Solar storms spell trouble for GPS

[Larry Dighera]

http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
Solar storms spell trouble for GPS

SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
satellite navigation.

It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.

How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
not be practical, says Cerruti.

From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27

[Jim Macklin]

BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for a
reason, they are conveniences. CAL found Paris with just a
compass and a chart.



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
|
http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
| Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
|
| SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially
serious
| consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone
relying on
| satellite navigation.
|
| It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which
produce auroras
| and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the
1.2 and
| 1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
|
| How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only
became common
| during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar
flares will reach
| the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or
so
| Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a
meeting of
| the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last
week. The only
| solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites,
which may
| not be practical, says Cerruti.
|
| From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October
2006, page 27

[Peter R.]

Larry Dighera > wrote:

> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
> not be practical, says Cerruti.

GPS's Y2K, perhaps?

--
Peter

[ktbr]

So much for the rampant decomissioning of VORs NDBs
and LORAN, not to mention the NDB approaches that were
trashed because they are "useless" now that we have GPS.

[Matt Barrow]

"Peter R." > wrote in message
...
> Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
>> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
>> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
>> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
>> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
>> not be practical, says Cerruti.
>
> GPS's Y2K, perhaps?
>

Digging through old files on the hard drive reveals this:

Y2K Sale
FOR SALE - Cheap!
One 55-gallon drum of heating oil
Ten 55-gallon drums of water
10 cases of Poptarts
50 cases of canned fruits and vegetables
40 boxes of tampons
10 cases AAA batteries
One cow
One shotgun (with shells)
One pair night-vision goggles
One seven ton portable concrete bunker (lead-lined)
Will consider trade.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:53:16 -0400, "Peter R." >
wrote in >:

>Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
>> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
>> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
>> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
>> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
>> not be practical, says Cerruti.
>
>GPS's Y2K, perhaps?

Perhaps the European or Russian GPS systems operate in a frequency
band that won't be affected by solar flares. But, they may have other
issues:


http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/12_29b/briefs/galileo_gps_hack_192727-1.html?CMP=OTC-RSS

July 20, 2006

European GPS System Hacked Email this article |Print this article
By Mary Grady, Newswriter, Editor

When the Europeans who are working to develop their own GPS
system stalled on a promise to release the signal code to U.S.
researchers, a team at Cornell University decided to figure it out
for themselves. "Even Europeans were being frustrated," said Mark
Psiaki, leader of the Cornell engineering team. "Then it dawned on
me: Maybe we can pull these things off the air, just with an
antenna and lots of signal processing." He did just that, and
published his results in the June issue of GPS World. But while
the U.S. system is taxpayer-funded and its signal is free, the
Europeans intend to sell the signals from their Galileo satellites
to recoup some of the $4 billion cost. Psiaki says it won't work
to try to copyright the data. "Imagine someone builds a
lighthouse," he said. "And I've gone by and see how often the
light flashes and measured where the coordinates are. Can the
owner charge me a licensing fee for looking at the light? ... No.
How is looking at the Galileo satellite any different?" The
Galileo system is scheduled to enter service by 2010.


Hopefully, the new US GPS will address the solar flare issue:


http://www.informationweek.com/news/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=177103423
U.S.-European GPS Rivalry Heats Up

A U.S. official on Wednesday will unveil a next-generation GPS
system that the government promises will provide more commercial
features. The current GPS network has focused on military
requirements, but now the Europeans are readying Galileo.

By George Leopold Anne-Francoise Pele
EE Times

Jan 24, 2006 11:19 AM

WASHINGTON — The U.S. is raising the bar in its growing rivalry
with Europe over global positioning technology.

A U.S. official on Wednesday (Jan. 25) will unveil a
next-generation GPS system that the government is billing as
providing more commercial capabilities. The current GPS network is
controlled by the U.S. military, and civilian capabilities are
deliberately degraded out of security concerns.

The Commerce Department said Deputy Secretary David Sampson will
unveil the new system at a next-generation GPS forum hosted by the
U.S. Chamber of Commerce. The upgraded system will include a
second civilian GPS channel "enabling significant improvements in
accuracy and reliability," the department said in a statement.

Executives from General Motors, IBM, Lucent Technologies and
Trimble Navigation are also scheduled to appear at the GPS forum.
Also attending will be members of the U.S. GPS Industry Council
along with state officials and university researchers.

The U.S. move follows recent milestones in Europe, where the
European Commission and the European Space Agency (ESA) are
readying its GPS entry, Galileo. On Jan. 12, ESA's Giove-A test
satellite broadcast its first signals from Earth orbit. The
navigation satellite was launched on Dec. 28 from Baikonur
Cosmodrome in Kazahstan.

Giove-A, which stands for Galileo In-Orbit Validation Element,
will test frequencies allocated for the Galileo constellation by
the International Telecommunications Union.

ESA and the European consortium building Galileo signed a 950
million euro ($1.167 billion) contract on Jan. 19 to complete the
second phase of the European GPS project. The partners have agreed
to develop and construct the first four satellites in the planned
26-satellite Galileo constellation. Construction is scheduled to
be completed by 2010.

The third phase will include launch of the entire Galileo network.
Total cost is estimated at 3.6 billion euros ($4.42 billion).


But there is always this issue: http://gbppr.dyndns.org/PROJ/mil/gps/

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
>:

>
>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for a
>reason, they are conveniences.

Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented? I just
thought it might be a good idea to provide the information to those
weren't.

Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass ejections, that
can potentially knock out any satellite.

It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some technological innovation
tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy with the
apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early systems.


CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.

Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never seen one of those
in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.


* http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm

[Matt Barrow]

"ktbr" > wrote in message
...
> So much for the rampant decomissioning of VORs NDBs
> and LORAN, not to mention the NDB approaches that were
> trashed because they are "useless" now that we have GPS.

Interference that would cause a deterioration in the GPS system would
do...what?, to the LORAN and NDB's?

[Ron Wanttaja]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote:

> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail.

The sun is on an 11-year cycle. If 2011 is the date of the max (and we are
apparently in the minimum now), the LAST max was about 2000. Unless the author
believes that GPS receivers only became common after 2000, the user community
has already been through one solar max period.

Ron Wanttaja

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 12:36:06 GMT, ktbr > wrote in
>:

>So much for the rampant decomissioning of VORs NDBs
>and LORAN, not to mention the NDB approaches that were
>trashed because they are "useless" now that we have GPS.

Good point(s). It really renews one's faith in our government. :-(

[peter]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>
> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
> satellite navigation.
....
> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. ...

