New vs. Used

[[email protected]]

I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
for improvements of prices on used market.

Jacek
Pasco, WA

And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......

[[email protected]]

>From what I read, Airbus is having all kinds of problems, with CEOs
coming and going, delays in production, shareholders trying to dump
their stock, etc... If the A380 is cancelled because of air carriers
bailing out, and there is a glut of raw materials, does it mean that
the price of gliders will drop accordingly ? Here's to hope...

Cheers, Charles

[[email protected]]

wrote:
> >From what I read, Airbus is having all kinds of problems, with CEOs
> coming and going, delays in production, shareholders trying to dump
> their stock, etc... If the A380 is cancelled because of air carriers
> bailing out, and there is a glut of raw materials, does it mean that
> the price of gliders will drop accordingly ? Here's to hope...
>
> Cheers, Charles

Here is a link with explanation about "older" gliders and flying
"fast". I really like it. It put things in a right perspective. Take a
good look at the Pegasus right in the graph....
http://faculty.chicagogsb.edu/john.cochrane/research/Papers/Flyingfaster.doc

Jacek

[GK[_1_]]

[1] of the cost of a
new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
Airbus and Boeing.

- In one of the previous DG newsletters their explanantion of higher
costs was....inability to produce a quality glider elsewere but
Germany.
They raise prices because they want to make more $$. That's it. After
all, they dont even have a competition outside of Germany.

[Mike Schumann]

Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.

Mike Schumann

"GK" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> [1] of the cost of a
> new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
> sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
> Airbus and Boeing.
>
> - In one of the previous DG newsletters their explanantion of higher
> costs was....inability to produce a quality glider elsewere but
> Germany.
> They raise prices because they want to make more $$. That's it. After
> all, they dont even have a competition outside of Germany.
>

[GK[_1_]]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.
>
> Mike Schumann

- Or companies like Honda.

[Eric Greenwell]

GK wrote:
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>
> - Or companies like Honda.

Which builds their cars in the USA...

So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Nyal Williams]

Not necessarily; we will have to be persuaded to buy
them.

At 22:36 01 November 2006, Mike Schumann wrote:
>Prices will come down when the chinese start building
>gliders.
>
>Mike Schumann
>
>'GK' wrote in message
oups.com...
>> [1] of the cost of a
>> new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The
>>high cost of a new
>> sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed
>>on the war between
>> Airbus and Boeing.
>>
>> - In one of the previous DG newsletters their explanantion
>>of higher
>> costs was....inability to produce a quality glider
>>elsewere but
>> Germany.
>> They raise prices because they want to make more
>>$$. That's it. After
>> all, they dont even have a competition outside of
>>Germany.
>>
>
>
>

[Mike Schumann]

If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2 the cost, people would
line up to buy them.

Mike Schumann

"Nyal Williams" > wrote in message
...
> Not necessarily; we will have to be persuaded to buy
> them.
>
> At 22:36 01 November 2006, Mike Schumann wrote:
>>Prices will come down when the chinese start building
>>gliders.
>>
>>Mike Schumann
>>
>>'GK' wrote in message
oups.com...
>>> [1] of the cost of a
>>> new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The
>>>high cost of a new
>>> sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed
>>>on the war between
>>> Airbus and Boeing.
>>>
>>> - In one of the previous DG newsletters their explanantion
>>>of higher
>>> costs was....inability to produce a quality glider
>>>elsewere but
>>> Germany.
>>> They raise prices because they want to make more
>>>$$. That's it. After
>>> all, they dont even have a competition outside of
>>>Germany.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>

[Neal Pfeiffer]

What is for sure is that the cost of carbon-fiber cloth has gone up
greatly (well over 100%) over the past two years. Whether that is tied
to Boeing using (or stocking up with) much more of the aircraft-quality,
carbon supply for their 787 is a matter for discussion.

For some new gliders, the increased cost for carbon makes a case for
using carbon only in the highest-stress locations and glass for the
majority of the structure. The end product may be a little heavier, but
should cost much less.

wrote:
> I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
> paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
> new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
> sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
> Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
> same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
> used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
> sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
> the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
> take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
> it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
> how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
> thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
> for improvements of prices on used market.
>
> Jacek
> Pasco, WA
>
> And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
> any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......
>

[Brad]

Not only has carbon fiber gone up in price, but the availability has
been severely limited. I bought about 100 yards more than a year and a
half ago for about $25.00 a yard. This was for the Hexcell 282 and 284
styles. These are very close to what the Europeans use. I can get the
same styles now for about $36 to $38 a yard. If you buy more, the price
goes down a bit, and I'm sure that the best prices go to the biggest
customers. I'm just glad to know when I need more if SHOULD be
available.

Not only have Boeing and Airbus cornered the market, but they also have
specified different weaves and weights, so the carbon manufacturers
have obliged them by making that instead of the "common" styles used by
the rest of us.

I rather enjoy working with carbon, the HP-24 fuselage I made using
carbon, and carbon/kevlar hybrid is quite a bit stiffer, stronger and
lighter than the equivalent fiberglass only fuselage we made.

Cheers,
Brad

Jacek, how many gliders do you have?

Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
> What is for sure is that the cost of carbon-fiber cloth has gone up
> greatly (well over 100%) over the past two years. Whether that is tied
> to Boeing using (or stocking up with) much more of the aircraft-quality,
> carbon supply for their 787 is a matter for discussion.
>
> For some new gliders, the increased cost for carbon makes a case for
> using carbon only in the highest-stress locations and glass for the
> majority of the structure. The end product may be a little heavier, but
> should cost much less.
>
> wrote:
> > I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
> > paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
> > new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
> > sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
> > Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
> > same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
> > used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
> > sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
> > the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
> > take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
> > it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
> > how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
> > thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
> > for improvements of prices on used market.
> >
> > Jacek
> > Pasco, WA
> >
> > And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
> > any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......
> >

[Graeme Cant]

GK wrote:
> Mike Schumann wrote:
>> Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.
>>
>> Mike Schumann
>
> - Or companies like Honda.

That won't bring prices down. Honda build better, not cheaper.

GC

[Graeme Cant]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2 the cost, people would
> line up to buy them.

I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this group have rather
bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob factor about
German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some selling -
especially if they're cheaper.

GC

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Graeme Cant wrote:
> GK wrote:
>> Mike Schumann wrote:
>>> Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.
>>>
>>> Mike Schumann
>>
>> - Or companies like Honda.
>
> That won't bring prices down. Honda build better, not cheaper.
>
Car makers live by planned obsolescence. Look forward to the 10 year
glider if they get into the game.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

Brad wrote:
> Not only has carbon fiber gone up in price, but the availability has
> been severely limited. I bought about 100 yards more than a year and a
> half ago for about $25.00 a yard. This was for the Hexcell 282 and 284
> styles. These are very close to what the Europeans use. I can get the
> same styles now for about $36 to $38 a yard. If you buy more, the price
> goes down a bit, and I'm sure that the best prices go to the biggest
> customers. I'm just glad to know when I need more if SHOULD be
> available.
>
> Not only have Boeing and Airbus cornered the market, but they also have
> specified different weaves and weights, so the carbon manufacturers
> have obliged them by making that instead of the "common" styles used by
> the rest of us.
>
> I rather enjoy working with carbon, the HP-24 fuselage I made using
> carbon, and carbon/kevlar hybrid is quite a bit stiffer, stronger and
> lighter than the equivalent fiberglass only fuselage we made.
>
> Cheers,
> Brad
>
> Jacek, how many gliders do you have?

