Black Boxes for GA Aircraft...Good or Bad?

[Greengears]

Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?


'BLACK BOXES' SOON AVAILABLE FOR CIRRUS AIRPLANES
A Massachusetts manufacturer, which was developing an engine trend
monitoring device for an air taxi operator now using Cirrus Design
aircraft, has expanded the product to a $5,000 flight data recorder or
"black box" for the Cirrus SR20 and SR22 models. The device, made by
Alakai Technologies of Hopkinton, Massachusetts, can help owners by
providing easily downloadable engine performance data, but will also
aid insurance company investigations of fault in aircraft accidents. It
could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
estimated. The 3.5-pound device should receive a supplemental type
certificate from the FAA as early as December. The air taxi operator
will become the launch customer for the always-on Digital Flight Data
System. It can record information such as engine performance, rate of
climb or descent, true and indicated airspeed, heading, altitude,
engine trends, miles per gallon, and GPS navigation waypoints. There
have been initial discussions between Alakai and Cirrus Design about
the device. It will be manufactured for Alakai by another Massachusetts
company, Accent Technologies, located in North Andover.

[Thomas Borchert]

Greengears,

> Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>

Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!

--
Thomas Borchert (EDDH)

[Robert M. Gary]

Thomas Borchert wrote:
> Greengears,
>
> > Do you think that all flight schools should
> > have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
> >
>
> Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
> with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
> with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
> gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
> chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!

But most of us already do have black boxes. My GPS tracks my
course/speed/altitude/etc for about a year back. My EDM tracks all my
engine trends, all EGTs, fuel flows, CHTs, event OAT (in case I was in
an ice accident).
It wouldn't be hard for the NTSB to get as much info from my plane as
the 80's era black boxes provided.

-Robert

[Ron Lee]

I have no need for one. $5000 for something that adds nothing to
safety and will not prevent the main cause of plane crashes...pilot
error.

Ron Lee

[RK Henry]

On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears" >
wrote:

>Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
>the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
>have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>
>
>... It
>could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
>estimated. ...

Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
cost to insure one of those things otherwise?

Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
free?

RK Henry

[Jose[_1_]]

> Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
> free?

"Save up to $1000, or more!"

Jose
--
"Never trust anything that can think for itself, if you can't see where
it keeps its brain." (chapter 10 of book 3 - Harry Potter).
for Email, make the obvious change in the address.

[Andrew Gideon]

On Fri, 27 Oct 2006 19:28:41 +0000, RK Henry wrote:

> Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance?

Why? What use has the insurance company for this information, and how
does it reduce your risk enough to make that type of difference?

Either the companies want some data and are willing to pay for it, or this
is a tool to disallow coverage (or whatever the phrase is) given
information the insurance company would otherwise lack.

I'd not begrudge the companies accident data (esp. if they share with the
likes of ASF), but I'd not even consider installing such a thing w/o
written agreement that nothing in that box can be used to render insurance
void (or whatever the phrase is).

- Andrew

[Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe]

"Greengears" > wrote in message
ups.com...
> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>


Consider the fact that without one, if you have an accident, you are pretty
much at the mercy of an "expert" who, potentially, couldn't find his butt
with both hands and a flashlight (at least that was the "accident
reconstructionist" from the state police that I had the misfortune of
dealing with)...

I wish cars had these.

--
Geoff
The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.

[Matt Whiting]

Robert M. Gary wrote:

> Thomas Borchert wrote:
>
>>Greengears,
>>
>>
>>>Do you think that all flight schools should
>>>have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>>>
>>
>>Very bad, to answer your title. One more certified thing to pay for,
>>with no or little increase in safety (how many GA accidents are there
>>with unknown cause that have a chance of being clearer with such a
>>gadget?). The only purpose of such a device is to give the media a
>>chance to report more in the Lidle case. Sad!
>
>
> But most of us already do have black boxes. My GPS tracks my
> course/speed/altitude/etc for about a year back. My EDM tracks all my
> engine trends, all EGTs, fuel flows, CHTs, event OAT (in case I was in
> an ice accident).
> It wouldn't be hard for the NTSB to get as much info from my plane as
> the 80's era black boxes provided.

That assumes it survives the wreck.