Of course this newsgroup was alive and well during the last solar
maximum and there were no widespread failures reported. Sam kept us
informed with the bulletins on current solar activity, but I noticed
only minor effects on my consumer-level GPS receivers. I still have
the tracklogs recorded in 2000 during the maximum and they don't
support the dire predictions of the above article.

[Walt]

FWIW, the last solar maximum occured around 2001, and GPS was in common
use then; I know I was using mine on a pretty regular basis then.

I don't recall any widespread disruptions. Not even slimspread
disruptions. :>)

I'm thinking this may be much ado about nothing.

--Walt
Bozeman, Montana


Larry Dighera wrote:
> http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>
> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
> satellite navigation.
>
> It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
> and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
> 1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
>
> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
> not be practical, says Cerruti.
>
> From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:44:32 -0700, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote in
>:

>On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>
>> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
>> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail.
>
>The sun is on an 11-year cycle. If 2011 is the date of the max (and we are
>apparently in the minimum now), the LAST max was about 2000.

Of course, natural phenomena can be somewhat erratic, but you astute
analysis seems relatively consistent with International Space
Environment Service observations/projections:
http://www.sec.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/

>Unless the author believes that GPS receivers only became common after
>2000, the user community has already been through one solar max period.

Apparently it was Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University who raised
the concern, not the New Scientist author. But, you are correct about
having used GPS during the 2000 - 2003 peak period. I don't recall
any anomalous GPS behavior back then, but I do recall a solar storm
that caused my garage door opener to spontaneously open and close the
door repeatedly one day.

[Larry Dighera]

On 25 Oct 2006 06:54:19 -0700, "peter" > wrote in
. com>:

>I still have
>the tracklogs recorded in 2000 during the maximum and they don't
>support the dire predictions of the above article.

Agreed. But I did notice other radio controlled devices
malfunctioning.

[Aluckyguess]

"Walt" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> FWIW, the last solar maximum occured around 2001, and GPS was in common
> use then;


This is actually all global warming is. Hot spots in the sun.
Im not worried.

>
> I don't recall any widespread disruptions. Not even slimspread
> disruptions. :>)
>
> I'm thinking this may be much ado about nothing.
>
> --Walt
> Bozeman, Montana
>
>
> Larry Dighera wrote:
>> http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
>> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>>
>> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
>> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
>> satellite navigation.
>>
>> It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
>> and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
>> 1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
>>
>> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
>> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
>> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
>> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
>> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
>> not be practical, says Cerruti.
>>
>> From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27
>

[Larry Dighera]

On 25 Oct 2006 07:00:43 -0700, "Walt" > wrote in
. com>:

>
>FWIW, the last solar maximum occured around 2001, and GPS was in common
>use then; I know I was using mine on a pretty regular basis then.
>
>I don't recall any widespread disruptions. Not even slimspread
>disruptions. :>)
>
>I'm thinking this may be much ado about nothing.

Perhaps you might bring this up with Professor Paul Kintner
): http://people.ece.cornell.edu/paul/

Here's some more information:

http://www.news.cornell.edu/stories/Sept06/solar.flares.gps.TO.html
Sept. 26, 2006
Solar flares cause GPS failures, possibly devastating for jets and
distress calls, Cornell researchers warn.
Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York



http://www.ion.org/meetings/gnss2006/abstracts.cfm?track=D&session=3#p5
Observed GPS and WAAS Signal-to-Noise Degradation Due to Solar Radio
Bursts
A. Cerruti, Cornell University

GPS signals, systems, and navigation accuracy are vulnerable to a
variety of space weather effects that are caused mostly by the
ionosphere. However, the sun, which is sometimes a strong radio
source, is the cause of GPS signal interference presented here. The
first direct observations of GPS L1 (1.57542 GHz) signal-to-noise
ratio degradation on two different models of GPS receivers due to the
solar radio burst associated with the 7 September 2005 solar flare are
presented.

Signal-to-noise ratio data from three identical, collocated receivers
at Arecibo Observatory and also from four identical receivers of a
different model located in Brazil, were available at the time of the
solar radio burst. These receivers were all in the sun-lit hemisphere
and all were affected similarly. The maximum solar radio burst power
associated with the 7 September 2005 flare had a peak intensity of
about 8,700 solar flux units (1 SFU = 10-22 W/m2-Hz) RHCP at 1,600
MHz, which caused a corresponding decrease in the signal-to-noise
ratio of about 2.3 dB across all visible satellites. Only the
right-hand, circularly polarized (RHCP) emissions affected the GPS
signals.

To confirm the effect, the solar radio burst associated with the 28
October 2003 flare was investigated. Although polarization data were
not available for this event, the maximum degradation at GPS L1 was
about 3.0 dB, and a degradation of 10 dB was observed on the
semi-codeless L2 signal for a solar radio burst of 13,600 SFU.

The event analyzed herein can be used to scale historical solar radio
bursts of 80,000 SFU. Decreases of 12 dB (21 dB) in the L1 (L2,
semi-codeless) signal-to-noise ratio are implied along with loss of
tracking for inadequately designed GPS receivers. Since solar radio
bursts affect all satellites in view of a receiver, all receivers in
the sun-lit hemisphere, the new Galileo navigation system, and all
space-based augmentation systems such as WAAS and EGNOS, they are a
potential threat to life-critical systems.



Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas: http://www.ion.org/

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> > wrote in
> >:
>
>
>>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for a
>>reason, they are conveniences.
>
>
> Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented? I just
> thought it might be a good idea to provide the information to those
> weren't.
>
> Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass ejections, that
> can potentially knock out any satellite.
>
> It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some technological innovation
> tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy with the
> apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early systems.
>
>
> CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
>
> Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never seen one of those
> in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
>
>
> * http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm


Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth is overdue for a pole
reversal. According to the program, we are already seeing issues towards
that. Interesting program.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 07:24:58 -0700, "Aluckyguess" > wrote in
>:

>Im not worried.

Perhaps you should throw your hat in the ring:
http://politicalhumor.about.com/library/images/blbushworry2.htm

[Mxsmanic]

This is a rather alarmist exaggeration of reality.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Larry Dighera writes:

> Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented?

What design flaw?

> It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some technological innovation
> tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy with the
> apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early systems.

They seem to be designed just like personal computers, which is very
bad and very dangerous for safety-of-life systems.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Larry Dighera writes:

> The current GPS network is controlled by the U.S. military, and
> civilian capabilities are deliberately degraded out of security concerns.

This deliberate degradation (Selective Availability, or SA) was
eliminated years ago.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Matt Barrow writes:

> Interference that would cause a deterioration in the GPS system would
> do...what?, to the LORAN and NDB's?