Just 2. I have Pegase 101a and LS-3a....

Jacek


>
> Neal Pfeiffer wrote:
> > What is for sure is that the cost of carbon-fiber cloth has gone up
> > greatly (well over 100%) over the past two years. Whether that is tied
> > to Boeing using (or stocking up with) much more of the aircraft-quality,
> > carbon supply for their 787 is a matter for discussion.
> >
> > For some new gliders, the increased cost for carbon makes a case for
> > using carbon only in the highest-stress locations and glass for the
> > majority of the structure. The end product may be a little heavier, but
> > should cost much less.
> >
> > wrote:
> > > I just received an email with the monthly news from DG. The 2
> > > paragraphs that struck me most is the explanation [1] of the cost of a
> > > new glider and [2] cost of replacement parts. The high cost of a new
> > > sailplanes and the delays in production was blamed on the war between
> > > Airbus and Boeing. OK, lets say I'll buy some of that....but at the
> > > same time I started thinking about cost of used gliders. If the analogy
> > > used in the newsletter was applied both ways then the cost of used
> > > sailplanes should go up significantly....or maybe for European market
> > > the best purchases on the used market are here in the U.S.? When you
> > > take the cost and read the explanation about the cost of parts...well,
> > > it seems to me that the used market should be booming now. I don't know
> > > how many of you received the DG newsletter but ....are there any
> > > thoughts? I guess I will sit for a while on one of my gliders and wait
> > > for improvements of prices on used market.
> > >
> > > Jacek
> > > Pasco, WA
> > >
> > > And by the way Tom.....you can get parts to the PZL Jantar line without
> > > any problems and that is not from one but multiple sources......
> > >

[Nyal Williams]

We all remember the consequences associated with the
farmed-out Discii and Ventii manufacturing.


At 09:01 02 November 2006, Graeme Cant wrote:
>Mike Schumann wrote:
>> If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2
>>the cost, people would
>> line up to buy them.
>
>I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this
>group have rather
>bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob
>factor about
>German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some
>selling -
>especially if they're cheaper.
>
>GC
>

[Brad]

AMS builds fine sailplanes. I am interested to see how well their
re-issue of the LS-4 and LS-6 will be greeted.
My Apis-13 was made by Albastar, who were a group of ELAN guys, now
since bought out by AMS. I am very impressed with the quality of the
Apis. It is not trying to be a German glider, and I find that is fine
with me.

Brad
199AK


Nyal Williams wrote:
> We all remember the consequences associated with the
> farmed-out Discii and Ventii manufacturing.
>
>
> At 09:01 02 November 2006, Graeme Cant wrote:
> >Mike Schumann wrote:
> >> If someone came up with a DG-1000 equivalent at 1/2
> >>the cost, people would
> >> line up to buy them.
> >
> >I don't think so. As the Polish contributors to this
> >group have rather
> >bitterly commented every now and then, there is a snob
> >factor about
> >German gliders and NOT built in Germany will take some
> >selling -
> >especially if they're cheaper.
> >
> >GC
> >

[Jeremy Zawodny]

Brad wrote:
> AMS builds fine sailplanes. I am interested to see how well their
> re-issue of the LS-4 and LS-6 will be greeted.
> My Apis-13 was made by Albastar, who were a group of ELAN guys, now
> since bought out by AMS. I am very impressed with the quality of the
> Apis. It is not trying to be a German glider, and I find that is fine
> with me.

And everyone who looks closely at my non-German HpH 304C comments on how
well built it is.

Jeremy

[Doug Hoffman]

Eric Greenwell wrote:
> GK wrote:
[snip]
> (Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...
>
> So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
> glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!

You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
sound of that.

Doug Hoffman

[Shawn]

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> GK wrote:
> [snip]
>> (Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...
>>
>> So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
>> glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!
>
> You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
> may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
> USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
> are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
> Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
> what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
> Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
> gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
> sound of that.

Beats the hell out of working at Wally World.

Shawn

[Eric Greenwell]

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> GK wrote:
> [snip]
>> (Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...
>>
>> So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
>> glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!
>
> You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
> may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
> USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
> are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
> Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
> what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
> Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
> gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
> sound of that.

Lighten up, Doug - almost all our new gliders come from Europe now, so
we're talking about adding jobs, not losing them. I think it would great
if a foreign company with a lot of money would bankroll a USA company to
design and build gliders here, the situation I (humorously, I thought)
suggested. Production is the hard part of getting a glider into the
customer's hands, not the design. I'd like to see Greg Cole get back to
the designing the DuckHawk instead of chasing production issues.

Building gliders isn't just "grunt work" but also involves a lot of
skilled labor, and that's a big part of the production problem: finding
people that can do the work, and having enough work to keep them busy so
they can do the work efficiently, and you can afford to pay them. These
aren't minimum wage workers that you can pull off the streets.

And while it is only a fantasy that Honda would manufacture gliders
here, they will be building the Hondajet in the US.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Brad]

Eric, SparrowHawk aside..............so, what if an American
Manufacturer came up with a sailplane that was designed and made in the
USA. I wonder if it would sell. Elsewhere in this thread it's been
stated that only the latest from Germany is what most want.

I think what needs to be done is a simple, elegant looking sports class
machine; designed from the ground up to be self-launch using an
electric motor. 15m, with an LD of aroud 40:1, this would not be the
latest hot competition ship, and would not even pretend to be, it would
be a fun flying, good performing sailplane that those of us who want to
fly for fun and don't have huge salaries could afford.

Maybe this isn't possible, but at least someone could try.

Cheers,
Brad


Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Doug Hoffman wrote:
> > Eric Greenwell wrote:
> >> GK wrote:
> > [snip]
> >> (Honda) Which builds their cars in the USA...
> >>
> >> So, maybe we'll see a corporate buyout of Windward Performance, and the
> >> glider renamed the "HondaHawk". I like the sound of that!
> >
> > You like the sound of another foreign company taking over US jobs? It
> > may be true that, for example, Honda builds (some of) their cars in the
> > USA. But what does that really mean? It means that the US employees
> > are generally doing the grunt work of manual labor. Most all
> > Engineering and Management jobs there have been shipped overseas. So
> > what kinds of jobs will our children, grandchildren, etc. have?
> > Working on an assembly line bolting together Hondas (be they cars or
> > gliders)? Not a pretty picture in my view. So no, I don't like the
> > sound of that.
>
> Lighten up, Doug - almost all our new gliders come from Europe now, so
> we're talking about adding jobs, not losing them. I think it would great
> if a foreign company with a lot of money would bankroll a USA company to
> design and build gliders here, the situation I (humorously, I thought)
> suggested. Production is the hard part of getting a glider into the
> customer's hands, not the design. I'd like to see Greg Cole get back to
> the designing the DuckHawk instead of chasing production issues.
>
> Building gliders isn't just "grunt work" but also involves a lot of
> skilled labor, and that's a big part of the production problem: finding
> people that can do the work, and having enough work to keep them busy so
> they can do the work efficiently, and you can afford to pay them. These
> aren't minimum wage workers that you can pull off the streets.
>
> And while it is only a fantasy that Honda would manufacture gliders
> here, they will be building the Hondajet in the US.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Eric Greenwell]

Brad wrote:
> Eric, SparrowHawk aside..............so, what if an American
> Manufacturer came up with a sailplane that was designed and made in the
> USA. I wonder if it would sell. Elsewhere in this thread it's been
> stated that only the latest from Germany is what most want.
>
> I think what needs to be done is a simple, elegant looking sports class
> machine; designed from the ground up to be self-launch using an
> electric motor. 15m, with an LD of aroud 40:1, this would not be the
> latest hot competition ship, and would not even pretend to be, it would
> be a fun flying, good performing sailplane that those of us who want to
> fly for fun and don't have huge salaries could afford.
>
> Maybe this isn't possible, but at least someone could try.

