OLC?

[Mike[_8_]]

Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
regularity?

Mike

[Jack[_1_]]

Mike wrote:
> Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
> regularity?

I'd say about the same time-frame as the old system, which is "not at all".

It would be nice if OLC would sort out the previous year's enhancements
before they adopt new ones.


Jack

[[email protected]]

Jack wrote:
> Mike wrote:
> > Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
> > regularity?
>
> I'd say about the same time-frame as the old system, which is "not at all".
>
> It would be nice if OLC would sort out the previous year's enhancements
> before they adopt new ones.
>
>
> Jack

If it's not broke why fix it? OLC did have a few bugs, but now it
seems to have hatched a new generation of bugs. As in viewing.

[Tony[_1_]]

yea and they still havent posted my flights after i sent them copies of
the barograph trace and landing witness signatures! :)

wrote:
> Jack wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
> > > Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
> > > regularity?
> >
> > I'd say about the same time-frame as the old system, which is "not at all".
> >
> > It would be nice if OLC would sort out the previous year's enhancements
> > before they adopt new ones.
> >
> >
> > Jack
>
> If it's not broke why fix it? OLC did have a few bugs, but now it
> seems to have hatched a new generation of bugs. As in viewing.

[Ray Lovinggood]

Why do we complain about something that is free?

I've only had one pitiful little flight since the new
and improved OLC has come to fruition and I posted
it as always: through the OLC web page, since I don't
have SeeMe or StraightPlop. It took me several tries
to get it to accept the flight. Could be that I was
uploading on Sunday for a Saturday flight and I had
not changed the drop down calendar to Saturday? I
don't know what I did to make it go, but it finally
'took.'

I did find it MUCH easier to load than previously.
I think all I had to give was my name, birthdate,
type of glider, and upload the file. I didn't have
to pick the starting time, the ending time, the region
of flight, and maybe something else.

I think it looks promising as far as uploading the
flight directly through their OLC web page.

But I do think the white background on the map without
any turnpoints shown is a loss from what we used to
have. Maybe they are working on that? Wouldn't it
be fun if they linked the gps logs to Google Earth?
No, that wouldn't work too well for dial up modems.
Well, I bet they are cooking up something for the
background 'picture.'

For a free service, I still think it's pretty darned
cool!

Ray Lovinggood
Carrboro, North Carolina, USA
Looking forward to yet another pitiful little flight
this weekend!
(Spring can't get here fast enough!)

[Jack]

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> Why do we complain about something that is free?

It's not free. It's just that the contestants don't pay. Somebody pays
-- and they are not getting their money's worth, when contestants are
frustrated and new people avoid joining as a result of the continuing
difficulties.

Somebody is doing a lot of work on it, no doubt, but their guiding
principles could use a dose of reality.


Jack

[Stewart Kissel]

At 23:18 25 October 2006, Jack wrote:
>Ray Lovinggood wrote:
>> Why do we complain about something that is free?

The response below in true glider-pilot logic...

>It's not free. It's just that the contestants don't
>pay.


Hmm, have to think about that one. :)

[[email protected]]

Ray Lovinggood wrote:
> Why do we complain about something that is free?

Heh. Is this your first visit to the internets?

[Doug Haluza]

wrote:
> Jack wrote:
> > Mike wrote:
> > > Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
> > > regularity?
> >
> > I'd say about the same time-frame as the old system, which is "not at all".
> >
> > It would be nice if OLC would sort out the previous year's enhancements
> > before they adopt new ones.
> >
> >
> > Jack
>
> If it's not broke why fix it? OLC did have a few bugs, but now it
> seems to have hatched a new generation of bugs. As in viewing.

I was at the OLC symposium in Gersfeld/Roehn Germany yesterday, and had
a chance to talk to some of the developers on the OLC team. The old OLC
sysyem, though functional, was a technological dead end. It was one
large C-language program, written by one person, without documentation.
So it was not possible to make changes to one part of the program,
without affecting other parts. It was also not possible to support this
properly with a distributed team of volunteers.

The OLC team was faced with a decision at the beginning of the OLC year
earlier this month, whether to launch the OLC 2.0 this year, or wait
until next year. They decided that they did not want to spend any more
effort on the old platform, and instead decided to move to the new
platform now, even with it's shortcomings.