Much less than it does to satellites, although nothing using RF energy
is immune.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Gene Seibel]

Guess we'll have to fly at night. ;) ;)
--
Gene Seibel
Gene & Sue's Aeroplanes - http://pad39a.com/gene/planes.html
Because we fly, we envy no one.



Larry Dighera wrote:
> http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>
> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
> satellite navigation.
>
> It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
> and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
> 1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
>
> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
> Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
> the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
> solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
> not be practical, says Cerruti.
>
> From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27

[Jim Macklin]

An early version if the slaved compass, just like nearly all
cabin class and all G1000 systems use.



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >
| >BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for
a
| >reason, they are conveniences.
|
| Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented?
I just
| thought it might be a good idea to provide the information
to those
| weren't.
|
| Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
ejections, that
| can potentially knock out any satellite.
|
| It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
technological innovation
| tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy
with the
| apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early
systems.
|
|
| CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
|
| Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never seen
one of those
| in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
|
|
| * http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm

[Jim Macklin]

The Earth is rotating and orbiting within a strong magnetic
field of the Sun, [not to mention the whole Universe].

The magnetic pole is not located on the axis and as a result
the variation wanders. It appears that the Earth's magnetic
field is electromagnetic and AC.

The Earth doesn't physically flip over, the phase angle
flips.



"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
| Larry Dighera wrote:
| > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > > wrote in
| > >:
| >
| >
| >>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for
a
| >>reason, they are conveniences.
| >
| >
| > Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented?
I just
| > thought it might be a good idea to provide the
information to those
| > weren't.
| >
| > Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
ejections, that
| > can potentially knock out any satellite.
| >
| > It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
technological innovation
| > tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy
with the
| > apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early
systems.
| >
| >
| > CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
| >
| > Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never
seen one of those
| > in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
| >
| >
| > * http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
|
|
| Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth is
overdue for a pole
| reversal. According to the program, we are already seeing
issues towards
| that. Interesting program.
|
| --
|
| Regards, Ross
| C-172F 180HP
| KSWI

[Jim Macklin]

The aircraft had a dual King 660 FM system with GPS.
<STRONG> Dick Rutan - Voyager Flight Fun Facts Voyager's
flight was the first-ever, non-stop, unrefueled flight
around the world. It took place between December 14 and
December 23, 1986. ...
www.dickrutan.com/page2.html - 5k - Cached - Similar
pages

1986





"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:44:32 -0700, Ron Wanttaja
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera
> wrote:
| >
| >> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only
became common
| >> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar
flares will reach
| >> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail.
| >
| >The sun is on an 11-year cycle. If 2011 is the date of
the max (and we are
| >apparently in the minimum now), the LAST max was about
2000.
|
| Of course, natural phenomena can be somewhat erratic, but
you astute
| analysis seems relatively consistent with International
Space
| Environment Service observations/projections:
| http://www.sec.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/
|
| >Unless the author believes that GPS receivers only became
common after
| >2000, the user community has already been through one
solar max period.
|
| Apparently it was Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University
who raised
| the concern, not the New Scientist author. But, you are
correct about
| having used GPS during the 2000 - 2003 peak period. I
don't recall
| any anomalous GPS behavior back then, but I do recall a
solar storm
| that caused my garage door opener to spontaneously open
and close the
| door repeatedly one day.
|

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> The Earth is rotating and orbiting within a strong magnetic
> field of the Sun, [not to mention the whole Universe].
>
> The magnetic pole is not located on the axis and as a result
> the variation wanders. It appears that the Earth's magnetic
> field is electromagnetic and AC.
>
> The Earth doesn't physically flip over, the phase angle
> flips.
>
>
>
> "Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
> ...
> | Larry Dighera wrote:
> | > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> | > > wrote in
> | > >:
> | >
> | >
> | >>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for
> a
> | >>reason, they are conveniences.
> | >
> | >
> | > Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented?
> I just
> | > thought it might be a good idea to provide the
> information to those
> | > weren't.
> | >
> | > Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
> ejections, that
> | > can potentially knock out any satellite.
> | >
> | > It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
> technological innovation
> | > tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy
> with the
> | > apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early
> systems.
> | >
> | >
> | > CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
> | >
> | > Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never
> seen one of those
> | > in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
> | >
> | >
> | > * http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
> |
> |
> | Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth is
> overdue for a pole
> | reversal. According to the program, we are already seeing
> issues towards
> | that. Interesting program.
> |
> | --
> |
> | Regards, Ross
> | C-172F 180HP
> | KSWI
>
>
What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the magnetic
core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K years. Geologist
know how to figure this out from core samples. They said the last one
was over 700K years ago. The north magnetic pole (as we know it) flips
to the south pole.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[RST Engineering]

Then we need to resurrect the Tate Compass Company, who installed the
magnets in their compasses backwards so that North was South, East was West.

This started the old saying, "He who has a Tate's is lost".

Jim


> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the magnetic core
> within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K years. Geologist know how
> to figure this out from core samples. They said the last one was over 700K
> years ago. The north magnetic pole (as we know it) flips to the south
> pole.
>
> --
>
> Regards, Ross
> C-172F 180HP
> KSWI

[Larry Dighera]

>
>"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
>| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
>| > wrote in
>| >:
>|
>| >
>| >BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for
>a
>| >reason, they are conveniences.
>|
>| Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as implemented?
>I just
>| thought it might be a good idea to provide the information
>to those
>| weren't.
>|
>| Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
>ejections, that
>| can potentially knock out any satellite.
>|
>| It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
>technological innovation
>| tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy
>with the
>| apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early
>systems.
>|
>|
>| CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
>|
>| Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never seen
>one of those
>| in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
>|
>|
>| * http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
>
On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:38:27 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
>:

>An early version if the slaved compass, just like nearly all
>cabin class and all G1000 systems use.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a slaved compass require
electrical power to operate? "Slim's" Earth Inductor Compass didn't
require any power except that generated by the coil rotating in the
Earth's magnetic field. So if I'm correct, those pilots flying behind
a dead glass-cockpit would only have a whiskey compass to navigate
with.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:46:39 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
>:

>The aircraft had a dual King 660 FM system with GPS.
><STRONG> Dick Rutan - Voyager Flight Fun Facts Voyager's
>flight was the first-ever, non-stop, unrefueled flight
>around the world. It took place between December 14 and
>December 23, 1986. ...
> www.dickrutan.com/page2.html - 5k - Cached - Similar
>pages
>
> 1986

I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that relates to anything I wrote in
the article to which you are following up.