You mean like Apis or Silent electric self-launchers, but from the USA?
I think it would be an attractive offering and certainly technically
feasible, but a challenge as a business.

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Brad]

Yes, like the Apis-E or the Silent-2.
Any insights into the business aspects?

Thanks,
Brad


Eric Greenwell wrote:
> Brad wrote:
> > Eric, SparrowHawk aside..............so, what if an American
> > Manufacturer came up with a sailplane that was designed and made in the
> > USA. I wonder if it would sell. Elsewhere in this thread it's been
> > stated that only the latest from Germany is what most want.
> >
> > I think what needs to be done is a simple, elegant looking sports class
> > machine; designed from the ground up to be self-launch using an
> > electric motor. 15m, with an LD of aroud 40:1, this would not be the
> > latest hot competition ship, and would not even pretend to be, it would
> > be a fun flying, good performing sailplane that those of us who want to
> > fly for fun and don't have huge salaries could afford.
> >
> > Maybe this isn't possible, but at least someone could try.
>
> You mean like Apis or Silent electric self-launchers, but from the USA?
> I think it would be an attractive offering and certainly technically
> feasible, but a challenge as a business.
>
> --
> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>
> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>
> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[bumper]

As an almost retired business owner (I have sometimes not visited the office
for over a year at a time :c), I think businesses here face several problems
when it comes to skilled labor.

The average worker no longer spends 20 to 30 years working for a firm. A few
years back, I read it was more like 4 to 5 years max. Spend the money to
train them and then they leave. Among much of the work force there is no
longer the same work ethic that once was common. And too, there's an us vs.
them mentality between management and labor which takes a lot of the "fun
and enjoyment" out of running a company. Worker expectations for wages and
benefits remain higher than in many other countries. Many are a bit spoiled,
unwilling to do the "grunt work", "What? A corner office and secretary
doesn't come with that shovel?!"

So, yeah, it might be tough to make a go of it here when the competition
(not referring to Germany now) can do it as good or better for less labor
cost.

bumper

While this may
"Brad" > wrote in message
oups.com...
> Yes, like the Apis-E or the Silent-2.
> Any insights into the business aspects?
>
> Thanks,
> Brad
>
>
> Eric Greenwell wrote:
>> Brad wrote:
>> > Eric, SparrowHawk aside..............so, what if an American
>> > Manufacturer came up with a sailplane that was designed and made in the
>> > USA. I wonder if it would sell. Elsewhere in this thread it's been
>> > stated that only the latest from Germany is what most want.
>> >
>> > I think what needs to be done is a simple, elegant looking sports class
>> > machine; designed from the ground up to be self-launch using an
>> > electric motor. 15m, with an LD of aroud 40:1, this would not be the
>> > latest hot competition ship, and would not even pretend to be, it would
>> > be a fun flying, good performing sailplane that those of us who want to
>> > fly for fun and don't have huge salaries could afford.
>> >
>> > Maybe this isn't possible, but at least someone could try.
>>
>> You mean like Apis or Silent electric self-launchers, but from the USA?
>> I think it would be an attractive offering and certainly technically
>> feasible, but a challenge as a business.
>>
>> --
>> Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
>> Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly
>>
>> "Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
>> www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html
>>
>> "A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org
>

[Doug Hoffman]

Eric Greenwell wrote:

> Lighten up, Doug

It's a topic that I can't take lightly, Eric.

Why not conjecture that a US person or company buy out Windward
Performance? That would also free up Greg Cole for more design work.

> - almost all our new gliders come from Europe now, so
> we're talking about adding jobs, not losing them.

Why does it take a foreign company buyout to add jobs?

I have no issue with buying foreign-made products. I am a strong
believer in free competition and the value of a global competitive
environment.

What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
If they do, where shall they work?

I admire people like Cole and Bob Kuykendall who boldly dare to use
their brains and technical abilities to create technically challenging
product. There are others. Just not enough.

I am not slamming those that work on auto assembly lines or who
assemble gliders and airplanes instead of designing them or managing a
company that builds them. I just prefer that future generations have a
choice. The way things are going I fear they may not.


> And while it is only a fantasy that Honda would manufacture gliders
> here, they will be building the Hondajet in the US.

And we're all supposed to be feeling good about that? Who designed the
jet? Who will be putting it together per their bosses instructions?
Would you prefer your kids and grandkids to be the designers or the
assemblers?

Doug Hoffman

[Shawn]

Doug Hoffman wrote:

> What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> If they do, where shall they work?

What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.

Shawn

[Marc Ramsey]

bumper wrote:
> The average worker no longer spends 20 to 30 years working for a firm. A few
> years back, I read it was more like 4 to 5 years max. Spend the money to
> train them and then they leave. Among much of the work force there is no
> longer the same work ethic that once was common. And too, there's an us vs.
> them mentality between management and labor which takes a lot of the "fun
> and enjoyment" out of running a company. Worker expectations for wages and
> benefits remain higher than in many other countries. Many are a bit spoiled,
> unwilling to do the "grunt work", "What? A corner office and secretary
> doesn't come with that shovel?!"

This is way off topic, of course, but what the heck. I'm sure bumper
was one of the better bosses around, but he seems to have missed
something. During the 80s, corporations in the US started considering
their employees to be nothing more than replaceable "resources". They
could be laid off on a whim, their pension funds raided and rendered
insolvent, pay arbitrarily cut, benefits slashed, all in the name of
competitiveness and profits. By the early 90s, many of us working types
figured out what the deal was, and recognized there wasn't much point to
being loyal to companies that no longer felt any obligation to those of
us who had to do the work. Work ethic means little or nothing if you
are a faceless cog in a machine.

In other words, "as Ye sow, so shall ye reap"...

Marc

[Eric Greenwell]

Brad wrote:
> Yes, like the Apis-E or the Silent-2.
> Any insights into the business aspects?

Just small ones from hanging around the Windward Performance folks a few
times a year.

You need a manufacturing facility large enough to hold all the tooling,
planes, and parts in progress, office, and material storage. If you do
all the work in-house, then you a paint booth, wing-sized autoclave, and
canopy oven and the space to put the things. Space costs money, and
heating or cooling the space may not be cheap.

Workers are most efficient if they can work full-time instead of a few
days on - a few days off, and if they can build several wings,
fuselages, etc at a time, instead one glider at a time. This means a
well-designed work flow, maybe some duplicated tooling, and a decent
order backlog.