The new program has a modular architecture, so it is possible to have
different people work on different parts. Obviously some parts are not
working properly, and others are completely missing. Right now, the
main focus is on getting flight claims in and scored. The summary
statistics modules will be brought on line later in the year. Then
there are many new and exciting additions planned for the future. So
please pardon the dust and noise during construction, I think you will
like the results.

There have been problems with some flights getting zero score. Note
that the score is always zero right after the upload, because the
scoring is queued up and done offline. But if the score does not appear
after an hour or so, there is a problem. I have been able to get some
flights to score by re-starting the scoring process, now that limited
admin functions are available. We should be able to get all these
scoring errors corrected, so don't worry if you have scoring problems
for now, just keep claiming your flights.

The new claiming process is much easier than before. If you create a
username under registration, and login, your pilot name and birthdate
is already entered on the flight claim. Then all you need to do is
upload the IGC file, or an OLC claim file prepared offline with flight
analysis software, enter your aircraft info, and you are done. The
takeoff site is automaitcally selected, and your region is selected
from that.

StrePla also announced at the OLC Symposium yesterday that they have
released the 2007 patch for online claiming, so you can also do
automatic claims as before. SeeYou is still working on their patch, and
should release it soon as well.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

[hans]

Doug Haluza schrieb:
> wrote:
>> Jack wrote:
>>> Mike wrote:
>>>> Any word on when the new system will be working properly and with some
>>>> regularity?
>>> I'd say about the same time-frame as the old system, which is "not at all".
>>>
>>> It would be nice if OLC would sort out the previous year's enhancements
>>> before they adopt new ones.
>>>
>>>
>>> Jack
>> If it's not broke why fix it? OLC did have a few bugs, but now it
>> seems to have hatched a new generation of bugs. As in viewing.
>
> I was at the OLC symposium in Gersfeld/Roehn Germany yesterday, and had
> a chance to talk to some of the developers on the OLC team. The old OLC
> sysyem, though functional, was a technological dead end. It was one
> large C-language program, written by one person, without documentation.
> So it was not possible to make changes to one part of the program,
> without affecting other parts. It was also not possible to support this
> properly with a distributed team of volunteers.

I can assure you that some of the information you got there was not
correct.

The old software was a C-code written by myself and JK, plus a
mySql-database, which stored all the information, plus lots of php-code
written by CH, AR for all the displays and scorings and a third person
for the BHC.

Impossible to maintain and dead end? Yes, if you remove the two lead
persons within 6 month form the project.

Have a look at sis-at.streckenflug.at to see the dead end of this
technology ;-)
The team for sis-at are CH, one new person, and myself and JK helping us
out with the maps and baros.

And we do distributed development, like in the old days of the OLC, now
only between Vienna and Munich, in the days of the OLC it was Munich,
Vienna, Constance, and Hamburg.

>
> Doug Haluza
> SSA-OLC Admin
>

[Jack]

hans wrote:

[....]

> Have a look at sis-at.streckenflug.at to see the dead end of this
> technology ;-)
> The team for sis-at are CH, one new person, and myself and JK helping us
> out with the maps and baros.
>
> And we do distributed development, like in the old days of the OLC, now
> only between Vienna and Munich, in the days of the OLC it was Munich,
> Vienna, Constance, and Hamburg.


Hans,

I look forward to an English version for the undereducated Ausländer
(that would be me).


Jack

[hans]

Jack schrieb:
> hans wrote:
>
> [....]
>
>> Have a look at sis-at.streckenflug.at to see the dead end of this
>> technology ;-)
>> The team for sis-at are CH, one new person, and myself and JK helping
>> us out with the maps and baros.
>>
>> And we do distributed development, like in the old days of the OLC,
>> now only between Vienna and Munich, in the days of the OLC it was
>> Munich, Vienna, Constance, and Hamburg.
>
>
> Hans,
>
> I look forward to an English version for the undereducated Ausländer
> (that would be me).
>
>
> Jack


At the moment there is no intension by the Austrian Aeroclub to extend
the competition to non members of the Austrian Aeroclub. That is why the
multi language capability is not turned on.