[Jim Macklin]

Or it just does like the AC current in the power grid and
switch to the other side of the power curve. The actual
material doesn't have to move, the energy to flip over
billions of tons of spinning matter isn't there. But as an
A/C generator, it is just a question of electrons.




"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > The Earth is rotating and orbiting within a strong
magnetic
| > field of the Sun, [not to mention the whole Universe].
| >
| > The magnetic pole is not located on the axis and as a
result
| > the variation wanders. It appears that the Earth's
magnetic
| > field is electromagnetic and AC.
| >
| > The Earth doesn't physically flip over, the phase angle
| > flips.
| >
| >
| >
| > "Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
| > ...
| > | Larry Dighera wrote:
| > | > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > | > > wrote in
| > | > >:
| > | >
| > | >
| > | >>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation
for
| > a
| > | >>reason, they are conveniences.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as
implemented?
| > I just
| > | > thought it might be a good idea to provide the
| > information to those
| > | > weren't.
| > | >
| > | > Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
| > ejections, that
| > | > can potentially knock out any satellite.
| > | >
| > | > It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
| > technological innovation
| > | > tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming
uneasy
| > with the
| > | > apparent lack of robustness engineered in these
early
| > systems.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
| > | >
| > | > Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never
| > seen one of those
| > | > in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone
piloted.
| > | >
| > | >
| > | > *
http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
| > |
| > |
| > | Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth is
| > overdue for a pole
| > | reversal. According to the program, we are already
seeing
| > issues towards
| > | that. Interesting program.
| > |
| > | --
| > |
| > | Regards, Ross
| > | C-172F 180HP
| > | KSWI
| >
| >
| What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is
the magnetic
| core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
years. Geologist
| know how to figure this out from core samples. They said
the last one
| was over 700K years ago. The north magnetic pole (as we
know it) flips
| to the south pole.
|
| --
|
| Regards, Ross
| C-172F 180HP
| KSWI

[Jim Macklin]

There a post about the age of GPS, I just pointed out that
it was commercially available and used in 1986. Our news
servers had some problems, your post was what I had visible.
I don't recall seeing any thing I wrote that should have
insulted you.



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:46:39 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >The aircraft had a dual King 660 FM system with GPS.
| ><STRONG> Dick Rutan - Voyager Flight Fun Facts Voyager's
| >flight was the first-ever, non-stop, unrefueled flight
| >around the world. It took place between December 14 and
| >December 23, 1986. ...
| > www.dickrutan.com/page2.html - 5k - Cached -
Similar
| >pages
| >
| > 1986
|
| I'm sorry, but I fail to see how that relates to anything
I wrote in
| the article to which you are following up.
|

[Jim Macklin]

The Earth compass, was powered by a windmill, just as many
crop dusters power their spray pumps, and similarly to using
a venturi to power gyros, if you're flying you have power.
Using a retractable generator is even part of the modern jet
airliner.

Yes, when your G1000 dies, you will have very limited
navigation or even communication options. Check out the
difference between a Beech Baron or Bonanza G36/G58 and a
Cessna NAV III on the manual section at Garmin. com




"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
|
| >
| >"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
| ...
| >| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| >| > wrote in
| >| >:
| >|
| >| >
| >| >BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation
for
| >a
| >| >reason, they are conveniences.
| >|
| >| Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as
implemented?
| >I just
| >| thought it might be a good idea to provide the
information
| >to those
| >| weren't.
| >|
| >| Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
| >ejections, that
| >| can potentially knock out any satellite.
| >|
| >| It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
| >technological innovation
| >| tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming uneasy
| >with the
| >| apparent lack of robustness engineered in these early
| >systems.
| >|
| >|
| >| CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
| >|
| >| Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never
seen
| >one of those
| >| in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone piloted.
| >|
| >|
| >| *
http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
| >
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:38:27 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >An early version if the slaved compass, just like nearly
all
| >cabin class and all G1000 systems use.
|
| Correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't a slaved compass
require
| electrical power to operate? "Slim's" Earth Inductor
Compass didn't
| require any power except that generated by the coil
rotating in the
| Earth's magnetic field. So if I'm correct, those pilots
flying behind
| a dead glass-cockpit would only have a whiskey compass to
navigate
| with.

[.Blueskies.]

"RST Engineering" > wrote in message ...
: Then we need to resurrect the Tate Compass Company, who installed the
: magnets in their compasses backwards so that North was South, East was West.
:
: This started the old saying, "He who has a Tate's is lost".
:
: Jim
:
:
:

My daughter says that joke should die....


;-)

[Bob Fry]

>>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
RR> samples.

Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the earth's core.
Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and iron
particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get enough of
those samples which were molten at different geologic periods and you
can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.

[Jim Macklin]

If the core is 1,000 miles in diameter, the forces required
to actually tumble the semi-solid material, overcoming the
friction with mantle and the gyroscopic forces would be so
great that the Earth would not survive. In fact, I have a
theory.

The planet Venus orbits the Sun in the same direction as all
the other planets, but it rotates backward. I think Venus
was a wanderer and struck the Earth, knocking it into the 23
incline, slowing Venus enough to be captured in the Sun
gravity as an orbiting planet and also giving Venus its
backward rotation. This collision also created the Moon.


--
James H. Macklin
ATP,CFI,A&P

"Bob Fry" > wrote in message
...
| >>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson >
writes:
| RR> What this program stated and I had read it
elsewhere, is the
| RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every
200K to 700K
| RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from
core
| RR> samples.
|
| Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the
earth's core.
| Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and
iron
| particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get
enough of
| those samples which were molten at different geologic
periods and you
| can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:49:46 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
>:

>
>There a post about the age of GPS, I just pointed out that
>it was commercially available and used in 1986. Our news
>servers had some problems, your post was what I had visible.

Ah, I see. And your point is that GPS has been around a long time,
and you have heard no mention of anomalous behavior due to solar
storms. But if you look at the information in some of the links I
posted, you'll find that those who are intimately involved with GPS
operations have observed significant errors in various locations as a
result of changes in the ionosphere such as convective plasma
currents, etc.

>I don't recall seeing any thing I wrote that should have
>insulted you.

I wasn't insulted; confused.

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:54:17 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote in
>:

>The Earth compass, was powered by a windmill, just as many
>crop dusters power their spray pumps, and similarly to using
>a venturi to power gyros, if you're flying you have power.
>Using a retractable generator is even part of the modern jet
>airliner.

A propeller turned an armature, but there were no field coils; the
Earth's magnetic field played that role; thus no battery, nor
generator, nor venturi, nor vacuum pump nor any other power source was
required to operate it, unlike a slaved compass..