Finding skilled workers isn't easy unless you are near a place that
already uses them (like Lancair for Windward Performance), and keeping
them isn't easy if you can't keep them busy and paid well. Similar to
the efficiency issue.

Glider pilots are a conservative sort, so getting them to buy a glider
from a new company can be a long, slow process. While you are waiting
for that order backlog to build up, you have to pay for the space, the
materials, the workers.

At some point, you have to figure out what to charge for the glider, and
that's a real headache because you aren't sure of the number of orders,
so you don't know what volume of materials and parts you'll be order, so
you don't know what the costs will be.

Volume is the big issue: anything you want to buy, whether it's fiber,
resin, laser cut parts, even plain old acetone, is cheaper if you buy a
lot of it, but that takes money up front and storage space.

The material prices can rise unexpectedly, whether it's carbon fiber,
resin, paint ($300+ a gallon for some types), or even that acetone.

And, you need some office help to do the accounting, ordering supplies
and making sure they show up on time (and finding alternate sources when
original ones can't deliver), the gofer to run around getting the
inevitable bits and pieces, replacing broken tools, and another gofer to
handle transportation if painting or other tasks are done elsewhere.
There's a lot of the "one damn thing after another" kind of problems.

Somebody has to talk to prospective customers, which can be very time
consuming, and make the sales (you hope that person is really busy). Oh
yeah, advertising, and showing up at the convention with your glider, a
6000 mile round trip at times.

If you have a lot of money to begin with, it's a lot easier to manage,
of course. Then you just have to worry about making a small fortune in
aviation by starting with a big one.

If I wanted to go into the business, I'd try talk to everyone that had
done it that I could find. Not just people like Greg Cole and George
Applebay that have actually started up glider companies, but people in
the small volume airplane field, and even the aircraft kit business. You
might already know a glider pilot that does that!

--
Eric Greenwell - Washington State, USA
Change "netto" to "net" to email me directly

"Transponders in Sailplanes" on the Soaring Safety Foundation website
www.soaringsafety.org/prevention/articles.html

"A Guide to Self-launching Sailplane Operation" at www.motorglider.org

[Doug Hoffman]

Shawn wrote:

> We're coasting at this point.

I agree.

> Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids.

I didn't and don't.

> They're dealing, as well
> as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.

Yes. The older generations, all of us, should be doing a better job of
guiding the younger generations. I would like to see a national
effort, similar to the "space race" of the 1960's, to stimulate
technical excellence in the education of our youth.

I guess I've strayed a bit from soaring. Sorry. One of my heroes is
Dick Schreder. He successfully single-handedly designed, built, and
piloted his own gliders against the best in the world in soaring. An
amazing accomplishment.

Doug Hoffman

[Bruce T.]

Shawn wrote:
> Doug Hoffman wrote:
>
> > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> > If they do, where shall they work?
>
> What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
> Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
> technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
> Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
> Shawn

What a truckload of patronizing bull.
Ever heard of Genentech, Google, Cisco Systems, Intel, My Space, Apple,
Halliburton, Exxon, You Tube, Corning, Trimble Navigation, the GPS
system, the Tomahawk, Cirrus Design, Global Hawk or the U.S. Army?
Have you ever thought about the technology that goes into an F-22, the
USS George Bush or USS Reagan, either one of which is more powerful
than the military of most countries? A day after the tsunami hit that
dope smoking paradise for European hedonists, the USS Abraham Lincoln
steamed out of Hong Kong and provided fresh water, food and rescue
choppers and saved the lives of a half million muslims, buddhists and
european pot-heads. The United States has more universities per capita
than any other country in the world and it is damn hard to get into the
engineering or science departments of every one of them. Liberals and
Dumocrats have made it simple to get degrees in naval gazing; we sure
need more ethnic studies experts, American Indian wannabes, and snotty
little leftists learning how to throw food at people they and their
esteemed but barely literate liberal arts professors don't like. "Oh,
you got her in the face with that pie, Sean, that should get you an A+
in your comparative political feelings course. That'll teach her to
spout off on that religious crap. Here is your Phi Beta Kappa key and
a job with the government. Be sure to count all those mosquitoes in
that swamp, er wetlands. They're very important, you know. Global
warming is causing their numbers to shrink and you're so highly
educated you'll believe it."
I know several kids who have graduated from religous home studies
courses, one attends Rice, another is at Carnegie Mellon and has been
accepted into Medical School, two more attend Duke and one is at U
Penn, all on academic scholarships in science. Many more attend local
universities. All of them grew up in evangelical Christian families,
they are still religous and they didn't have their time wasted studying
the liberal blather which masquerades as public education. At least not
in high school. And they will become scientists, and they are
Americans, and in the future they will work with Chinese, Indian,
Korean, Pakistani, German, English, French, and other engineers and
scientists in American companies, in America, at companies many of
them will start, because most of the world sucks and America is where
the majority of the worlds educated people want to live.

Yes. The older generations, all of us, should be doing a better job of
> guiding the younger generations. I would like to see a national
> effort, similar to the "space race" of the 1960's, to stimulate
> technical excellence in the education of our youth.

How about requiring universities to increase their capacity for
teaching science courses and eliminate at least half of their liberal
arts faculty to pay for it. How about granting postgraduate
fellowships and money to American students and let foreign students get
funding from their own taxpayers. How about requiring that a certain
percentage of faculty positions must be filled by Americans who speak
American English. Getting a Science Phd. in America is really kind of
dumb, unless you really are a genius, because it puts you in
competition with the worlds smartest people, most of whom are trying to
get Phd. level jobs in America, and most of whom really are smarter
and more dedicated than you because that is their only way of getting
here. How about fostering a culture where we can believe that we
really are the best society on earth because the worlds people seem
desperate to come here and we don't seem all that keen to leave. How
about getting rid of the idiots at Princeton who seem to value giving
scholarship money to Afghan terriorists over American citizens.

[Shawn]

Doug Hoffman wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>
>> We're coasting at this point.
>
> I agree.
>
>> Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids.
>
> I didn't and don't.
>
>> They're dealing, as well
>> as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
>
> Yes. The older generations, all of us, should be doing a better job of
> guiding the younger generations. I would like to see a national
> effort, similar to the "space race" of the 1960's, to stimulate
> technical excellence in the education of our youth.

Great idea.

> I guess I've strayed a bit from soaring. Sorry. One of my heroes is
> Dick Schreder. He successfully single-handedly designed, built, and
> piloted his own gliders against the best in the world in soaring. An
> amazing accomplishment.

I got interested in soaring as a kid because a friends dad was building
a Schreder design in his garage. I joined the SSA at 14, got a ride,
hung out at the glider port (Black Forest in CO), and learned to fly at
28. Ah well, the SSA at work in the late 70's.

Shawn

[Brad]

I have to agree with a lot of what you just said Bruce.

Here's a liberal slogan I can't stand:

"To those who have the need, from those who have the ability"

It has been taken to the extreme. Because idiots in the goverment have
realized it is a control and polarizing method of divide and conquer.