Matt

[J. Severyn]

"Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
news:yvidnbruEJwv59_YnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> "Greengears" > wrote in message
> ups.com...
>> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
>> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
>> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>>
>
>
> Consider the fact that without one, if you have an accident, you are
> pretty much at the mercy of an "expert" who, potentially, couldn't find
> his butt with both hands and a flashlight (at least that was the "accident
> reconstructionist" from the state police that I had the misfortune of
> dealing with)...
>
> I wish cars had these.
>
> --
> Geoff
> The Sea Hawk at Wow Way d0t Com
> remove spaces and make the obvious substitutions to reply by mail
> When immigration is outlawed, only outlaws will immigrate.
>

Most cars built today do have a black box....the engine control unit.
Records speed, temp, engine RPM, MAP, transmission gear, and may include
airbag state, brake application and other sensors depending on make and
model. Post crash, the data can be used for or against you.
Regards,
John Severyn
@KLVK

[J. Severyn]

"RK Henry" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears" >
> wrote:
>
>>Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
>>the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
>>have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>>
>>
>>... It
>>could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
>>estimated. ...
>
> Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
> cost to insure one of those things otherwise?
>

$15K/year or thereabouts.

> Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
> free?

You could ask your agent...but don't get your hopes up.:<)

>
> RK Henry

John Severyn
@KLVK

[Mxsmanic]

Greengears writes:

> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?

Anything that helps determine the cause of accidents is essentially a
good thing. However, because of the cost of the black boxes and the
relatively limited budgets of GA aviators, I don't think that they
should be mandatory. Flight schools might more easily be able to
assume the cost, but I'm not sure I see the value of installing them
specifically at flight schools. The real mystery accidents are not
likely to involve flight schools.

> 'BLACK BOXES' SOON AVAILABLE FOR CIRRUS AIRPLANES

Somehow it doesn't surprise me that Cirrus would be mentioned in
connection with this.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Mxsmanic]

Matt Whiting writes:

> That assumes it survives the wreck.

Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
device will survive intact.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.

[Bob Noel]

In article om>,
"Greengears" > wrote:

> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?

No.

--
Bob Noel
Looking for a sig the
lawyers will hate

[Kingfish]

Greengears wrote:
> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>

Flight schools? I don't see the benefit. The article did say something
about Pt135 operations flying Cirruses having them installed - if that
gets them a break in insurance then I guess there's no harm

[Kev]

J. Severyn wrote:
> "Capt. Geoffrey Thorpe" <The Sea Hawk at wow way d0t com> wrote in message
> news:yvidnbruEJwv59_YnZ2dnUVZ_rGdnZ2d@wideopenwest .com...
> > I wish cars had these.
>
> Most cars built today do have a black box....the engine control unit.
> Records speed, temp, engine RPM, MAP, transmission gear, and may include
> airbag state, brake application and other sensors depending on make and
> model. Post crash, the data can be used for or against you.

Exactly. Some states are passing laws preventing insurance companies
from using your car's data against you. There have already been some
convictions where the defendant claimed to not have been speeding
before an accident, but the engine and transmission computers' memory
showed otherwise.

There was even a priest in a nighttime hit-and-run case who claimed not
to have seen anybody, but his car module showed that he hit his brakes
at the time the person was killed. He was convicted.

Kev

[Andrew Sarangan[_1_]]

Greengears wrote:
> Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
> the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
> have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>
>

Since insurance companies are in the business of finding who is at
fault, I suppose it could have some benefit to them if you had such a
box, and it would be fair to expect to get a discount in your premiums.

However, you asked whether flight schools _should_ have these boxes.
The only way that would be true is if it found its way into the FARs. I
hope that would never become the case because the FAA is in the
business of improving aviation safety, and this box does nothing to
improve safety.

[Blanche]

$5K for the box.

Any estimates on cost for installation?

Any estimates on cost & agony for FSDO approval for installation?

[jmk]

Mxsmanic wrote:
> > That assumes it survives the wreck.
>
> Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
> accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
> There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
> device will survive intact.

We designed something similar a few years back (still being evaluated
by the SE FSDO, I believe) although our goal was long-term recording of
stress on the airframe. We designed it to include optional aircraft
data, but your average 30 year old C-172 or Warrior just doesn't have
much in the way of electrical data to record. None of the usual stuff
(control position) is there.