>Yes, when your G1000 dies, you will have very limited
>navigation or even communication options.

If you're in IMC at the time of such a failure, you're only landing
option will be a GCA approach, unless you have portable Nav equipment.

>Check out the
>difference between a Beech Baron or Bonanza G36/G58 and a
>Cessna NAV III on the manual section at Garmin. com

What will I find?

[cjcampbell]

Jim Macklin wrote:
> BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for a
> reason, they are conveniences. CAL found Paris with just a
> compass and a chart.

Well, he did have to ask directions.

[cjcampbell]

Larry Dighera wrote:
> http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>
> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
> satellite navigation.

The trouble with the Chicken Littles of the world is that they cry
"Wolf!" far too often (how is that for mixing allegories?). When I was
in college, the Club of Rome assured us we would be completely out of
resources by 1980. Earlier than that, we were going to have a complete
totalitarian takeover by 1984. The world was going to end with the Y2K
"bug" on Jan 1, 2000. And when that didn't happen, then it was going to
end on Jan 1, 2001. Every slot machine in Las Vegas was going to empty
itself at midnight on Dec 31, 1999 because it would suddenly indicate
that it had not paid since 1899 or something like that. The solar
flares were supposed to destroy all radio communications in the 1980s,
then the 1990s, then in 2000, now 2011. The peak activity cycle appears
to be constantly pushed back by these doomsayers.

Someday, of course, they will be right, and they will all get to say "I
told you so!" except we will all be dead because we stopped listening
to them. Someday the solar flares will shut down all the radios. And
all the airplanes will fall out of the sky and all the ships will hit
icebergs (if they have not all melted by then) and the earth's magnetic
field will flip--flop and the asteroid will hit and the giant
super-volcano will erupt and a tsunami 5 kilometers high will hit the
coast and California will fall into the sea and we will not be able to
do anything about it because we will have used all of our nuclear
weapons to knock ourselves back to the stone age and all the resources
will be gone and we will be reduced to driving horse and buggies but
the hoof and mouth will get the horses and we will have to support
ourselves by selling our kidneys but someone will already have stolen
one of them and, anyway we will all be living on rafts because the
icecaps will have melted and our rafts will be sliding around on the
global ice sheets caused by the icecaps melting.

Maybe I am just an old fool, but I suspect that if there is really a
problem that somebody else who has an actual engineering degree will
solve it and make a lot of money doing it. Or maybe somebody will just
convince all the politicians that there is a problem where there is not
one and we will just have our taxes doubled to pay for an unneeded
solution.

[Doug[_1_]]

Garner Ted Armstrong and the Worldwide Church of God predicted all
sorts of things that never came true. Thing is, his disiples dont care
that he was wrong. They just edited all that out and kept on
preachin'...

[Jim Macklin]

But a properly trained pilot and his passengers are
dependent on a perfect GPS, VOR or Lycoming engine.



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:49:46 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >
| >There a post about the age of GPS, I just pointed out
that
| >it was commercially available and used in 1986. Our news
| >servers had some problems, your post was what I had
visible.
|
| Ah, I see. And your point is that GPS has been around a
long time,
| and you have heard no mention of anomalous behavior due to
solar
| storms. But if you look at the information in some of the
links I
| posted, you'll find that those who are intimately involved
with GPS
| operations have observed significant errors in various
locations as a
| result of changes in the ionosphere such as convective
plasma
| currents, etc.
|
| >I don't recall seeing any thing I wrote that should have
| >insulted you.
|
| I wasn't insulted; confused.

[Jim Macklin]

One point, any proper weather briefing will determine where
and how far VFR conditions exist. Did that 30 years ago.
If you don't have any more than a compass you can find North
Dakota or Texas from Chicago or Atlanta. Today, even a $100
GPS will steer you pretty well ands aircraft walkie-talkies
are common, not so 30 years ago. But even without GPS or
radar, I could find a safe place to land.



"Larry Dighera" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:54:17 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote in
| >:
|
| >The Earth compass, was powered by a windmill, just as
many
| >crop dusters power their spray pumps, and similarly to
using
| >a venturi to power gyros, if you're flying you have
power.
| >Using a retractable generator is even part of the modern
jet
| >airliner.
|
| A propeller turned an armature, but there were no field
coils; the
| Earth's magnetic field played that role; thus no battery,
nor
| generator, nor venturi, nor vacuum pump nor any other
power source was
| required to operate it, unlike a slaved compass..
|
| >Yes, when your G1000 dies, you will have very limited
| >navigation or even communication options.
|
| If you're in IMC at the time of such a failure, you're
only landing
| option will be a GCA approach, unless you have portable
Nav equipment.
|
| >Check out the
| >difference between a Beech Baron or Bonanza G36/G58 and a
| >Cessna NAV III on the manual section at Garmin. com
|
| What will I find?

[Jim Macklin]

But the fishermen didn't answer.



"cjcampbell" > wrote in
message
ps.com...
|
| Jim Macklin wrote:
| > BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation for
a
| > reason, they are conveniences. CAL found Paris with
just a
| > compass and a chart.
|
| Well, he did have to ask directions.
|

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
>Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>
>SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
>consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
>satellite navigation.
>

As almost any pilot can tell you, this is old news.

>It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
>and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
>1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
>
>How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common

It wasn't except for those who weren't looking. Why do you supposed
the government decided we needed to keep a non satellite based backup
system operational.

>during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
>Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of
>the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
>solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may
>not be practical, says Cerruti.
>
>From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:14:05 -0700, Bob Fry >
wrote:

>>>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
> RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
> RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
> RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
> RR> samples.
>
>Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the earth's core.
>Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and iron
>particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get enough of
>those samples which were molten at different geologic periods and you
>can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.

They've done a lot of studying along the mid Atlantic ridge.

The reversals are laid out in a series of roughly parallel lines.




Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote:

>http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
>Solar storms spell trouble for GPS

I wonder where Cerutti has been for the last few years. The military
has talked about it, hell, it's even been discussed on here.

>
>SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
>consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
>satellite navigation.
>
>It turns out these bursts of charged particles, which produce auroras
>and geomagnetic storms, also generate radio waves in the 1.2 and
>1.6-gigahertz bands used by GPS.
>
>How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common

It wasn't, at least not by those paying attention.
Just a bit over two years ago we had some of the strongest solar
flares on record. Not *the* strongest, but that was because they
pretty much missed us. The aurora was visible all the way to Mexico
and there have been at least two instances of interruptions to GPS in
the last five years.