Brad
Independant

Bruce T. wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
> > Doug Hoffman wrote:
> >
> > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> > > If they do, where shall they work?
> >
> > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> > education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
> > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> > This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
> > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
> > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
> > Shawn
>
> What a truckload of patronizing bull.
> Ever heard of Genentech, Google, Cisco Systems, Intel, My Space, Apple,
> Halliburton, Exxon, You Tube, Corning, Trimble Navigation, the GPS
> system, the Tomahawk, Cirrus Design, Global Hawk or the U.S. Army?
> Have you ever thought about the technology that goes into an F-22, the
> USS George Bush or USS Reagan, either one of which is more powerful
> than the military of most countries? A day after the tsunami hit that
> dope smoking paradise for European hedonists, the USS Abraham Lincoln
> steamed out of Hong Kong and provided fresh water, food and rescue
> choppers and saved the lives of a half million muslims, buddhists and
> european pot-heads. The United States has more universities per capita
> than any other country in the world and it is damn hard to get into the
> engineering or science departments of every one of them. Liberals and
> Dumocrats have made it simple to get degrees in naval gazing; we sure
> need more ethnic studies experts, American Indian wannabes, and snotty
> little leftists learning how to throw food at people they and their
> esteemed but barely literate liberal arts professors don't like. "Oh,
> you got her in the face with that pie, Sean, that should get you an A+
> in your comparative political feelings course. That'll teach her to
> spout off on that religious crap. Here is your Phi Beta Kappa key and
> a job with the government. Be sure to count all those mosquitoes in
> that swamp, er wetlands. They're very important, you know. Global
> warming is causing their numbers to shrink and you're so highly
> educated you'll believe it."
> I know several kids who have graduated from religous home studies
> courses, one attends Rice, another is at Carnegie Mellon and has been
> accepted into Medical School, two more attend Duke and one is at U
> Penn, all on academic scholarships in science. Many more attend local
> universities. All of them grew up in evangelical Christian families,
> they are still religous and they didn't have their time wasted studying
> the liberal blather which masquerades as public education. At least not
> in high school. And they will become scientists, and they are
> Americans, and in the future they will work with Chinese, Indian,
> Korean, Pakistani, German, English, French, and other engineers and
> scientists in American companies, in America, at companies many of
> them will start, because most of the world sucks and America is where
> the majority of the worlds educated people want to live.
>
> Yes. The older generations, all of us, should be doing a better job of
> > guiding the younger generations. I would like to see a national
> > effort, similar to the "space race" of the 1960's, to stimulate
> > technical excellence in the education of our youth.
>
> How about requiring universities to increase their capacity for
> teaching science courses and eliminate at least half of their liberal
> arts faculty to pay for it. How about granting postgraduate
> fellowships and money to American students and let foreign students get
> funding from their own taxpayers. How about requiring that a certain
> percentage of faculty positions must be filled by Americans who speak
> American English. Getting a Science Phd. in America is really kind of
> dumb, unless you really are a genius, because it puts you in
> competition with the worlds smartest people, most of whom are trying to
> get Phd. level jobs in America, and most of whom really are smarter
> and more dedicated than you because that is their only way of getting
> here. How about fostering a culture where we can believe that we
> really are the best society on earth because the worlds people seem
> desperate to come here and we don't seem all that keen to leave. How
> about getting rid of the idiots at Princeton who seem to value giving
> scholarship money to Afghan terriorists over American citizens.

[Bruce T.]

Copied from "Critique of the Gotha Programme"
by Karl Marx
http://www.marx.org/Archive/1875-Gotha/
QUOTED TEXT
Many paragraphs of boring nonsense followed by the mantra of Liberals
everywhere.

"ONLY THEN then can the narrow horizon of bourgeois right
be crossed in its entirety and society inscribe on its
banners: From each according to his ability, to each
according to his needs! "

END OF QUOTED TEXT
Brad wrote:
> I have to agree with a lot of what you just said Bruce.
>
> Here's a liberal slogan I can't stand:
>
> "To those who have the need, from those who have the ability"
>
> It has been taken to the extreme. Because idiots in the goverment have
> realized it is a control and polarizing method of divide and conquer.
>
> Brad
> Independant
>

[[email protected]]

Shawn wrote:
> Doug Hoffman wrote:
>
> > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> > If they do, where shall they work?
>
> What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
> Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
> technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
> Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
>
> Shawn

Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany, or how about
Iraq?

Tom

[Brad]

That's what I love about this country. A guy passionatley explains what
he feels is wrong with his country, and describes ways in which he
believes it could be changed. And someone else tells him to move to
Iraq.

Just goes to show; the "if you don't like it here, why don't you move
to "insert name here" retort is neither a dem or a rep comeback.

Brad



wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
> > Doug Hoffman wrote:
> >
> > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> > > If they do, where shall they work?
> >
> > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> > education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
> > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> > This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
> > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
> > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
> >
> > Shawn
>
> Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany, or how about
> Iraq?
>
> Tom

[Pete Reinhart]

I don't care where he moves as long as he doesn't come to Texas.
And the same goes for the rest of you who aren't already here.
Cheers!, Pete


"Brad" > wrote in message
ps.com...
> That's what I love about this country. A guy passionatley explains what
> he feels is wrong with his country, and describes ways in which he
> believes it could be changed. And someone else tells him to move to
> Iraq.
>
> Just goes to show; the "if you don't like it here, why don't you move
> to "insert name here" retort is neither a dem or a rep comeback.
>
> Brad
>
>
>
> wrote:
> > Shawn wrote:
> > > Doug Hoffman wrote:
> > >
> > > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and
managerial
> > > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical
educations.
> > > > If they do, where shall they work?
> > >
> > > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> > > education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> > > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about
science?
> > > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> > > This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> > > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> > > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as
a
> > > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this
point.
> > > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> > > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
> > >
> > > Shawn
> >
> > Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany, or how about
> > Iraq?
> >
> > Tom
>

[Stewart Kissel]

Well be prepared two years from now for the return
of you know who :) Somewhere in Texas a village is
looking for him.



At 22:12 05 November 2006, Pete Reinhart wrote:
>I don't care where he moves as long as he doesn't come
>to Texas.
>And the same goes for the rest of you who aren't already
>here.
>Cheers!, Pete
>
>
>'Brad' wrote in message
ps.com...
>> That's what I love about this country. A guy passionatley
>>explains what
>> he feels is wrong with his country, and describes
>>ways in which he
>> believes it could be changed. And someone else tells
>>him to move to
>> Iraq.
>>
>> Just goes to show; the 'if you don't like it here,
>>why don't you move
>> to 'insert name here' retort is neither a dem or a
>>rep comeback.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > Shawn wrote:
>> > > Doug Hoffman wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical
>>>>>and
>managerial
>> > > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem
>>>>>to be complacent
>> > > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting
>>>>>technical
>educations.
>> > > > If they do, where shall they work?
>> > >
>> > > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks
>>>>taxes supporting
>> > > education, particularly college education is a sin
>>>>against god? Ever
>> > > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private
>>>>schooled) about
>science?
>> > > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a
>>>>good education.
>> > > This country debates the morality of teaching some
>>>>of the most solid
>> > > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution,
>>>>climatology,
>> > > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think
>>>>we should continue as
>a
>> > > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're
>>>>coasting at this
>point.
>> > > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're
>>>>dealing, as well
>> > > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've
>>>>made for them.
>> > >
>> > > Shawn
>> >
>> > Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany,
>>>or how about
>> > Iraq?
>> >
>> > Tom
>>
>
>
>

[Shawn]

Pete Reinhart wrote:
> I don't care where he moves as long as he doesn't come to Texas.
> And the same goes for the rest of you who aren't already here.