I hope that Martin, my successor at the OLC, will solve many of the
current issues with OLC2 in the near future. He is working hard to
solve the issues, but one person can not do all the work.

[Doug Haluza]

hans wrote:
> Doug Haluza schrieb:
> > I was at the OLC symposium in Gersfeld/Roehn Germany yesterday, and had
> > a chance to talk to some of the developers on the OLC team. The old OLC
> > sysyem, though functional, was a technological dead end. It was one
> > large C-language program, written by one person, without documentation.
> > So it was not possible to make changes to one part of the program,
> > without affecting other parts. It was also not possible to support this
> > properly with a distributed team of volunteers.
>
> I can assure you that some of the information you got there was not
> correct.

Well, I was speaking in English to native German speakers, so something
may have been lost in translation, but I think it was substantially
correct. Obviously there is some history here that I am not aware of,
though.

> The old software was a C-code written by myself and JK, plus a
> mySql-database, which stored all the information, plus lots of php-code
> written by CH, AR for all the displays and scorings and a third person
> for the BHC.
>
> Impossible to maintain and dead end? Yes, if you remove the two lead
> persons within 6 month form the project.

I did not say it was impossible to maintain--in fact I said it was
functional. I did say it was not possible to support properly with a
distributed team. Many things can be done, but that does not mean they
should be done. If you are working with a distributed team, especially
an all-volunteer team, a modular architecture allows you to parse out
tasks, and decouple the separate activities.

> Have a look at sis-at.streckenflug.at to see the dead end of this
> technology ;-)
> The team for sis-at are CH, one new person, and myself and JK helping us
> out with the maps and baros.
>
> And we do distributed development, like in the old days of the OLC, now
> only between Vienna and Munich, in the days of the OLC it was Munich,
> Vienna, Constance, and Hamburg.

It is possible to do distributed development on a monolithic block of
code, but it is not possible to work both simultaneously and
independently as you can with a modular architecture. Obviously the
modular architecture of OLC 2.0 will help the OLC developers to explore
new possibilities, once the basic functions are stable.

Doug Haluza
SSA-OLC Admin

[hans]

Doug Haluza schrieb:

>
> It is possible to do distributed development on a monolithic block of
> code, but it is not possible to work both simultaneously and
> independently as you can with a modular architecture. Obviously the
> modular architecture of OLC 2.0 will help the OLC developers to explore
> new possibilities, once the basic functions are stable.
>

It was not a monolithic block of software, because this would not have
allowed the distributed concurrent development adopted by the old team.

I hope for the idea of the onlinecontest that the technology mix
selected now is the right one for the new team working now on it.

[Ian Cant]

The old version was functional with minor inconveniences.
Eventually I have no doubt that the new version will
also be fully functional. But could we not have retained
the old version for another year until the new version
was really ready for general use ? New technology
is nice [until it in turn becomes old technology] but
functionality is really what it's all about.

And thankyou to all the volunteers without whom we
would have neither any technology nor functionality.

Ian

[Mike[_8_]]

Doug,

Any idea when the basics will be stable?

