser (such as FBO and flight school) will continue to be able to
buy ethanol free gasoline easily. On the street pump the oil company
might sell their premium gas ethanol free as a selling point, because
the law doesn't require ethanol in every gallon of gas.


J. Severyn wrote:
> You are fortunate that alcohol-free autogas is available. In our area of
> the US (SF Bay area), all autofuel now has alky, making my autogas STC
> useless. Believe me I would love to use unleaded autogas. I did so for
> over 1500 hours and the engine was never cleaner internally. The oil stayed
> cleaner looking for many hours. My plugs were nearly spotless when pulled
> for inspection and regapping. I'd even pay more for autogas, if I could get
> it without alcohol.
>
> John Severyn
> @LVK
>
> "M" > wrote in message
> oups.com...
> > The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> > he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> > supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> > flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> > save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> > have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> > the self serve pump at AWO).
> >
> > In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> > is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> > $1.30/gallon.
> >

[Jay Honeck]

> The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> the self serve pump at AWO).

Outstanding! Our stupid airport commission and FBO would much rather
complain about the stuff (although, in fairness, they're pretty muted
about it) instead of jumping on board the band wagon, and installing
tanks/pumps. Lord knows they wouldn't want to actually make any money
selling fuel...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[Kingfish]

M wrote:
>
> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> $1.30/gallon.

The gap is closer to $2 here in CT.

[ktbr]

Jay Honeck wrote:
>
> Outstanding! Our stupid airport commission and FBO would much rather
> complain about the stuff (although, in fairness, they're pretty muted
> about it) instead of jumping on board the band wagon, and installing
> tanks/pumps. Lord knows they wouldn't want to actually make any money
> selling fuel...

The thing about it is Jay, that spending the money on a new
tank farm/self service installation is a significant business
decision. As you know, in this day and age, its not as simple
as just slapping in a tank... you need containment, fancy
(and expensive) equipment and more inspections involved. You
should know about about all the government regulations (dare
we mention liabilities??) and that costs money.

They have to know that the system can pay for itself in a
reasonable amount of time and that the sales will justify
initial investment and continued maintenance headaches.
You are dealing with a customer base that is already pinching
pennies as it is....

[Mike Noel]

Comparing the highest octane auto fuel with 100LL here in southern AZ, the
difference is about 75 cents if you make judicious fuel stops.

--
Best Regards,
Mike

http://photoshow.comcast.net/mikenoel

"Kingfish" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> M wrote:
>>
>> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
>> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
>> $1.30/gallon.
>
> The gap is closer to $2 here in CT.
>

[Robert M. Gary]

M wrote:
> The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> the self serve pump at AWO).
>
> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> $1.30/gallon.

Our local flight school owner just bought an old fuel truck out of
trade-a-plane and buys 100LL bulk from the oil company. Their truck
comes out to the airport and fills his truck. (He gets around the state
transport laws because his truck never touches public roads). His price
on the direct bought 100LL is pretty awesome. Now I see him out there
in the mornings putting gas in all his planes. Of course the fuel
dealer on the field had been charging $5.25 for self serve at the time
too, so there was quiet an incentive.

-Robert

[Grumman-581[_1_]]

M wrote:
> The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> the self serve pump at AWO).
>
> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> $1.30/gallon.

Of course, that is going to depend upon how much the owner of the flight
school is going to sell autogas for... I seem to remember reading in our
city's docs for our airport that it was defined that they would sell
fuel for $1 per gallon over their actual cost...

[RST Engineering]

"M" > wrote in message
oups.com...

> That's just terrible. I think AOPA and EAA's lobby wasn't as
> experienced or ramped up when the stupid ethanol rule went in at
> California at what, 7 years ago?

California's ethanol rule expired over a year ago. California gas stations
can have any blend of ethanol they want, including zero if that is their
choice. HOWEVER, ethanol bumps the antiknock rating up by two or three
points, so they'd have to relabel their pumps down because the cracking
plants aren't going to up the octane unless they have to ... cheaper to
crack lower octane, y'know.

The whole thing sucks.

Jim

[M[_1_]]

Fortunately, the autogas pump at AWO is usually only about 20c/gallon
higher than the price on the street. I hope that'll make the flight
school price their autofuel accordingly.

Grumman-581 wrote:

>
> Of course, that is going to depend upon how much the owner of the flight
> school is going to sell autogas for... I seem to remember reading in our
> city's docs for our airport that it was defined that they would sell
> fuel for $1 per gallon over their actual cost...