I lived there when the "Don't mess with Texas" trash campaign began. I
decided "OK, I won't, and left. Great decision.


Shawn

[Shawn]

wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
>> Doug Hoffman wrote:
>>
>>> What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
>>> competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
>>> about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
>>> If they do, where shall they work?
>> What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
>> education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
>> talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
>> Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
>> This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
>> science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
>> cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
>> technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
>> Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
>> as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
>>
>> Shawn
>
> Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany, or how about
> Iraq?


France and Germany don't have nut cases forcing creationism to be taught
as science in the public schools. This is one reason why we are
coasting. I suspect if they teach it in schools in Iraq, it's because
of US policy.



Shawn

[Bruce T.]

Stewart Kissel wrote:
Well be prepared two years from now for the return
of you know who :) Somewhere in Texas a village is
looking for him.

Wow! Stuart can read bumper stickers. He must relly bee smart. Hees
gong too halp Jon Cary ged them stoopid army pepple oud of Irak and
intoo a reel kollege like the ons Kerry god into or Gore flunked out
of.

November 5, 2006
Kerryism
by Victor Davis Hanson
National Review Online

Kerry surely must be one of the saddest Democratic liabilities around.
Some afterthoughts about his latest gaffe, which is one of those rare
glimpses into an entire troubled ideology:

(1) How could John Kerry, born into privilege, and then marrying and
divorcing and marrying out of and back into greater inherited wealth,
lecture anyone at a city college about the ingredients for success in
America? If he were to give personal advice about making it, it would
have to be to marry rich women. Nothing he has accomplished as a
senator or candidate reveals either much natural intelligence or
singular education. Today, Democrats must be wondering why they have
embraced an overrated empty suit, and ostracized a real talent like Joe
Lieberman.

(2) How could Kerry possibly claim that he was thinking of the
uneducated in the context of George Bush, who, after all, went to
Harvard and Yale?

(3) Some of the brightest and most educated Americans are not only in
the military, but veterans of Iraq. Two of the best educated minds I
have met - Col. Bill Hix and Lt. Col. Chris Gibson, both Hoover
Security Fellows - were both Iraqi veterans. What is striking about
visiting Iraq is the wealth of talent there, from privates to generals.
Without being gratuitously cruel, the problem of mediocrity is not in
the ranks of the military, but on our university campuses, where
half-educated professors and non-serious students killing time are
ubiquitous. Personally, I'd wager the intelligence of a Marine Corps
private any day over the average D.C. journalist. Every naval officer
I met at the USNA, without exception, seemed brighter than John Kerry,
whose "brilliance", after all, has managed to offend millions of voters
on the eve of a pivotal election. If the Democrats lose, it will be
almost painful to watch the recriminations against Kerry fly.

(4) This is not the first, but third, time he has denigrated soldiers
in the middle of a war-and there is a systematic theme: John Kerry's
assumed superior morality allows him to pass judgment from on high
about supposedly lesser folk who become tools of a suspect military:
thus we go from limb-loppers and Genghis' hordes to terrorists to
dead-beats. The only constant is that the haughtiness is always
delivered in the same sanctimonious, self-righteous, and patronizing
tone.

(5) The mea culpa that Democrats are blaming the war and not the
warriors is laughable after Sens. Durbin, Kennedy, and Kerry have
collectively compared American soldiers to Nazis, Pol Pot's killers,
Stalinists, terrorists, and Baathists.

(6) The problem is that Kerry is not just a senator, but the most
recent presidential candidate of the Democratic Party, and thus in some
sense, especially given the diminution of Howard Dean, the megaphone of
the entire party.

(7) His pathetic clarification, as he blamed everyone from Tony Snow to
Rush Limbaugh, displayed the same Al Gore derangement syndrome, and
thus raises a larger question: what is it about George Bush that seems
to reduce once sober and experienced liberal pros to infantile ranting?

(8) And why is the supposedly lame Bush so careful in speech, and the
self-acclaimed geniuses like a Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, or Howard Dean
serially spouting ever more stupidities? For all the Democrats'
criticism of George Bush, I can't think of a modern President who has
so infrequently put his foot in his public mouth, and, by the same
token, can't think of any opposition that on the eve of elections seems
to have an almost pathological death wish.

The Democrats should use this occasion to have an autopsy of Kerryism,
or this strange new tony liberalism, that has turned noblesse oblige on
its head. It used to be that millionaire FDRs and JFKs felt sympathy
for those of the lower classes and wished to ensure that the hoi polloi
had some shot at the American dream. But today's elite liberals-a
Howard Dean, Al Gore, Ted Kennedy, George Soros, Ted Turner - love
the high life and playact at being leftists simply because they are
already insulated from the effects of their own nostrums that always
come at someone poorer's expense while providing them some sort of
psychological relief from guilt. Poor Harry Truman must be turning over
in his grave - from bourbon, cigars, and poker to wind-surfing and
L.L. Bean costume-of-the-day says it all.

©2006 Victor Davis Hanson

[Jim Vincent]

Texans....
Proud to be Texans, but don't know why.

"Pete Reinhart" > wrote in message
...
>I don't care where he moves as long as he doesn't come to Texas.
> And the same goes for the rest of you who aren't already here.
> Cheers!, Pete
>
>
> "Brad" > wrote in message
> ps.com...
>> That's what I love about this country. A guy passionatley explains what
>> he feels is wrong with his country, and describes ways in which he
>> believes it could be changed. And someone else tells him to move to
>> Iraq.
>>
>> Just goes to show; the "if you don't like it here, why don't you move
>> to "insert name here" retort is neither a dem or a rep comeback.
>>
>> Brad
>>
>>
>>
>> wrote:
>> > Shawn wrote:
>> > > Doug Hoffman wrote:
>> > >
>> > > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and
> managerial
>> > > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
>> > > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical
> educations.
>> > > > If they do, where shall they work?
>> > >
>> > > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
>> > > education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
>> > > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about
> science?
>> > > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
>> > > This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
>> > > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
>> > > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as
> a
>> > > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this
> point.
>> > > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as
>> > > well
>> > > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
>> > >
>> > > Shawn
>> >
>> > Why don't you try moving? I recommend France, Germany, or how about
>> > Iraq?
>> >
>> > Tom
>>
>
>

[Mike Schumann]

I bought one of the early Honda Civics when they 1st came out. Back then
Hondas were both better and cheaper.

Mike Schumann

"Graeme Cant" <gcantinter@tnodedotnet> wrote in message
...
> GK wrote:
>> Mike Schumann wrote:
>>> Prices will come down when the chinese start building gliders.
>>>
>>> Mike Schumann
>>
>> - Or companies like Honda.
>
> That won't bring prices down. Honda build better, not cheaper.
>
> GC

[Martin Gregorie[_1_]]

Mike Schumann wrote:
> I bought one of the early Honda Civics when they 1st came out. Back then
> Hondas were both better and cheaper.
>
The original Honda Civic was horrid.

Honda had merely re-invented the Renault 4, but a decade after Renault
and done it remarkably badly.