>during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail. Or so
>Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University, New York, told a meeting of

It's happened twice already. How come he didn't know.

>the Institute of Navigation in Fort Worth, Texas, last week. The only
>solution would be to redesign GPS receivers or satellites, which may

If you blanket a frequency used by a system with signals stronger than
the system generates, or strong enough to block the receivers,
redesigning them is not going to help unless you move the operational
frequency to something that is not interfered with by anything.
Maybe they could 2.4 Gigs<:-))


>not be practical, says Cerruti.

As with past interruptions they only lasted a few hours. Of course if
we ended up with a coronal mass ejection in the record class pointed
straight at us we might lose more than a few satellites, hardened or
not. This has also been discussed concerning the safety of
astronauts, but they *think* they'd be safe in the most heavily
shielded parts of the space station.
>
>From issue 2572 of New Scientist magazine, 07 October 2006, page 27

I have talked to stations on nearly every continent using signals
reflected off the Ionosphere during an aurora. OTOH I have seen aurora
so strong instead of reflecting signals it absorbed them. That was
just about two years ago. When it gets that strong few signals make
it through. I think that one created about a two hour outage.

Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:46:22 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Or it just does like the AC current in the power grid and
>switch to the other side of the power curve. The actual
>material doesn't have to move, the energy to flip over
>billions of tons of spinning matter isn't there. But as an
>A/C generator, it is just a question of electrons.

A while back Scientific American devoted a lot of space to this. There
was also a program on it at least a year ago.

Apparently the core is not a uniform spinning mass. There are
convection currents up and down as well as the circulating currents we
normally think of. Depending on the orientation, the flow across the
top may be N,S, E, W, or some where in between. It appears the
reversals are not a singular event, but may happen in stages and at
different times through out the overall reversal. I don't think they
are even sure of how these events may even interact...if they do.

I've not seen any information on the total time expected for a
complete reversal to happen. Indications (some isolated events that
appear to be reversals) are that we are starting into or could be well
into a change. Does it take 10 years, 100 years, or a 1000 years once
its started? I don't think any one knows enough to even make a guess
except for those based on core samples which are again going to be
local. OTOH I believe they are pretty well documented along the mid
Atlantic ridge which is probably the best accessible global record
that spans many millions of years. There they have done surveys using
magnetometers to get some pretty detailed maps along with a number of
core samples. http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/reversals.html
>
A comparable surface feature is the mid African rift valley where the
rift and active volcanoes can be seen. That is one wide valley, but
the eastern walls are virtually straight up. I've never seen the
western side..

Now stop and think... The New Madrid fault lies atop a "failed rift"
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/states/events/1811-1812.php#february_7
between St Louis and Memphis. What if it decided to start opening
again? Even a major quake along that fault would be something to
behold. They figure if it lets go like it did back in 1812 there
would be substantial damage clear up into lower Michigan and it'd
shake the skyscrapers in NY and NJ. These have not been single events
but a series of large events over several months.



>
>
>
>"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
...
>| Jim Macklin wrote:
>| > The Earth is rotating and orbiting within a strong
>magnetic
>| > field of the Sun, [not to mention the whole Universe].
>| >
>| > The magnetic pole is not located on the axis and as a
>result
>| > the variation wanders. It appears that the Earth's
>magnetic
>| > field is electromagnetic and AC.
>| >
>| > The Earth doesn't physically flip over, the phase angle
>| > flips.
>| >
>| >
>| >
>| > "Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
>| > ...
>| > | Larry Dighera wrote:
>| > | > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
>| > | > > wrote in
>| > | > >:
>| > | >
>| > | >
>| > | >>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to navigation
>for
>| > a
>| > | >>reason, they are conveniences.
>| > | >
>| > | >
>| > | > Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as
>implemented?
>| > I just
>| > | > thought it might be a good idea to provide the
>| > information to those
>| > | > weren't.
>| > | >
>| > | > Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar mass
>| > ejections, that
>| > | > can potentially knock out any satellite.
>| > | >
>| > | > It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
>| > technological innovation
>| > | > tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming
>uneasy
>| > with the
>| > | > apparent lack of robustness engineered in these
>early
>| > systems.
>| > | >
>| > | >
>| > | > CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
>| > | >
>| > | > Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've never
>| > seen one of those
>| > | > in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone
>piloted.
>| > | >
>| > | >
>| > | > *
>http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
>| > |
>| > |
>| > | Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth is
>| > overdue for a pole
>| > | reversal. According to the program, we are already
>seeing
>| > issues towards
>| > | that. Interesting program.
>| > |
>| > | --
>| > |
>| > | Regards, Ross
>| > | C-172F 180HP
>| > | KSWI
>| >
>| >
>| What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is
>the magnetic
>| core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
>years. Geologist
>| know how to figure this out from core samples. They said
>the last one
>| was over 700K years ago. The north magnetic pole (as we
>know it) flips
>| to the south pole.
>|
>| --
>|
>| Regards, Ross
>| C-172F 180HP
>| KSWI
>
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:14:05 -0700, Bob Fry >
wrote:

>>>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
> RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
> RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
> RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
> RR> samples.
>
>Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the earth's core.

Core samples as in core samples, but not samples from the core.
Core samples are just samples cut with a circular or pipe like drill
from which they remove the "core". Much like coring an apple.


>Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and iron
>particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get enough of
>those samples which were molten at different geologic periods and you
>can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.
Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jim Macklin]

Fact is the more humans learn about geology, the more we
learn we don't know.