[Newps]

Jay Honeck wrote:

> Outstanding! Our stupid airport commission and FBO would much rather
> complain about the stuff (although, in fairness, they're pretty muted
> about it) instead of jumping on board the band wagon, and installing
> tanks/pumps. Lord knows they wouldn't want to actually make any money
> selling fuel...

So why don't you buy and install a tank and pump and sell the fuel
yourself. Iowa still allows competition don't they? I have a friend
who installed a 12,000 gallon tank at an airport near here and directly
competes against the full service FBO on the field. Because your field
takes FAA funds you are guaranteed to get it approved although the
process can be discouraging.

[Dave S]

The ONLY "downside" to this... which is subjective.. is that if the wet
rate is lower because of this, also expect the "reimbursement" rate to
reflect HIS cost per gallon of autofuel, and not YOUR cost per gallon of
fuel bought away from the field on cross country.

Its a matter of being informed ahead of time that you may spend $3-4/gal
buying fuel remotely and only get $2-2.50 reimbursed based on this.

Dave

M wrote:
> The owner of a flight school at my airport (PAE) told me today that
> he'll soon install a 1500 gallon fuel tank for 91 octane autofuel, to
> supply fuel for his STC'ed cherokees and the Stingsport LSA on his
> flightline (he's a dealer for Stingsport LSA). What a concept! He can
> save a whole bunch on fuel, offering a better wet rental rate, and I'll
> have another on-airport autofuel supplier in this area (the other is at
> the self serve pump at AWO).
>
> In case people didn't notice, the price gap between avgas and autogas
> is no longer $1/gallon. It has grown to something more like
> $1.30/gallon.
>

[[email protected]]

: So why don't you buy and install a tank and pump and sell the fuel
: yourself. Iowa still allows competition don't they? I have a friend
: who installed a 12,000 gallon tank at an airport near here and directly
: competes against the full service FBO on the field. Because your field
: takes FAA funds you are guaranteed to get it approved although the
: process can be discouraging.

What exactly are the rules on this? The airport authority here has a rather draconian set of rules WRT "taxes" they
impose on other potential FBO's who might want to sell fuel. I suspect the rules are contrary to what the feds say is
allowable (but then again, so are a lot of other rules they've imposed as well).

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Newps]

wrote:

> : So why don't you buy and install a tank and pump and sell the fuel
> : yourself. Iowa still allows competition don't they? I have a friend
> : who installed a 12,000 gallon tank at an airport near here and directly
> : competes against the full service FBO on the field. Because your field
> : takes FAA funds you are guaranteed to get it approved although the
> : process can be discouraging.
>
> What exactly are the rules on this? The airport authority here has a rather draconian set of rules WRT "taxes" they
> impose on other potential FBO's who might want to sell fuel. I suspect the rules are contrary to what the feds say is
> allowable (but then again, so are a lot of other rules they've imposed as well).

You will have to do some research and get yourself educated. That
little airport near here tried to protect the FBO too because he and the
airport board president were buddies. It took about two years to get
the thing approved. They can't make you pay anything that the FBO
doesn't pay. Here the only fee is the flow tax, which is the same for
everybody. I believe it's a nickel a gallon. My buddy got the contract
for the college flight school on the field and as such he buys gas often
and at full tanker loads so he gets the best price. They probably have
$75K invested and the whole deal was paid for in about three years.
They are always priced well below the FBO, about 40-50 cents a gallon.

[Grumman-581[_3_]]

"M" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Fortunately, the autogas pump at AWO is usually only about 20c/gallon
> higher than the price on the street. I hope that'll make the flight
> school price their autofuel accordingly.

Currently, I have a 55g drum and I fill it up periodically... I *used* to be
able to fill it up near the airport, but thanks to the alcohol in the fuel
these days, I would have to drive around 30 miles (each way) to get it
filled up with *real* gas... That's not really worth it for just 55
gallons... I'm going to pick up a couple more 55g drums so that it would be
worthwhile... At around $10 per drum, they pay for themselves after the
first fillup as compared to avgas... I recently found a car wash that was
throwing away a 30g drum... I need to clean it up on the inside a bit with a
pressure washer, but all in all, I suspect that this size might even be more
convenient -- at least from a handling standpoint... You gotta be a bit
careful with the 55g drums when unloading them from your truck... They weigh
about 350 lbs full and you don't want to drop 'em and cause a leak... I
figure that I can probably put at least 6 of them in the back of my pickup,
but I'm not so sure I want that much weight back there... That's 2100 lbs
and that might be a bit much for what is supposedly classified as a 1/2 ton
pickup (Dodge QuadCab 1500 4x4)... Filling it with 30g drums would probably
be alright from a weight standpoint though...