thanks,

Mike


Doug Haluza wrote:
> hans wrote:
> > Doug Haluza schrieb:
> > > I was at the OLC symposium in Gersfeld/Roehn Germany yesterday, and had
> > > a chance to talk to some of the developers on the OLC team. The old OLC
> > > sysyem, though functional, was a technological dead end. It was one
> > > large C-language program, written by one person, without documentation.
> > > So it was not possible to make changes to one part of the program,
> > > without affecting other parts. It was also not possible to support this
> > > properly with a distributed team of volunteers.
> >
> > I can assure you that some of the information you got there was not
> > correct.
>
> Well, I was speaking in English to native German speakers, so something
> may have been lost in translation, but I think it was substantially
> correct. Obviously there is some history here that I am not aware of,
> though.
>
> > The old software was a C-code written by myself and JK, plus a
> > mySql-database, which stored all the information, plus lots of php-code
> > written by CH, AR for all the displays and scorings and a third person
> > for the BHC.
> >
> > Impossible to maintain and dead end? Yes, if you remove the two lead
> > persons within 6 month form the project.
>
> I did not say it was impossible to maintain--in fact I said it was
> functional. I did say it was not possible to support properly with a
> distributed team. Many things can be done, but that does not mean they
> should be done. If you are working with a distributed team, especially
> an all-volunteer team, a modular architecture allows you to parse out
> tasks, and decouple the separate activities.
>
> > Have a look at sis-at.streckenflug.at to see the dead end of this
> > technology ;-)
> > The team for sis-at are CH, one new person, and myself and JK helping us
> > out with the maps and baros.
> >
> > And we do distributed development, like in the old days of the OLC, now
> > only between Vienna and Munich, in the days of the OLC it was Munich,
> > Vienna, Constance, and Hamburg.
>
> It is possible to do distributed development on a monolithic block of
> code, but it is not possible to work both simultaneously and
> independently as you can with a modular architecture. Obviously the
> modular architecture of OLC 2.0 will help the OLC developers to explore
> new possibilities, once the basic functions are stable.
>
> Doug Haluza
> SSA-OLC Admin

[Ramy]

You would think by now we would see some improvements...
Still default to tomorrow and the calendar doesn't work...

Ramy

Ian Cant wrote:
> The old version was functional with minor inconveniences.
> Eventually I have no doubt that the new version will
> also be fully functional. But could we not have retained
> the old version for another year until the new version
> was really ready for general use ? New technology
> is nice [until it in turn becomes old technology] but
> functionality is really what it's all about.
>
> And thankyou to all the volunteers without whom we
> would have neither any technology nor functionality.
>
> Ian

[Bob Gibbons]

In order to make the calendar work I have to use the two double arrow
icons at the upper right and left edges of the calendar. First use the
upper double left arrow to move back 1 year, then use the upper right
double arrow to move forward 1 year. The date buttons then appear to
work.

As I have opinioned before, it's a shame these sorts of bugs were not
worked out in a beta test phase.

Bob

On 2 Nov 2006 20:10:28 -0800, "Ramy" > wrote:

>You would think by now we would see some improvements...
>Still default to tomorrow and the calendar doesn't work...
>
>Ramy
>
>Ian Cant wrote:
>> The old version was functional with minor inconveniences.
>> Eventually I have no doubt that the new version will
>> also be fully functional. But could we not have retained
>> the old version for another year until the new version
>> was really ready for general use ? New technology
>> is nice [until it in turn becomes old technology] but
>> functionality is really what it's all about.
>>
>> And thankyou to all the volunteers without whom we
>> would have neither any technology nor functionality.
>>
>> Ian
>

[hans]

At least here in good old Europe the calender works.

Could it be that the problem arises from the fact that the calender
always assumes that you are in Europe, while you are 9 hours behind.
Is the date correct when you check in the morning and not in the evening?

Some of the problems will not be visible to a user or tester in Europe.






Bob Gibbons schrieb:
> In order to make the calendar work I have to use the two double arrow
> icons at the upper right and left edges of the calendar. First use the
> upper double left arrow to move back 1 year, then use the upper right
> double arrow to move forward 1 year. The date buttons then appear to
> work.
>
> As I have opinioned before, it's a shame these sorts of bugs were not
> worked out in a beta test phase.
>
> Bob
>
> On 2 Nov 2006 20:10:28 -0800, "Ramy" > wrote:
>
>> You would think by now we would see some improvements...
>> Still default to tomorrow and the calendar doesn't work...
>>

[5Z]

On Nov 4, 2:51 pm, hans > wrote:
> At least here in good old Europe the calender works.
>
> Could it be that the problem arises from the fact that the calender
> always assumes that you are in Europe, while you are 9 hours behind.
> Is the date correct when you check in the morning and not in the evening?
>
> Some of the problems will not be visible to a user or tester in Europe.

Yes, I'm sure that may be part of it. Perhaps a user profile set with
cookies and coupled to the login could address some of these issues?
Or some command line variables to help customize the view?

The OLC link in the USA, for example goes through the SSA website. If
they could add some options there so that a click on "scoring" would
automatically select United States, and a generic timezone for the US,
that may help.