"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
| On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 17:46:22 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >Or it just does like the AC current in the power grid and
| >switch to the other side of the power curve. The actual
| >material doesn't have to move, the energy to flip over
| >billions of tons of spinning matter isn't there. But as
an
| >A/C generator, it is just a question of electrons.
|
| A while back Scientific American devoted a lot of space to
this. There
| was also a program on it at least a year ago.
|
| Apparently the core is not a uniform spinning mass. There
are
| convection currents up and down as well as the circulating
currents we
| normally think of. Depending on the orientation, the flow
across the
| top may be N,S, E, W, or some where in between. It
appears the
| reversals are not a singular event, but may happen in
stages and at
| different times through out the overall reversal. I don't
think they
| are even sure of how these events may even interact...if
they do.
|
| I've not seen any information on the total time expected
for a
| complete reversal to happen. Indications (some isolated
events that
| appear to be reversals) are that we are starting into or
could be well
| into a change. Does it take 10 years, 100 years, or a 1000
years once
| its started? I don't think any one knows enough to even
make a guess
| except for those based on core samples which are again
going to be
| local. OTOH I believe they are pretty well documented
along the mid
| Atlantic ridge which is probably the best accessible
global record
| that spans many millions of years. There they have done
surveys using
| magnetometers to get some pretty detailed maps along with
a number of
| core samples. http://www.geomag.bgs.ac.uk/reversals.html
| >
| A comparable surface feature is the mid African rift
valley where the
| rift and active volcanoes can be seen. That is one wide
valley, but
| the eastern walls are virtually straight up. I've never
seen the
| western side..
|
| Now stop and think... The New Madrid fault lies atop a
"failed rift"
|
http://earthquake.usgs.gov/regional/states/events/1811-1812.php#february_7
| between St Louis and Memphis. What if it decided to start
opening
| again? Even a major quake along that fault would be
something to
| behold. They figure if it lets go like it did back in
1812 there
| would be substantial damage clear up into lower Michigan
and it'd
| shake the skyscrapers in NY and NJ. These have not been
single events
| but a series of large events over several months.
|
|
|
| >
| >
| >
| >"Ross Richardson" > wrote in message
| ...
| >| Jim Macklin wrote:
| >| > The Earth is rotating and orbiting within a strong
| >magnetic
| >| > field of the Sun, [not to mention the whole
Universe].
| >| >
| >| > The magnetic pole is not located on the axis and as a
| >result
| >| > the variation wanders. It appears that the Earth's
| >magnetic
| >| > field is electromagnetic and AC.
| >| >
| >| > The Earth doesn't physically flip over, the phase
angle
| >| > flips.
| >| >
| >| >
| >| >
| >| > "Ross Richardson" > wrote in
message
| >| > ...
| >| > | Larry Dighera wrote:
| >| > | > On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:17:38 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| >| > | > > wrote in
| >| > | > >:
| >| > | >
| >| > | >
| >| > | >>BFD, All those radios are called Aids to
navigation
| >for
| >| > a
| >| > | >>reason, they are conveniences.
| >| > | >
| >| > | >
| >| > | > Were you aware of the design flaw in GPS as
| >implemented?
| >| > I just
| >| > | > thought it might be a good idea to provide the
| >| > information to those
| >| > | > weren't.
| >| > | >
| >| > | > Of course, this issue makes no mention of solar
mass
| >| > ejections, that
| >| > | > can potentially knock out any satellite.
| >| > | >
| >| > | > It appears that we are (finally?) seeing some
| >| > technological innovation
| >| > | > tickling down to the GA fleet, but I'm becoming
| >uneasy
| >| > with the
| >| > | > apparent lack of robustness engineered in these
| >early
| >| > systems.
| >| > | >
| >| > | >
| >| > | > CAL found Paris with just a compass and a chart.
| >| > | >
| >| > | > Yes. It was an Earth Inductor Compass*. I've
never
| >| > seen one of those
| >| > | > in any aircraft in which I've flown, let alone
| >piloted.
| >| > | >
| >| > | >
| >| > | > *
| >http://oldbeacon.com/beacon/earth_inductor_compass.htm
| >| > |
| >| > |
| >| > | Did anybody see NOVA on PBS last night. The earth
is
| >| > overdue for a pole
| >| > | reversal. According to the program, we are already
| >seeing
| >| > issues towards
| >| > | that. Interesting program.
| >| > |
| >| > | --
| >| > |
| >| > | Regards, Ross
| >| > | C-172F 180HP
| >| > | KSWI
| >| >
| >| >
| >| What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere,
is
| >the magnetic
| >| core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
| >years. Geologist
| >| know how to figure this out from core samples. They
said
| >the last one
| >| was over 700K years ago. The north magnetic pole (as we
| >know it) flips
| >| to the south pole.
| >|
| >| --
| >|
| >| Regards, Ross
| >| C-172F 180HP
| >| KSWI
| >
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com

[Neil Gould]

Recently, cjcampbell > posted:

> Larry Dighera wrote:
>>
http://www.newscientisttech.com/channel/tech/mg19225725.300-solar-storms-spell-trouble-for-gps.html
>> Solar storms spell trouble for GPS
>>
>> SOLAR flares can drown out GPS signals with potentially serious
>> consequences for airlines, emergency services, and anyone relying on
>> satellite navigation.
>
> The trouble with the Chicken Littles of the world is that they cry
> "Wolf!" far too often (how is that for mixing allegories?).
>
(rest snipped for brevity)

My sentiments, exactly.

Neil

[Larry Dighera]

On 26 Oct 2006 08:16:01 -0500, T o d d P a t t i s t
> wrote in
>:

>it's an impressive rate of change.

In geological terms, it's beyond the speed of light. :-)

[Ross Richardson[_2_]]

Bob Fry wrote:
>>>>>>"RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
>
> RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
> RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
> RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
> RR> samples.
>
> Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the earth's core.
> Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and iron
> particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get enough of
> those samples which were molten at different geologic periods and you
> can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.


That is what the program said. Yes, we do not bore to the center of the
earth. They even study old clay pots for clues. Still not sure how they
can infer anything from that.

--

Regards, Ross
C-172F 180HP
KSWI

[Jon Woellhaf]

Commenting on future reversal of the Earth's magnetic poles, Jim Weir wrote,
> Then we need to resurrect the Tate Compass Company, who installed the
> magnets in their compasses backwards so that North was South, East was
> West.
>
> This started the old saying, "He who has a Tate's is lost".

Good one! I thought I'd heard then all, but this one's new to me.

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"Jim Macklin" > wrote in message
...
> If the core is 1,000 miles in diameter, the forces required
> to actually tumble the semi-solid material, overcoming the
> friction with mantle and the gyroscopic forces would be so
> great that the Earth would not survive. In fact, I have a
> theory.
>
> The planet Venus orbits the Sun in the same direction as all
> the other planets, but it rotates backward. I think Venus
> was a wanderer and struck the Earth, knocking it into the 23
> incline, slowing Venus enough to be captured in the Sun
> gravity as an orbiting planet and also giving Venus its
> backward rotation. This collision also created the Moon.
>
>
>

Interesting theory but would either planet survive such an encounter as
anything more than a asteroid belt?

[Roger (K8RI)]

On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:42:01 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
> wrote:

>Fact is the more humans learn about geology, the more we
>learn we don't know.

Any body volunteering to go down there and have a look?


Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
(N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
www.rogerhalstead.com

[Jim Macklin]

Well as a child I saw Pat Boone, James Mason and a goose
Journey to the Center of the Earth and if you listen to
www.CoasttoCoastAM.com you'll learn that then Earth is
hollow with a big hole at the North Pole and that's where
flying saucers are based.