You could instrument everything of course, the the price would be
prohibitive (i.e. no one would pay for it).

While we were most interested in things like pulling so many G's that
the wings came off, the FAA rejected our first design because we could
potentially lose the last 100 ms. or so of data (i.e. the actual crash,
after the wings pulled off). We hadn't considered that important (it's
sort of "after the fact"), but they pointed out that in a lot of
mountain crashes the first sign of a problem is hitting the mountain.
We implemented a ferro-ram buffer (in front of the main storage) - both
non-volatile. Even if the pins got pulled off the IC, the die could
still be read (with difficulty).

[Gig 601XL Builder]

"RK Henry" > wrote in message
...
> On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears" >
> wrote:
>
>>Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
>>the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
>>have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>>
>>
>>... It
>>could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
>>estimated. ...
>
> Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
> cost to insure one of those things otherwise?
>
> Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
> free?
>
> RK Henry

If the insurance company thinks there enough value there for them to give
you a $1k/year discount for installing a $5k box it would seem they would be
better off just paying for the box and keeping their $1k per year. Then they
start really making money after 5 years.

[RK Henry]

On Mon, 30 Oct 2006 10:51:24 -0600, "Gig 601XL Builder"
<wrDOTgiaconaATcox.net> wrote:

>
>"RK Henry" > wrote in message
...
>> On 27 Oct 2006 08:08:48 -0700, "Greengears" >
>> wrote:
>>
>>>Got this article in an AOPA email about black boxes being installed in
>>>the Cirrus SR20 and SR22. Do you think that all flight schools should
>>>have these type of black boxes installed in their aircrafts?
>>>
>>>
>>>... It
>>>could save up to $1,000 a year in owner insurance, a company official
>>>estimated. ...
>>
>> Savings of up to $1,000/yr in insurance? Holy cow! How much does it
>> cost to insure one of those things otherwise?
>>
>> Does that mean that if I put one on my Warrior that I could insure for
>> free?
>>
>> RK Henry
>
>If the insurance company thinks there enough value there for them to give
>you a $1k/year discount for installing a $5k box it would seem they would be
>better off just paying for the box and keeping their $1k per year. Then they
>start really making money after 5 years.

My main point was that I don't pay as much as $1,000/yr now. A $1,000
discount would have them paying me. Could that $5k box really be that
valuable?

RK Henry

[Kyle Boatright]

"jmk" > wrote in message
ups.com...
>
> Mxsmanic wrote:
>> > That assumes it survives the wreck.
>>
>> Small, solid-state devices can survive some extraordinarily high
>> accelerations, even if they aren't necessarily built to do so.
>> There's certainly a good chance that something like a flash memory
>> device will survive intact.
>
> We designed something similar a few years back (still being evaluated
> by the SE FSDO, I believe) although our goal was long-term recording of
> stress on the airframe. We designed it to include optional aircraft
> data, but your average 30 year old C-172 or Warrior just doesn't have
> much in the way of electrical data to record. None of the usual stuff
> (control position) is there.
>
> You could instrument everything of course, the the price would be
> prohibitive (i.e. no one would pay for it).
>
> While we were most interested in things like pulling so many G's that
> the wings came off, the FAA rejected our first design because we could
> potentially lose the last 100 ms. or so of data (i.e. the actual crash,
> after the wings pulled off). We hadn't considered that important (it's
> sort of "after the fact"), but they pointed out that in a lot of
> mountain crashes the first sign of a problem is hitting the mountain.
> We implemented a ferro-ram buffer (in front of the main storage) - both
> non-volatile. Even if the pins got pulled off the IC, the die could
> still be read (with difficulty).

Sounds like the FAA is missing the point. If they lose the last 100 ms
before the airplane hits the mountain, big deal. Don't the previous 5 (or
30) minutes tell the story.. Either 1) The airplane was cruising along at 8k
ft and hit a 10k mountain. Or: 2) The airplane stalled and spun down into
the ground. Or: 3) Whatever.

I just don't see how that last 1/10 second is gonna tell anyone much...

KB

[Mxsmanic]

Kyle Boatright writes:

> I just don't see how that last 1/10 second is gonna tell anyone much...

Ask NASA.

--
Transpose mxsmanic and gmail to reach me by e-mail.