One feature I find missing is the aboulity to display the one month
list of flights - especially nice if there a not yet many flights for
"today". Actually, an option to display the last week's worth of
flights would be very nice, as that would provide a reasonable snapshot
of recent activity.

-Tom

[Frank Whiteley]

The calendar, country problem seems to be Internet Explorer specific to
me. Using IE, I notice I have calendar problems if I enter OLC via the
SSA site. More specifically, if I change to the day prior, I get
worldwide scoring. If I then filter for USA flights, I get the current
date, worldwide scoring.

If I use this link
http://www3.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/olcscore.html the
calendar works properly.

It kind of looks like PHP sessionID's (or possibly cookies) are getting
crossed in the framed SSA OLC page and browser caching in Internet
Explorer. Don't have time to debug further at the moment and there are
other exceptions noted.

Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).

Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?

Frank Whiteley

5Z wrote:
> On Nov 4, 2:51 pm, hans > wrote:
> > At least here in good old Europe the calender works.
> >
> > Could it be that the problem arises from the fact that the calender
> > always assumes that you are in Europe, while you are 9 hours behind.
> > Is the date correct when you check in the morning and not in the evening?
> >
> > Some of the problems will not be visible to a user or tester in Europe.
>
> Yes, I'm sure that may be part of it. Perhaps a user profile set with
> cookies and coupled to the login could address some of these issues?
> Or some command line variables to help customize the view?
>
> The OLC link in the USA, for example goes through the SSA website. If
> they could add some options there so that a click on "scoring" would
> automatically select United States, and a generic timezone for the US,
> that may help.
>
> One feature I find missing is the aboulity to display the one month
> list of flights - especially nice if there a not yet many flights for
> "today". Actually, an option to display the last week's worth of
> flights would be very nice, as that would provide a reasonable snapshot
> of recent activity.
>
> -Tom

[Greg Arnold]

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> The calendar, country problem seems to be Internet Explorer specific to
> me. Using IE, I notice I have calendar problems if I enter OLC via the
> SSA site. More specifically, if I change to the day prior, I get
> worldwide scoring. If I then filter for USA flights, I get the current
> date, worldwide scoring.
>
> If I use this link
> http://www3.onlinecontest.org/olc-2.0/gliding/olcscore.html the
> calendar works properly.
>
> It kind of looks like PHP sessionID's (or possibly cookies) are getting
> crossed in the framed SSA OLC page and browser caching in Internet
> Explorer. Don't have time to debug further at the moment and there are
> other exceptions noted.
>
> Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
> duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).
>
> Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?

Yes.

>
> Frank Whiteley

[5Z]

On Nov 5, 12:27 pm, "Frank Whiteley" > wrote:
> Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
> duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).
>
> Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?

I've only been using FF on Winderz and generally it's OK, though
sometimes the calendar popup does get a bit cranky.

Just now was looking at USA on the 4th. Clicked the calendar and
selected the 5th and it switched to displaying the workd. Perhaps this
is because there are no records yet for today in the US...

So again, if there was an option to display the previous X days, and I
would probably choose 7, then there should always be some flights made
in the last week. Currently, one has to manually click through the
days on the calendar making it difficult to just browse recent history.

-Tom

[ZL]

5Z wrote:
>
> On Nov 5, 12:27 pm, "Frank Whiteley" > wrote:
>
>>Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
>>duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).
>>
>>Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?
>
>
> I've only been using FF on Winderz and generally it's OK, though
> sometimes the calendar popup does get a bit cranky.
>
> Just now was looking at USA on the 4th. Clicked the calendar and
> selected the 5th and it switched to displaying the workd. Perhaps this
> is because there are no records yet for today in the US...
>
> So again, if there was an option to display the previous X days, and I
> would probably choose 7, then there should always be some flights made
> in the last week. Currently, one has to manually click through the
> days on the calendar making it difficult to just browse recent history.
>
> -Tom
>
Right now, at 2330 Z on 11-5, the calendar does not work. The date shows
11-6. And you cannot change it. IE and Firefox. I have seen this since
OLC 2. The calendar starts working again only after the first flight for
11-6 is entered. Probably doesn't matter much in Europe, but this is
prime time in the US.