[xyzzy]

Dave S wrote:
> The ONLY "downside" to this... which is subjective.. is that if the wet
> rate is lower because of this, also expect the "reimbursement" rate to
> reflect HIS cost per gallon of autofuel, and not YOUR cost per gallon of
> fuel bought away from the field on cross country.
>
> Its a matter of being informed ahead of time that you may spend $3-4/gal
> buying fuel remotely and only get $2-2.50 reimbursed based on this.

Is that a common practice? where I fly remote fuel reimbursement is
what you actually paid. You attach the fuel receipt to your statement
and simply deduct it from your bottom line price.

I just assumed that's how everyone does it. Of course our on-field FBO
is not the cheapest by any means either, so the club usually comes out
ahead on remote fueling.

[[email protected]]

In rec.aviation.owning xyzzy > wrote:

> Dave S wrote:
> > The ONLY "downside" to this... which is subjective.. is that if the wet
> > rate is lower because of this, also expect the "reimbursement" rate to
> > reflect HIS cost per gallon of autofuel, and not YOUR cost per gallon of
> > fuel bought away from the field on cross country.
> >
> > Its a matter of being informed ahead of time that you may spend $3-4/gal
> > buying fuel remotely and only get $2-2.50 reimbursed based on this.

> Is that a common practice? where I fly remote fuel reimbursement is
> what you actually paid. You attach the fuel receipt to your statement
> and simply deduct it from your bottom line price.

> I just assumed that's how everyone does it. Of course our on-field FBO
> is not the cheapest by any means either, so the club usually comes out
> ahead on remote fueling.

The local renter reimburses actual up to a maximum which is roughly
the average local price and usually around a half buck more than the
field price for full serve.

I once asked why and they replied they were more concerned about
someone running out of gas a mile short of the runway and what that
would do to the bottom line than they were about the couple of bucks
now and then for a pricey fillup.

--
Jim Pennino

Remove .spam.sux to reply.

[Jose[_1_]]

> Is that a common practice? where I fly remote fuel reimbursement is
> what you actually paid. You attach the fuel receipt to your statement
> and simply deduct it from your bottom line price.

It's probably common club practice (it is in our club - we get
reimbursed at the rate at our home base). FBOs tend to reimburse on
actual costs. I guess it's simpler accounting and a different pilot set.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Jay Honeck]

> My buddy got the contract
> for the college flight school on the field and as such he buys gas often
> and at full tanker loads so he gets the best price. They probably have
> $75K invested and the whole deal was paid for in about three years.
> They are always priced well below the FBO, about 40-50 cents a gallon.

That is COOL.

One of the flight schools on our field just went belly up. Not much
to be made on fuel sales around here, I'm afraid...
--
Jay Honeck
Iowa City, IA
Pathfinder N56993
www.AlexisParkInn.com
"Your Aviation Destination"

[[email protected]]

: The local renter reimburses actual up to a maximum which is roughly
: the average local price and usually around a half buck more than the
: field price for full serve.

: I once asked why and they replied they were more concerned about
: someone running out of gas a mile short of the runway and what that
: would do to the bottom line than they were about the couple of bucks
: now and then for a pricey fillup.

That is a much more sensible strategy IMO. As a club, it'd be much better to
tell the members, "We'll reimburse you the full cost, but if possible please plan to
require a minimum of fuel elsewhere."

Same as if you get stuck for weather. The local club here doesn't penalize a
renter if the plane gets stuck due to bad weather. It's a good idea to encourage
conservatism rather than having major financial incentive to "push" the weather to get
the plane home.

-Cory

--

************************************************** ***********************
* Cory Papenfuss, Ph.D., PPSEL-IA *
* Electrical Engineering *
* Virginia Polytechnic Institute and State University *
************************************************** ***********************

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jose" > wrote in message
m...
>> Is that a common practice? where I fly remote fuel reimbursement is
>> what you actually paid. You attach the fuel receipt to your statement
>> and simply deduct it from your bottom line price.
>
> It's probably common club practice (it is in our club - we get reimbursed
> at the rate at our home base). FBOs tend to reimburse on actual costs. I
> guess it's simpler accounting and a different pilot set.
>
> Jose


Reimbursing seems the logical way to do it. One would assume that wet rate
is based on the home fuel cost not some random number. By this same logic
though if home fuel cost is $4.00 and you are away and pay $3.80 you should
still be reimbursed for $4.00.

[Jose[_1_]]

> By this same logic
> though if home fuel cost is $4.00 and you are away and pay $3.80 you should
> still be reimbursed for $4.00.

This is correct. It's like an owner, who gets a bargain at $3.80 and a
bummer at $4.50.

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.