--
martin@ | Martin Gregorie
gregorie. | Essex, UK
org |

[[email protected]]

Bruce T. wrote:
> Shawn wrote:
> > Doug Hoffman wrote:
> >
> > > What concerns me is the continuing decline of technical and managerial
> > > competence in our country. We, as a country, seem to be complacent
> > > about this. Far too few of our kids are getting technical educations.
> > > If they do, where shall they work?
> >
> > What do you expect when every repugnican thinks taxes supporting
> > education, particularly college education is a sin against god? Ever
> > talk to a psycho-christian kid (home or private schooled) about science?
> > Scary, and this is what our pres. considers a good education.
> > This country debates the morality of teaching some of the most solid
> > science on the books; geology, biology, evolution, climatology,
> > cosmology-off the top of my head, and you think we should continue as a
> > technological leader? Don't be so naive. We're coasting at this point.
> > Whatever you do, don't blame it on the kids. They're dealing, as well
> > as we've equipped them (Ha!), with the world we've made for them.
> > Shawn
>
> What a truckload of patronizing bull.
> Ever heard of Genentech, Google, Cisco Systems, Intel, My Space, Apple,
> Halliburton, Exxon, You Tube, Corning, Trimble Navigation, the GPS
> system, the Tomahawk, Cirrus Design, Global Hawk or the U.S. Army?
> Have you ever thought about the technology that goes into an F-22, the
> USS George Bush or USS Reagan, either one of which is more powerful
> than the military of most countries? A day after the tsunami hit that
> dope smoking paradise for European hedonists, the USS Abraham Lincoln
> steamed out of Hong Kong and provided fresh water, food and rescue
> choppers and saved the lives of a half million muslims, buddhists and
> european pot-heads. The United States has more universities per capita
> than any other country in the world and it is damn hard to get into the
> engineering or science departments of every one of them. Liberals and
> Dumocrats have made it simple to get degrees in naval gazing; we sure
> need more ethnic studies experts, American Indian wannabes, and snotty
> little leftists learning how to throw food at people they and their
> esteemed but barely literate liberal arts professors don't like. "Oh,
> you got her in the face with that pie, Sean, that should get you an A+
> in your comparative political feelings course. That'll teach her to
> spout off on that religious crap. Here is your Phi Beta Kappa key and
> a job with the government. Be sure to count all those mosquitoes in
> that swamp, er wetlands. They're very important, you know. Global
> warming is causing their numbers to shrink and you're so highly
> educated you'll believe it."
> I know several kids who have graduated from religous home studies
> courses, one attends Rice, another is at Carnegie Mellon and has been
> accepted into Medical School, two more attend Duke and one is at U
> Penn, all on academic scholarships in science. Many more attend local
> universities. All of them grew up in evangelical Christian families,
> they are still religous and they didn't have their time wasted studying
> the liberal blather which masquerades as public education. At least not
> in high school. And they will become scientists, and they are
> Americans, and in the future they will work with Chinese, Indian,
> Korean, Pakistani, German, English, French, and other engineers and
> scientists in American companies, in America, at companies many of
> them will start, because most of the world sucks and America is where
> the majority of the worlds educated people want to live.
>
> Yes. The older generations, all of us, should be doing a better job of
> > guiding the younger generations. I would like to see a national
> > effort, similar to the "space race" of the 1960's, to stimulate
> > technical excellence in the education of our youth.
>
> How about requiring universities to increase their capacity for
> teaching science courses and eliminate at least half of their liberal
> arts faculty to pay for it. How about granting postgraduate
> fellowships and money to American students and let foreign students get
> funding from their own taxpayers. How about requiring that a certain
> percentage of faculty positions must be filled by Americans who speak
> American English. Getting a Science Phd. in America is really kind of
> dumb, unless you really are a genius, because it puts you in
> competition with the worlds smartest people, most of whom are trying to
> get Phd. level jobs in America, and most of whom really are smarter
> and more dedicated than you because that is their only way of getting
> here. How about fostering a culture where we can believe that we
> really are the best society on earth because the worlds people seem
> desperate to come here and we don't seem all that keen to leave. How
> about getting rid of the idiots at Princeton who seem to value giving
> scholarship money to Afghan terriorists over American citizens.

Hi Bruce,

I think that you have summarized things very well, I still don't get
why so many people don't see things the way they really are....is it
the ignorance of the masses? Lack of discipline?

[Bruce T.]

wrote:
How about fostering a culture where we can believe that we
> > really are the best society on earth because the worlds people seem
> > desperate to come here and we don't seem all that keen to leave. How
> > about getting rid of the idiots at Princeton who seem to value giving
> > scholarship money to Afghan terriorists over American citizens.
>
> Hi Bruce,
>
> I think that you have summarized things very well, I still don't get
> why so many people don't see things the way they really are....is it
> the ignorance of the masses? Lack of discipline?


Where is the West?
By Thomas Sowell
Thursday, November 9, 2006

European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they
protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should
tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of western
society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.

Two generations of being insulated from the reality of the
international jungle, of not having to defend their own survival
because they have been living under the protection of the American
nuclear umbrella, have allowed too many Europeans to grow soft and
indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers.

The very means of their salvation have been demonized for decades in
anti-nuclear movements and protesters calling themselves "anti-war."
But there is a huge difference between being anti-war in words and
being anti-war in deeds.

How many times, in its thousands of years of history, has Europe gone
60 years without a major war, as it has since World War II? That peace
has been due to American nuclear weapons, which was all that could
deter the Soviet Union's armies from marching right across Europe to
the Atlantic Ocean.

Having overwhelming military force on your side, and letting your
enemies know that you have the guts to use it, is being genuinely
anti-war. Chamberlain's appeasement brought on World War II and
Reagan's military buildup ended the Cold War.

The famous Roman peace of ancient times did not come from negotiations,
cease-fires, or pretty talk. It came from the Roman Empire's crushing
defeat and annihilation of Carthage, which served as a warning to
anyone else who might have had any bright ideas about messing with
Rome.

Only after the Roman Empire began to lose its own internal cohesion,
patriotism and fighting spirit over the centuries did it begin to
succumb to its external enemies and finally collapse.

That seems to be where western civilization is heading today.

Internal cohesion? Not only does much of today's generation in western
societies have a "do your own thing" attitude, defying rules and
flouting authority are glorified and Balkanization through
"multiculturalism" has become dogma.

Patriotism? Not only is patriotism disdained, the very basis for pride
in one's country and culture is systematically undermined in our
educational institutions at all levels.

The achievements of western civilization are buried in histories that
portray every human sin found here as if they were peculiarities of the
west.

The classic example is slavery, which existed all over the world for
thousands of years and yet is incessantly depicted as if it was a
peculiarity of Europeans enslaving Africans. Barbary pirates alone
brought twice as many enslaved Europeans to North Africa as there were
Africans brought in bondage to the United States and the American
colonies from which it was formed.

How many schools and colleges are going to teach that, going against
political correctness and undermining white guilt?

How many people have any inkling that it was precisely western
civilization which eventually turned against slavery and began stamping
it out when non-western societies still saw nothing wrong with it?

How can a generation be expected to fight for the survival of a culture
or a civilization that has been trashed in its own institutions, taught
to tolerate even the intolerance of other cultures brought into its own
midst, and conditioned to regard any instinct to fight for its own
survival as being a "cowboy"?