"Roger (K8RI)" > wrote in message
...
| On Thu, 26 Oct 2006 03:42:01 -0500, "Jim Macklin"
| > wrote:
|
| >Fact is the more humans learn about geology, the more we
| >learn we don't know.
|
| Any body volunteering to go down there and have a look?
|
|
| Roger Halstead (K8RI & ARRL life member)
| (N833R, S# CD-2 Worlds oldest Debonair)
| www.rogerhalstead.com

[cjcampbell]

Bob Fry wrote:
> >>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
> RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
> RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
> RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
> RR> samples.
>
> Not from core samples. We've come nowhere near the earth's core.
> Rather, from now-solid rock that was previously molten and iron
> particles free to align to the earth's magnetic field; get enough of
> those samples which were molten at different geologic periods and you
> can figure out the history of the earth's magnetic field.

A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
even your own skin.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:37:23 -0500, Jim Macklin wrote:

> Earth is hollow with a big hole at the North Pole and
> that's where flying saucers are based.

Hmm. Do they permit practice approaches?

- Andrew

[Matt Barrow]

"cjcampbell" > wrote in message
oups.com...
>
> Bob Fry wrote:
>> >>>>> "RR" == Ross Richardson > writes:
>> RR> What this program stated and I had read it elsewhere, is the
>> RR> magnetic core within the earth had flipped every 200K to 700K
>> RR> years. Geologist know how to figure this out from core
>> RR> samples.
>
> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
> even your own skin.

I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.

Guess what they found?

[Jim Macklin]

BTHOOM



"Andrew Gideon" > wrote in message
...
| On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 02:37:23 -0500, Jim Macklin wrote:
|
| > Earth is hollow with a big hole at the North Pole and
| > that's where flying saucers are based.
|
| Hmm. Do they permit practice approaches?
|
| - Andrew
|

[LWG]

How old you were?

>> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
>> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
>> even your own skin.
>
> I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.
>
> Guess what they found?
>
>
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"LWG" > wrote in message
...
> How old you were?

22. During my second or third flying lesson.


>
>>> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
>>> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
>>> even your own skin.
>>
>> I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.
>>
>> Guess what they found?

[LWG]

That was my answer to your question?

I did that with a pitot tube, took a core sample of my forehead. Guess what
they found?"

Answer: "How old you were?"


"Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
...
>
> "LWG" > wrote in message
> ...
>> How old you were?
>
> 22. During my second or third flying lesson.
>
>
>>
>>>> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
>>>> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
>>>> even your own skin.
>>>
>>> I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.
>>>
>>> Guess what they found?
>
>

[Matt Barrow]

"LWG" > wrote in message
...
> That was my answer to your question?
>
> I did that with a pitot tube, took a core sample of my forehead. Guess
> what they found?"
>
> Answer: "How old you were?"

Are you thinking of tree rings?

I thought you were asking how naive I was to bang my head like that. AFAIK,
you can't determine age from core samples.

As for your phrasing, I have several in-laws that are Irish and would phrase
the question just that way! (You won't be havin' a drink, will 'ya?)
>
>
> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
> ...
>>
>> "LWG" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>> How old you were?
>>
>> 22. During my second or third flying lesson.
>>
>>
>>>
>>>>> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
>>>>> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers, or
>>>>> even your own skin.
>>>>
>>>> I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.
>>>>
>>>> Guess what they found?
>>
>>
>
>

[LWG]

Something like that...

> Are you thinking of tree rings?

> I thought you were asking how naive I was to bang my head like that.
> AFAIK, you can't determine age from core samples.
>
> As for your phrasing, I have several in-laws that are Irish and would
> phrase the question just that way! (You won't be havin' a drink, will
> 'ya?)
>>
>>
>> "Matt Barrow" > wrote in message
>> ...
>>>
>>> "LWG" > wrote in message
>>> ...
>>>> How old you were?
>>>
>>> 22. During my second or third flying lesson.
>>>
>>>
>>>>
>>>>>> A core sample does not come from the earth's core. It is a sample
>>>>>> obtained by core drilling. You can get a core sample from glaciers,
>>>>>> or
>>>>>> even your own skin.
>>>>>
>>>>> I did that with a pitot tube once; took a core sample of my forehead.
>>>>>
>>>>> Guess what they found?
>>>
>>>
>>
>>
>
>

[Larry Dighera]

On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 14:05:05 GMT, Larry Dighera >
wrote in >:

>On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 06:44:32 -0700, Ron Wanttaja
> wrote in
>:
>
>>On Wed, 25 Oct 2006 11:12:07 GMT, Larry Dighera > wrote:
>>
>>> How was such a clash missed? Because GPS receivers only became common
>>> during a period of low solar activity. By 2011 solar flares will reach
>>> the peak of their cycle and receivers will likely fail.
>>
>>The sun is on an 11-year cycle. If 2011 is the date of the max (and we are
>>apparently in the minimum now), the LAST max was about 2000.
>
>Of course, natural phenomena can be somewhat erratic, but your astute
>analysis seems relatively consistent with International Space
>Environment Service observations/projections:
>http://www.sec.noaa.gov/SolarCycle/
>
>>Unless the author believes that GPS receivers only became common after
>>2000, the user community has already been through one solar max period.
>
>Apparently it was Alessandro Cerruti of Cornell University who raised
>the concern, not the New Scientist author. But, you are correct about
>having used GPS during the 2000 - 2003 peak period. I don't recall
>any anomalous GPS behavior back then, but I do recall a solar storm
>that caused my garage door opener to spontaneously open and close the
>door repeatedly one day.

SPACE WEATHER THREATENS GPS

As if we didn't have enough weather to worry about here on Earth,
scientists have confirmed what has long been anecdotally acknowledged
-- that solar flares play havoc with GPS signals. And with the FAA
moving steadily toward satellite-based technologies for the future of
airspace management, the warnings from last week's Space Weather
Enterprise Forum
(http://www.prnewswire.com/cgi-bin/stories.pl?ACCT=104&STORY=/www/story/04-04-2007/0004559768&EDATE)
take on increasing poignancy. "Society cannot become overly reliant on
technology without an awareness and understanding of the effects of
future space weather disruptions,'' Anthea Coster, Ph.D., MIT Haystack
Observatory, told attendees at the conference, which was held in
Washington, D.C. There is some good news, however. It appears WAAS
signals, the cornerstone of most of the new navigation protocols, are
somewhat less vulnerable to disruption.
http://www.avweb.com/eletter/archives/avflash/841-full.html#194884