-Dave

[Frank Whiteley]

Just tried something different in IE6 on Windows and FireFox on Linux
via the SSA link.

After selecting Scoring>>Daily Score, I notice that when I start at the
default 11/6/06 calendar and <left-click> on any prior November dates,
I get a visual cue of the mouse click, but no audio cue. However, if I
change to October and <left-click> a date, I get both cues and the date
data resolves. Then if I move back to the November calendar, I get
both cues and the date data resolves.

There seems to be an issue perhaps on the mouseover and maybe more
likely the onclick handling with the inital load of the _default_
javascript calendar, rather than cookies or sessionID's as this is
repeatable in different browsers consistently. The frame code links to
multiple calendar scripts for setup and localization.

Frank Whiteley

ZL wrote:
> 5Z wrote:
> >
> > On Nov 5, 12:27 pm, "Frank Whiteley" > wrote:
> >
> >>Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
> >>duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).
> >>
> >>Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?
> >
> >
> > I've only been using FF on Winderz and generally it's OK, though
> > sometimes the calendar popup does get a bit cranky.
> >
> > Just now was looking at USA on the 4th. Clicked the calendar and
> > selected the 5th and it switched to displaying the workd. Perhaps this
> > is because there are no records yet for today in the US...
> >
> > So again, if there was an option to display the previous X days, and I
> > would probably choose 7, then there should always be some flights made
> > in the last week. Currently, one has to manually click through the
> > days on the calendar making it difficult to just browse recent history.
> >
> > -Tom
> >
> Right now, at 2330 Z on 11-5, the calendar does not work. The date shows
> 11-6. And you cannot change it. IE and Firefox. I have seen this since
> OLC 2. The calendar starts working again only after the first flight for
> 11-6 is entered. Probably doesn't matter much in Europe, but this is
> prime time in the US.
>
> -Dave

[Frank Whiteley]

Looks like someone tried this week, but now back to where it was a week
ago for the past couple of days, in alpha.

Frank Whiteley wrote:
> Just tried something different in IE6 on Windows and FireFox on Linux
> via the SSA link.
>
> After selecting Scoring>>Daily Score, I notice that when I start at the
> default 11/6/06 calendar and <left-click> on any prior November dates,
> I get a visual cue of the mouse click, but no audio cue. However, if I
> change to October and <left-click> a date, I get both cues and the date
> data resolves. Then if I move back to the November calendar, I get
> both cues and the date data resolves.
>
> There seems to be an issue perhaps on the mouseover and maybe more
> likely the onclick handling with the inital load of the _default_
> javascript calendar, rather than cookies or sessionID's as this is
> repeatable in different browsers consistently. The frame code links to
> multiple calendar scripts for setup and localization.
>
> Frank Whiteley
>
> ZL wrote:
> > 5Z wrote:
> > >
> > > On Nov 5, 12:27 pm, "Frank Whiteley" > wrote:
> > >
> > >>Firefox appears to handle it okay in the framed SSA page as I can't
> > >>duplicate the problem while using Firefox (on a Linux box).
> > >>
> > >>Anyone having problems in Firefox on a Windoze box?
> > >
> > >
> > > I've only been using FF on Winderz and generally it's OK, though
> > > sometimes the calendar popup does get a bit cranky.
> > >
> > > Just now was looking at USA on the 4th. Clicked the calendar and
> > > selected the 5th and it switched to displaying the workd. Perhaps this
> > > is because there are no records yet for today in the US...
> > >
> > > So again, if there was an option to display the previous X days, and I
> > > would probably choose 7, then there should always be some flights made
> > > in the last week. Currently, one has to manually click through the
> > > days on the calendar making it difficult to just browse recent history.
> > >
> > > -Tom
> > >
> > Right now, at 2330 Z on 11-5, the calendar does not work. The date shows
> > 11-6. And you cannot change it. IE and Firefox. I have seen this since
> > OLC 2. The calendar starts working again only after the first flight for
> > 11-6 is entered. Probably doesn't matter much in Europe, but this is
> > prime time in the US.
> >
> > -Dave