Western nations that show any signs of standing up for
self-preservation are rare exceptions. The United States and Israel are
the only western nations which have no choice but to rely on
self-defense -- and both are demonized, not only by our enemies but
also by many in other western nations.

Australia recently told its Muslim population that, if they want to
live under Islamic law, then they should leave Australia. That makes
three western nations that have not yet completely succumbed to the
corrosive and suicidal trends of our times.

If and when we all succumb, will the epitaph of western civilization
say that we had the power to annihilate our enemies but were so
paralyzed by confusion that we ended up being annihilated ourselves?


Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of
Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.

[KM]

>Bruce T. wrote:
> What a truckload of patronizing bull.

How refined, you are obviously home schooled.

> Ever heard of Genentech, Google, Cisco Systems, Intel, My Space, Apple,
> Halliburton, Exxon, You Tube, Corning, Trimble Navigation, the GPS
> system, the Tomahawk, Cirrus Design, Global Hawk or the U.S. Army?

US Army??What do they have to do with free
enterprise?Halliburton??About all they are famous for is gouging the US
taxpayer (Through the US Army of course).

> Have you ever thought about the technology that goes into an F-22, the
> USS George Bush or USS Reagan, either one of which is more powerful
> than the military of most countries? A day after the tsunami hit that
> dope smoking paradise for European hedonists, the USS Abraham Lincoln
> steamed out of Hong Kong and provided fresh water, food and rescue
> choppers and saved the lives of a half million muslims, buddhists and
> european pot-heads.

Where were these teckno hotshots after Katrina you knuklehead?

> The United States has more universities per capita
> than any other country in the world and it is damn hard to get into the
> engineering or science departments of every one of them. Liberals and
> Dumocrats have made it simple to get degrees in naval gazing; we sure
> need more ethnic studies experts, American Indian wannabes, and snotty
> little leftists learning how to throw food at people they and their
> esteemed but barely literate liberal arts professors don't like. "Oh,
> you got her in the face with that pie, Sean, that should get you an A+
> in your comparative political feelings course. That'll teach her to
> spout off on that religious crap.

Dude, you have been watching too much Bill Orielly.

> I know several kids who have graduated from religous home studies
> courses, one attends Rice, another is at Carnegie Mellon and has been
> accepted into Medical School, two more attend Duke and one is at U
> Penn, all on academic scholarships in science. Many more attend local
> universities. All of them grew up in evangelical Christian families,
> they are still religous and they didn't have their time wasted studying
> the liberal blather which masquerades as public education.

And no doubt these kids were filled with hatred and intolerance, just
like you.

> How about requiring universities to increase their capacity for
> teaching science courses and eliminate at least half of their liberal
> arts faculty to pay for it.

Good idea! This way we can train more weapons engineers and start more
civil wars in places like Iraq.

>How about fostering a culture where we can believe that we
> really are the best society on earth because the worlds people seem
> desperate to come here and we don't seem all that keen to leave. How
> about getting rid of the idiots at Princeton who seem to value giving
> scholarship money to Afghan terriorists over American citizens.

Yea, nothing like that good old White Christian supremacy!Dude, you are
a self righteous ding dong.You are on the wrong Google list.Try the
religous nazi zelot list for your next post.

[Mark Dickson]

American voters obviously don't agree with you, Bruce,
thankfully.

[KM]

Bruce T. wrote:
> Where is the West?
> By Thomas Sowell
> Thursday, November 9, 2006
>
> European nations protesting Saddam Hussein's death sentence, as they
> protested against forcing secrets out of captured terrorists, should
> tell us all we need to know about the internal degeneration of western
> society, where so many confuse squeamishness with morality.
>
> Two generations of being insulated from the reality of the
> international jungle, of not having to defend their own survival
> because they have been living under the protection of the American
> nuclear umbrella, have allowed too many Europeans to grow soft and
> indulge themselves in illusions about brutal realities and dangers.
>
> The very means of their salvation have been demonized for decades in
> anti-nuclear movements and protesters calling themselves "anti-war."
> But there is a huge difference between being anti-war in words and
> being anti-war in deeds.
>
> How many times, in its thousands of years of history, has Europe gone
> 60 years without a major war, as it has since World War II? That peace
> has been due to American nuclear weapons, which was all that could
> deter the Soviet Union's armies from marching right across Europe to
> the Atlantic Ocean.
>
> Having overwhelming military force on your side, and letting your
> enemies know that you have the guts to use it, is being genuinely
> anti-war. Chamberlain's appeasement brought on World War II and
> Reagan's military buildup ended the Cold War.
>
> The famous Roman peace of ancient times did not come from negotiations,
> cease-fires, or pretty talk. It came from the Roman Empire's crushing
> defeat and annihilation of Carthage, which served as a warning to
> anyone else who might have had any bright ideas about messing with
> Rome.
>
> Only after the Roman Empire began to lose its own internal cohesion,
> patriotism and fighting spirit over the centuries did it begin to
> succumb to its external enemies and finally collapse.
>
> That seems to be where western civilization is heading today.
>
> Internal cohesion? Not only does much of today's generation in western
> societies have a "do your own thing" attitude, defying rules and
> flouting authority are glorified and Balkanization through
> "multiculturalism" has become dogma.
>
> Patriotism? Not only is patriotism disdained, the very basis for pride
> in one's country and culture is systematically undermined in our
> educational institutions at all levels.
>
> The achievements of western civilization are buried in histories that
> portray every human sin found here as if they were peculiarities of the
> west.
>
> The classic example is slavery, which existed all over the world for
> thousands of years and yet is incessantly depicted as if it was a
> peculiarity of Europeans enslaving Africans. Barbary pirates alone
> brought twice as many enslaved Europeans to North Africa as there were
> Africans brought in bondage to the United States and the American
> colonies from which it was formed.
>
> How many schools and colleges are going to teach that, going against
> political correctness and undermining white guilt?
>
> How many people have any inkling that it was precisely western
> civilization which eventually turned against slavery and began stamping
> it out when non-western societies still saw nothing wrong with it?
>
> How can a generation be expected to fight for the survival of a culture
> or a civilization that has been trashed in its own institutions, taught
> to tolerate even the intolerance of other cultures brought into its own
> midst, and conditioned to regard any instinct to fight for its own
> survival as being a "cowboy"?
>
> Western nations that show any signs of standing up for
> self-preservation are rare exceptions. The United States and Israel are
> the only western nations which have no choice but to rely on
> self-defense -- and both are demonized, not only by our enemies but
> also by many in other western nations.
>
> Australia recently told its Muslim population that, if they want to
> live under Islamic law, then they should leave Australia. That makes
> three western nations that have not yet completely succumbed to the
> corrosive and suicidal trends of our times.
>
> If and when we all succumb, will the epitaph of western civilization
> say that we had the power to annihilate our enemies but were so
> paralyzed by confusion that we ended up being annihilated ourselves?
>
>
> Thomas Sowell is a senior fellow at the Hoover Institute and author of
> Basic Economics: A Citizen's Guide to the Economy.

Bruce,
Lets see now, Sowell is an Economics professor and he is doing a paper
on political science?Anyone with half a brain can see that the guy has
embelished certain truths while ignoring other truths.Anyone who would
take this at face value would have to be an ignorant white slippery
slope christian zelot.Oh, wait a minute, you are.Nevermind.